Hi Gang,

As an offshoot to the recent post on aging corks and tainted wine,
I've a question / concern.

I've collected and swilled this stuff for about 35 years now. I'd say
that in that time, my "average" loss due to poor corks ( both tainted
and loose ) is about 5-8%.

While I love ( guess cause I'm an old curmudgeon traditionalist ) the
use of cork, I recognize that there is always room for improvement.

The hard thing for me to discern is not the capablity of the new
methods for "sealing" a bottle. I'm sure that their "seal" can be a
perfect one. What I cannot answer is the effect of a "perfect seal"
on the aging of the wine. Air transfer through a cork, albeit
miniscule, does have an impact on the aging characteristics.

Would the 27 yQuem or the 47 Huet that I still have one each of in my
cellar and expect to hold for some time yet, have aged the way that
they have if they had been perfectly sealed ??

I recognize this is really a bitch for the producers to do any kind of
an A|B comparison with since the alternative closures are so new.

From my point of view, since the number of years I have left to drink
are not what they were when I was 20, I'm sticking with cork for what
I call "cellaring" wine and then for other "new" wines .. ie the
recent crop of screwcap Sauv Blancs from NZ I've not problem with the
new closure.

As a bit of a chuckle, last night Betsy grabbed one of those NZ
screwcaps from the "quaffing" section of our cellar and spent 10
minutes trying figure how to get the foil off so that she could put in
the corkscrew !! LOL


Art Stratemeyer
=============================
http://www.stratsplace.com
A Community Celebration the Joy of Wine,Gardening and the Arts

Cellar! Wine Software
http://www.cellarwinesoftware.com

"Art Stratemeyer" wrote in message

> The hard thing for me to discern is not the capablity of the new
> methods for "sealing" a bottle. I'm sure that their "seal" can be a
> perfect one. What I cannot answer is the effect of a "perfect seal"
> on the aging of the wine. Air transfer through a cork, albeit
> miniscule, does have an impact on the aging characteristics.
>
> Would the 27 yQuem or the 47 Huet that I still have one each of in my
> cellar and expect to hold for some time yet, have aged the way that
> they have if they had been perfectly sealed ??


Hi Art
I've cut & pasted below a post I made a couple of weeks ago regarding a
stelvins perfect seal. All I could say about the y'Quem & Huet is that they
would be different if they were sealed in stelvin, not better or worse
necesarily, just different. One thing I have learned in 25 years of wine is
that every bottle I drink is completely individual, the experience I have
with a 27 y'Quem WILL be different to the experience you have. This is the
glory of wine.
Cheers Andrew

Whilst there are more & more wines going into Stelvin it can be hard to find
older ones, it does happen though. In late 2002 I went to Brown Brothers
winery in the King Valley Central Victoria where a friend of mine had taken
a position as Food & Beverage Manager (Restaurant & Cellar Door) I'd been
there before and enjoyed their fairly extensive range, this time however I
had the good fortune & right connections to sample a bottle of 1977 Spatlese
Lexia that had been sealed under Stelvin and stored in the Family Cellar. (3
dozen of every wine, every vintage goes into the family cellar and it is a
very impressive sight) We tasted the '77 alongside the '02, these wines were
made in exactly the same way from pretty much the same parcel of grapes.
Well what an unbeleivable difference, the '02 was overly sweet, one
dimensional trailer trash wine. The '77, with no addition but old father
time and a perfect seal, was rich & complex, honeyed mint and toasty caramel
with a magnificent lingering finish and wonderful fresh vibrancy. This was a
"Stelvin Epiphany" for me, far from being a cheap seal for cheap wine it
suddenly became by far the best seal for all those semillons & reislings I
love with 5 to 10 years or more on them. I buy a couple of dozen premium Oz
reisling every year ($20 -$30) for ageing and I now look exclusively for
Stelvins. Love that closure.
Andrew

I'[d say 5+% is about my average too, except for Jan 2005! So far I've
had badly corked bottles of '98 Fontenil, '93 Chiarlo Barolo, '95 Ridge
Geyserville, Brundlmayer GruVe, & '99 Cline Zin, plus bottles of '96
Potensac and '01 Selbach-Oster Kab that I sniffed a lot before deciding
they were definitely corked. Probably closer to 15%. Bring on the
stelvins.

Perhaps you should drink less :-)


"DaleW" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I'[d say 5+% is about my average too, except for Jan 2005! So far I've
> had badly corked bottles of '98 Fontenil, '93 Chiarlo Barolo, '95 Ridge
> Geyserville, Brundlmayer GruVe, & '99 Cline Zin, plus bottles of '96
> Potensac and '01 Selbach-Oster Kab that I sniffed a lot before deciding
> they were definitely corked. Probably closer to 15%. Bring on the
> stelvins.
>

Art Stratemeyer > wrote:

> The hard thing for me to discern is not the capablity of the new
> methods for "sealing" a bottle. I'm sure that their "seal" can
> be a perfect one. What I cannot answer is the effect of a
> "perfect seal" on the aging of the wine. Air transfer through a
> cork, albeit miniscule, does have an impact on the aging
> characteristics.
>
> Would the 27 yQuem or the 47 Huet that I still have one each of
> in my cellar and expect to hold for some time yet, have aged the
> way that they have if they had been perfectly sealed ??

Art, they would have aged better - and equally, i.e. without
bottle variation.

Btw, the idea of corks letting "breathe" the wine to age is an
urban legend. Please read Tyson Stelzer's opening post of this
thread about the most recent findings of oxigen transgressability
of corks vs. stelvins, done by the AWRI:

<http://fora.erobertparker.com/cgi-bi.../topic/1/46710
..html?>

or

<http://snipurl.com/cfvw>

Thank you.

M.

Michael Pronay wrote:

> Btw, the idea of corks letting "breathe" the wine to age is an
> urban legend. Please read Tyson Stelzer's opening post of this
> thread about the most recent findings of oxigen transgressability
> of corks vs. stelvins, done by the AWRI:
>
> <http://fora.erobertparker.com/cgi-bi.../topic/1/46710
> .html?>
>
> or
>
> <http://snipurl.com/cfvw>

Michael,
While we agree on most issues vinous, I'm afraid that we'll have to
agree to disagree over this one. The data you cite merely show that
corks permit, on average, far more oxygen ingress than do Stelvin
closures and that there is far more variability even among the best
corks than there is among Stelvin. However, does this really mean that
the aging of wine is anaerobic? If we take the mean value for cork
cited, 0.012 mL/day of oxygen, that's actually quite a bit of oxygen
getting into the bottle. Mark Squires's argument that bottles with the
least ullage show the best is a good point, but keep in mind that the
data presented were for three year old corks. I would hazard a guess
that the degree of oxygen permability by corks hardly remains constant
with time.
My views on this matter also arise from the chemistry of wine aging.
The processes I have seen for the polymerization of tannin (leading to
sediment formation) all involve oxygen, either directly or indirectly.
The UC Davis people cite an "anaerobic" process that uses acetaldehyde
to cross-link tannins... but where does the acetaldehyde come from? I
say it comes from the (oxygen-mediated) dehydrogenation of alcohol, and
I have seen no suggestions to the contrary.
So I will remain a skeptic. I know of your citations of
hermetically sealed bottles aging gracefully, but I remain unconvinced
that they age in precisely the same way as in bottles sealed under less
than ideal conditions. I feel that the true test will come from studies
in which the same wine, bottled under Stelvin and cork is tasted over a
30-50 year period and evaluated under double-blind conditions. Only
then will we have a true test for how well wines develop under Stelvin.
However, I am 100% behind the use of Stelvin and hope that such
studies, by the AWRI and others, are carried out soon so that we can
settle this issue once and for all.

Mark Lipton

Mark Lipton

Mark Lipton > wrote:

>> Btw, the idea of corks letting "breathe" the wine to age is an
>> urban legend. Please read Tyson Stelzer's opening post of this
>> thread about the most recent findings of oxigen
>> transgressability of corks vs. stelvins, done by the AWRI:
>>
>> <http://snipurl.com/cfvw>

> While we agree on most issues vinous, I'm afraid that we'll have
> to agree to disagree over this one.
> [...]
> However, I am 100% behind the use of Stelvin and hope that such
> studies, by the AWRI and others, are carried out soon so that we
> can settle this issue once and for all.

We're not *that* far apart, after all ... ;-)

M.

Salut/Hi Michael Pronay,

le/on 1 Feb 2005 04:40:23 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>Art, they would have aged better - and equally, i.e. without
>bottle variation.
>
>Btw, the idea of corks letting "breathe" the wine to age is an
>urban legend.

I don't think there's enough good evidence on this, Michael for you to be so
categorical. I'm sorry, but you shouldn't let your support for Stelvin (with
which I agree) blind you to the fact that it is entirely normal for there to
be an interchange through/past the cork. I agree entirely with Mark on this.
The problem, as you know only too well, is that with wines which are aging
up to 50 or more years, it is very hard to pin down what part of the
improvement of wines with age is due to one factor (oxygen ingress) and what
to another (anaerobic).

Please read Tyson Stelzer's opening post of this
>thread about the most recent findings of oxigen transgressability
>of corks vs. stelvins, done by the AWRI:

><http://snipurl.com/cfvw>

I've read it. In my opinion it says nothing significant about the _factors_
which influence wine's improvement with age, although it is convincing about
the variability of cork permeability.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Ian Hoare > wrote:

>> Btw, the idea of corks letting "breathe" the wine to age is an
>> urban legend.

> I don't think there's enough good evidence on this, Michael for
> you to be so categorical. I'm sorry, but you shouldn't let your
> support for Stelvin (with which I agree) blind you to the fact
> that it is entirely normal for there to be an interchange
> through/past the cork. I agree entirely with Mark on this.

What about

<http://www.guy-saget.com/vin_de_la_mer.htm> ?

What about the 1907 Heidsieck Goût Anglais, drowned with the
"Jonköping" in 1916 and secured recently?

What about the 30+ years rieslings and semillons under screw-cap from
Australia?

What about the Mercurey 1966 under screw-cap at the university de
Dijon?

M.

Mike Tommasi wrote:

> Interesting discussion, although I tend to be on Michael's side of
> this argument. It would be a curious accident of history that man
> ended up chosing a closure that just by chance, and unknown to them.
> permitted this most minute of gas exchange. Cork was probably selected
> at the time of its early use simply because of its exceptional
> elasticity over a useful life of two decades. Any "gas exchange" must
> be a defect of the closure. That this defect might actually improve
> great wines that would benefit from that extra oxygen, that might be,
> but is that improvement significant w.r.t. a perfectly sealed bottle,
> and is it demonstrable?

I agree with you that cork was chosen as the "space age material" of its
time for closing bottles, and that its ability to promote aging of the
wine was not even considered. However, I can easily believe that
cork-closed bottles may conform to our tastes more closely than e.g.
Stelvin-closed bottles (at least for some people in some cases). It
depends on the fact that we've all developed our taste for aged wine
from cork-aged bottles. Just as the ancients preferred wine with pine
sap flavors after many generations of drinking wine from pine tar-sealed
amphorae, so too have we developed a taste for somewhat oxidized red
wines. It's also like those audiophiles who actually prefer the sound
of tube amps (or LPs) to solid state amps (or CDs). In the end, it's
not about better or worse, it's about being different and what one is
used to.

>
> Champagne evolves in the bottle, despite being under pressure
> (therefore migration can only be outward, if any...).

True.

>
> I recommend that we jsut keep on opening those bottles, cork or
> Stelvin, and keep experimenting ;-)))

OK :-)

Mark Lipton

Salut/Hi Michael Pronay,

le/on 1 Feb 2005 10:54:10 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>Ian Hoare > wrote:
>
>>> Btw, the idea of corks letting "breathe" the wine to age is an
>>> urban legend.

>> I don't think there's enough good evidence on this, Michael for
>> you to be so categorical. I'm sorry, but you shouldn't let your
>> support for Stelvin (with which I agree) blind you to the fact
>> that it is entirely normal for there to be an interchange
>> through/past the cork. I agree entirely with Mark on this.

I'm afraid that I omitted to mention that IMO, red wines are more likely to
be affected.

>What about the 1907 Heidsieck Goût Anglais, drowned with the
>"Jonköping" in 1916 and secured recently?

What about it? We all know champagne ages anaerobically. What might be
interesting might be to inject traces of oxygen in the sort of quantities
that get into a great white Burgundy over the same time frame, and see which
one is better. If course it might no longer be recognisably "champagne", but
it might be a better wine (I know, it is sacriligious even to think about
such a thing. :-)))

>What about the 30+ years rieslings and semillons under screw-cap from
>Australia?

And what about the literally millions of wonderful bottles with some ullage
of which you've tasted quite a few ?

As I've said before, I'm sure there is plenty of evidence that shows that
wine improves anaerobically. What exercises my mind is whether it improves
better or worse, slower or faster, and whether the same is true for all
wines.

>What about the Mercurey 1966 under screw-cap at the university de
>Dijon?

Again, what about it? The study you referenced, show that even under
Stelvin, traces of oxygen DO get in.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Ian Hoare > wrote:

>> What about the Mercurey 1966 under screw-cap at the university
>> de Dijon?

> Again, what about it? The study you referenced, show that even
> under Stelvin, traces of oxygen DO get in.

The longer I think about the problem, the less I feel the question
of oxigen ingress of real importance. Wine can age perfectly under
cork, and wine can age perfectly under stelvin - just without TCA
taint, fruit scalping and random oxidation. Makes *my* choice
immediately evident.

M.

Mark Lipton wrote:
> >
> > Champagne evolves in the bottle, despite being under pressure
> > (therefore migration can only be outward, if any...).
>
> True.

Is this true?( the part about migration can only be outward) I'm a
little confused because some say that the pressure of the CO2 in the
bottle would not prevent O2 from migrating in due to law of partial
pressures.

Of course the way a sparkling wine's cork expands and forms a much
tighter fit would still lead me to believe there is little exchange of
gas, but I think there is some. I don't have a lot of experience with
old Champagne, but my impression is that it does tend to lose it's
pressure over time.

>
> >
> > I recommend that we jsut keep on opening those bottles, cork or
> > Stelvin, and keep experimenting ;-)))
>
> OK :-)
>

The best advice I've seen so far.


Andy

"JEP62" > wrote:

> I don't have a lot of experience with old Champagne, but my
> impression is that it does tend to lose it's pressure over time.

This is why I'd prefer crown caps for sparklers. There is
absolutely no reason (except "romance" or "tradition" - which I
don't want, especially when they concur with a double digit
percentage figure of cork taint) to put corks into these bottles.

M.

Just becasue I'm curious...ha anyone had an experience of an Aussie wine that
was corked, oxidized or tainted? About the closest I've come was with a bottle
of 1991 Henschke Hill of Grace that was a bit tired and over the hill. I
opened it in 2004 and it hadn't aged well but was it just too old, poorly
stored before I bought it, or due to a cork malfunction....I'll never know for
sure. In general I just haven't had a "bad" Aussie wine which I generally mark
up to impeccable wine making techniques in a somewaht more modern environment
from a technology standpoint.
Bi!!

Mike Tommasi states:

"Until 4 years ago I do not recall having encountered TCA on Champagne.
In 2004 I found 4 bottles tainted, including two "old" ones.
Gimme a capsule anytime (hey, these bottles are under capsule most of
their lives, they only put the cork in to "please" us... ;-)"

It was my impression that , at least in the past, Champage used a
"crown" cap much as used on soft drink bottles in the US in the past.
Most of our crown caps were converted to synthetic seals long ago.
However I can remember crown caps that had a seal of ground cork mixed
with a binding material. Your mention of a tainted older Champagne makes
me wonder if the crown caps used for it had a composite cork seal. Of
course the binding material would tend to seal the cork particles from
contact with the wine, but perhaps not completely.

My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase
from my email address. Then add . I do not
check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response.

<snip>
>Your mention of a tainted older Champagne makes
>me wonder if the crown caps used for it had a composite cork seal. Of
>course the binding material would tend to seal the cork particles from
>contact with the wine, but perhaps not completely.

On a visit last summer to Michel Turgy and Rene Geoffroy, they both used crown
type seals with a plastic type liner much like is used in Stelvin...no cork
inserts.

Bi!!

<snip>
>Your mention of a tainted older Champagne makes
>me wonder if the crown caps used for it had a composite cork seal. Of
>course the binding material would tend to seal the cork particles from
>contact with the wine, but perhaps not completely.

On a visit last summer to Michel Turgy and Rene Geoffroy, they both used crown
type seals with a plastic type liner much like is used in Stelvin...no cork
inserts.

Bi!!

(RV WRLee) wrote:

> Just becasue I'm curious...ha anyone had an experience of an
> Aussie wine that was corked, oxidized or tainted?


2005-01-22: 2002 d'Arenberg The Footbolt Shiraz (oxidized;
back-up bottle OK)

2004-05-12: 2002 Simon Hacket Shiraz (2 mouldy bottles -
TCA or bad wine?)

2004-03-21: 2000 Riverina Durif Warburn Show Reserve (1 bt cork)

2002-10-23: 2000 Paringa Individual Vineyard Shiraz (2 bt cork)

M.

JEP62 wrote:

> Is this true?( the part about migration can only be outward) I'm a
> little confused because some say that the pressure of the CO2 in the
> bottle would not prevent O2 from migrating in due to law of partial
> pressures.

??? If by the law of partial pressures, you mean Dalton's Law, then I
fail to see how it applies to this scenario. However, your larger point
about oxygen diffusing against a back pressure is certainly true if the
seal is permeable enough. I know that in the past I've mentioned my own
experience of oxygen permeating Tygon (PETE polymer) tubing which had a
pressurized flow of nitrogen going through it. However, I suspect that
the very compressed cork of the Champagne bottle, combined with the high
pressure of CO2 in the headspace, makes any significant influx of oxygen
a very slow process. However, the longer the bottle sits, the less cork
integrity it has, so I'm sure that a Champagne aged long enough will
indeed oxidize.

Just my $0.02,
Mark Lipton

Salut/Hi Michael Pronay,

le/on 2 Feb 2005 11:00:34 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>Ian Hoare > wrote:
>
>>> What about the Mercurey 1966 under screw-cap at the university
>>> de Dijon?
>
>> Again, what about it? The study you referenced, show that even
>> under Stelvin, traces of oxygen DO get in.
>
>The longer I think about the problem, the less I feel the question
>of oxygen ingress of real importance.

I have to say that I remain unconvinced here. However ....

> Wine can age perfectly under cork, and wine can age perfectly under stelvin - just without TCA
>taint, fruit scalping and random oxidation. Makes *my* choice immediately evident.

And there I think we agree. And I'm also sure that we agree 100% that at the
very least we should have the choice of what closure shoud be used.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Ian Hoare > wrote:

> And there I think we agree. And I'm also sure that we agree 100%
> that at the very least we should have the choice of what closure
> shoud be used.

The article I wrote up about our 1995 Bordeaux tasting ("The Cork
Disaster") to be published in the next issue of "Vinaria" is not
at all friendly with the growers. It will make a storm in a
thimble - since at least a few growers do actually read my annual
10 years after report - and all I can hope for is to slightly lift
blinkers from the Bordelais' heads.

M.

Michael Pronay wrote:

> The longer I think about the problem, the less I feel the question
> of oxigen ingress of real importance. Wine can age perfectly under
> cork, and wine can age perfectly under stelvin - just without TCA
> taint, fruit scalping and random oxidation. Makes *my* choice
> immediately evident.


You have introduced "fruit scalping" rather quickly here without
any additional comments. Please flesh this out and address how the
consumer is expected to deal with it.
Bill

Hi Bi!!
I drink almost exclusively Oz wines (around 90% of my consumption) and
I find much lower rates of TCA than is reported here. In 2004 I opened
4 TCA tainted bottles of which 1 was undrinkable (my partner found them
all undrinkable). I noted 177 bottles opened in this period (that
doesn't count 3 weeks I spent on holiday in the States, tastings, trade
shows, samples etc. but my private collection only). I also drank a few
wines that were past their best or a little too oxidized for unreserved
enjoyment but I don't think this had much to do with the producer but
more my cellar management. This is around 2 - 2.5% taint which would be
fairly indicative from my purely anecdotal evidence. I, like others in
this thread, find this still too high and look forward to being able to
make the choice of which closure I would rather purchase my wine in.
Something I already do with the Rieslings I buy to age.
Cheers Andrew

Bill Loftin > wrote:

>> The longer I think about the problem, the less I feel the
>> question of oxigen ingress of real importance. Wine can age
>> perfectly under cork, and wine can age perfectly under stelvin
>> - just without TCA taint, fruit scalping and random oxidation.
>> Makes *my* choice immediately evident.

> You have introduced "fruit scalping" rather quickly here without
> any additional comments. Please flesh this out and address how
> the consumer is expected to deal with it.

It's the simple fact what many might call an "off bottle": Without
any discernable traces of TCA (mould etc.) or other faulty taints
(oxidation, musty aromas), the wine simply doesn't reflect what it
should be: little to no fruit, a lack of charm, a bottle that
"doesn't ring" - while the back-up bottle does.

These taints are the most serious and the most difficult to pin
down, because you can only do so by *knowing* the wine. It's
almost impossible to find them in blind tastings.

In our Bordeaux '95 tasting, both bottles of Grand Puy-Lacoste
(coming from the chateau) where only so-so, something around 82
points on the Parker scale, or even less. I attribute this
performance to the fruit scalping phenomenon for the simple reason
that GPL '95 a Parker 95/100 wine. It *cannot* taste like this in
good shape.

M.

Michael Pronay wrote:

> It's the simple fact what many might call an "off bottle": Without
> any discernable traces of TCA (mould etc.) or other faulty taints
> (oxidation, musty aromas), the wine simply doesn't reflect what it
> should be: little to no fruit, a lack of charm, a bottle that
> "doesn't ring" - while the back-up bottle does.
> These taints are the most serious and the most difficult to pin
> down, because you can only do so by *knowing* the wine. It's
> almost impossible to find them in blind tastings.

And the "fruit scalping" is caused by bad corks? Corks which
are TCA contaminated but not bad enough to cause the recognizable
corked taste? Or is there some other factor?
Bill

Bill Loftin > wrote:

> And the "fruit scalping" is caused by bad corks?

Seems so, since this phenomenon does not occur under other
closures.

> Corks which are TCA contaminated but not bad enough to cause the
> recognizable corked taste?

I don't know, in fact. It might be this below-theshold TCA or some
other kind of taint - 6 or 7 chemical substances have been
reported tainting wine too, albeit in a much less evident way than
higher TCA concentration.

> Or is there some other factor?

Don't think so.

M.

Try condoms.
"Art Stratemeyer" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Gang,
>
> As an offshoot to the recent post on aging corks and tainted wine,
> I've a question / concern.
>
> I've collected and swilled this stuff for about 35 years now. I'd say
> that in that time, my "average" loss due to poor corks ( both tainted
> and loose ) is about 5-8%.
>
> While I love ( guess cause I'm an old curmudgeon traditionalist ) the
> use of cork, I recognize that there is always room for improvement.
>
> The hard thing for me to discern is not the capablity of the new
> methods for "sealing" a bottle. I'm sure that their "seal" can be a
> perfect one. What I cannot answer is the effect of a "perfect seal"
> on the aging of the wine. Air transfer through a cork, albeit
> miniscule, does have an impact on the aging characteristics.
>
> Would the 27 yQuem or the 47 Huet that I still have one each of in my
> cellar and expect to hold for some time yet, have aged the way that
> they have if they had been perfectly sealed ??
>
> I recognize this is really a bitch for the producers to do any kind of
> an A|B comparison with since the alternative closures are so new.
>
> From my point of view, since the number of years I have left to drink
> are not what they were when I was 20, I'm sticking with cork for what
> I call "cellaring" wine and then for other "new" wines .. ie the
> recent crop of screwcap Sauv Blancs from NZ I've not problem with the
> new closure.
>
> As a bit of a chuckle, last night Betsy grabbed one of those NZ
> screwcaps from the "quaffing" section of our cellar and spent 10
> minutes trying figure how to get the foil off so that she could put in
> the corkscrew !! LOL
>
>
> Art Stratemeyer
> =============================
> http://www.stratsplace.com
> A Community Celebration the Joy of Wine,Gardening and the Arts
>
> Cellar! Wine Software
> http://www.cellarwinesoftware.com

Try condoms.
"Art Stratemeyer" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Gang,
>
> As an offshoot to the recent post on aging corks and tainted wine,
> I've a question / concern.
>
> I've collected and swilled this stuff for about 35 years now. I'd say
> that in that time, my "average" loss due to poor corks ( both tainted
> and loose ) is about 5-8%.
>
> While I love ( guess cause I'm an old curmudgeon traditionalist ) the
> use of cork, I recognize that there is always room for improvement.
>
> The hard thing for me to discern is not the capablity of the new
> methods for "sealing" a bottle. I'm sure that their "seal" can be a
> perfect one. What I cannot answer is the effect of a "perfect seal"
> on the aging of the wine. Air transfer through a cork, albeit
> miniscule, does have an impact on the aging characteristics.
>
> Would the 27 yQuem or the 47 Huet that I still have one each of in my
> cellar and expect to hold for some time yet, have aged the way that
> they have if they had been perfectly sealed ??
>
> I recognize this is really a bitch for the producers to do any kind of
> an A|B comparison with since the alternative closures are so new.
>
> From my point of view, since the number of years I have left to drink
> are not what they were when I was 20, I'm sticking with cork for what
> I call "cellaring" wine and then for other "new" wines .. ie the
> recent crop of screwcap Sauv Blancs from NZ I've not problem with the
> new closure.
>
> As a bit of a chuckle, last night Betsy grabbed one of those NZ
> screwcaps from the "quaffing" section of our cellar and spent 10
> minutes trying figure how to get the foil off so that she could put in
> the corkscrew !! LOL
>
>
> Art Stratemeyer
> =============================
> http://www.stratsplace.com
> A Community Celebration the Joy of Wine,Gardening and the Arts
>
> Cellar! Wine Software
> http://www.cellarwinesoftware.com

so, art ... now that you've told the world that betsy's an idiot, can we
also infer that your paradigm of humor is gilligan;s island?


>>
>> As a bit of a chuckle, last night Betsy grabbed one of those NZ
>> screwcaps from the "quaffing" section of our cellar and spent 10
>> minutes trying figure how to get the foil off so that she could put in
>> the corkscrew !! LOL
>>
>>
>> Art Stratemeyer
>> =============================
>> http://www.stratsplace.com
>> A Community Celebration the Joy of Wine,Gardening and the Arts
>>
>> Cellar! Wine Software
>> http://www.cellarwinesoftware.com
>
>

On Monday, 31 January 2005 11:07:17 UTC+5:30, Art Stratemeyer wrote:
> Hi Gang,
>
> As an offshoot to the recent post on aging corks and tainted wine,
> I've a question / concern.
>
> I've collected and swilled this stuff for about 35 years now. I'd say
> that in that time, my "average" loss due to poor corks ( both tainted
> and loose ) is about 5-8%.
>
> While I love ( guess cause I'm an old curmudgeon traditionalist ) the
> use of cork, I recognize that there is always room for improvement.
>
> The hard thing for me to discern is not the capablity of the new
> methods for "sealing" a bottle. I'm sure that their "seal" can be a
> perfect one. What I cannot answer is the effect of a "perfect seal"
> on the aging of the wine. Air transfer through a cork, albeit
> miniscule, does have an impact on the aging characteristics.
>
> Would the 27 yQuem or the 47 Huet that I still have one each of in my
> cellar and expect to hold for some time yet, have aged the way that
> they have if they had been perfectly sealed ??
>
> I recognize this is really a bitch for the producers to do any kind of
> an A|B comparison with since the alternative closures are so new.
>
> From my point of view, since the number of years I have left to drink
> are not what they were when I was 20, I'm sticking with cork for what
> I call "cellaring" wine and then for other "new" wines .. ie the
> recent crop of screwcap Sauv Blancs from NZ I've not problem with the
> new closure.
>
> As a bit of a chuckle, last night Betsy grabbed one of those NZ
> screwcaps from the "quaffing" section of our cellar and spent 10
> minutes trying figure how to get the foil off so that she could put in
> the corkscrew !! LOL
>
>
> Art Stratemeyer
> =============================
> http://www.stratsplace.com
> A Community Celebration the Joy of Wine,Gardening and the Arts
>
> Cellar! Wine Software
> http://www.cellarwinesoftware.com

Hi Stratemeyer,

I just come across this resource http://www.packagingconnections.com/vinstar/ it says they developed first aluminum wine closure. Its quiet interesting thing right. You can have a look it might give you good information

On Tuesday, February 1, 2005 7:51:29 AM UTC+1, Mark Lipton wrote:
> hermetically sealed bottles aging gracefully, but I remain unconvinced
> that they age in precisely the same way as in bottles sealed under less
> than ideal conditions. I feel that the true test will come from studies
> in which the same wine, bottled under Stelvin and cork is tasted over a
> 30-50 year period and evaluated under double-blind conditions. Only
> then will we have a true test for how well wines develop under Stelvin.
> However, I am 100% behind the use of Stelvin and hope that such
> studies, by the AWRI and others, are carried out soon so that we can
> settle this issue once and for all.


Well, it seems tests are starting to appear.


"California winery that has been bottling a few bottles of good red wine with screw caps every year for about 12 years. They have also taken some of the same wine that is closed with a cork and they have been storing them all right beside each other. Now they have begun to taste the older wines. They have invited very knowledgeable wine people to do this. They are not just relying on their own opinions. The consensus is that there is no difference in these wines, at least up until now."

Read mo http://www.businessinsider.com/why-y...#ixzz3MKfAoDMu

On Friday, December 19, 2014 1:56:59 AM UTC-7, Michael Nielsen wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 1, 2005 7:51:29 AM UTC+1, Mark Lipton wrote:
> > hermetically sealed bottles aging gracefully, but I remain unconvinced
> > that they age in precisely the same way as in bottles sealed under less
> > than ideal conditions. I feel that the true test will come from studies
> > in which the same wine, bottled under Stelvin and cork is tasted over a
> > 30-50 year period and evaluated under double-blind conditions. Only
> > then will we have a true test for how well wines develop under Stelvin.
> > However, I am 100% behind the use of Stelvin and hope that such
> > studies, by the AWRI and others, are carried out soon so that we can
> > settle this issue once and for all.
>
>
> Well, it seems tests are starting to appear.
>
>
> "California winery that has been bottling a few bottles of good red wine with screw caps every year for about 12 years. They have also taken some of the same wine that is closed with a cork and they have been storing them all right beside each other. Now they have begun to taste the older wines. They have invited very knowledgeable wine people to do this. They are not just relying on their own opinions. The consensus is that there is no difference in these wines, at least up until now."
>
> Read mo http://www.businessinsider.com/why-y...#ixzz3MKfAoDMu

I believe that several New Zealand Wineries had done that in the past. They found that screwcap closures were still fine after ten years and the wine in the fresh while ones with cork had faded and picked up darker color and not great tastes. This was with white wine but many of the wineries in Central Otago found the same for their Pinots. I think cork closures should probably go away forever but then, this could spell the end for many businesses such as people who make corkscrews, Coravin, etc as well as the Portugese wine industry.