All:

I am currently making a Estate Series Washington Valley Reisling white
wine & am thinking about trying to make it a bit sweeter as I prefer
sweeter wines. From what I've read the way to do it is to make a simple
syrup & they add some to the bottle when corking it. Not knowing how
sweet to make it I thought about adding varrious amounts & then marking
the bottle as to how much simple syrup was added. Then I'll be able to
tell which sweetness I prefer. Any ideas on how much to start with???
1 oz, 1 1/2 oz, 2 oz???? Or am I going about this the wrong way?? Any
help or suggestions will be appreciated,
thanks in advance......
Al

The "usual" way is to prepare the sugar syrup. Then set up about 5
glasses and pour the same amount of wine into each, say 50ml. Then add
measured amounts of the syrup to each glass in linear increments - for
example, nothing into 1st glass, 2ml into 2nd, 4ml into 3rd, ... , 8ml
into 5th. Then taste and compare and pick the 1 you like best, that
will give you the ratio of wine to syrup that you then adjust for the
size of the whole batch. For ex., if the glass with 4ml of syrup tastes
best, that's 50:4 = 12.5:1 ratio, so you'd need a litre of the syrup
for each 12.5L of wine.

That's the basic idea, you can tweak it by either using larger wine
samples or lower increments of the sugar syrup additions. You can also
do a 2 stage process where you pick 2 glasses that you like best first
and do a 2nd round of tasting with these as the "border glasses" and 3
new sample in between for better precision.

Also, depending on the strength of the syrup, you might have to do
smaller increments than full mls.

Last caveat - the balance can change over time and also your taste
preference might differ from day to day, so if you have time and a 5
gal carboy, you could actually create 5 bottle samples after the tests
)assuming you're working with 6 gals) and let them age for 1-2 months
and then compare. And then sweeten the 5 gal batch according to that
comparison. That should give you the best result but it's more labour
intensive and you need more equipment, so it might be an overkill.

Pp

On Dec 7, 9:37 am, Al Margita > wrote:
> All:
>
> I am currently making a Estate Series Washington Valley Reisling white
> wine & am thinking about trying to make it a bit sweeter as I prefer
> sweeter wines. From what I've read the way to do it is to make a simple
> syrup & they add some to the bottle when corking it. Not knowing how
> sweet to make it I thought about adding varrious amounts & then marking
> the bottle as to how much simple syrup was added. Then I'll be able to
> tell which sweetness I prefer. Any ideas on how much to start with???
> 1 oz, 1 1/2 oz, 2 oz???? Or am I going about this the wrong way?? Any
> help or suggestions will be appreciated,
> thanks in advance......
> Al

I made a Gewurztraminer early this year, and also like it a bit sweeter
than it turned out. I add about half a teaspoon of simple sugar to the
bottle after I uncork it, and it's just fine for me.
My wife likes it "as is" so I do nothing when I pop open a bottle for her.
Adding it after bottling gives you a choice of what to do when you
discover how the wine turns out after aging.


"Al Margita" > wrote in message
...
> All:
>
> I am currently making a Estate Series Washington Valley Reisling white
> wine & am thinking about trying to make it a bit sweeter as I prefer
> sweeter wines. From what I've read the way to do it is to make a simple
> syrup & they add some to the bottle when corking it. Not knowing how
> sweet to make it I thought about adding varrious amounts & then marking
> the bottle as to how much simple syrup was added. Then I'll be able to
> tell which sweetness I prefer. Any ideas on how much to start with??? 1
> oz, 1 1/2 oz, 2 oz???? Or am I going about this the wrong way?? Any
> help or suggestions will be appreciated,
> thanks in advance......
> Al

Pp's method will work just fine. One comment however is that, at least in
my opinion, as wine ages and mellows the sweetness comes out more. If you
sweeten to taste when the wine is young it may be to sweet after it ages.
This is where the real art comes in. I would suggest you put in a little
less than you thing you will need. Maybe 20% less.

Also, this is a great place to get your good buddies involved. Invite some
friends over and let them rate the different sweetness levels. You will all
have a great time. The will feel honored that you value their judgement.
And when they go home you can throw away thier evluations and make it the
way you like best. ;o)

Remember that a sweeter wine requires more acid and maybe more tanin to
balance it. If it tastes flat after you get it to the sweetness you like,
do not hesitate to add a tiny bit of acid to brighten it or a little tannin
to give it a bit of bite.

Ray

"pp" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The "usual" way is to prepare the sugar syrup. Then set up about 5
> glasses and pour the same amount of wine into each, say 50ml. Then add
> measured amounts of the syrup to each glass in linear increments - for
> example, nothing into 1st glass, 2ml into 2nd, 4ml into 3rd, ... , 8ml
> into 5th. Then taste and compare and pick the 1 you like best, that
> will give you the ratio of wine to syrup that you then adjust for the
> size of the whole batch. For ex., if the glass with 4ml of syrup tastes
> best, that's 50:4 = 12.5:1 ratio, so you'd need a litre of the syrup
> for each 12.5L of wine.
>
> That's the basic idea, you can tweak it by either using larger wine
> samples or lower increments of the sugar syrup additions. You can also
> do a 2 stage process where you pick 2 glasses that you like best first
> and do a 2nd round of tasting with these as the "border glasses" and 3
> new sample in between for better precision.
>
> Also, depending on the strength of the syrup, you might have to do
> smaller increments than full mls.
>
> Last caveat - the balance can change over time and also your taste
> preference might differ from day to day, so if you have time and a 5
> gal carboy, you could actually create 5 bottle samples after the tests
> )assuming you're working with 6 gals) and let them age for 1-2 months
> and then compare. And then sweeten the 5 gal batch according to that
> comparison. That should give you the best result but it's more labour
> intensive and you need more equipment, so it might be an overkill.
>
> Pp
>
> On Dec 7, 9:37 am, Al Margita > wrote:
>> All:
>>
>> I am currently making a Estate Series Washington Valley Reisling white
>> wine & am thinking about trying to make it a bit sweeter as I prefer
>> sweeter wines. From what I've read the way to do it is to make a simple
>> syrup & they add some to the bottle when corking it. Not knowing how
>> sweet to make it I thought about adding varrious amounts & then marking
>> the bottle as to how much simple syrup was added. Then I'll be able to
>> tell which sweetness I prefer. Any ideas on how much to start with???
>> 1 oz, 1 1/2 oz, 2 oz???? Or am I going about this the wrong way?? Any
>> help or suggestions will be appreciated,
>> thanks in advance......
>> Al
>

i've waited 6 weeks (i'm slow & lazy) before bottling after using
sparkalloid & i still got floculates. However, the finished product was
extremely clear. there's only a ring of sludge on the bottom of those
bottles, and no one has complained: they assume it's part of the homemade
charm!


"Al Margita" > wrote in message
...
> All:
>
> I am currently making a Estate Series Washington Valley Reisling white
> wine & am thinking about trying to make it a bit sweeter as I prefer
> sweeter wines. From what I've read the way to do it is to make a simple
> syrup & they add some to the bottle when corking it. Not knowing how
> sweet to make it I thought about adding varrious amounts & then marking
> the bottle as to how much simple syrup was added. Then I'll be able to
> tell which sweetness I prefer. Any ideas on how much to start with??? 1
> oz, 1 1/2 oz, 2 oz???? Or am I going about this the wrong way?? Any
> help or suggestions will be appreciated,
> thanks in advance......
> Al

I'm actually considering not using sorbate anymore and seeing what
happens with my Boun Vino on the sterile filters. Technically it
shouldn't work, but the more I make these the more I agree with Tom S
that sorbate is just not the right way to go.

Joe

Joe Sallustio wrote "I'm actually considering not using sorbate anymore and
seeing what
> happens with my Boun Vino on the sterile filters. Technically it
> shouldn't work, but the more I make these the more I agree with Tom S
> that sorbate is just not the right way to go.

Sounds like a good move Joe. My taster isn't what it used to be but I
always can taste sorbate in sweetened wines. I have Presque Isle's
cartridge filtration system and use 1.0 and .02 micron cartridges. Since
you can't be sure downstream wine from the filter is sterile I've always
added sorbate to sweetened wines even tho. I filter. I'm buying a 0.45
micron cartridge to use for sweetened wines next time I make one. From what
I read 0.45 will remove yeast. Also, by the time we sweeten and bottle
wines almost all yeast will be gone. Just watch...I'll probably make bottle
bombs.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

William Frazier wrote:
> Joe Sallustio wrote "I'm actually considering not using sorbate anymore and
> seeing what
>
>>happens with my Boun Vino on the sterile filters. Technically it
>>shouldn't work, but the more I make these the more I agree with Tom S
>>that sorbate is just not the right way to go.
>
>
> Sounds like a good move Joe. My taster isn't what it used to be but I
> always can taste sorbate in sweetened wines. I have Presque Isle's
> cartridge filtration system and use 1.0 and .02 micron cartridges. Since
> you can't be sure downstream wine from the filter is sterile I've always
> added sorbate to sweetened wines even tho. I filter. I'm buying a 0.45
> micron cartridge to use for sweetened wines next time I make one. From what
> I read 0.45 will remove yeast. Also, by the time we sweeten and bottle
> wines almost all yeast will be gone. Just watch...I'll probably make bottle
> bombs.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas USA
>
>

Bill, Joe,

I've given up on sorbate too, because of the taste.
I researched commercial preservatives a bit and came up with Benzoate,
which is quite safe and as tasteless as you're gonna find, even as a
stock solution. Since it's found naturally at high concentrations in
several fruits, e.g. blueberries, it comes close to a natural
preservative too. Also quite inexpensive. It's prohibited to commercial
winemakers, and I seem to recall that there's some question of its
interaction with citric acid, but those won't concern most home winemakers.
Currently I'm testing it at 250 ppm in a small batch of sweet reserve
Vignoles-Traminette. There's been no sign of renewed fermentation over a
couple of months, but I'll give it more time and post tasting
observations at a later time.

Mike

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I am not supporting the idea of bottling sweet wines without steril
filtering or using sorbate, BUT, here is something that might work.

First do any fining or whatever to be sure that it is crystal clear. Then
cool the wine down to a level that will definately stop all yeast. This is
a good time of year for this. Then put it in a place from which you can
rack without moving it and let it set for long enough to be sure it is not
starting to ferment again and be sure that it is crystal clear. During this
time, be sure to turn the carboy sharply several times to be sure nothing
clings to the sides of the carboy. At this point all the yeast, live or
dead should be on the bottom. Now rack and bottle being careful not to
disturb the bottom, even if little or no sediment is visible, and only run
the racking cane dow 3/4's of the way. What you bottle should be fairly
safe. Now you can bottle the rest or move it to a smaller carboy. If you
bottle it, mark it for early consumption.

Ray

"William Frazier" > wrote in message
...
>
> Joe Sallustio wrote "I'm actually considering not using sorbate anymore
> and seeing what
>> happens with my Boun Vino on the sterile filters. Technically it
>> shouldn't work, but the more I make these the more I agree with Tom S
>> that sorbate is just not the right way to go.
>
> Sounds like a good move Joe. My taster isn't what it used to be but I
> always can taste sorbate in sweetened wines. I have Presque Isle's
> cartridge filtration system and use 1.0 and .02 micron cartridges. Since
> you can't be sure downstream wine from the filter is sterile I've always
> added sorbate to sweetened wines even tho. I filter. I'm buying a 0.45
> micron cartridge to use for sweetened wines next time I make one. From
> what I read 0.45 will remove yeast. Also, by the time we sweeten and
> bottle wines almost all yeast will be gone. Just watch...I'll probably
> make bottle bombs.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas USA
>
>

"Mike McGeough" > wrote in message
...
>
>and came up with Benzoate, Currently I'm testing it at 250 ppm

Hi Mike

Potassium or Sodium Benzoate ?? Where did you get it ??

Frederick

frederick ploegman wrote:
> Hi Mike
>
> Potassium or Sodium Benzoate ?? Where did you get it ??
>
> Frederick
>
>
Frederick,

I was only able to find a source of Sodium Benzoate, although I would
have preferred the Potassium salt. Either way, the amount is quite low,
and, I think, negligable. I got it from:
www.chemistryconnection.net.

Any ideas on this approach?

--
Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA

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Mike:

That's a great price - the other sources I've found were at least an
order of magnitude higher, thanks for the link! I am also very
interested in this because I am sensitive to sorbate in the required
amount, hate its smell in wine yet at the same time am not ready to
take the plunge into sterile filtration.

I could not find any data on the required amount for sodium benzoate,
other than by inference from stores that offer it as a "stabilizing
tablet". Does anybody have a reference that would cover this?

Thx,

Pp

On Jan 5, 12:48 pm, Mike McGeough > wrote:
> frederick ploegman wrote:
> > Hi Mike
>
> > Potassium or Sodium Benzoate ?? Where did you get it ??
>
> > FrederickFrederick,
>
> I was only able to find a source of Sodium Benzoate, although I would
> have preferred the Potassium salt. Either way, the amount is quite low,
> and, I think, negligable. I got it from:www.chemistryconnection.net.
>
> Any ideas on this approach?
>
> --
> Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA
>
> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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pp wrote:
> Mike:
>
> That's a great price - the other sources I've found were at least an
> order of magnitude higher, thanks for the link! I am also very
> interested in this because I am sensitive to sorbate in the required
> amount, hate its smell in wine yet at the same time am not ready to
> take the plunge into sterile filtration.
>
> I could not find any data on the required amount for sodium benzoate,
> other than by inference from stores that offer it as a "stabilizing
> tablet". Does anybody have a reference that would cover this?
>
Pp,

At the start of this experiment, I had looked it all up and found
multiple references.(I got Google crazy one day.) IIRC, the doses
centered around 200-300ppm. That comes out to about 250mg per liter, or
1 gram per gallon, roughly. My measurements indicate that 1/4 tsp
weighs about .6 gram.

It's more effective at lower pH, so wine is well suited for its use, but
it's also used on realtively non-acidic things like fresh strawberries.

Trivial data: In England, citrus soft drinks ususlly contain between
50-100ppm; in Japan, 50-200ppm, and in the Phillipenes, 20-2,000ppm.
At pH 4.5, most foods are preserved by 1,000ppm, (which is the FDA's
limit in the US).

A typical reference: www.actahort.org/books/696/696_94.htm
--
Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA

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> First do any fining or whatever to be sure that it is crystal clear. Then
> cool the wine down to a level that will definately stop all yeast. This is
> a good time of year for this. Then put it in a place from which you can
> rack without moving it and let it set for long enough to be sure it is not
> starting to ferment again and be sure that it is crystal clear. During this
> time, be sure to turn the carboy sharply several times to be sure nothing
> clings to the sides of the carboy. At this point all the yeast, live or
> dead should be on the bottom. Now rack and bottle being careful not to
> disturb the bottom, even if little or no sediment is visible, and only run
> the racking cane dow 3/4's of the way. What you bottle should be fairly
> safe. Now you can bottle the rest or move it to a smaller carboy. If you
> bottle it, mark it for early consumption.

Ray,
Sounds interesting; I'm seriously considering building a little flash
pasteurizer after reading Bird's book. He talks about a few seconds at
150 F being good enough. I could make a little control setup and
stainless tubing heater assembly. I know it sounds crazy but I like
tinkering, it would be pretty cool if you could make one for under $150
and I think I can...

Joe

Joe Sallustio wrote:
>>First do any fining or whatever to be sure that it is crystal clear. Then
>>cool the wine down to a level that will definately stop all yeast. This is
>>a good time of year for this. Then put it in a place from which you can
>>rack without moving it and let it set for long enough to be sure it is not
>>starting to ferment again and be sure that it is crystal clear. During this
>>time, be sure to turn the carboy sharply several times to be sure nothing
>>clings to the sides of the carboy. At this point all the yeast, live or
>>dead should be on the bottom. Now rack and bottle being careful not to
>>disturb the bottom, even if little or no sediment is visible, and only run
>>the racking cane dow 3/4's of the way. What you bottle should be fairly
>>safe. Now you can bottle the rest or move it to a smaller carboy. If you
>>bottle it, mark it for early consumption.
>
>
> Ray,
> Sounds interesting; I'm seriously considering building a little flash
> pasteurizer after reading Bird's book. He talks about a few seconds at
> 150 F being good enough. I could make a little control setup and
> stainless tubing heater assembly. I know it sounds crazy but I like
> tinkering, it would be pretty cool if you could make one for under $150
> and I think I can...
>
> Joe
>

Let me know how it works, Joe. The most critical aspect of this whole
pasteurization is minimal transition times, to not get cooked flavor.
This means the flash heating isn't too hard, where most pasteurizers
have issues is on the cooling side. Do you have access to a soda
fountain 'cold block'?.... they're pretty good at taking heat out in a
hurry.

Gene

Gene,
I'll look into that cold block but for a first shot at it I was just
going to coil up some stainless tubing and make two little heat
exchangers, one in hot water at 150F, one in ice water. If it worked
any home winemaker could do it. I was considering just racking through
it, although the pressure differential of a full versus mostly empty
carboy requires consideration. It sounds like a decent experiment
though. I can measure the temperatures of the exchangers, I have the
hardware for that.

Joe

Great, thanks, I think I'll give it a test try this year as well.

Pp

On Jan 5, 6:39 pm, Mike McGeough > wrote:
> pp wrote:
> > Mike:
>
> > That's a great price - the other sources I've found were at least an
> > order of magnitude higher, thanks for the link! I am also very
> > interested in this because I am sensitive to sorbate in the required
> > amount, hate its smell in wine yet at the same time am not ready to
> > take the plunge into sterile filtration.
>
> > I could not find any data on the required amount for sodium benzoate,
> > other than by inference from stores that offer it as a "stabilizing
> > tablet". Does anybody have a reference that would cover this?Pp,
>
> At the start of this experiment, I had looked it all up and found
> multiple references.(I got Google crazy one day.) IIRC, the doses
> centered around 200-300ppm. That comes out to about 250mg per liter, or
> 1 gram per gallon, roughly. My measurements indicate that 1/4 tsp
> weighs about .6 gram.
>
> It's more effective at lower pH, so wine is well suited for its use, but
> it's also used on realtively non-acidic things like fresh strawberries.
>
> Trivial data: In England, citrus soft drinks ususlly contain between
> 50-100ppm; in Japan, 50-200ppm, and in the Phillipenes, 20-2,000ppm.
> At pH 4.5, most foods are preserved by 1,000ppm, (which is the FDA's
> limit in the US).
>
> A typical reference: www.actahort.org/books/696/696_94.htm
> --
> Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA
>
> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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Joe Sallustio wrote:

> Gene,
> I'll look into that cold block but for a first shot at it I was just
> going to coil up some stainless tubing and make two little heat
> exchangers, one in hot water at 150F, one in ice water. If it worked
> any home winemaker could do it. I was considering just racking through
> it, although the pressure differential of a full versus mostly empty
> carboy requires consideration. It sounds like a decent experiment
> though. I can measure the temperatures of the exchangers, I have the
> hardware for that.
>
> Joe
>
Your SS tubing will probably work fine. The cold block just has
additional thermal mass which helps for short bursts of cooling. Not
sure how much that extra mass will benefit you when running 5 gallons
through. The SS tubing might even be better in that case, come to think
of it.

A tip from making ice cream.... You might want to throw some salt
(10-20 percent by weight) in your ice water to make your cold side
colder, and mostly ice... just enough water to make slushy. You can get
the ice solution down to low 20's (F) with salt to lower the freezing
point depression at around 20% salt by weight. I know some people who
cold stabilize their wine by immersing SS kegs of wine (or mostly
immersing carboy) into salted ice slush at 27F using about 12 wt% salt.
Just keep the salt away from your wine.

How high can you lift the carboy? 3-4 feet of additional head may give
just the pressure you need. An A frame and a come-along or else an
engine cherry picker might do the trick.

Gene

Back to the dosage - everything that I found for home wine specified 1
stabilizing tablet per gallon, and 1 online store listed the content of
the tablet as 250mg sodium benzoate, so that would give 250ppm per
gallon, or about 65-70ppm per liter. I didn't get to read the full text
of the doc from your link, but form the abstract it looked like they
were using the benzoate during active fermentation instead of before
bottling and for a different purpose than stabilizing?

I've got some on the way from eBay so will do some lower dosage tests
as well.

Pp

On Jan 5, 6:39 pm, Mike McGeough > wrote:
> pp wrote:
>
> At the start of this experiment, I had looked it all up and found
> multiple references.(I got Google crazy one day.) IIRC, the doses
> centered around 200-300ppm. That comes out to about 250mg per liter, or
> 1 gram per gallon, roughly. My measurements indicate that 1/4 tsp
> weighs about .6 gram.
>
> It's more effective at lower pH, so wine is well suited for its use, but
> it's also used on realtively non-acidic things like fresh strawberries.
>
> Trivial data: In England, citrus soft drinks ususlly contain between
> 50-100ppm; in Japan, 50-200ppm, and in the Phillipenes, 20-2,000ppm.
> At pH 4.5, most foods are preserved by 1,000ppm, (which is the FDA's
> limit in the US).
>
> A typical reference: www.actahort.org/books/696/696_94.htm
> --
> Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA
>
> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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PP,

I see what you're saying. The beverage industry speaks of 250 mg per
liter, while the hobby wine industry speaks of 250 mg per gallon, about
1/4 the amount. Unfortunately I can't find references for commercial
wine stabilization, since Benzoate isn't allowed in commercial wines,
which is odd, as it's the safest stuff around.

I know empirically that 250 mg per liter is effective & tasteless in my
sweetened '04 Vignoles-St.Pepin, but I suppose I should also try it at
250 mg per gallon. Perhaps I'll start a gallon of sugar wine and see if
1/4 g of Benzoate can stop it.
--
Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA

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> How high can you lift the carboy? 3-4 feet of additional head may give
> just the pressure you need. An A frame and a come-along or else an
> engine cherry picker might do the trick.


Thanks Gene; I have a decent height.

I'm going to measure the flow on my next bottling day. I'll measure
the first, 13t'h and 25th to see what the rates are.

I'll base the calculations on that.

Joe

Hi Mike

Years ago I got some Sodium Benzoate "pills" as a substitute item on
one of my orders. Only instructions were one pill per gallon. At the
time I was doing a long series of little one gallon "test" batches so I
added that to my list.

Long story short, I ended up using it on 30 plus (33?) batches with
never a problem. HTH

Frederick


"Mike McGeough" > wrote in message
...
> frederick ploegman wrote:
>> Hi Mike
>>
>> Potassium or Sodium Benzoate ?? Where did you get it ??
>>
>> Frederick
> Frederick,
>
> I was only able to find a source of Sodium Benzoate, although I would have
> preferred the Potassium salt. Either way, the amount is quite low, and, I
> think, negligable. I got it from:
> www.chemistryconnection.net.
>
> Any ideas on this approach?
>
> --
> Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA
>
> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
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