OK, so this is the first Cote Rotie I ever tasted. I found it in the airport tax free shop for 45euros. I saw on the phone that its is 60E in stores, and Ive never seen a cote rotie from any producer at under that price anyway. And the age was pretty good, too, compared to what you can find otherwise here. One year younger than the northern rhone wines I had lately and loved so much.

I was hoping for an exclusive taste like my newfound lovebirds Courbis Cornas Champelrose 2004, Michele Jemms Muriette Cornas 2006 and Crozes Hermitage 2006 but maybe even better since Cote rotie is so legendary and playing hard to get.

Upon opening , the first whiff made me happy. the scent of a real wine that makes me so happy. So far so good. Nice textures fell in the mouth, slight hints of smoke and olive, like I expected, but it is overshadowed by chocolate and cedar. fine finish, some spice, thyme and rosemary. But there's something wrong.

It is closer related to my napa cab/bourdeaux/argentina/supertuscan cab box than my smoky cornas box!

Granted, I do not know what to expect of a Cote Rotie?

Then I started researching. Seems Guigal is Parker's pet. Like the first famous rotie producer because of parker. Napa cabs is also called "parker wines".

Looked at Guigal website. 36 months oak aging in 50% new oak. Also some viognier???

Even with vintage chart of northern rhone calibration, 2006 is the best year, 2007 second and 2004 third.

Checked the Courbis and Micheles Jemms wines, 0!, 12, 18months in varying ages of oak.

That got me thinking.

Maybe this is what you guys have been talking about.

While I love the complexity oak adds to a wine, it might cloak something that comes out with aging of a less oaked wine.

I didnt like the young cornas/crozes hermitage so much, but with aging something in it transcends.

More oak seems to make a young wine more enjoyable to me: that "scent of a good wine that makes me happy" - it makes a tuscany sangiovese blend, napa cab, rhone syrah, argentina cab, bourdeaux taste almost the same - even if its still really good compared to a cheaper lesser oaked wine.

Rioja is weird in this regard there Tondonia has like 8-10 years in oak and is still unique...

But keeping rioja out of any rules, should I revise my perception of oak as:

- bad wine is bad no matter what
- mediocre wine is best with lots of oak
- really good wine requires little to none oak?

Yeah, Im an engineer so Im always looking for patterns and rules of thumb

However, Im really considering to change my favourite region to Northern Rhone.

I just dont know if it should be limited to Cornas/Crozes Hermitage, or it could also include Hermitage, Saint Estephe, Cote Rotie and Gigondas. Is Cornas/Crozes Hermitage suppsoed to be very different from those other subregions?

On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 8:59:51 PM UTC+1, Michael Nielsen wrote:

> - bad wine is bad no matter what
> - mediocre wine is best with lots of oak
> - really good wine requires little to none oak?

annoying you cant edit in usenet. but one thing to add to these categories is "med wine" - that due to the oak aging they are easier to drink young, while the "really good" category requires more bottle aging to transcend like we know if from vintage port versus late bottle vintage.

On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 3:59:51 PM UTC-4, Michael Nielsen wrote:
> OK, so this is the first Cote Rotie I ever tasted. I found it in the airport tax free shop for 45euros. I saw on the phone that its is 60E in stores, and Ive never seen a cote rotie from any producer at under that price anyway. And the age was pretty good, too, compared to what you can find otherwise here. One year younger than the northern rhone wines I had lately and loved so much.
>
> I was hoping for an exclusive taste like my newfound lovebirds Courbis Cornas Champelrose 2004, Michele Jemms Muriette Cornas 2006 and Crozes Hermitage 2006 but maybe even better since Cote rotie is so legendary and playing hard to get.
>
> Upon opening , the first whiff made me happy. the scent of a real wine that makes me so happy. So far so good. Nice textures fell in the mouth, slight hints of smoke and olive, like I expected, but it is overshadowed by chocolate and cedar. fine finish, some spice, thyme and rosemary. But there's something wrong.
>
> It is closer related to my napa cab/bourdeaux/argentina/supertuscan cab box than my smoky cornas box!
>
> Granted, I do not know what to expect of a Cote Rotie?
>
> Then I started researching. Seems Guigal is Parker's pet. Like the first famous rotie producer because of parker. Napa cabs is also called "parker wines".
>
> Looked at Guigal website. 36 months oak aging in 50% new oak. Also some viognier???
>
> Even with vintage chart of northern rhone calibration, 2006 is the best year, 2007 second and 2004 third.
>
> Checked the Courbis and Micheles Jemms wines, 0!, 12, 18months in varying ages of oak.
>
> That got me thinking.
>
> Maybe this is what you guys have been talking about.
>
> While I love the complexity oak adds to a wine, it might cloak something that comes out with aging of a less oaked wine.
>
> I didnt like the young cornas/crozes hermitage so much, but with aging something in it transcends.
>
> More oak seems to make a young wine more enjoyable to me: that "scent of a good wine that makes me happy" - it makes a tuscany sangiovese blend, napa cab, rhone syrah, argentina cab, bourdeaux taste almost the same - even if its still really good compared to a cheaper lesser oaked wine.
>
> Rioja is weird in this regard there Tondonia has like 8-10 years in oak and is still unique...
>
> But keeping rioja out of any rules, should I revise my perception of oak as:
>
> - bad wine is bad no matter what
> - mediocre wine is best with lots of oak
> - really good wine requires little to none oak?
>
> Yeah, Im an engineer so Im always looking for patterns and rules of thumb
>
> However, Im really considering to change my favourite region to Northern Rhone.
>
> I just dont know if it should be limited to Cornas/Crozes Hermitage, or it could also include Hermitage, Saint Estephe, Cote Rotie and Gigondas. Is Cornas/Crozes Hermitage suppsoed to be very different from those other subregions?

You need to consider that all Oak is not created equally. The type of oak, the size of the barrel, the time in the barrel,the amount of new versus old versus so old that it's basically inert, the amount of and type of char. These all go into the oak profile of a wine and each property and winemaker has their own recipe.

And Tondonia is aged decades in oak. But old or very old oak, so there is
no new oak aroma or flavour at all.

FWIW, I have just purchased Guigal Cote Rotie Brune et Blonde 2009 at Vente
à la Proprieté at 37 euro shipped to Spain. (a 6 bottle case). Before you
ask, I never had a Guigal, this was a purchase split with friends.

On Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 7:29:02 PM UTC+1, santiago wrote:
> And Tondonia is aged decades in oak. But old or very old oak, so there is
> no new oak aroma or flavour at all.
>
> FWIW, I have just purchased Guigal Cote Rotie Brune et Blonde 2009 at Vente
> à la Proprieté at 37 euro shipped to Spain. (a 6 bottle case). Before you
> ask, I never had a Guigal, this was a purchase split with friends.

Do you have other experiences with cote rotie?

On Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 4:39:18 PM UTC-4, Michael Nielsen wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 7:29:02 PM UTC+1, santiago wrote:
> > And Tondonia is aged decades in oak. But old or very old oak, so there is
> > no new oak aroma or flavour at all.
> >
> > FWIW, I have just purchased Guigal Cote Rotie Brune et Blonde 2009 at Vente
> > à la Proprieté at 37 euro shipped to Spain. (a 6 bottle case). Before you
> > ask, I never had a Guigal, this was a purchase split with friends.
>
> Do you have other experiences with cote rotie?

The Guigals including Ampuis and the La La's, Rene Rostaing, Delas and St Cosme are currently in my cellar.

On 5/26/15 3:59 PM, Michael Nielsen wrote:
> It is closer related to my napa cab/bourdeaux/argentina/supertuscan
> cab box than my smoky cornas box!
>
> Granted, I do not know what to expect of a Cote Rotie?
>
> Then I started researching. Seems Guigal is Parker's pet. Like the
> first famous rotie producer because of parker. Napa cabs is also
> called "parker wines".
>
> Looked at Guigal website. 36 months oak aging in 50% new oak. Also
> some viognier???
>
> Even with vintage chart of northern rhone calibration, 2006 is the
> best year, 2007 second and 2004 third.
>
> Checked the Courbis and Micheles Jemms wines, 0!, 12, 18months in
> varying ages of oak.
>
> That got me thinking.
>
> Maybe this is what you guys have been talking about.
>
> While I love the complexity oak adds to a wine, it might cloak
> something that comes out with aging of a less oaked wine.
>
> I didnt like the young cornas/crozes hermitage so much, but with
> aging something in it transcends.
>

Yes, the N Rhone Syrahs provide an excellent insight into the problems
associated with "modernist" winemaking (new oak, barriques,
sur-maturité). The Cote-Roties of Guigal are heavier and more oaky than
the more "traditional" Cote-Roties of others such as Marius
Gentaz-Dervieux (who's now retired and whose wines sell for
stratospheric prices). The wines of Cote-Rotie were originally prized
for their delicacy (for Syrah) and aromaticity. Cornas isn't as pricey
or as "sexy" as Cote-Rotie, so it has largely avoided the excesses of
its pricier cousins. Traditional Cornas was huge, rustic and
undrinkable in its youth, but that style has lately been tamed to make
the wines more approachable in their youth. They still benefit from
aging, though.

One of the world's experts on the wines of the N Rhone, Jonathan
Livingstone-Learmonth (http://www.drinkrhone.com) has said that, with
enough aging, Guigal's Cote-Roties do develop into lovely examples of
aged Syrah and become recognizably Cote-Rotie. He may be correct, but
for the prices he charges I'm not going to try the experiment.

> More oak seems to make a young wine more enjoyable to me: that "scent
> of a good wine that makes me happy" - it makes a tuscany sangiovese
> blend, napa cab, rhone syrah, argentina cab, bourdeaux taste almost
> the same - even if its still really good compared to a cheaper lesser
> oaked wine.
>
> Rioja is weird in this regard there Tondonia has like 8-10 years in
> oak and is still unique...
>
> But keeping rioja out of any rules, should I revise my perception of
> oak as:
>
> - bad wine is bad no matter what - mediocre wine is best with lots of
> oak - really good wine requires little to none oak?
>
> Yeah, Im an engineer so Im always looking for patterns and rules of
> thumb
>
> However, Im really considering to change my favourite region to
> Northern Rhone.
>
> I just dont know if it should be limited to Cornas/Crozes Hermitage,
> or it could also include Hermitage, Saint Estephe, Cote Rotie and
> Gigondas. Is Cornas/Crozes Hermitage suppsoed to be very different
> from those other subregions?
>

As Bill says, oak is a complex issue. Many of my favorite wines, wines
that develop into something special with age, see a lot of new oak.
With time, that oak "integrates" into the wine. However, comparatively
few oaky young wines will integrate that oak -- it requires enough fruit
and structure (acids and tannins) to age gracefully and absorb that oak.
The quality of the oak used also affects this.

Regarding the N Rhone, each appellation is distinct in character.
Cote-Rotie is graceful and "Burgundian". Classic examples are available
from Levet and Burgaud, but they're quite expensive.

Hermitage is the most highly regarded appellation. The wines are big and
brawny but also show some elegance. The most famous estate there is
Chave but is now too pricey to consider. Jaboulet also makes a famous
Hermitage (not cheap, either). I am not a fan of Chapoutier's, but you
might like them.

St. Joseph is considered an "up-and-coming" region. The wines aren't as
big as Hermitage or as aromatic as Cote-Rotie, but are good, honest
expressions of Syrah. The most highly regarded producer there is Gonon,
but good examples are also made by Faury, Faurie and Chave. These wines
are not yet so terribly expensive.

Crozes-Hermitage is a mixed bag. It benefits from the fame of
Hermitage, but much of the land is located not on hillsides (like
Hermitage) but on the flat plateau away from the river and produces
indifferent wine. My favorite producer there is Alain Graillot, but
Jaboulet makes a good one too, as does Albert Belle.

Cornas, as I said, has traditionally made very rustic, tannic wines.
These days, the best examples are made by Auguste Clape, Thierry
Allemand (very different - more Burgundian), Vincent Paris and Domaine
du Tunnel.

St. Estephe is in Bordeaux and Gigondas is in the S Rhone (and
Grenache-based).

Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

Michael Nielsen > wrote in
:

>
> Do you have other experiences with cote rotie?

No, not really. I had another bottle of Guigal (a La Mouline) a few years
ago, and it was stunning.

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 12:00:21 PM UTC-4, santiago wrote:
> Michael Nielsen > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> > Do you have other experiences with cote rotie?
>
> No, not really. I had another bottle of Guigal (a La Mouline) a few years
> ago, and it was stunning.

My experiemce with the "LA-LA" wines of Guigal is similar. I've had all three a number of times and all have been stunning.

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 4:50:23 PM UTC+2, Mark Lipton wrote:
>

Nice overview.

I always thought that Cote Rotie was the top subregion in north rhone. Surprised it is actually Hermitage.

So far with what I've tasted I put Cornas as number one, with my limited tastings. North Rhone is sparse here, except C.H. Many stores dont have a single north rhone wine.

And I agree that crozes hermitage is a mixed bag. completely different styles inside that name. Some of them are very sirupy dense, and some might as well be Cornas.

The only available St. Joseph wine in my town is Delas and it is more expensive than Cornas.

A funny thing is that the only name you mention I have seen here is Vincent Paris. I like his Cornas Granite 60. Fitting name, since the best quality I like in Cornas is the gravel dust flavor. The store also has his Crozes Hermitage. Is that worth picking up?

The producers available here a georges reynaud, vincent paris, franck balthazar, delas, courbis, guigal.

Hmm, actually I see two producers in a one of my stores I havent tried yet: Alain Verset (Cornas), and Yann Chave ( crozes hermitage and hermitage.) I assume thats the Chave you mentioned, except the price isnt that high (90euro). Delas hermitages Ive seen are 170 euro.

On Saturday, May 30, 2015 at 4:14:07 PM UTC+2, Michael Nielsen wrote:
> The producers available here a georges reynaud, vincent paris, franck balthazar, delas, courbis, guigal.
>

And ofc Michalas St. Jemms.

Michael Nielsen > wrote in
:


>
> Hmm, actually I see two producers in a one of my stores I havent tried
> yet: Alain Verset (Cornas), and Yann Chave ( crozes hermitage and
> hermitage.) I assume thats the Chave you mentioned, except the price
> isnt that high (90euro). Delas hermitages Ive seen are 170 euro.

Yann Chave is not the same as the ultra-famous Jean-Louis Chave.

Clape Rennaisance Cornas, which should be around 50 euros, is a great wine
almost every year.

Michael Nielsen wrote:

> The only available St. Joseph wine in my town is Delas and it is more
> expensive than Cornas.

Delas Freres are one of the four large negociants (buy grapes/wine and
resell under their own label) of the N Rhone. In my order of
preference, they'd be Jaboulet, Chapoutier, Guigal and Delas. Their
wines aren't bad, but rather lacking character (in my opinion).

>
> A funny thing is that the only name you mention I have seen here is
> Vincent Paris. I like his Cornas Granite 60. Fitting name, since the
> best quality I like in Cornas is the gravel dust flavor. The store
> also has his Crozes Hermitage. Is that worth picking up?

Cornas Granite 60 gets its name from the age of the vines (60 years).
It's a very fine Cornas. A friend of mine has proposed a "Rule of 15"
for wines like this: wait 15 years from vintage to drink them.

>
> The producers available here a georges reynaud, vincent paris,
> franck balthazar, delas, courbis, guigal.

The Paris and Balthazar are quality producers. Courbis has improved in
recent years, I'm told. Delas and Guigal (see above).


>
> Hmm, actually I see two producers in a one of my stores I havent
> tried yet: Alain Verset (Cornas), and Yann Chave ( crozes hermitage
> and hermitage.) I assume thats the Chave you mentioned, except the
> price isnt that high (90euro). Delas hermitages Ive seen are 170
> euro.

Alain Verset in the nephew of Noel Verset, the standard-bearer for
traditional Cornas, now sadly retired. I have not tried the nephew's
wines, but he certainly has a good name...

Yann Chaze is a lesser producer than JL Chave (the current generation
there, in a domaine going since the 1400s). The wines aren't bad, but
are a touch "modern" (new oak) and he doesn't have the quality of
vineyards owned by more famous Chaves.

Mark Lipton

On Sunday, May 31, 2015 at 5:14:41 AM UTC+2, Mark Lipton wrote:
> Alain Verset in the nephew of Noel Verset, the standard-bearer for
> traditional Cornas, now sadly retired. I have not tried the nephew's
> wines, but he certainly has a good name...
>
> Yann Chaze is a lesser producer than JL Chave (the current generation
> there, in a domaine going since the 1400s). The wines aren't bad, but
> are a touch "modern" (new oak) and he doesn't have the quality of
> vineyards owned by more famous Chaves.

> Santiago wrote: A Clape Rennaisaance

Looks like I have some more Cornas to explore this year both in my town and they have A Clape near my brothers town, so I can pick one up when I visit him

> > Alain Verset in the nephew of Noel Verset, the standard-bearer for
> > traditional Cornas, now sadly retired. I have not tried the nephew's
> > wines, but he certainly has a good name...

Making lamb shanks now and opened the Alain Verset Cornas. I can already tell that it is very good. amazing PQR, seeing that its the cheapest cornas available here, its a 2012, and it already has that stony smoky note that I love in Cornas, but so far only find in older Cornas. Yum yum