On Thursday, January 2, 2014 9:15:39 AM UTC-6, DaleW wrote:

I wanted to try my new Durand (I liked!).

I also bought a Durand old wine bottle opener and it is scheduled to arrive in2 days if the UPS truck is not delayed by bad weather.

I have a few old wines going back to the early 1800's, so I should be able to give the Durand a very severe test. I have hopes that both a screw and two side blades will work on more bottles than a corkscrew with only a screw or 2 blades. There has to be some limit for the Durand though because at least a little downward force must be applied to the cork to start either a screw or 2 blades. I have seen some very old wines that have corks completely free with the wine sealed by only the metal capsule. I would not taste such a wine, since it might not be safe because many old capsules are lead. There are a few devices to fish a cork out of the bottle, and some work fairly well. I also have port tongs which work very well. For me, I would use port tongs as a last resort, because they require a fireplace or range with gas burners to heat enough. Else you can start an outdoor charcoal grill to heat the tongs.

On 1/5/2014 1:29 AM, cwdjrxyz wrote:
> On Thursday, January 2, 2014 9:15:39 AM UTC-6, DaleW wrote:
>
> I wanted to try my new Durand (I liked!).
>
> I also bought a Durand old wine bottle opener and it is scheduled to arrive in2 days if the UPS truck is not delayed by bad weather.
>
> I have a few old wines going back to the early 1800's, so I should be able to give the Durand a very severe test. I have hopes that both a screw and two side blades will work on more bottles than a corkscrew with only a screw or 2 blades. There has to be some limit for the Durand though because at least a little downward force must be applied to the cork to start either a screw or 2 blades. I have seen some very old wines that have corks completely free with the wine sealed by only the metal capsule. I would not taste such a wine, since it might not be safe because many old capsules are lead. There are a few devices to fish a cork out of the bottle, and some work fairly well. I also have port tongs which work very well. For me, I would use port tongs as a last resort, because they require a fireplace or range with gas burners to heat enough. Else you can start an outdoor charcoal grill to heat the tongs.
>
Of course a little less aggressive and yet equally effective is to
simply push the cork into the bottle. Doesn't work on stubborn corks but
then the Durand would work well.


--
Joseph Coulter

On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 16:34:29 -0500, Joseph Coulter
> wrote:

> On 1/5/2014 1:29 AM, cwdjrxyz wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 2, 2014 9:15:39 AM UTC-6, DaleW wrote:
> >
> > I wanted to try my new Durand (I liked!).
> >
> > I also bought a Durand old wine bottle opener and it is scheduled to arrive in2 days if the UPS truck is not delayed by bad weather.
> >
> > I have a few old wines going back to the early 1800's, so I should be able to give the Durand a very severe test. I have hopes that both a screw and two side blades will work on more bottles than a corkscrew with only a screw or 2 blades. There has to be some limit for the Durand though because at least a little downward force must be applied to the cork to start either a screw or 2 blades. I have seen some very old wines that have corks completely free with the wine sealed by only the metal capsule. I would not taste such a wine, since it might not be safe because many old capsules are lead. There are a few devices to fish a cork out of the bottle, and some work fairly well. I also have port tongs which work very well. For me, I would use port tongs as a last resort, because they require a fireplace or range with gas burners to heat enough. Else you can start an outdoor charcoal grill to heat the tongs.
> >
> Of course a little less aggressive and yet equally effective is to
> simply push the cork into the bottle. Doesn't work on stubborn corks but
> then the Durand would work well.



LOL. Pushing the cork into the bottle is what I always end up doing!
Even if I didn't want to, it ends up happening.

But I'd like to see the Durand (which I never heard of until Dale
mentioned it) in action, even though its price is way too much for me.

On Sunday, January 5, 2014 7:28:43 PM UTC-5, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 16:34:29 -0500, Joseph Coulter
>
>
> LOL. Pushing the cork into the bottle is what I always end up doing!
> Even if I didn't want to, it ends up happening.
> But I'd like to see the Durand (which I never heard of until Dale
> mentioned it) in action, even though its price is way too much for me.

The Durand is the perfect Christmas gift. I have admired them as friends used, but there's just no way I would pay that much. However, if I didn't drop a hint to Betsy, she was sure to spend $100-150 on something that I probably hadn't wanted/needed. So to me the perfect Christmas gift is something that I wanted, but felt too expensive.
They are really only intended for older corks, so if one doesn't open those fairly often even more unrealistically priced.

I would guess that there are some extremely loose corks that might go in at slightest touch (in which case just decant, of course). But the screw is very sharp and well-angled, so I think 99% of time one can get it set without movement.

Bill, look forward to your report. One word of caution, just look at (simple) instructions. Some people apparently have tried to re-insert the "ah so" part in the slot in handle to screw when opening a bottle, that is only for storage.

On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 10:17:11 AM UTC-6, DaleW wrote:
> On Sunday, January 5, 2014 7:28:43 PM UTC-5, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 16:34:29 -0500, Joseph Coulter
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > LOL. Pushing the cork into the bottle is what I always end up doing!
>
> > Even if I didn't want to, it ends up happening.
>
> > But I'd like to see the Durand (which I never heard of until Dale
>
> > mentioned it) in action, even though its price is way too much for me.
>
>
>
> The Durand is the perfect Christmas gift. I have admired them as friends used, but there's just no way I would pay that much. However, if I didn't drop a hint to Betsy, she was sure to spend $100-150 on something that I probably hadn't wanted/needed. So to me the perfect Christmas gift is something that I wanted, but felt too expensive.
>
> They are really only intended for older corks, so if one doesn't open those fairly often even more unrealistically priced.
>
>
>
> I would guess that there are some extremely loose corks that might go in at slightest touch (in which case just decant, of course). But the screw is very sharp and well-angled, so I think 99% of time one can get it set without movement.

>

Before using any opening device on a very old wine,first remove any sealing wax and/or metal capsule(usually lead)that may cover the top of the cork. If part of the cork is above the top of the bottle, slice it off with a very sharp paring knife. Then run a very sharp, small, paring knife tip all around the inside of the neck for a very short distance down. Then clean off the cork of the bottle using water if necessary. If you found a metal capsule and the wine is fairly to very old, and there is any evidence that the wine has come in contact with the metal capsule, please discard the wine without tasting.

Quite a few very old corks just crumble when using a screw only and drop these crumbs into the wine rather than a whole cork. In such a case, filtering of the wine may be required. Also the old cork may be stuck just at the contact between the cork and neck. An opener with two prongs will help "un-glue" this contact point. The two prongs may have to be given considerable downward force to seat between the glass and cork. Using the small paring knife trick may allow insertion of the prongs with less force. Also just a little slip can result in a cut finger. Buy your own knife and do not dull one belonging to a spouse. Else he/she may solve your problem by using the back of a meat cleaver that came with an expensive knife set to open the bottle!

> Bill, look forward to your report. One word of caution, just look at (simple) instructions. Some people apparently have tried to re-insert the "ah so" part in the slot in handle to screw when opening a bottle, that is only for storage.

On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 05:52:21 -0800 (PST), cwdjrxyz
> wrote:

> If you found a metal capsule and the wine is fairly to very old, and there is any evidence
> that the wine has come in contact with the metal capsule, please discard the wine without
> tasting.



Why? Are you concerned about lead poisoning>? Could you consume a
significant amount of lead that way?

On Sunday, January 12, 2014 10:25:11 AM UTC-6, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 05:52:21 -0800 (PST), cwdjrxyz
>
> > wrote:
>
>
>
> > If you found a metal capsule and the wine is fairly to very old, and there is any evidence
>
> > that the wine has come in contact with the metal capsule, please discard the wine without
>
> > tasting.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Why? Are you concerned about lead poisoning>? Could you consume a
>
> significant amount of lead that way?

Perhaps - better safe than sorry. Many owners of older wines, having corks starting to leak or that are feared to start leaking soon,apply sealing wax over an old metal capsule(often lead). Thus the wine may contact the metal from the inside. One would have to do a chemical analysis to determine if the lead content is high enough to cause worry. The allowed lead content for liquids for drinking has greatly changed over many decades. Some even worry about the lead content of wines and spirits stored in high lead content fine crystal decanters for many years. Many of the substances contained in wine can react with lead over a long time period. Some organic acids are prime suspects.

>
> Perhaps - better safe than sorry. Many owners of older wines, having corks starting to leak or that are feared to start leaking soon,apply sealing wax over an old metal capsule(often lead). Thus the wine may contact the metal from the inside. One would have to do a chemical analysis to determine if the lead content is high enough to cause worry. The allowed lead content for liquids for drinking has greatly changed over many decades. Some even worry about the lead content of wines and spirits stored in high lead content fine crystal decanters for many years. Many of the substances contained in wine can react with lead over a long time period. Some organic acids are prime suspects.

I personally don't store any wine in lead decanters. Leaching increases greatly over time, and the higher the alcohol the faster it leaches. I also take great care to wipe top of any pre-1990 bottle carefully once capsule removed (I realize likely little exposure from wine traveling over lip, but better safe). But I think if what we are discussing is seepage or a saturated cork indicating that wine might have had some contact, if wine smelled sound I would risk trying. We get some lead even in our drinking water, I think a glass of wine that might have some small contamination is unlikely to have any health effects.

On 1/12/14 11:25 AM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 05:52:21 -0800 (PST), cwdjrxyz
> > wrote:
>
>> If you found a metal capsule and the wine is fairly to very old, and there is any evidence
>> that the wine has come in contact with the metal capsule, please discard the wine without
>> tasting.
>
>
>
> Why? Are you concerned about lead poisoning>? Could you consume a
> significant amount of lead that way?

The problem with lead, and any heavy metal, is that it's a cumulative
poison, so repeated consumption of sublethal doses can prove just as bad
in the long term. There's no question that you can have a significant
deposit of lead oxide and lead acetate on the inner rim of older
bottles, so some care to remove the lead salts is certainly in order.
As Dale and CWD Jr say, lead from leaded glass decanters is also a
concern if one stores Port or Sherry in such decanters.

Mark Lipton


--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 21:58:50 -0800 (PST), cwdjrxyz
> wrote:

> On Sunday, January 12, 2014 10:25:11 AM UTC-6, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
> > On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 05:52:21 -0800 (PST), cwdjrxyz
> >
> > > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > If you found a metal capsule and the wine is fairly to very old, and there is any evidence
> >
> > > that the wine has come in contact with the metal capsule, please discard the wine without
> >
> > > tasting.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Why? Are you concerned about lead poisoning>? Could you consume a
> >
> > significant amount of lead that way?
>
> Perhaps - better safe than sorry. Many owners of older wines, having corks starting to leak or that are feared to start leaking soon,apply sealing wax over an old metal capsule(often lead). Thus the wine may contact the metal from the inside. One would have to do a chemical analysis to determine if the lead content is high enough to cause worry. The allowed lead content for liquids for drinking has greatly changed over many decades. Some even worry about the lead content of wines and spirits stored in high lead content fine crystal decanters for many years. Many of the substances contained in wine can react with lead over a long time period. Some organic acids are prime suspects.



OK thanks for the clarification. But the amount of lead you could
consume from contact with a lead capsule has to be much smaller than
from a high lead content fine crystal decanter. Couple that with my
drinking very few older wines (because of cost, not choice), it's just
something that I don't worry about. And since I'm 76, the risk is
lower for me than it probably is for you.

"Ken Blake, MVP" > writes:

> On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 21:58:50 -0800 (PST), cwdjrxyz
> > wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, January 12, 2014 10:25:11 AM UTC-6, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
> > > On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 05:52:21 -0800 (PST), cwdjrxyz
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > If you found a metal capsule and the wine is fairly to very old, and there is any evidence
> > >
> > > > that the wine has come in contact with the metal capsule, please discard the wine without
> > >
> > > > tasting.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Why? Are you concerned about lead poisoning>? Could you consume a
> > >
> > > significant amount of lead that way?
> >
> > Perhaps - better safe than sorry. Many owners of older wines,
> > having corks starting to leak or that are feared to start leaking
> > soon,apply sealing wax over an old metal capsule(often lead). Thus
> > the wine may contact the metal from the inside. One would have to
> > do a chemical analysis to determine if the lead content is high
> > enough to cause worry. The allowed lead content for liquids for
> > drinking has greatly changed over many decades. Some even worry
> > about the lead content of wines and spirits stored in high lead
> > content fine crystal decanters for many years. Many of the
> > substances contained in wine can react with lead over a long time
> > period. Some organic acids are prime suspects.
>
> OK thanks for the clarification. But the amount of lead you could
> consume from contact with a lead capsule has to be much smaller than
> from a high lead content fine crystal decanter.

I don't think it is something you should worry about, but let me point
out that a few hours in contact with a leaded crystal decanter should
result in _very_ little lead making it into the wine.

Whereas a few years in contact with a lead capsule may result in more
lead (though I expect still not that much) making it into the wine.

Both variables (the lead in lead crystal is harder to get out of the
crystal than the lead in lead foil, and the time of contact in
decanter is generally quite small whereas the time of contact with
foil could be decades) suggest that of the two sources of contact, the
foil one has more potential to be serious.

I definitely won't be giving a lot of old wine in foil capsuled
bottles to my two-year-old.

On 13 Jan 2014 14:20:53 -0800, Doug Anderson
> wrote:

> "Ken Blake, MVP" > writes:
>

> > OK thanks for the clarification. But the amount of lead you could
> > consume from contact with a lead capsule has to be much smaller than
> > from a high lead content fine crystal decanter.
>
> I don't think it is something you should worry about, but let me point
> out that a few hours in contact with a leaded crystal decanter should
> result in _very_ little lead making it into the wine.
>
> Whereas a few years in contact with a lead capsule may result in more
> lead (though I expect still not that much) making it into the wine.


You are certainly right about a few hours vs a few decades. But on the
other hand (and this is what I meant) almost all the wine is in
contact with the decanter and only a tiny amount (if any) is in
contact with the capsule.