Hello everyone,

Here's a question that's been bugging me. I have 200+ pounds of
excellent Pinot must ready to begin fermentation, and it occured to me
that I'm going to need to press it off the skins/seeds once primary is
complete. At present, the must is sitting in two separate plastic
fermenters.

In speaking with the owner of vineyard where I got the grapes, he said
he just uses one of the old-fashioned red-metal and wood Italian
presses. He was implying he just scoops up the wine/pomace from the vat
once primary is completed, into the fermenter, presses it and collects
the juices into a carboy, and continues until he's done.

Now. I understand that freshly-fermented wine is full of CO2, and so is
less susceptible to oxidation from this type of procedure. Still...
I've got a nagging voice at the back of my head telling me something's
awry with this method.

Can anyone please shed some light and either confirm, or correct, my
assumptions in how I"m going to have to go about pressing the juice? If
I'm wrong, I need some info as to how I *should* go about it. FYI, I
don't have any type of airtight, stainless steel press, so the
solution is going to have to be something the average home vintner
could gain access to and implement.

Thanks everyone,

David

Not to worry, just do as the owner said. Exposure to air at this stage is
ok and in fact probably beneficial.

I add one piece of advice. After setting for a day in carboy, do the first
racking to get it off the gross lees. Put the gross lees in another
container, let set another day and decant or carefully rack some clear wine
off the top and throw away the sludge.

There is no need to hurry to get off the lees that develop after this as
they will mostly contain dead yeast cells and not pulp debris. It is the
gross lees that will result in H2S problems down the road if you don't get
the wine off these early.


"David" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hello everyone,
>
> Here's a question that's been bugging me. I have 200+ pounds of
> excellent Pinot must ready to begin fermentation, and it occured to me
> that I'm going to need to press it off the skins/seeds once primary is
> complete. At present, the must is sitting in two separate plastic
> fermenters.
>
> In speaking with the owner of vineyard where I got the grapes, he said
> he just uses one of the old-fashioned red-metal and wood Italian
> presses. He was implying he just scoops up the wine/pomace from the vat
> once primary is completed, into the fermenter, presses it and collects
> the juices into a carboy, and continues until he's done.
>
> Now. I understand that freshly-fermented wine is full of CO2, and so is
> less susceptible to oxidation from this type of procedure. Still...
> I've got a nagging voice at the back of my head telling me something's
> awry with this method.
>
> Can anyone please shed some light and either confirm, or correct, my
> assumptions in how I"m going to have to go about pressing the juice? If
> I'm wrong, I need some info as to how I *should* go about it. FYI, I
> don't have any type of airtight, stainless steel press, so the
> solution is going to have to be something the average home vintner
> could gain access to and implement.
>
> Thanks everyone,
>
> David
>

I second Paul's suggestions of getting the young wine off of the gross lees
early in the secondary. I use DAP and nutrients at the beginning of primary
and have not had H2S problems at that stage - but have had them in the
secondary stage after pressing and leaving the wine in glass or stainless
for a couple weeks. So now I rack off after a few days in secondary much as
Paul suggests. So far, have avoided H2S - apparently as a result.

As for the vertical basket press - most everyone uses them because they work
fine. I wouldn't worry about the oxygen at this stage - unless you extended
the maceration and the fermentation is completely done. It is arguably even
a good thing for the fermenting wine to get that oxygen. An Australian
winemaking book I read some time back had an interesting suggestion;
apparently it is popular there to aggressively get oxygen into the primary
fermentation (removing the cap and then racking the fermenting must back
across it, bubbling, etc). Apparently they believe that more oxygen is
better during primary - rational considering that yeast need some oxygen to
do their thing.




"Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
...
> Not to worry, just do as the owner said. Exposure to air at this stage is
> ok and in fact probably beneficial.
>
> I add one piece of advice. After setting for a day in carboy, do the
> first racking to get it off the gross lees. Put the gross lees in another
> container, let set another day and decant or carefully rack some clear
> wine off the top and throw away the sludge.
>
> There is no need to hurry to get off the lees that develop after this as
> they will mostly contain dead yeast cells and not pulp debris. It is the
> gross lees that will result in H2S problems down the road if you don't get
> the wine off these early.
>
>
> "David" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> Here's a question that's been bugging me. I have 200+ pounds of
>> excellent Pinot must ready to begin fermentation, and it occured to me
>> that I'm going to need to press it off the skins/seeds once primary is
>> complete. At present, the must is sitting in two separate plastic
>> fermenters.
>>
>> In speaking with the owner of vineyard where I got the grapes, he said
>> he just uses one of the old-fashioned red-metal and wood Italian
>> presses. He was implying he just scoops up the wine/pomace from the vat
>> once primary is completed, into the fermenter, presses it and collects
>> the juices into a carboy, and continues until he's done.
>>
>> Now. I understand that freshly-fermented wine is full of CO2, and so is
>> less susceptible to oxidation from this type of procedure. Still...
>> I've got a nagging voice at the back of my head telling me something's
>> awry with this method.
>>
>> Can anyone please shed some light and either confirm, or correct, my
>> assumptions in how I"m going to have to go about pressing the juice? If
>> I'm wrong, I need some info as to how I *should* go about it. FYI, I
>> don't have any type of airtight, stainless steel press, so the
>> solution is going to have to be something the average home vintner
>> could gain access to and implement.
>>
>> Thanks everyone,
>>
>> David
>>
>
>

Dave,

As Paul says, pressing normally won't affect wine.. I wouldn't add any
Potassium Metabisulphite to must or wash down press with a strong mixture
without washing it off press first either.. May slow or stop fermentations
prematurely.. As long as press reasonably clean, not a problem.. Lots of
choices to do that.

Paul,

Never heard of racking off lees/sediment after a day with red wines.
Interesting.. Have to think about that.. My routine has been to press into
5 gal marked plastic buckets. So that I can keep tract of amount of free
run vs pressed juice to balance/separate, etc. and then to pour into carboys
through a screened funnel. My understanding is MLF may need some of the
lees and that lees also add to the wine so haven't racked off them the next
day. I also know that weight of lees may cause dead yeast cells to rupture.
So I smell and stir juice and monitor pH every two weeks during resting, sur
lie, period. Six weeks after fermentation, I'll test sugar level with
clinitest tablet to find out how dry wine is, just for curiosity only, and
chromotography test to make sure malolactic fermentation is complete. If
done, I'll measure acid, pH and adjust with tartaric if necessary, add 120%
of asceptic level of SO2 and any oak additions into clean carboys and rack
the wine off the lees and yeast. Sounds like your approach may take some
of the H2S risk out of resting the wine during 6 to 8 weeks after
fermentation and probably not impact the benefits of lees in wine during
that period. Probably enough left after racking next day to still do the
job..

Jim


"Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
...
> Not to worry, just do as the owner said. Exposure to air at this stage is
> ok and in fact probably beneficial.
>
> I add one piece of advice. After setting for a day in carboy, do the
first
> racking to get it off the gross lees. Put the gross lees in another
> container, let set another day and decant or carefully rack some clear
wine
> off the top and throw away the sludge.
>
> There is no need to hurry to get off the lees that develop after this as
> they will mostly contain dead yeast cells and not pulp debris. It is the
> gross lees that will result in H2S problems down the road if you don't get
> the wine off these early.
>
>
> "David" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > Here's a question that's been bugging me. I have 200+ pounds of
> > excellent Pinot must ready to begin fermentation, and it occured to me
> > that I'm going to need to press it off the skins/seeds once primary is
> > complete. At present, the must is sitting in two separate plastic
> > fermenters.
> >
> > In speaking with the owner of vineyard where I got the grapes, he said
> > he just uses one of the old-fashioned red-metal and wood Italian
> > presses. He was implying he just scoops up the wine/pomace from the vat
> > once primary is completed, into the fermenter, presses it and collects
> > the juices into a carboy, and continues until he's done.
> >
> > Now. I understand that freshly-fermented wine is full of CO2, and so is
> > less susceptible to oxidation from this type of procedure. Still...
> > I've got a nagging voice at the back of my head telling me something's
> > awry with this method.
> >
> > Can anyone please shed some light and either confirm, or correct, my
> > assumptions in how I"m going to have to go about pressing the juice? If
> > I'm wrong, I need some info as to how I *should* go about it. FYI, I
> > don't have any type of airtight, stainless steel press, so the
> > solution is going to have to be something the average home vintner
> > could gain access to and implement.
> >
> > Thanks everyone,
> >
> > David
> >
>
>

> Not to worry, just do as the owner said. Exposure to air at this stage is
> ok and in fact probably beneficial.
>
> I add one piece of advice. After setting for a day in carboy, do the first
> racking to get it off the gross lees. Put the gross lees in another
> container, let set another day and decant or carefully rack some clear wine
> off the top and throw away the sludge.
>
> There is no need to hurry to get off the lees that develop after this as
> they will mostly contain dead yeast cells and not pulp debris. It is the
> gross lees that will result in H2S problems down the road if you don't get
> the wine off these early.

Excellent, thanks so much for this info.

One thing I hadn't considered is that I'll be siphoning off quite a bit
of free-run juice into a carboy before pressing. I'm wondering if you
happen to know about what % of run-off I might anticipate before having
to press the remainder. Nothing scientific, I'm just curious about a
rough figure. Understood different varietals and soaks result in
different mixtures which will free-run better or worse than Pinot Noir.

Thanks,

David

"David" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Not to worry, just do as the owner said. Exposure to air at this stage
>> is
>> ok and in fact probably beneficial.
>>
>> I add one piece of advice. After setting for a day in carboy, do the
>> first
>> racking to get it off the gross lees. Put the gross lees in another
>> container, let set another day and decant or carefully rack some clear
>> wine
>> off the top and throw away the sludge.
>>
>> There is no need to hurry to get off the lees that develop after this as
>> they will mostly contain dead yeast cells and not pulp debris. It is the
>> gross lees that will result in H2S problems down the road if you don't
>> get
>> the wine off these early.
>
> Excellent, thanks so much for this info.
>
> One thing I hadn't considered is that I'll be siphoning off quite a bit
> of free-run juice into a carboy before pressing. I'm wondering if you
> happen to know about what % of run-off I might anticipate before having
> to press the remainder. Nothing scientific, I'm just curious about a
> rough figure. Understood different varietals and soaks result in
> different mixtures which will free-run better or worse than Pinot Noir.
>
> Thanks,
>
> David

Don't know but I would suspect that 70% to 80% will be free run. I have
never worked with Pinot.

As a note: I think you will find that the "free run" will drop a lot more
lees and gunk than the pressed fraction. I know, it does not seem logical
but this is always my experience.

Don;t siphon it off - just keep the 'free run' that comes off separate. as
you transfer the wine from the primary vat to the press, a LOT of wine will
simply "run out" - that is your free run. No need to siphon anything.


> Excellent, thanks so much for this info.
>
> One thing I hadn't considered is that I'll be siphoning off quite a bit
> of free-run juice into a carboy before pressing. I'm wondering if you
> happen to know about what % of run-off I might anticipate before having
> to press the remainder. Nothing scientific, I'm just curious about a
> rough figure. Understood different varietals and soaks result in
> different mixtures which will free-run better or worse than Pinot Noir.
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
>

Ric wrote:
> Don;t siphon it off - just keep the 'free run' that comes off separate. as
> you transfer the wine from the primary vat to the press, a LOT of wine will
> simply "run out" - that is your free run. No need to siphon anything.

Ahhhh... interesting.

I'm planning on letting everything settle for a day in a few carboys,
so I can siphon off the gross lees.

You guys *sure* it's okay for all of the wine to be out in the open
air, running free through a basic press? It just seems so
counter-logical to me, having had a few batches in previous years
ruined due to oxidation and under-sulfiting. Call me paranoid. On the
other hand, from what I've been reading, you're all absolutely correct.
God I hope this works.

Cheers,

David

Yes.. Just bucket the grape skins and juice into your press cage. Whatever
runs out is the free run juice... usually considered the premium stuff.
Albeit still quite full of sediment as Paul mentioned. I have a 12 gal
press and usually press down with my hands (wearing rubber gloves to avoid
stained hands) to firm up the building cake every bucket or two.. making
sure no voids, etc.. I raise my press up by bolting it to two nailed
together pallets. That allows me enough space to collect the wine in those
white plastic buckets that have a 1/2 gallon increment marks up to 5 gal on
the side of the container and keep track of what goes in each carboy for
future blending/tasting. The pallets also make the press much more stable.
Then when press is full of grape skins and juice, I let free run go until
almost completely stopped. Then crank down on cake until light resistance
and then let that juice run out until almost completely stopped. Then
repeat process. Eventually, I have to crank down pretty hard towards the
end. There's the temptation to just crank the heck out of the press and
apply high pressure initially, but if you do you may trap juice between
layers. It takes awhile. I always seem to be a little anxious towards the
end as to when to call it quits and reload since wine/juice is still coming
out, but very slowly. Some take the cake out, mix it up and repress. I
don't have patience for that.. Pressing is fun though.. definitely a fun
part of making wine..

"David" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> > Not to worry, just do as the owner said. Exposure to air at this stage
is
> > ok and in fact probably beneficial.
> >
> > I add one piece of advice. After setting for a day in carboy, do the
first
> > racking to get it off the gross lees. Put the gross lees in another
> > container, let set another day and decant or carefully rack some clear
wine
> > off the top and throw away the sludge.
> >
> > There is no need to hurry to get off the lees that develop after this as
> > they will mostly contain dead yeast cells and not pulp debris. It is
the
> > gross lees that will result in H2S problems down the road if you don't
get
> > the wine off these early.
>
> Excellent, thanks so much for this info.
>
> One thing I hadn't considered is that I'll be siphoning off quite a bit
> of free-run juice into a carboy before pressing. I'm wondering if you
> happen to know about what % of run-off I might anticipate before having
> to press the remainder. Nothing scientific, I'm just curious about a
> rough figure. Understood different varietals and soaks result in
> different mixtures which will free-run better or worse than Pinot Noir.
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
>

David wrote:
> Ric wrote:
> > Don;t siphon it off - just keep the 'free run' that comes off separate. as
> > you transfer the wine from the primary vat to the press, a LOT of wine will
> > simply "run out" - that is your free run. No need to siphon anything.
>
> Ahhhh... interesting.
>
> I'm planning on letting everything settle for a day in a few carboys,
> so I can siphon off the gross lees.

I hate to contradict here, especially given that I do not have a lot of
posting under my handle here, but, I usually do not rack after I press
untill ML is done. This could be a couple of weeks to a month later,
depending on temp. Lees suppose to be good for ML. I am on my third
year of Pinot and no H2S problem yet.
On your original question, yes lots of C02 protecting the wine, even if
you read 0 brix as at this point. alcohol throws off the hyrdometer
reading, so primary is still going.

Uzi

Hi everyone,

Wow, this is excellent information. I've searched high and low and
*blush* should have instead just posted the questions here in the first
place.

My start culture is about ready. One last night at 50-54F (had a hard
time getting temp below that) and then it's time to warm it up and
pitch. And then the real fun begins.

I'll be sure to use all your information, and will let you know how it
turns out.

Thanks,

David