Me again,

How about this question? I bought a 50 L barrel a couple of years
ago. The first wine I put through was a second run on a cabernet.
Wasn't expecting much from it and that is what I got. I then put
through a cabernet (parent of the second run) and while topping up,
would leave a half bottle of wine on the shelf waiting a couple of
weeks for top up. Someone on this board told me to stop that as I was
probably oxidizing the wine in the barrel. I did stop but the wine
was pretty bad, tasted oxidized I think. I have another wine in the
barrel, a blend of Mouvrede and Cabernet that I top up carefully using
similar wine from stubbie beer bottles.

My question: Did the oxidized wine I had in that barrel damage the
barrel or will it still perform ok?

Thank for you help.

Dan

On Dec 14, 7:28 pm, " >
wrote:
> Me again,
>
> How about this question? I bought a 50 L barrel a couple of years
> ago. The first wine I put through was a second run on a cabernet.
> Wasn't expecting much from it and that is what I got. I then put
> through a cabernet (parent of the second run) and while topping up,
> would leave a half bottle of wine on the shelf waiting a couple of
> weeks for top up. Someone on this board told me to stop that as I was
> probably oxidizing the wine in the barrel. I did stop but the wine
> was pretty bad, tasted oxidized I think. I have another wine in the
> barrel, a blend of Mouvrede and Cabernet that I top up carefully using
> similar wine from stubbie beer bottles.
>
> My question: Did the oxidized wine I had in that barrel damage the
> barrel or will it still perform ok?
>
> Thank for you help.
>
> Dan

Dan,
That's kind of hard to answer. How do you maintain the barrel? Is it
ever empty? If so, was it washed and sulfured? If you washed it well
and it smelled sweet (sweet means like wine, not funky) you are
probably fine. Taste and smell your topping wine before adding it,
always.

How does the wine in the barrel look, taste and smell now? Pull out a
sample and put it in a wine glass, tilt it at a sharp angle and hold
it up to a bright light. The edges should be clear, like water.
There should be no tinge of
brown, young red wine often looks blue/purple. Now swirl it up and get
your nose in there and try to make sure there are no odd smells;
anything that seem off, try to describe. As long as it doesn't taste
like vinegar or just plain awful, don't worry much about the taste.
Reds evolve like crazy.

If it looks, smells and tastes good, it is good. Don't forget to
sulfite as necessary, barrel aged wines get more exposure to oxygen
and sometimes need a shot of sulfite for protection.

Joe

On Dec 15, 1:41 pm, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> On Dec 14, 7:28 pm, " >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Me again,
>
> > How about this question? I bought a 50 L barrel a couple of years
> > ago. The first wine I put through was a second run on a cabernet.
> > Wasn't expecting much from it and that is what I got. I then put
> > through a cabernet (parent of the second run) and while topping up,
> > would leave a half bottle of wine on the shelf waiting a couple of
> > weeks for top up. Someone on this board told me to stop that as I was
> > probably oxidizing the wine in the barrel. I did stop but the wine
> > was pretty bad, tasted oxidized I think. I have another wine in the
> > barrel, a blend of Mouvrede and Cabernet that I top up carefully using
> > similar wine from stubbie beer bottles.
>
> > My question: Did the oxidized wine I had in that barrel damage the
> > barrel or will it still perform ok?
>
> > Thank for you help.
>
> > Dan
>
> Dan,
> That's kind of hard to answer. How do you maintain the barrel? Is it
> ever empty? If so, was it washed and sulfured? If you washed it well
> and it smelled sweet (sweet means like wine, not funky) you are
> probably fine. Taste and smell your topping wine before adding it,
> always.
>
> How does the wine in the barrel look, taste and smell now? Pull out a
> sample and put it in a wine glass, tilt it at a sharp angle and hold
> it up to a bright light. The edges should be clear, like water.
> There should be no tinge of
> brown, young red wine often looks blue/purple. Now swirl it up and get
> your nose in there and try to make sure there are no odd smells;
> anything that seem off, try to describe. As long as it doesn't taste
> like vinegar or just plain awful, don't worry much about the taste.
> Reds evolve like crazy.
>
> If it looks, smells and tastes good, it is good. Don't forget to
> sulfite as necessary, barrel aged wines get more exposure to oxygen
> and sometimes need a shot of sulfite for protection.
>
> Joe

Thanks Joe,

I've got a wine in there now that isn't too bad. Lots of tannin, no
off flavors, looks clear and clean. Tastes like it will age very
well.

The barrel has never been empty after the first batch. I've been
pretty of top of sulfite, needs a little now but close to bottling,
I'll do it then.

Thanks for your comments, I think I'm in good shape. My fourth wine
will go in next week. How long to barrels last? This is a small
barrel, I might need to add chips. If so, is the hassle of barrel
aging worth it? Carbouys are pretty easy!

Dan

> I've got a wine in there now that isn't too bad. Lots of tannin, no
> off flavors, looks clear and clean. Tastes like it will age very
> well.
>
> The barrel has never been empty after the first batch. I've been
> pretty of top of sulfite, needs a little now but close to bottling,
> I'll do it then.
>
> Thanks for your comments, I think I'm in good shape. My fourth wine
> will go in next week. How long to barrels last? This is a small
> barrel, I might need to add chips. If so, is the hassle of barrel
> aging worth it? Carbouys are pretty easy!
>
> Dan

It all depends on what you want to get out to the barrel aging. You
probably don't get much in the way of oak flavor after 2 to 3 years
but that isn't the only things barrels do. There are theories about
micro oxygenation which helps reds; more than that you can get some
concentration of flavors and that is rarely a bad thing. A barrels
life is technically as long as you are willing to deal with it. You
can add chips or beans to get the oak flavors once that peters out, or
leave it in longer. It's not the same but it's all relative to a
point; if you put mediocre wine into a big money French barrel what
you will get is mediocre wine with French oak notes. If you put great
wine into a poorly built or maintained barrel you will ruin it.
Barrels are work but if they weren't worth it no one would put up with
them, they are one step below corks on the winemakers aggravation
spectrum...

Carboys are easy, agreed. I only have one barrel and it's not much to
talk about. It was badly made; never toasted. Don't EVER put good
wine in an un-toasted barrel; I'm still recovering from that fiasco.
It's full of sulfited acidulated water now. I may give it one more
shot on a second wine I made or may use it for a sherry from French
Colombard.

Joe

Joe Sallustio wrote:

>
>> I've got a wine in there now that isn't too
>> bad. Lots of tannin, no
>> off flavors, looks clear and clean. Tastes
>> like it will age very well.
>>
>> The barrel has never been empty after the first
>> batch. I've been pretty of top of sulfite,
>> needs a little now but close to bottling, I'll
>> do it then.
>>
>> Thanks for your comments, I think I'm in good
>> shape. My fourth wine
>> will go in next week. How long to barrels
>> last? This is a small
>> barrel, I might need to add chips. If so, is
>> the hassle of barrel
>> aging worth it? Carbouys are pretty easy!
>>
>> Dan
>
> It all depends on what you want to get out to
> the barrel aging. You probably don't get much
> in the way of oak flavor after 2 to 3 years
> but that isn't the only things barrels do.
> There are theories about micro oxygenation which
> helps reds; more than that you can get some
> concentration of flavors and that is rarely a
> bad thing. A barrels
> life is technically as long as you are willing
> to deal with it. You can add chips or beans to
> get the oak flavors once that peters out, or
> leave it in longer. It's not the same but it's
> all relative to a point; if you put mediocre
> wine into a big money French barrel what
> you will get is mediocre wine with French oak
> notes. If you put great wine into a poorly
> built or maintained barrel you will ruin it.
> Barrels are work but if they weren't worth it no
> one would put up with them, they are one step
> below corks on the winemakers aggravation
> spectrum...
>
> Carboys are easy, agreed. I only have one
> barrel and it's not much to
> talk about. It was badly made; never toasted.
> Don't EVER put good wine in an un-toasted
> barrel; I'm still recovering from that fiasco.
> It's full of sulfited acidulated water now. I
> may give it one more shot on a second wine I
> made or may use it for a sherry from French
> Colombard.
>
> Joe

The only thing I would add from Joe's advice is
that if you want to extend the life of a barrel,
consider putting "clean" wine into the barrel.

I do not barrel my wine until around May. By that
time most of the tartrates will have already
precipitated out in the carboys (providing you
have a cool cellar or equivalent).

Tartarates from "new" wine coat the inside of the
barrel and do not afford the wine a chance to
come into contact with the oak.

Paul E. Lehmann wrote:
> Joe Sallustio wrote:
>
>>> I've got a wine in there now that isn't too
>>> bad. Lots of tannin, no
>>> off flavors, looks clear and clean. Tastes
>>> like it will age very well.
>>>
>>> The barrel has never been empty after the first
>>> batch. I've been pretty of top of sulfite,
>>> needs a little now but close to bottling, I'll
>>> do it then.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your comments, I think I'm in good
>>> shape. My fourth wine
>>> will go in next week. How long to barrels
>>> last? This is a small
>>> barrel, I might need to add chips. If so, is
>>> the hassle of barrel
>>> aging worth it? Carbouys are pretty easy!
>>>
>>> Dan
>> It all depends on what you want to get out to
>> the barrel aging. You probably don't get much
>> in the way of oak flavor after 2 to 3 years
>> but that isn't the only things barrels do.
>> There are theories about micro oxygenation which
>> helps reds; more than that you can get some
>> concentration of flavors and that is rarely a
>> bad thing. A barrels
>> life is technically as long as you are willing
>> to deal with it. You can add chips or beans to
>> get the oak flavors once that peters out, or
>> leave it in longer. It's not the same but it's
>> all relative to a point; if you put mediocre
>> wine into a big money French barrel what
>> you will get is mediocre wine with French oak
>> notes. If you put great wine into a poorly
>> built or maintained barrel you will ruin it.
>> Barrels are work but if they weren't worth it no
>> one would put up with them, they are one step
>> below corks on the winemakers aggravation
>> spectrum...
>>
>> Carboys are easy, agreed. I only have one
>> barrel and it's not much to
>> talk about. It was badly made; never toasted.
>> Don't EVER put good wine in an un-toasted
>> barrel; I'm still recovering from that fiasco.
>> It's full of sulfited acidulated water now. I
>> may give it one more shot on a second wine I
>> made or may use it for a sherry from French
>> Colombard.
>>
>> Joe
>
> The only thing I would add from Joe's advice is
> that if you want to extend the life of a barrel,
> consider putting "clean" wine into the barrel.
>
> I do not barrel my wine until around May. By that
> time most of the tartrates will have already
> precipitated out in the carboys (providing you
> have a cool cellar or equivalent).
>
> Tartarates from "new" wine coat the inside of the
> barrel and do not afford the wine a chance to
> come into contact with the oak.

Hmmmm... and I thought the early oak contact was advantageous to sooner
aging. By waiting until spring for first oak contact, doesn't that mean
you've added another 6 months to the aging protocol to account for the
'oak integration' time?

What about removing the deposited tartrates in the spring after the cold
stabilization is complete?
You can rack the wine to another container, rinse the barrel to remove
settled lees and 'loose tartrates', then fill it with 130F-160F hot
water, soak for 15 minutes or so, followed by a good rinsing with cold
water. Let the barrel drip dry, then refill it with sulfite-adjusted
wine. The hot water short-soak seems to dissolve the precipitated
tartrates coating pretty well for me.

How much of the barrel oakiness do I lose each time I do the hot water
soak cleaning cycle? Commercial wineries do a hot water spray cleaning
of the inside of the barrels at each racking. Are they noticeably
shortening the useful oak-enhancing lifetime of the barrel when they do
that cleaning?

Gene

gene wrote:

> Paul E. Lehmann wrote:
>> Joe Sallustio wrote:
>>
>>>> I've got a wine in there now that isn't too
>>>> bad. Lots of tannin, no
>>>> off flavors, looks clear and clean. Tastes
>>>> like it will age very well.
>>>>
>>>> The barrel has never been empty after the
>>>> first
>>>> batch. I've been pretty of top of sulfite,
>>>> needs a little now but close to bottling,
>>>> I'll do it then.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your comments, I think I'm in good
>>>> shape. My fourth wine
>>>> will go in next week. How long to barrels
>>>> last? This is a small
>>>> barrel, I might need to add chips. If so, is
>>>> the hassle of barrel
>>>> aging worth it? Carbouys are pretty easy!
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>> It all depends on what you want to get out to
>>> the barrel aging. You probably don't get much
>>> in the way of oak flavor after 2 to 3 years
>>> but that isn't the only things barrels do.
>>> There are theories about micro oxygenation
>>> which helps reds; more than that you can get
>>> some concentration of flavors and that is
>>> rarely a
>>> bad thing. A barrels
>>> life is technically as long as you are willing
>>> to deal with it. You can add chips or beans
>>> to get the oak flavors once that peters out,
>>> or
>>> leave it in longer. It's not the same but
>>> it's all relative to a point; if you put
>>> mediocre wine into a big money French barrel
>>> what you will get is mediocre wine with French
>>> oak
>>> notes. If you put great wine into a poorly
>>> built or maintained barrel you will ruin it.
>>> Barrels are work but if they weren't worth it
>>> no one would put up with them, they are one
>>> step below corks on the winemakers aggravation
>>> spectrum...
>>>
>>> Carboys are easy, agreed. I only have one
>>> barrel and it's not much to
>>> talk about. It was badly made; never toasted.
>>> Don't EVER put good wine in an un-toasted
>>> barrel; I'm still recovering from that fiasco.
>>> It's full of sulfited acidulated water now. I
>>> may give it one more shot on a second wine I
>>> made or may use it for a sherry from French
>>> Colombard.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>
>> The only thing I would add from Joe's advice is
>> that if you want to extend the life of a
>> barrel, consider putting "clean" wine into the
>> barrel.
>>
>> I do not barrel my wine until around May. By
>> that time most of the tartrates will have
>> already precipitated out in the carboys
>> (providing you have a cool cellar or
>> equivalent).
>>
>> Tartarates from "new" wine coat the inside of
>> the barrel and do not afford the wine a chance
>> to come into contact with the oak.
>
> Hmmmm... and I thought the early oak contact was
> advantageous to sooner
> aging. By waiting until spring for first oak
> contact, doesn't that mean you've added another
> 6 months to the aging protocol to account for
> the 'oak integration' time?

Yes

>
> What about removing the deposited tartrates in
> the spring after the cold stabilization is
> complete? You can rack the wine to another
> container, rinse the barrel to remove settled
> lees and 'loose tartrates', then fill it with
> 130F-160F hot water, soak for 15 minutes or so,
> followed by a good rinsing with cold water. Let
> the barrel drip dry, then refill it with
> sulfite-adjusted
> wine. The hot water short-soak seems to
> dissolve the precipitated tartrates coating
> pretty well for me.

If it works well for you then I would continue.

I think the water heater of most home wine makers
would not have water in that temperature range.

>
> How much of the barrel oakiness do I lose each
> time I do the hot water
> soak cleaning cycle? Commercial wineries do a
> hot water spray cleaning
> of the inside of the barrels at each racking.

Not the one I worked at.

>
> Are they noticeably shortening the useful
> oak-enhancing lifetime of the barrel when they
> do that cleaning?

Probably so but I am no expert.

>
> Gene