Hello all.

I've made wine from grapes for 5 years with the last four on my own without
the aid of my former group. The wines from that first year were delectable,
balanced and aged well. Since going on my own (after fair winemaking
research and investment), my wines are not up to the level they were with my
former group.

I practice the same principles my former group did. That is, we crushed the
grapes, measured the Brix, fermented and pressed. No pH measurements but
sulfite was added at 0.25tsp per box during crush. Their wines always came
out great; why would I change the process?

Since I am now geographically separated from that group, I get my fruit from
different sources. Besides this year when I arranged our own transport for
grapes and could dictate the vineyard, our fruit took a circuitous route,
heading to Tampa, FL before making its way to Georgia. Needless to say, our
earliest fruit was 2+ weeks off the vine while the worst case... I don't
want to imagine (Zin, PN and Sangiovese have been traditionally poor - are
they typically earlier ripening?).

Let's consider the cases of only red wines from Central Valley fruit. Pinot,
Cab Sauv, Merlot, Zin, Sangiovese, Petit Sirah, etc.

My wine, since getting different fruit and NOT with the former group, has
been a mixed bag. Some varietals have turned out fine while others have
begun to "turn", oxidizing after only 1 year in carboy. I've suspected
airlocks and have ruled that out (different carboys of same varietals are
afflicted and all seals appear fine). I've ruled out sanitation practices
since I tend to be pretty anal-retentive in that area and not all of the
wines have lost their edge.

For example, my 2005 cab sauv, merlot and petit sirah blend is astounding in
bottle! My 2005 sangiovese which has not yet left the carboy is browning and
is beginning to turn to sherry, not quite vinegar.

I've begun to strongly question the fruit we had in the past as well as the
fact that I've not measured and adjusted pH. I know there's a strong
correlation between pH and ageing potential - don't need a lecture there. I
guess what I could be educated about is whether I should really expect a
wine to oxidize after only 1 year and that 1 year being spent in carboy,
largely undisturbed except for racking (where I was typically adding
0.125tsp KSO2 except with H2S issues). Granted, I've not been proper in
testing for free SO2 and adjusting, but that amount of sulfite is generally
attributed to ~20ppm but I accept there are huge variances with this gross
generalization, unless 0.125tsp can be akin to having zero.

Let me boil the question down again.

Assuming 0.125tsp pot. met. every other racking, an unknown pH and fruit
that was off the vine too long, what do you suspect my oxidation problem
could be? I prefer to not be berated with "you need to measure this and
adjust that" because I intend to do just that with the 2007 vintage (my
former group got fruit less than a week off the vine; is that why they fared
better?). I strongly suspect poor fruit because, frankly, these wines are
starting to taste like thin vinsantos which I understand are made from
partially dried grapes.

Please offer your thoughts and suggestions. Starting in 2006 I am working
with a new vineyard and have trucked my shipment out directly, paying dearly
for the privilege. Thus, I am expecting (hoping?) the 2006 vintage to be
light years ahead of what's been going on 2003-2005. If your belief is that
fruit is the big culprit, I've taken the steps to avoid this in the future.
If otherwise, besides measuring and adjusting pH, I have a lot more work
ahead of me.

Sorry for the long-winded message; it's that CS-M-PS blend typing.


Patrick McDonald

Forgot to answer some questions ahead of time...

I inoculate with cultured yeast (Barolo) and all carboys are topped up just
fine. Potential alcohols are 13-16% range.


"patrick mcdonald" > wrote in
message ...
> Hello all.
>
> I've made wine from grapes for 5 years with the last four on my own
> without the aid of my former group. The wines from that first year were
> delectable, balanced and aged well. Since going on my own (after fair
> winemaking research and investment), my wines are not up to the level they
> were with my former group.
>
> I practice the same principles my former group did. That is, we crushed
> the grapes, measured the Brix, fermented and pressed. No pH measurements
> but sulfite was added at 0.25tsp per box during crush. Their wines always
> came out great; why would I change the process?
>
> Since I am now geographically separated from that group, I get my fruit
> from different sources. Besides this year when I arranged our own
> transport for grapes and could dictate the vineyard, our fruit took a
> circuitous route, heading to Tampa, FL before making its way to Georgia.
> Needless to say, our earliest fruit was 2+ weeks off the vine while the
> worst case... I don't want to imagine (Zin, PN and Sangiovese have been
> traditionally poor - are they typically earlier ripening?).
>
> Let's consider the cases of only red wines from Central Valley fruit.
> Pinot, Cab Sauv, Merlot, Zin, Sangiovese, Petit Sirah, etc.
>
> My wine, since getting different fruit and NOT with the former group, has
> been a mixed bag. Some varietals have turned out fine while others have
> begun to "turn", oxidizing after only 1 year in carboy. I've suspected
> airlocks and have ruled that out (different carboys of same varietals are
> afflicted and all seals appear fine). I've ruled out sanitation practices
> since I tend to be pretty anal-retentive in that area and not all of the
> wines have lost their edge.
>
> For example, my 2005 cab sauv, merlot and petit sirah blend is astounding
> in bottle! My 2005 sangiovese which has not yet left the carboy is
> browning and is beginning to turn to sherry, not quite vinegar.
>
> I've begun to strongly question the fruit we had in the past as well as
> the fact that I've not measured and adjusted pH. I know there's a strong
> correlation between pH and ageing potential - don't need a lecture there.
> I guess what I could be educated about is whether I should really expect a
> wine to oxidize after only 1 year and that 1 year being spent in carboy,
> largely undisturbed except for racking (where I was typically adding
> 0.125tsp KSO2 except with H2S issues). Granted, I've not been proper in
> testing for free SO2 and adjusting, but that amount of sulfite is
> generally attributed to ~20ppm but I accept there are huge variances with
> this gross generalization, unless 0.125tsp can be akin to having zero.
>
> Let me boil the question down again.
>
> Assuming 0.125tsp pot. met. every other racking, an unknown pH and fruit
> that was off the vine too long, what do you suspect my oxidation problem
> could be? I prefer to not be berated with "you need to measure this and
> adjust that" because I intend to do just that with the 2007 vintage (my
> former group got fruit less than a week off the vine; is that why they
> fared better?). I strongly suspect poor fruit because, frankly, these
> wines are starting to taste like thin vinsantos which I understand are
> made from partially dried grapes.
>
> Please offer your thoughts and suggestions. Starting in 2006 I am working
> with a new vineyard and have trucked my shipment out directly, paying
> dearly for the privilege. Thus, I am expecting (hoping?) the 2006 vintage
> to be light years ahead of what's been going on 2003-2005. If your belief
> is that fruit is the big culprit, I've taken the steps to avoid this in
> the future. If otherwise, besides measuring and adjusting pH, I have a lot
> more work ahead of me.
>
> Sorry for the long-winded message; it's that CS-M-PS blend typing.
>
>
> Patrick McDonald
>

Hi Patrick,

I'm a total noob here myself, but I've read you need to continue to add
sulfite during each racking to keep the levels to a 'protective' zone.
I understand sulfite will dispurse with time and lose it's
effectiveness in preventing oxidation. Why one wine would be better
than the others may have to do with the shipping and need more 'help'
from the sulfite additions. So the question I would ask is how
often/much have you added sulfite since that first addition at crush.
(which gets bound up pretty quickly btw)

Regards,

Rick

patrick mcdonald wrote:
>
> Assuming 0.125tsp pot. met. every other racking, an unknown pH and fruit
> that was off the vine too long, what do you suspect my oxidation problem
> could be?

Poor fruit might be part of the issue here, but I would suspect that
your largest issue is too little sulphite. 20 ppm sulphite at every 2nd
racking probably isn't enough to protect against oxidation and spoilage
(you wrote that one wine was starting to taste like sherry?). If your
grapes are from Central Valley, they are likely to have high pH, which
will further compound your sulphite issues.

Adding 20 ppm sulphite every other racking means that to give 0.8 ppm
molecular sulphite you would have to have a pH of 3.2 (which is
unlikely). Since you add it every other racking, your are probably
spending more time down in the area of 10 ppm or less.

Might want to give this a
read:http://www.geocities.com/lumeisenman/chapt6.html

> > Assuming 0.125tsp pot. met. every other racking, an unknown pH and fruit
> > that was off the vine too long, what do you suspect my oxidation problem
> > could be?
>
> Poor fruit might be part of the issue here, but I would suspect that
> your largest issue is too little sulphite. 20 ppm sulphite at every 2nd
> racking probably isn't enough to protect against oxidation and spoilage
> (you wrote that one wine was starting to taste like sherry?). If your
> grapes are from Central Valley, they are likely to have high pH, which
> will further compound your sulphite issues.
>
> Adding 20 ppm sulphite every other racking means that to give 0.8 ppm
> molecular sulphite you would have to have a pH of 3.2 (which is
> unlikely). Since you add it every other racking, your are probably
> spending more time down in the area of 10 ppm or less.
>
> Might want to give this a
> read:http://www.geocities.com/lumeisenman/chapt6.html

I couldn't agree more. I do a lot of central valley fruit and reds are
typically no higher than 3.5 pH after a year.

I'm not sure how many racks there were but the initial dose sounded
good, Patrick. 1/4 teaspoon to no more than 3 gallons would be around
80 to 100 PPM by my guesstimate; but if the fruit was really bad that
may have been a little low. Sulfite can't fix bad fruit but it sounds
like you addressed that for next time.

I think you may be racking too much and sulfiting too little. I don't
know where you are in Georgia but in Pittsburgh PA we get over 100
truckloads of grapes in from the Central Valley. And we get truckloads
of juice too. It never takes that long to get here, our stuff arrives
in great shape.

You may want to hunt for the big fruit wholesalers in your immediate
area and see if they bring in wine grapes. I would not pay for a truck
to haul Central Valley fruit if i could avoid that, the best you will
end up with is very good table wine. (Not that that is a bad thing,
most of ours is from the central valley and we love it).

You may want to consider turning that spoiled wine into vinegar,
homemade vinegar is very good. It may be too late if it's heavily
oxidized but unless you are thinking of making some sort of port with
it it may be lost already.

You may want to consider fining it with skim milk if the oxidation is
not too advanced.

I know you said you checked your airlocks but make sure the 'sprue'
(the mold marks) is not pronounced; that sprue can cause serious
issues. I scrape all new airlocks because i had your issues early on,
it's aggravating to say the least.

Joe

Thanks for everyone's responses. I've taken them to heart and look forward
to better results from the 2006 fruit.

"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> > Assuming 0.125tsp pot. met. every other racking, an unknown pH and
>> > fruit
>> > that was off the vine too long, what do you suspect my oxidation
>> > problem
>> > could be?
>>
>> Poor fruit might be part of the issue here, but I would suspect that
>> your largest issue is too little sulphite. 20 ppm sulphite at every 2nd
>> racking probably isn't enough to protect against oxidation and spoilage
>> (you wrote that one wine was starting to taste like sherry?). If your
>> grapes are from Central Valley, they are likely to have high pH, which
>> will further compound your sulphite issues.
>>
>> Adding 20 ppm sulphite every other racking means that to give 0.8 ppm
>> molecular sulphite you would have to have a pH of 3.2 (which is
>> unlikely). Since you add it every other racking, your are probably
>> spending more time down in the area of 10 ppm or less.
>>
>> Might want to give this a
>> read:http://www.geocities.com/lumeisenman/chapt6.html
>
> I couldn't agree more. I do a lot of central valley fruit and reds are
> typically no higher than 3.5 pH after a year.
>
> I'm not sure how many racks there were but the initial dose sounded
> good, Patrick. 1/4 teaspoon to no more than 3 gallons would be around
> 80 to 100 PPM by my guesstimate; but if the fruit was really bad that
> may have been a little low. Sulfite can't fix bad fruit but it sounds
> like you addressed that for next time.
>
> I think you may be racking too much and sulfiting too little. I don't
> know where you are in Georgia but in Pittsburgh PA we get over 100
> truckloads of grapes in from the Central Valley. And we get truckloads
> of juice too. It never takes that long to get here, our stuff arrives
> in great shape.
>
> You may want to hunt for the big fruit wholesalers in your immediate
> area and see if they bring in wine grapes. I would not pay for a truck
> to haul Central Valley fruit if i could avoid that, the best you will
> end up with is very good table wine. (Not that that is a bad thing,
> most of ours is from the central valley and we love it).
>
> You may want to consider turning that spoiled wine into vinegar,
> homemade vinegar is very good. It may be too late if it's heavily
> oxidized but unless you are thinking of making some sort of port with
> it it may be lost already.
>
> You may want to consider fining it with skim milk if the oxidation is
> not too advanced.
>
> I know you said you checked your airlocks but make sure the 'sprue'
> (the mold marks) is not pronounced; that sprue can cause serious
> issues. I scrape all new airlocks because i had your issues early on,
> it's aggravating to say the least.
>
> Joe
>

Thanks for everyone's responses. I've taken them to heart and look forward
to better results from the 2006 fruit.

"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> > Assuming 0.125tsp pot. met. every other racking, an unknown pH and
>> > fruit
>> > that was off the vine too long, what do you suspect my oxidation
>> > problem
>> > could be?
>>
>> Poor fruit might be part of the issue here, but I would suspect that
>> your largest issue is too little sulphite. 20 ppm sulphite at every 2nd
>> racking probably isn't enough to protect against oxidation and spoilage
>> (you wrote that one wine was starting to taste like sherry?). If your
>> grapes are from Central Valley, they are likely to have high pH, which
>> will further compound your sulphite issues.
>>
>> Adding 20 ppm sulphite every other racking means that to give 0.8 ppm
>> molecular sulphite you would have to have a pH of 3.2 (which is
>> unlikely). Since you add it every other racking, your are probably
>> spending more time down in the area of 10 ppm or less.
>>
>> Might want to give this a
>> read:http://www.geocities.com/lumeisenman/chapt6.html
>
> I couldn't agree more. I do a lot of central valley fruit and reds are
> typically no higher than 3.5 pH after a year.
>
> I'm not sure how many racks there were but the initial dose sounded
> good, Patrick. 1/4 teaspoon to no more than 3 gallons would be around
> 80 to 100 PPM by my guesstimate; but if the fruit was really bad that
> may have been a little low. Sulfite can't fix bad fruit but it sounds
> like you addressed that for next time.
>
> I think you may be racking too much and sulfiting too little. I don't
> know where you are in Georgia but in Pittsburgh PA we get over 100
> truckloads of grapes in from the Central Valley. And we get truckloads
> of juice too. It never takes that long to get here, our stuff arrives
> in great shape.
>
> You may want to hunt for the big fruit wholesalers in your immediate
> area and see if they bring in wine grapes. I would not pay for a truck
> to haul Central Valley fruit if i could avoid that, the best you will
> end up with is very good table wine. (Not that that is a bad thing,
> most of ours is from the central valley and we love it).
>
> You may want to consider turning that spoiled wine into vinegar,
> homemade vinegar is very good. It may be too late if it's heavily
> oxidized but unless you are thinking of making some sort of port with
> it it may be lost already.
>
> You may want to consider fining it with skim milk if the oxidation is
> not too advanced.
>
> I know you said you checked your airlocks but make sure the 'sprue'
> (the mold marks) is not pronounced; that sprue can cause serious
> issues. I scrape all new airlocks because i had your issues early on,
> it's aggravating to say the least.
>
> Joe
>