Hello;
A month or so ago I asked about the hsitory of the names tocai (as in tocai
bianco) and Tokay (as in Tokay Pinot Gris). Luk´s explanation of tocai as
Slovenian, meaning simply "from here" (later confirmed in a translation
machine) seemed so pedestrian and lack-luster that it simply has to be true
(cf Italian variety names such as schiava, vernaccia).
SO, Tokay. When is Tokay first mentioned in ALsace? Mr Google has been
interviewed repeatedly, but fails to give an answer. If Tokay was put on the
labels of bottles (perfectly anachronsitic) to make people think of the
great Tokaji, then, they would have to _know_ about Tokaji, right? And that
places us in the 17th century and the days of Louis XV.
I´m sorry if I´m bugging anybody about this, I suppose I´ve got a touch of
Asperger, is all ...
Perhaps it appears unlikely that it would be possible to pinpoint a "first
mention", but, as an example, Gewurztraminer is mentioned as a typical
Alsace variety 1551! I think the frist mention of Riesling by name goes even
further back (14th century!).

So, anybody know this?

TIA
Cheers

Nils Gustaf

--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se

"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > skrev i melding
...
> Hello;
....
> SO, Tokay. When is Tokay first mentioned in ALsace? Mr Google has been
> interviewed repeatedly, but fails to give an answer.
Hi Nils,
I tried googling in German and found the following:
Den Pinot Gris kennt man auch unter den Namen: Ruländer, Grauer Burgunder,
Malvoisie, Tokay Pinot Gris oder Pinot Beurot.
Die Rebe gelangte von Frankreich nach Ungarn, dann ins Elsaß und
letztendlich nach Deutschland (ca. 1568).
(This variety came from France into Hungary, then to Alsace and finally to
Germany (ab. 1568).)
And further:
Anerkannt wurde sie erst 1689 durch den Kaufmann und Apotheker Ruland aus
Speyer daher der Name Ruländer, der die Sorte in einem verwilderten Garten
entdeckte.
(It was acknowledged only in 1689 by the effort of Grocer and Apothecarian
Ruland of Speyer, whence the name Ruländer, who discovered this variety in
an untended garden.)
hth
Anders

"Anders Tørneskog" > skrev i melding
...
>
> "Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > skrev i melding
> ...
>> Hello;
> ...
Hi again Nils,
This one I leave untranslated as you probably know French better than I do:
Son origine est incertaine. Il aurait été rapporté de Hongrie par le général
autrichien Schwendi, qui possédait une propriété viticole en Alsace. Mais
d'aucuns assurent que ce cépage proviendrait de Bourgogne. Il n'a cependant
rien à voir avec son homonyme hongrois (prononcez tokaï) qui, lui, est issu
du cépage furmint.
:-)
Anders

"Anders Tørneskog" > skrev i meddelandet
...
>
> "Anders Tørneskog" > skrev i melding
> ...
>>
>> "Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > skrev i melding
>> ...
>>> Hello;
>> ...
> Hi again Nils,
> This one I leave untranslated as you probably know French better than I
> do:
> Son origine est incertaine. Il aurait été rapporté de Hongrie par le
> général autrichien Schwendi, qui possédait une propriété viticole en
> Alsace. Mais d'aucuns assurent que ce cépage proviendrait de Bourgogne. Il
> n'a cependant rien à voir avec son homonyme hongrois (prononcez tokaï)
> qui, lui, est issu du cépage furmint.


Ah yes, the gentle lazar Schwendi who sacked Tokaji and returned with 4000
barrels of ... some sort of Tokaji wine, which most likely was not Aszu as
we know it, but might very well have been a sweet wine made from the grape
furmint, or haszlarvelu.
As for the wine originating in Hungary, as the first post states (in a
quote, of course), weeerrrll ... I don´t know. Pinot Gris is cultivated in
Western Hungary, under the name Szurkebarat (Grey Friar), but how long that
has been the case? I think I´ll stick to the pedestrian wisdom taht it
originated in Bourgogne, as a slightly de-pigmented clone of Pinot Noir ...
It would of course be interesting for us amateur Aspergers to know that the
mention in 1689 was the _very_ _first_ mention of PG. And by an apothecary,
no less. ANyway, that would ccount for the German name Ruländer. (Funny, in
Cseckia, there is a wine called Rulandske which, apaprently, is something
else).
This helps me to plot the time line of the variety, but I still would dearly
like to know when the name Tokay (referring to PG) first is recorded.
Thank you Anders, you hjave been very helpful!

Cheers

Nils Gustaf
--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se

"Anders Tørneskog" > skrev i meddelandet
...
>
> "Anders Tørneskog" > skrev i melding
> ...
>>
>> "Nils Gustaf Lindgren" > skrev i melding
>> ...
>>> Hello;
>> ...
> Hi again Nils,
> This one I leave untranslated as you probably know French better than I
> do:
> Son origine est incertaine. Il aurait été rapporté de Hongrie par le
> général autrichien Schwendi, qui possédait une propriété viticole en
> Alsace. Mais d'aucuns assurent que ce cépage proviendrait de Bourgogne. Il
> n'a cependant rien à voir avec son homonyme hongrois (prononcez tokaï)
> qui, lui, est issu du cépage furmint.


Ah yes, the gentle lazar Schwendi who sacked Tokaji and returned with 4000
barrels of ... some sort of Tokaji wine, which most likely was not Aszu as
we know it, but might very well have been a sweet wine made from the grape
furmint, or haszlarvelu.
As for the wine originating in Hungary, as the first post states (in a
quote, of course), weeerrrll ... I don´t know. Pinot Gris is cultivated in
Western Hungary, under the name Szurkebarat (Grey Friar), but how long that
has been the case? I think I´ll stick to the pedestrian wisdom taht it
originated in Bourgogne, as a slightly de-pigmented clone of Pinot Noir ...
It would of course be interesting for us amateur Aspergers to know that the
mention in 1689 was the _very_ _first_ mention of PG. And by an apothecary,
no less. ANyway, that would ccount for the German name Ruländer. (Funny, in
Cseckia, there is a wine called Rulandske which, apaprently, is something
else).
This helps me to plot the time line of the variety, but I still would dearly
like to know when the name Tokay (referring to PG) first is recorded.
Thank you Anders, you hjave been very helpful!

Cheers

Nils Gustaf
--
Respond to nils dot lindgren at drchips dot se