I have been looking at a rather expensive piece of equipment for use in a
retail wine tasting environment. "Enomatic" is Italian in origin, and is
just recently being installed in wine bars and restaurants in the US. The
unit instantly replaces dispensed wine with either nitrogen or argon gas,
via air-tight tubes in the bottles. The company makes room temp,
refrigerated and climate controlled models.

They claim validated testing to support zero degradation of wine quality for
24 days with their system. This is certainly a way to provide measured
tastings of expensive wines in a low traffic business, but the cost of the
equipment is considerable.

I'm wondering a couple of things, at least: First, does anyone here have any
factual info on whether this thing really works as claimed; and second, how
do buyers of expensive (US$50+++) wine react to the idea. One perspective
is that high-end buyers might think this is a great way to taste before
buying, but another view could be that the same buyer trusts the winery,
vintage, etc. and has already done enough tasting to buy without the
'insurance' of a taste. The buyer isn't buying the bottle he's tasting from
anyway.

What do you think?

I know nothing about the wine machine you mention. However I have been
using a wine machine for about 20 years at home, so perhaps my
experience will be of a little help.

I use a California Wine Machine that I have not seen for sale in many
years. I have it in the wine storage room. When I want a glass of wine,
I use a 4 oz measuring glass to draw a glass. This gives 6 glasses per
bottle with a bit left over for sediment or a bonus for the owner. At
cellar temperature, the wine only has to be heated or cooled a bit to
reach serving temperature. Of course in a restaurant or store situation,
you might want temperature controls for both reds and whites so that the
wine is ready to drink at once.

It is very important to keep everything clean to avoid off tastes. The
nozzle should be cleaned with a bit of water and dried with a paper
towel after each use if the wine is not likely to be drawn again for
several hours. My unit uses stainless steel tubes that dip in the wine,
and I find these easier to keep clean than plastic ones.

When you open a bottle of wine, some air gets in before you insert the
tap. On my machine, the tubes can be positioned just above the wine
surface so that you can flush out thi air with gas and then slide the
tubes down into the wine. This may not be important for a robust young
wine that is likely to be gone an a day or two.

I once got a tank of nitrogen that had too much oxygen in it. A bottle
of old wine slowly became a bit stale over many days. I now use
"pre-purified" nitrogen that does not cost much more than the standard
nitrogen. Either nitrogen or argon should give good results. The
important thing is that the gas does not contain much oxygen.

Unfortunately my state does not allow tasting samples in the wine shop.
If it did, I would be tempted to try a glass of a wine new to me before
buying a bottle, especially if the wine is expensive. In such a case a
tiny sample as small as one ounce would be enough for me to decide if I
want to buy the wine.

Reply to .

4 years ago, a fellow in North Carolina called me having returned from a
trip to Italy. He described a portion control wine dispenser he saw in a
bar into which one could insert a pre-paid "debit card" and taste the
various offerings. Since my company works with every mainstream line of
wine storage equipment on 3 continents (not including Antarctica), he wanted
more information.

My immediate response that it had to be a winery-subsidized, unique creation
that they developed to sell their wines. "There couldn't possibly be a
viable market for such a creature. And if there were, I would certainly know
about it!" said I. (So I was wrong - sue me)

A year later, a semi-retired inventor/entrepreneur in Washington state -
maybe Oregon - called me for assistance in locating parts for a custom
dispenser that would allow for "ganging" a series of bottles in a restaurant
and obviating the need to change bottles mid-shift. We sent him a $24
stopper-faucet assembly. We wouldn't accept payment - a la Brando in The
Godfather, we said that one day he might return the favor. (So I was
right!)

6 months later, I was introduced by the same gentleman to the U.S. importer
for Enomatic. My company is now the exclusive source for them in the state
of Texas and we assist residents of the lesser 49 states (just kidding) in
connecting with their respective sources - especially west of the
Mississippi.

Believe it or not - 2 of the 1st 3 installations were not in New York,
Chicago, L.A. - but in Sugarland, TX and Austin, TX ... so much for "beer
and BBQ" ....

The machine is everything it claims to be - and more. Most residential
applications probably wouldn't justify the expense, technology or
sophistication. That's why you won't find the product promoted through
traditional resellers or mail order companies. On the other hand, given
sufficient commercial volume, the portion control and inventory management
capabilities will provide a significant amortized cost savings for larger
operations.

When Enomatic is "too much machine" for a home or a moderate sized wine bar,
Winekeeper is pretty much the industry standard. Certainly it is the most
cost-effective mix of function, mechanical reliability and mfg's support.
They've been in business 20 years - same owners - same phone #'s - same
location. None of the other 4 alternatives can even approach their
standards.

Regardless - the laws of physics aren't going to change. If you introduce
an food grade, inert gas - argon or nitrogen - into an opened bottle of wine
and maintain a proper seal, the wine will be unaffected for at least a 3
week period - potentially longer.

Buyers love it. As a secondary benefit, it's an entertaining novelty and a
great merchandising "hook". Ultimately, like casinos, there will be one on
every corner. But now folks line up just to play with it. Retail or
restaurant, one can spend a couple of bucks on a taste before blowing real
money on a bottle or case lots.

In 2 years, the 3 original installations have grown to a couple of dozen
scheduled by the end of the year. Even I don't understand all the
technology involved with the computerized hookups to Italy with regard to
software maintenenance, but as an old restaurateur, I can appreciate the
value of the control and reporting, as well as the merchandising element.
At possibly $1500 - $2000 per position, you gotta have the volume to justify
it.

If only the TABC (Texas's neo-Nazi liquor control board) could allow a 50
year old man to self-serve himself $10 worth of wine samples .....




"Midlife" > wrote in message
...
>I have been looking at a rather expensive piece of equipment for use in a
> retail wine tasting environment. "Enomatic" is Italian in origin, and is
> just recently being installed in wine bars and restaurants in the US. The
> unit instantly replaces dispensed wine with either nitrogen or argon gas,
> via air-tight tubes in the bottles. The company makes room temp,
> refrigerated and climate controlled models.
>
> They claim validated testing to support zero degradation of wine quality
> for
> 24 days with their system. This is certainly a way to provide measured
> tastings of expensive wines in a low traffic business, but the cost of the
> equipment is considerable.
>
> I'm wondering a couple of things, at least: First, does anyone here have
> any
> factual info on whether this thing really works as claimed; and second,
> how
> do buyers of expensive (US$50+++) wine react to the idea. One perspective
> is that high-end buyers might think this is a great way to taste before
> buying, but another view could be that the same buyer trusts the winery,
> vintage, etc. and has already done enough tasting to buy without the
> 'insurance' of a taste. The buyer isn't buying the bottle he's tasting
> from
> anyway.
>
> What do you think?
>

Mike states in part:

"Winekeeper is pretty much the industry standard. Certainly it is the
most cost-effective mix of function, mechanical reliability and mfg's
support. They've been in business 20 years - same owners - same phone
#'s - same location. None of the other 4 alternatives can even approach
their standards."

I agree that Winekeeper is by far the most common wine machine now -
nearly every place that sells wine equipment has it. While the Enomatic
may be excellent in a restaurant or wine bar situation, it likely is
overkill for most homes, and perhaps even a few commercial
establishments..

The Winekeeper taps appear to have a fixed plastic tube that can not
slide to above the wine level to flush out the air that is introduced
when the bottle is uncorked. This may be no problem for full, young
wines, and even a trace of air might benefit some that are very young.
However for those such as myself who open some very old wines, I find a
fixed position tube completely unacceptable. I believe the Cruvinet uses
stainless steel tap tubes that will slide to allow flushing of air from
the neck of the bottle. If so it might be the best choice currently
available for those who open older wines and sometimes keep them for
several weeks, such as I do. The Cruvinet may be more expensive. However
this price difference pales in comparison to the current value of a
single bottle of a top older wine. You must carefully check the features
of current wine macines yourself, as I have not needed to replace my 20
year old one, and it may well outlast me.

Also, don't bother yourself with those little bottles of nitrogen that
have to be replaced all of the time. Get a proper 2 stage pressure
regulator that fits a standard cylinder of nitrogen or argon. A "Q"
sized tank of the gas should last most people a very long time, and it
is not neaarly as heavy as the larger cylinders - you can lift it
without risking a hernia :-). You can order the gas nearly anywhere at a
welding supply company. You can rent the cylinder or buy your own. As I
mentioned in my first post, I aways order the "pre-purifed" grade of
nitrogen since I once got a tank of ordinary nitrogen with too much
oxygen in it. This may be overkill, but it costs very little more.

Reply to .

You may have it backwards .... Winekeeper provides regulators and commercial
grade tubing as a standard - Cruvinet will charge extra on anything but the
over - priced "premium" offering ... of course the cost is built in anyway.
There ain't no free lunch.

Anyway - Cruvinet fixtures are welded, and therefore, cleanliness isn't next
to godliness - it's much more difficult. We've never recommended
factory-supplied canisters. Unless you're in BFE, Idaho, a local bottled
gas company can provide more convenient and cost-effective local
replacement.

Regardless, ambient atmosphere is segregated and there is no "air gap".

With all due respect to individual experience, we do this for a living and
among hundreds of applications - between both alternatives as will as the
others - no one has re-invented the laws of physics. I have the benefit of
having placed somewhere around 1200 of these machines .... The principles
remain the same. Service issues are virtually non-existent with
Winekeeper - Cruvinet is something different.

As the representative of the clients' interests - in keeping with our
primary focus on information, not commissions - there is no objective,
technical rationale for the increased price of Cruvinet.

There's some cheap crap in the market - we're not always focused on cost.
But Cruvinet has drawbacks and certainly offers no enhanced value for the $.
We buy Cruvinets every month for clients - but barring specific parameters
to a given application , Winekeeper will routinely provide a more logical
alternative.

"Food grade" nitrogen is the term that will comply with local codes and let
the local gas company know what you want. For God's sake, don't use
anything else!




"Cwdjrx _" > wrote in message
...
> Mike states in part:
>
> "Winekeeper is pretty much the industry standard. Certainly it is the
> most cost-effective mix of function, mechanical reliability and mfg's
> support. They've been in business 20 years - same owners - same phone
> #'s - same location. None of the other 4 alternatives can even approach
> their standards."
>
> I agree that Winekeeper is by far the most common wine machine now -
> nearly every place that sells wine equipment has it. While the Enomatic
> may be excellent in a restaurant or wine bar situation, it likely is
> overkill for most homes, and perhaps even a few commercial
> establishments..
>
> The Winekeeper taps appear to have a fixed plastic tube that can not
> slide to above the wine level to flush out the air that is introduced
> when the bottle is uncorked. This may be no problem for full, young
> wines, and even a trace of air might benefit some that are very young.
> However for those such as myself who open some very old wines, I find a
> fixed position tube completely unacceptable. I believe the Cruvinet uses
> stainless steel tap tubes that will slide to allow flushing of air from
> the neck of the bottle. If so it might be the best choice currently
> available for those who open older wines and sometimes keep them for
> several weeks, such as I do. The Cruvinet may be more expensive. However
> this price difference pales in comparison to the current value of a
> single bottle of a top older wine. You must carefully check the features
> of current wine macines yourself, as I have not needed to replace my 20
> year old one, and it may well outlast me.
>
> Also, don't bother yourself with those little bottles of nitrogen that
> have to be replaced all of the time. Get a proper 2 stage pressure
> regulator that fits a standard cylinder of nitrogen or argon. A "Q"
> sized tank of the gas should last most people a very long time, and it
> is not neaarly as heavy as the larger cylinders - you can lift it
> without risking a hernia :-). You can order the gas nearly anywhere at a
> welding supply company. You can rent the cylinder or buy your own. As I
> mentioned in my first post, I aways order the "pre-purifed" grade of
> nitrogen since I once got a tank of ordinary nitrogen with too much
> oxygen in it. This may be overkill, but it costs very little more.
>
> Reply to .
>

Mike wrote:

> Regardless, ambient atmosphere is segregated and there is no "air gap".

I wish you would explain this more fully. When I open a bottle of wine,
of course some air rushes in to fill all of the space above the liquid
level in the bottle. Then I put in the tap, with the stainless steel
tube pulled just above the surface of the wine. Then, with the tap
pressed open, I run a lot of nitrogen into the bottle, which displaces
the air through the tube and out the tap where wine usually flows. I
then lower the tube into the wine.The tube is sealed with standard
O-rings that allow it to slide and that can be easily replaced. It
would appear, from the Cruvinet site, that one can also do something of
the sort with the Cruvinet. Now how do you displace the air after
pulling the cork with the Winekeeper? Their tap would appear to have a
fixed tube, so how to you either displace all of the air above the wine
with nitrogen or do something else to force all of the air in the neck
of the bottle out of the bottle? As I pointed out, this likely is not
important for young wines, especially in a restaurant situation with
rapid turnover. However some old wines change very rapidly with just a
little exposure to oxygen from air. I am speaking from experience of
storing wines up to over 100 years old in my wine machine.

Please do not try to lecture me on nitrogen. I have a PhD in physical
chemistry and am quite capable of evaluation of impurities in gas.
"Pre-purified" nitrogen is of much higher purity than nitrogen usually
used for food, welding, and other such non-critical uses, and it
normally is used for research purposes. You can find specifications
concerning impurities, etc on the sites of the companies that produce
the gas or from literature they give their local vendors.

I usually reply from another address, but tonight I am replying from
Google using my Yahoo address.

Salut/Hi Midlife,

le/on Tue, 04 Oct 2005 16:34:12 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

>I have been looking at a rather expensive piece of equipment for use in a
>retail wine tasting environment. "Enomatic" is Italian in origin, and is
>just recently being installed in wine bars and restaurants in the US. The
>unit instantly replaces dispensed wine with either nitrogen or argon gas,
>via air-tight tubes in the bottles. The company makes room temp,
>refrigerated and climate controlled models.

Interesting.

>I'm wondering a couple of things, at least: First, does anyone here have any
>factual info on whether this thing really works as claimed;

Sorry, no.

> and second, how do buyers of expensive (US$50+++) wine react to the idea.

Well, my perspective is slightly different, but I hope you find it valid.

My worry is that as we nearly all know, wine can improve quite dramatically
with limited exposure to air. I can well imagine that the system will
deliver a slug of wine exactly as if it had come out of an unopened bottle,
and that the rest of the wine in the bottle will be pretty well unaffected.
BUT, when you decant a wine, you expose it to quite considerable
oxygenation, as much for that purpose as to separate it from any possible
sediment. I don't find the same result in relatively short term and intense
oxygenation in a glass. So would your hypothetical top end wine show as WELL
when dispensed from Enomatic as it would had it been decanted?

>What do you think?

Better than wasting a whole bottle for one tasting, but I have some doubts
as stated above.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Salut/Hi ,

le/on 4 Oct 2005 22:11:40 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

>Mike wrote:

Some quite interesting stuff.

And you replied:-

>Please do not try to lecture me on nitrogen. I have a PhD in physical
>chemistry and am quite capable of evaluation of impurities in gas.

That's really not bad for a new arrival. In his first day (under this name -
I get a slight radioactive glow from one of his posts), out of 8 posts he's
managed to plug his business four times AND get on the wrong side of two of
our most highly qualified members.

Now I don't want to be told again by Max that I'm being intolerant, but at
his present rate of progress, he's likely to end up in several people's twit
filters before the week is out - for all his involvement in the trade.


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Hello Mike,

> Believe it or not - 2 of the 1st 3 installations were not in New York,
> Chicago, L.A. - but in Sugarland, TX and Austin, TX ... so much for
> "beer and BBQ" ....

Were they installed at restaurants or bars? If so, where was the one in Austin
installed?

Austin's is Tuscany Market and Vineyard. It's a really unique concept. A
very unassuming "pizza delicatessen" for lack of a better word that has a
separate tasting and retail area.

Sugarland is Vineyard on the Square and is more of a wine bar.


"Hal Burton" > wrote in message
obal.net...
> Hello Mike,
>
>> Believe it or not - 2 of the 1st 3 installations were not in New York,
>> Chicago, L.A. - but in Sugarland, TX and Austin, TX ... so much for
>> "beer and BBQ" ....
>
> Were they installed at restaurants or bars? If so, where was the one in
> Austin installed?
>
>