Hello,

We are having a humidity problem in our wine cellar/cold room. It is air
tight and we are having mold grow on the ends of the corks.

Do you think installing an air conditioning unit in one of the walls would
alleiviate this problem?

We suppose we would run it on a timer, on a daily basis.

The room is usually cold enough without one, except in the hot summer. And
the biggest trouble is the humidity.

Any thoughts or other ideas?

Lucy

"pianogal" > wrote:
> We are having a humidity problem in our wine cellar/cold room. It is air
> tight and we are having mold grow on the ends of the corks.
>
> Do you think installing an air conditioning unit in one of the walls would
> alleiviate this problem?
>
> We suppose we would run it on a timer, on a daily basis.
>
> The room is usually cold enough without one, except in the hot summer.
And
> the biggest trouble is the humidity.
>
> Any thoughts or other ideas?

Sounds like you need a dehumidifier, not an air-conditioner. An
air-conditioner normally takes the air from the room, refrigerates it, and
blows it back into the room. This will provide cooling, but it doesn't
remove any moisture from the air. Some air-conditioners have a setting to
bring outside air into the room, but again this will not remove the moisture
from the air in the room. You may be able to find an air-conditioner with a
built in humidifier, but the simplest thing would be to install an exhaust
fan (like that found in bathrooms which lack windows). Most air-conditioners
will not bring the room temperature below 65º without icing up (which
prevents them from cooling entirely), so you may wish to look into another
method for the summer time.

Here's some data about humidity problems:
http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/burema...bhose_ce27.cfm

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 14:03:35 -0700, "Negodki" >
wrote:

Sorry, but an air-conditioner, used as you describe, does act as a
dehumidifier. Basically, the air entering the airconditiner passes
through the evaporator and is cooled. This cooling precipitates
moisture out of the air stream. the air stream is thus cooling AND
dehumidifed.

Empirical test -- turn on air-con; watch evaporator; water drips from
evaporator.
As the only air contacting the evaporator is the air from the room
being cooled then the air-con must be extracting moisture from the
air.


>"pianogal" > wrote:
>> We are having a humidity problem in our wine cellar/cold room. It is air
>> tight and we are having mold grow on the ends of the corks.
>>
>> Do you think installing an air conditioning unit in one of the walls would
>> alleiviate this problem?
>>
>> We suppose we would run it on a timer, on a daily basis.
>>
>> The room is usually cold enough without one, except in the hot summer.
>And
>> the biggest trouble is the humidity.
>>
>> Any thoughts or other ideas?
>
>Sounds like you need a dehumidifier, not an air-conditioner. An
>air-conditioner normally takes the air from the room, refrigerates it, and
>blows it back into the room. This will provide cooling, but it doesn't
>remove any moisture from the air. Some air-conditioners have a setting to
>bring outside air into the room, but again this will not remove the moisture
>from the air in the room. You may be able to find an air-conditioner with a
>built in humidifier, but the simplest thing would be to install an exhaust
>fan (like that found in bathrooms which lack windows). Most air-conditioners
>will not bring the room temperature below 65º without icing up (which
>prevents them from cooling entirely), so you may wish to look into another
>method for the summer time.
>
>Here's some data about humidity problems:
>http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/burema...bhose_ce27.cfm
>

Cheers,

Bruce
(reply to k4556[at]inet[dot]co[dot]th)

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:07:22 +0700, Bruce > wrote:

Sorry but somehow my news reader scrambled the last message lines.
Following is corrected copy.



>
>Sorry, but an air-conditioner, used as you describe, does act as a
>dehumidifier. Basically, the air entering the airconditiner passes
>through the evaporator and is cooled. This cooling precipitates
>moisture out of the air stream. the air stream is thus cooling AND
>dehumidifed.
>
>Empirical test -- turn on air-con; watch evaporator; water drips from
>evaporator.
> As the only air contacting the evaporator is the air from the room
>being cooled then the air-con must be extracting moisture from the
>air.
>
>
>
>>"pianogal" > wrote:
>>> We are having a humidity problem in our wine cellar/cold room. It is air
>>> tight and we are having mold grow on the ends of the corks.
>>>
>>> Do you think installing an air conditioning unit in one of the walls would
>>> alleiviate this problem?
>>>
>>> We suppose we would run it on a timer, on a daily basis.
>>>
>>> The room is usually cold enough without one, except in the hot summer.
>>And
>>> the biggest trouble is the humidity.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts or other ideas?
>>
>On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 14:03:35 -0700, "Negodki" >
>wrote:
>>Sounds like you need a dehumidifier, not an air-conditioner. An
>>air-conditioner normally takes the air from the room, refrigerates it, and
>>blows it back into the room. This will provide cooling, but it doesn't
>>remove any moisture from the air. Some air-conditioners have a setting to
>>bring outside air into the room, but again this will not remove the moisture
>>from the air in the room. You may be able to find an air-conditioner with a
>>built in humidifier, but the simplest thing would be to install an exhaust
>>fan (like that found in bathrooms which lack windows). Most air-conditioners
>>will not bring the room temperature below 65º without icing up (which
>>prevents them from cooling entirely), so you may wish to look into another
>>method for the summer time.
>>
>>Here's some data about humidity problems:
>>http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/burema...bhose_ce27.cfm
>>
>
>Cheers,
>
>Bruce
>(reply to k4556[at]inet[dot]co[dot]th)

Cheers,

Bruce
(reply to k4556[at]inet[dot]co[dot]th)

Air conditioners do remove moisture from the room. Largely, the evaporator
coil is at or below the dew point for the air and as such, the moisture will
condense onto the coil surface. This is the only way that a coil will freeze
up.

Also, a properly-designed air conditioner will condition the air below 65°F
with ease. One such method for doing so is simply allow for more frequent
defrost cycles.

"Negodki" > wrote in message
...
> "pianogal" > wrote:
> > We are having a humidity problem in our wine cellar/cold room. It is
air
> > tight and we are having mold grow on the ends of the corks.
> >
> > Do you think installing an air conditioning unit in one of the walls
would
> > alleiviate this problem?
> >
> > We suppose we would run it on a timer, on a daily basis.
> >
> > The room is usually cold enough without one, except in the hot summer.
> And
> > the biggest trouble is the humidity.
> >
> > Any thoughts or other ideas?
>
> Sounds like you need a dehumidifier, not an air-conditioner. An
> air-conditioner normally takes the air from the room, refrigerates it, and
> blows it back into the room. This will provide cooling, but it doesn't
> remove any moisture from the air. Some air-conditioners have a setting to
> bring outside air into the room, but again this will not remove the
moisture
> from the air in the room. You may be able to find an air-conditioner with
a
> built in humidifier, but the simplest thing would be to install an exhaust
> fan (like that found in bathrooms which lack windows). Most
air-conditioners
> will not bring the room temperature below 65º without icing up (which
> prevents them from cooling entirely), so you may wish to look into another
> method for the summer time.
>
> Here's some data about humidity problems:
> http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/burema...bhose_ce27.cfm
>
>

Irregardless of how A/C works, if the room is cool enough as it is,
why add the cooling? Just get a dehumidifier. they are cheaper than
an a/c unit anyway. If your wine room is in the basement, it should
be easy to setup a pipe from the tub that collects the water, running
to the sump, or a floor drain or something like it. then you wouldn't
have to run downstairs to empty the dehumidifier each day.

I guess that would be the big advntage to the a/c... don't have to
empty it as it will drip outside....

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 22:25:14 -0500, "Patrick McDonald"
> wrote:

>Air conditioners do remove moisture from the room. Largely, the evaporator
>coil is at or below the dew point for the air and as such, the moisture will
>condense onto the coil surface. This is the only way that a coil will freeze
>up.
>
>Also, a properly-designed air conditioner will condition the air below 65°F
>with ease. One such method for doing so is simply allow for more frequent
>defrost cycles.
>
>"Negodki" > wrote in message
...
>> "pianogal" > wrote:
>> > We are having a humidity problem in our wine cellar/cold room. It is
>air
>> > tight and we are having mold grow on the ends of the corks.
>> >
>> > Do you think installing an air conditioning unit in one of the walls
>would
>> > alleiviate this problem?
>> >
>> > We suppose we would run it on a timer, on a daily basis.
>> >
>> > The room is usually cold enough without one, except in the hot summer.
>> And
>> > the biggest trouble is the humidity.
>> >
>> > Any thoughts or other ideas?
>>
>> Sounds like you need a dehumidifier, not an air-conditioner. An
>> air-conditioner normally takes the air from the room, refrigerates it, and
>> blows it back into the room. This will provide cooling, but it doesn't
>> remove any moisture from the air. Some air-conditioners have a setting to
>> bring outside air into the room, but again this will not remove the
>moisture
>> from the air in the room. You may be able to find an air-conditioner with
>a
>> built in humidifier, but the simplest thing would be to install an exhaust
>> fan (like that found in bathrooms which lack windows). Most
>air-conditioners
>> will not bring the room temperature below 65º without icing up (which
>> prevents them from cooling entirely), so you may wish to look into another
>> method for the summer time.
>>
>> Here's some data about humidity problems:
>> http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/burema...bhose_ce27.cfm
>>
>>
>



email: dallyn_spam at yahoo dot com
please respond in this NG so others
can share your wisdom as well!

Well,
An exhaust fan is certainly cheaper than an airconditioner.
No matter which option we choose, the wall it will be installed in will be
an inside wall.
(Since the cellar's exterior walls are 8 feet underground.)

The reason I was thinking of an airconditioner is because I wonder if a
dehumidifier would cause the overall temp in the room to increase.

Lucy


"Negodki" > wrote in message
...
> "pianogal" > wrote:
> > We are having a humidity problem in our wine cellar/cold room. It is
air
> > tight and we are having mold grow on the ends of the corks.
> >
> > Do you think installing an air conditioning unit in one of the walls
would
> > alleiviate this problem?
> >
> > We suppose we would run it on a timer, on a daily basis.
> >
> > The room is usually cold enough without one, except in the hot summer.
> And
> > the biggest trouble is the humidity.
> >
> > Any thoughts or other ideas?
>
> Sounds like you need a dehumidifier, not an air-conditioner. An
> air-conditioner normally takes the air from the room, refrigerates it, and
> blows it back into the room. This will provide cooling, but it doesn't
> remove any moisture from the air. Some air-conditioners have a setting to
> bring outside air into the room, but again this will not remove the
moisture
> from the air in the room. You may be able to find an air-conditioner with
a
> built in humidifier, but the simplest thing would be to install an exhaust
> fan (like that found in bathrooms which lack windows). Most
air-conditioners
> will not bring the room temperature below 65º without icing up (which
> prevents them from cooling entirely), so you may wish to look into another
> method for the summer time.
>
> Here's some data about humidity problems:
> http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/burema...bhose_ce27.cfm
>
>

-Hi Bruce-


An air-conditioner, used as you describe, does act as a
> dehumidifier. Basically, the air entering the airconditiner passes
> through the evaporator and is cooled. This cooling precipitates
> moisture out of the air stream. the air stream is thus cooling AND
> dehumidifed.

This is what I thought.
I want to remove moisture from the air, and not warm it up.
So an A/C seemed to make sense.

An exhaust fan might do the trick as well, but as I have to vent it to a
room in the basement, I'm worried about mustiness in the rest of the
basement.

So, now, am I better off with A/C or a dehumidifier.

The thing about a dehumidifier is that if I put in in the wine cellar, I'm
worried that it will end up heating the room.
Do you think that would be the case?

Lucy

Hi Dave,

Yes, you're right a dehumidifier is cheaper than an A/C unit.

Do you think setting a dehumidifier in the cellar would cause the overall
temp in the room to increase?
Anytime I've lived somewhere with a dehumidifier in the basement it seems to
me the unit gets fairly warm and thus might cause my wine room temp to
increase.

And, actually, the a/c would not be dripping outside, but rather into an
adjacent basement room. (The cellar exterior walls are concrete from floor
to ceiling.) So, I would still have to go empty buckets everyday anyway!!
I'm looking for the most advantageous solution for the wine, my convenience
is not an issue....except in how good the wine tastes when I uncork it!!

Thanks,
Lucy



"Dave Allyn" > wrote in message
...
> Irregardless of how A/C works, if the room is cool enough as it is,
> why add the cooling? Just get a dehumidifier. they are cheaper than
> an a/c unit anyway. If your wine room is in the basement, it should
> be easy to setup a pipe from the tub that collects the water, running
> to the sump, or a floor drain or something like it. then you wouldn't
> have to run downstairs to empty the dehumidifier each day.
>
> I guess that would be the big advntage to the a/c... don't have to
> empty it as it will drip outside....
>
> On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 22:25:14 -0500, "Patrick McDonald"
> > wrote:
>
> >Air conditioners do remove moisture from the room. Largely, the
evaporator
> >coil is at or below the dew point for the air and as such, the moisture
will
> >condense onto the coil surface. This is the only way that a coil will
freeze
> >up.
> >
> >Also, a properly-designed air conditioner will condition the air below
65°F
> >with ease. One such method for doing so is simply allow for more frequent
> >defrost cycles.
> >
> >"Negodki" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> "pianogal" > wrote:
> >> > We are having a humidity problem in our wine cellar/cold room. It is
> >air
> >> > tight and we are having mold grow on the ends of the corks.
> >> >
> >> > Do you think installing an air conditioning unit in one of the walls
> >would
> >> > alleiviate this problem?
> >> >
> >> > We suppose we would run it on a timer, on a daily basis.
> >> >
> >> > The room is usually cold enough without one, except in the hot
summer.
> >> And
> >> > the biggest trouble is the humidity.
> >> >
> >> > Any thoughts or other ideas?
> >>
> >> Sounds like you need a dehumidifier, not an air-conditioner. An
> >> air-conditioner normally takes the air from the room, refrigerates it,
and
> >> blows it back into the room. This will provide cooling, but it doesn't
> >> remove any moisture from the air. Some air-conditioners have a setting
to
> >> bring outside air into the room, but again this will not remove the
> >moisture
> >> from the air in the room. You may be able to find an air-conditioner
with
> >a
> >> built in humidifier, but the simplest thing would be to install an
exhaust
> >> fan (like that found in bathrooms which lack windows). Most
> >air-conditioners
> >> will not bring the room temperature below 65º without icing up (which
> >> prevents them from cooling entirely), so you may wish to look into
another
> >> method for the summer time.
> >>
> >> Here's some data about humidity problems:
> >> http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/burema...bhose_ce27.cfm
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
> email: dallyn_spam at yahoo dot com
> please respond in this NG so others
> can share your wisdom as well!

The "dehumidification" capabilities of a standard a/c unit are dependent on
ambient temperature and dewpoint. They do not always remove moisture from
the air. But, regardless, a properly-vented wall fan will remove
significantly more moisture at less expense.

If the cellar is already at the required temperature, the air-conditioner
unit (I presume we are talking about a window/wall unit) will be running on
fan-only. There will be no condensation on the evaporator fins or coils, and
thus there will be no dehumidification. The a/c unit _may_ help in the
summer, but not in the winter.

You can get a 5000 btu a/c unit at Home Depot or Walmart for less than $100.
But it is the cost of operation that is significant.

The a/c unit will give off considerable heat (in back), and any condensation
(that is not recirculated by the fan) dripping will tend to humidify the
cellar room next door, which will find it's way back into the room you are
cooling/dehumidifying. Some form of venting system would be advisable.

I guess none of the a/c's sold around here are "properly-designed", because
they will NOT go below 65°F in the summer time without frosting up. They
don't seem to have adjustable defrost cycles. Of course, now that it is 40ºF
outside, the a/c has managed to reduce the temperature to 62ºF, but a
partially open window would do better.

Lucy,
A dehumidifier uses the same componentry as an air conditioner but with a
highly wettable evaporator coil to entrain the ambient grains of moisture.
The heat issue you bring up with a dehumidifier exists with a window RAC
(room air conditioner) BUT exhausts it "outside". In your case, outside is
simply another cellar room.

A wall-mounted fan exhausting to another room or outside will not reduce
humidity to the same level as a dehumidifier but will help somewhat.

The most straight-forward answer is to lead you to a commercial or
residential salesperson for Trane, Carrier or other company making home A/C.
They have canned load calculation software that can answer your questions. A
good and fair rep. will also model the fan and dehumidifier case but I am
sure they will lead you to believe you must have an A/C unit. Just try to
contact one and pump them for information.

Patrick
"pianogal" > wrote in message
...
> Well,
> An exhaust fan is certainly cheaper than an airconditioner.
> No matter which option we choose, the wall it will be installed in will be
> an inside wall.
> (Since the cellar's exterior walls are 8 feet underground.)
>
> The reason I was thinking of an airconditioner is because I wonder if a
> dehumidifier would cause the overall temp in the room to increase.
>
> Lucy
>
>
> "Negodki" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "pianogal" > wrote:
> > > We are having a humidity problem in our wine cellar/cold room. It is
> air
> > > tight and we are having mold grow on the ends of the corks.
> > >
> > > Do you think installing an air conditioning unit in one of the walls
> would
> > > alleiviate this problem?
> > >
> > > We suppose we would run it on a timer, on a daily basis.
> > >
> > > The room is usually cold enough without one, except in the hot summer.
> > And
> > > the biggest trouble is the humidity.
> > >
> > > Any thoughts or other ideas?
> >
> > Sounds like you need a dehumidifier, not an air-conditioner. An
> > air-conditioner normally takes the air from the room, refrigerates it,
and
> > blows it back into the room. This will provide cooling, but it doesn't
> > remove any moisture from the air. Some air-conditioners have a setting
to
> > bring outside air into the room, but again this will not remove the
> moisture
> > from the air in the room. You may be able to find an air-conditioner
with
> a
> > built in humidifier, but the simplest thing would be to install an
exhaust
> > fan (like that found in bathrooms which lack windows). Most
> air-conditioners
> > will not bring the room temperature below 65º without icing up (which
> > prevents them from cooling entirely), so you may wish to look into
another
> > method for the summer time.
> >
> > Here's some data about humidity problems:
> > http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/burema...bhose_ce27.cfm
> >
> >
>
>

If it was me, I would do the dehumidifier. I can't see it heating the
room that much assuming you have it sized correctly. Don't get one
that is way over sized. I don't know how big your wine room is, but a
small DH should do the trick.

Another option is using a DH indirectly. Do you seal up your wine
room? if not, put the DH in the next room. it will pull the moisture
out of that room, and the surrounding rooms as well....

Just a thought. I know a/c puts out alot more heat off the back side
than a DH does....

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:57:52 -0400, "pianogal"
> wrote:

>Hi Dave,
>
>Yes, you're right a dehumidifier is cheaper than an A/C unit.
>
>Do you think setting a dehumidifier in the cellar would cause the overall
>temp in the room to increase?
>Anytime I've lived somewhere with a dehumidifier in the basement it seems to
>me the unit gets fairly warm and thus might cause my wine room temp to
>increase.
>
>And, actually, the a/c would not be dripping outside, but rather into an
>adjacent basement room. (The cellar exterior walls are concrete from floor
>to ceiling.) So, I would still have to go empty buckets everyday anyway!!
>I'm looking for the most advantageous solution for the wine, my convenience
>is not an issue....except in how good the wine tastes when I uncork it!!
>
>Thanks,
>Lucy
>
>
>
>"Dave Allyn" > wrote in message
.. .
>> Irregardless of how A/C works, if the room is cool enough as it is,
>> why add the cooling? Just get a dehumidifier. they are cheaper than
>> an a/c unit anyway. If your wine room is in the basement, it should
>> be easy to setup a pipe from the tub that collects the water, running
>> to the sump, or a floor drain or something like it. then you wouldn't
>> have to run downstairs to empty the dehumidifier each day.
>>
>> I guess that would be the big advntage to the a/c... don't have to
>> empty it as it will drip outside....
>>
>> On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 22:25:14 -0500, "Patrick McDonald"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >Air conditioners do remove moisture from the room. Largely, the
>evaporator
>> >coil is at or below the dew point for the air and as such, the moisture
>will
>> >condense onto the coil surface. This is the only way that a coil will
>freeze
>> >up.
>> >
>> >Also, a properly-designed air conditioner will condition the air below
>65°F
>> >with ease. One such method for doing so is simply allow for more frequent
>> >defrost cycles.
>> >
>> >"Negodki" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> "pianogal" > wrote:
>> >> > We are having a humidity problem in our wine cellar/cold room. It is
>> >air
>> >> > tight and we are having mold grow on the ends of the corks.
>> >> >
>> >> > Do you think installing an air conditioning unit in one of the walls
>> >would
>> >> > alleiviate this problem?
>> >> >
>> >> > We suppose we would run it on a timer, on a daily basis.
>> >> >
>> >> > The room is usually cold enough without one, except in the hot
>summer.
>> >> And
>> >> > the biggest trouble is the humidity.
>> >> >
>> >> > Any thoughts or other ideas?
>> >>
>> >> Sounds like you need a dehumidifier, not an air-conditioner. An
>> >> air-conditioner normally takes the air from the room, refrigerates it,
>and
>> >> blows it back into the room. This will provide cooling, but it doesn't
>> >> remove any moisture from the air. Some air-conditioners have a setting
>to
>> >> bring outside air into the room, but again this will not remove the
>> >moisture
>> >> from the air in the room. You may be able to find an air-conditioner
>with
>> >a
>> >> built in humidifier, but the simplest thing would be to install an
>exhaust
>> >> fan (like that found in bathrooms which lack windows). Most
>> >air-conditioners
>> >> will not bring the room temperature below 65º without icing up (which
>> >> prevents them from cooling entirely), so you may wish to look into
>another
>> >> method for the summer time.
>> >>
>> >> Here's some data about humidity problems:
>> >> http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/burema...bhose_ce27.cfm
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> email: dallyn_spam at yahoo dot com
>> please respond in this NG so others
>> can share your wisdom as well!
>



email: dallyn_spam at yahoo dot com
please respond in this NG so others
can share your wisdom as well!

Lucy
With all due respect, both air conditioners and dehumidifiers use
energy and create waste heat that you will have to get rid of somehow.
A dehumidifier would cause temperature variations in the wine room as
it cycled, the air conditioner would pump heat into the rest of the
basement.

It may be better to find the source of the dampness; it may be that
your rain gutters are not working correctly if you have them. If the
walls are made of block, some homeowners poke holes in the bottom of
the block and build a drip tray around the walls to catch any water
and drain it to a low point or sump pump. The better way is to break
up the floor near the wall and do all of this under the floor if
sealing the wall outside is not a good option.

The mold on the corks looks bad, but is not an issue with a proper
cork. Wines are often stored in damp caves. If mold were an issue,
we would have found that out 200 years ago. I know it sounds silly to
ignore mold growing on the cork, but it is not an issue if the cork is
sound. You just clean it off before opening.

I would fix the water problem anyway, it's not good for the
foundation.
Regards,
Joe