I have absorbed though not completely understood all of the advice I
have received on this group recently.This week (first week in July in
England) I have been hedging my 35 vines for the first time this
summer.They are on Double Guyot which involves renewal cane pruning.My
main query in my recent mails is how to prevent the mass of growth
which develops in mid summer,and so preventing air and spray get
thoroughly to all parts of the vines.Just to be sure what I mean,I
will try to explain clearly and without diagrams what the problem is.
1)The Double Guyot system,widely used in England and Europe,involves
removing most of the vines growth each winter,and leave two horizontal
rods which start near the top of the old 15" high thick base.These
rods are each about 2 foot long and stretch right and left along
wires.From each rod about 7-8 buds are selected-some buds are double
or triple and I reduce these to a single bud.
In early summer these buds break and produce rapidly growing vertical
canes.Most canes produce flower and fruit around 2 to 2.5 feet from
the ground.In addition there is vertical growth near the centre which
is used for the following year's rods.
2)Each of the vertical canes grows quickly to the top wire at 5.5
feet,when they are 'hedged'.Along these vertical canes,buds and leaves
are produced at about 6"-8" intervals,and in the angle between the
buds/leaves and the cane,sideshoots appear at 45 degrees.It is these
sideshoots that cause the problem of growth.I am never sure whether to
remove them initially in June when it is easy,or only remove the badly
placed ones later when they will inhibit grape development.
3)It does not seem clear to me whether these sideshoots have a clear
function, either to support grape development or feed next years buds
on the vertical canes chosen for next years horizontal rods.
4)On this latter point,I have noticed that my newly planted vines are
much more fruitful in their early years than later.Could this be
because when initially producing the first rod,one is encouraged to
remove sideshoots from its vertical growth-it is then bent
horizontally to produce a first (single Guyot) crop.This strongly
suggests to me that sideshoots are not required to support the next
years fruit bud development.
5)So my current thoughts are to remove sideshoots from the renewal
vertical canes,but keep them on the vertical canes carrying this years
fruit.I have seen in one article that these sideshoots should be
pruned to two leaves,which might be a compromise.

I hope I have described the problem more clearly than before,and I am
surprised that this massive growth problem created by these sideshoots
is not discussed more in the literature.
Cheers,Michael

michael wrote:

> I have absorbed though not completely understood
> all of the advice I have received on this group
> recently.This week (first week in July in
> England) I have been hedging my 35 vines for the
> first time this summer.They are on Double Guyot
> which involves renewal cane pruning.My main
> query in my recent mails is how to prevent the
> mass of growth which develops in mid summer,and
> so preventing air and spray get thoroughly to
> all parts of the vines.Just to be sure what I
> mean,I will try to explain clearly and without
> diagrams what the problem is. 1)The Double Guyot
> system,widely used in England and
> Europe,involves removing most of the vines
> growth each winter,and leave two horizontal rods
> which start near the top of the old 15" high
> thick base.These rods are each about 2 foot long
> and stretch right and left along wires.From each
> rod about 7-8 buds are selected-some buds are
> double or triple and I reduce these to a single
> bud. In early summer these buds break and
> produce rapidly growing vertical canes.Most
> canes produce flower and fruit around 2 to 2.5
> feet from the ground.In addition there is
> vertical growth near the centre which is used
> for the following year's rods. 2)Each of the
> vertical canes grows quickly to the top wire at
> 5.5 feet,when they are 'hedged'.Along these
> vertical canes,buds and leaves are produced at
> about 6"-8" intervals,and in the angle between
> the buds/leaves and the cane,sideshoots appear
> at 45 degrees.It is these sideshoots that cause
> the problem of growth.I am never sure whether to
> remove them initially in June when it is easy,or
> only remove the badly placed ones later when
> they will inhibit grape development. 3)It does
> not seem clear to me whether these sideshoots
> have a clear function, either to support grape
> development or feed next years buds on the
> vertical canes chosen for next years horizontal
> rods. 4)On this latter point,I have noticed that
> my newly planted vines are much more fruitful in
> their early years than later.Could this be
> because when initially producing the first
> rod,one is encouraged to remove sideshoots from
> its vertical growth-it is then bent horizontally
> to produce a first (single Guyot) crop.This
> strongly suggests to me that sideshoots are not
> required to support the next years fruit bud
> development. 5)So my current thoughts are to
> remove sideshoots from the renewal vertical
> canes,but keep them on the vertical canes
> carrying this years fruit.I have seen in one
> article that these sideshoots should be pruned
> to two leaves,which might be a compromise.
>
> I hope I have described the problem more clearly
> than before,and I am surprised that this massive
> growth problem created by these sideshoots is
> not discussed more in the literature.
> Cheers,Michael

Michael, I have read in the literature is the
number of leafs required to ripen fruit. It seems
that shoots of approximately 4 feet in length are
the ideal length and the ideal number of leaves.
(California trials, I believe) Longer shoots
actually seem to be detrimental to fruit quality
according to an article I read. But, like you
said, I do not know if the leaf count included
the leafs in the laterals. If my laterals are
causing shading or a dense canopy, I remove them,
otherwise I leave them. There is often articles
about research in this area and more about
viticulture research in general in the
publication "Practical Winery & Vineyard" Their
website is www.practicalwinery.com

Here is one from this link that specifically
addresses the question and it seems that it
"depends" on several factors including the vigor
of your vines, canopy shading etc etc:

http://www.practicalwinery.com/sepoct01p5.htm

On Jul 11, 5:43 am, michael > wrote:
> I have absorbed though not completely understood all of the advice I
> have received on this group recently.This week (first week in July in
> England) I have been hedging my 35 vines for the first time this
> summer.They are on Double Guyot which involves renewal cane pruning.My
> main query in my recent mails is how to prevent the mass of growth
> which develops in mid summer,and so preventing air and spray get
> thoroughly to all parts of the vines.Just to be sure what I mean,I
> will try to explain clearly and without diagrams what the problem is.
> 1)The Double Guyot system,widely used in England and Europe,involves
> removing most of the vines growth each winter,and leave two horizontal
> rods which start near the top of the old 15" high thick base.These
> rods are each about 2 foot long and stretch right and left along
> wires.From each rod about 7-8 buds are selected-some buds are double
> or triple and I reduce these to a single bud.
> In early summer these buds break and produce rapidly growing vertical
> canes.Most canes produce flower and fruit around 2 to 2.5 feet from
> the ground.In addition there is vertical growth near the centre which
> is used for the following year's rods.
> 2)Each of the vertical canes grows quickly to the top wire at 5.5
> feet,when they are 'hedged'.Along these vertical canes,buds and leaves
> are produced at about 6"-8" intervals,and in the angle between the
> buds/leaves and the cane,sideshoots appear at 45 degrees.It is these
> sideshoots that cause the problem of growth.I am never sure whether to
> remove them initially in June when it is easy,or only remove the badly
> placed ones later when they will inhibit grape development.
> 3)It does not seem clear to me whether these sideshoots have a clear
> function, either to support grape development or feed next years buds
> on the vertical canes chosen for next years horizontal rods.
> 4)On this latter point,I have noticed that my newly planted vines are
> much more fruitful in their early years than later.Could this be
> because when initially producing the first rod,one is encouraged to
> remove sideshoots from its vertical growth-it is then bent
> horizontally to produce a first (single Guyot) crop.This strongly
> suggests to me that sideshoots are not required to support the next
> years fruit bud development.
> 5)So my current thoughts are to remove sideshoots from the renewal
> vertical canes,but keep them on the vertical canes carrying this years
> fruit.I have seen in one article that these sideshoots should be
> pruned to two leaves,which might be a compromise.
>
> I hope I have described the problem more clearly than before,and I am
> surprised that this massive growth problem created by these sideshoots
> is not discussed more in the literature.
> Cheers,Michael

Michael,
Try he
http://vitfaq.vinic.com/index.htm
Joe

On 11 Jul, 13:06, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> michael wrote:
> > I have absorbed though not completely understood
> > all of the advice I have received on this group
> > recently.This week (first week in July in
> > England) I have been hedging my 35 vines for the
> > first time this summer.They are on Double Guyot
> > which involves renewal cane pruning.My main
> > query in my recent mails is how to prevent the
> > mass of growth which develops in mid summer,and
> > so preventing air and spray get thoroughly to
> > all parts of the vines.Just to be sure what I
> > mean,I will try to explain clearly and without
> > diagrams what the problem is. 1)The Double Guyot
> > system,widely used in England and
> > Europe,involves removing most of the vines
> > growth each winter,and leave two horizontal rods
> > which start near the top of the old 15" high
> > thick base.These rods are each about 2 foot long
> > and stretch right and left along wires.From each
> > rod about 7-8 buds are selected-some buds are
> > double or triple and I reduce these to a single
> > bud. In early summer these buds break and
> > produce rapidly growing vertical canes.Most
> > canes produce flower and fruit around 2 to 2.5
> > feet from the ground.In addition there is
> > vertical growth near the centre which is used
> > for the following year's rods. 2)Each of the
> > vertical canes grows quickly to the top wire at
> > 5.5 feet,when they are 'hedged'.Along these
> > vertical canes,buds and leaves are produced at
> > about 6"-8" intervals,and in the angle between
> > the buds/leaves and the cane,sideshoots appear
> > at 45 degrees.It is these sideshoots that cause
> > the problem of growth.I am never sure whether to
> > remove them initially in June when it is easy,or
> > only remove the badly placed ones later when
> > they will inhibit grape development. 3)It does
> > not seem clear to me whether these sideshoots
> > have a clear function, either to support grape
> > development or feed next years buds on the
> > vertical canes chosen for next years horizontal
> > rods. 4)On this latter point,I have noticed that
> > my newly planted vines are much more fruitful in
> > their early years than later.Could this be
> > because when initially producing the first
> > rod,one is encouraged to remove sideshoots from
> > its vertical growth-it is then bent horizontally
> > to produce a first (single Guyot) crop.This
> > strongly suggests to me that sideshoots are not
> > required to support the next years fruit bud
> > development. 5)So my current thoughts are to
> > remove sideshoots from the renewal vertical
> > canes,but keep them on the vertical canes
> > carrying this years fruit.I have seen in one
> > article that these sideshoots should be pruned
> > to two leaves,which might be a compromise.
>
> > I hope I have described the problem more clearly
> > than before,and I am surprised that this massive
> > growth problem created by these sideshoots is
> > not discussed more in the literature.
> > Cheers,Michael
>
> Michael, I have read in the literature is the
> number of leafs required to ripen fruit. It seems
> that shoots of approximately 4 feet in length are
> the ideal length and the ideal number of leaves.
> (California trials, I believe) Longer shoots
> actually seem to be detrimental to fruit quality
> according to an article I read. *But, like you
> said, I do not know if the leaf count included
> the leafs in the laterals. *If my laterals are
> causing shading or a dense canopy, I remove them,
> otherwise I leave them. *There is often articles
> about research in this area and more about
> viticulture research in general in the
> publication "Practical Winery & Vineyard" *Their
> website iswww.practicalwinery.com
>
> Here is one from this link that specifically
> addresses the question and it seems that it
> "depends" on several factors including the vigor
> of your vines, canopy shading etc etc:
>
> http://www.practicalwinery.com/sepoct01p5.htm- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi Paul,
Thanks for that.The last pointer you gave seems
particularly useful,and I will study it carefully.It seems as though
laterals are important to help ripening of the fruit,but a balance
must be made if one gets hopeslessly congested near ripening
times.Cheers,michael

On 13 Jul, 12:16, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> On Jul 11, 5:43 am, michael > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I have absorbed though not completely understood all of the advice I
> > have received on this group recently.This week (first week in July in
> > England) I have been hedging my 35 vines for the first time this
> > summer.They are on Double Guyot which involves renewal cane pruning.My
> > main query in my recent mails is how to prevent the mass of growth
> > which develops in mid summer,and so preventing air and spray get
> > thoroughly to all parts of the vines.Just to be sure what I mean,I
> > will try to explain clearly and without diagrams what the problem is.
> > 1)The Double Guyot system,widely used in England and Europe,involves
> > removing most of the vines growth each winter,and leave two horizontal
> > rods which start near the top of the old 15" high thick base.These
> > rods are each about 2 foot long and stretch right and left along
> > wires.From each rod about 7-8 buds are selected-some buds are double
> > or triple and I reduce these to a single bud.
> > In early summer these buds break and produce rapidly growing vertical
> > canes.Most canes produce flower and fruit around 2 to 2.5 feet from
> > the ground.In addition there is vertical growth near the centre which
> > is used for the following year's rods.
> > 2)Each of the vertical canes grows quickly to the top wire at 5.5
> > feet,when they are 'hedged'.Along these vertical canes,buds and leaves
> > are produced at about 6"-8" intervals,and in the angle between the
> > buds/leaves and the cane,sideshoots appear at 45 degrees.It is these
> > sideshoots that cause the problem of growth.I am never sure whether to
> > remove them initially in June when it is easy,or only remove the badly
> > placed ones later when they will inhibit grape development.
> > 3)It does not seem clear to me whether these sideshoots have a clear
> > function, either to support grape development or feed next years buds
> > on the vertical canes chosen for next years horizontal rods.
> > 4)On this latter point,I have noticed that my newly planted vines are
> > much more fruitful in their early years than later.Could this be
> > because when initially producing the first rod,one is encouraged to
> > remove sideshoots from its vertical growth-it is then bent
> > horizontally to produce a first (single Guyot) crop.This strongly
> > suggests to me that sideshoots are not required to support the next
> > years fruit bud development.
> > 5)So my current thoughts are to remove sideshoots from the renewal
> > vertical canes,but keep them on the vertical canes carrying this years
> > fruit.I have seen in one article that these sideshoots should be
> > pruned to two leaves,which might be a compromise.
>
> > I hope I have described the problem more clearly than before,and I am
> > surprised that this massive growth problem created by these sideshoots
> > is not discussed more in the literature.
> > Cheers,Michael
>
> Michael,
> Try hehttp://vitfaq.vinic.com/index.htm
> Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks Joe.This seems a very useful site.Cheers,Michael