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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
R&M
 
Posts: n/a
Default "The deal closer"

Looking for suggestions to enhance my chances to "close the deal" with
my new female love next weekend...i will be cooking filet mignon and
want a great wine to amplify the dinner (i.e. can it be done for under
$25)...then i will purchase a creme brulee dessert and wondered about
great desert wines?...my friend recommended purchasing J's "ratafia"
dessert wine?

all suggestions would be appreciated!

R in san diego
  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kieran Dyke
 
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Default


"R&M" > wrote in message
m...
> Looking for suggestions to enhance my chances to "close the deal" with
> my new female love next weekend...i will be cooking filet mignon and
> want a great wine to amplify the dinner (i.e. can it be done for under
> $25)...then i will purchase a creme brulee dessert and wondered about
> great desert wines?...my friend recommended purchasing J's "ratafia"
> dessert wine?
>
> all suggestions would be appreciated!
>
> R in san diego


With a creme brulee, you couldn't do better than an Australian Rutherglen
Tokay.

Kieran


  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
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Default

Salut/Hi R&M,

le/on 18 Sep 2004 18:42:23 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

>Looking for suggestions to enhance my chances to "close the deal" with
>my new female love next weekend..


>all suggestions would be appreciated!


Can't improve on Ogden Nash

Candy
is Dandy
but Liquor
is quicker.

As a second authority Michael Flanders said

"Have some madeira m'dear!"

The moral of the story is "keep it potent".

As for dessert wines, The late and great Cyril Ray is against Beaumes de
Venise

"I was sitting there, taking my ease,
and enjoying my Beaumes de Venise
With a charming young poppet,
But she told me to stop it,
As my fingers crept up past her knees..."

He warns you to beware of Irish Mist.

"With the coffee, Tom said, '"I insist
That we each have a large Irish Mist,'
But then was unable
To make it with Mabel
On account of having
become
alcoholically
incapacitated...

But if that does happen, Mr Ray has a sovereign remedy

"There's this to be said for Verdicchio
That whenever the going gets Sticchio,
It increases the strength
and the breadth and the length
when applied to the Gentleman's pricchio..."



--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Salut/Hi Kieran Dyke,

le/on Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:46:55 +1000, tu disais/you said:-


>
>With a creme brulee, you couldn't do better than an Australian Rutherglen
>Tokay.


Muscadelle, if you please. The use of the name Tokay should be reserved for
the original - from Hungary. Then it could be exported without problems.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Salut/Hi Kieran Dyke,

le/on Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:46:55 +1000, tu disais/you said:-


>
>With a creme brulee, you couldn't do better than an Australian Rutherglen
>Tokay.


Muscadelle, if you please. The use of the name Tokay should be reserved for
the original - from Hungary. Then it could be exported without problems.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website


  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ian Hoare > wrote:

> "Have some madeira m'dear!"


Ian, I have been on the island from Aug 30 to Sept 6 - my first
trip. Really amazing, and nothing I have ever seen like (but then
I am not a frequent traveller).

The wines are from quite good to sublime, and we tasted back to
1875(!). Madeira is a wine that puts every common rule upside
down.

First, never store it on the side, always upright. Second, once
opened it keeps its quality for months, if not years, it's quasi
indestructible. Third, I once asked a producer if he ever has has
a bottle "over the hill". He did not even know the expression.
"Yes, very seldom a corked bottle or a rare single one turned bad
- but never a whole batch!".

In the IVM, the "Instituto do Vinho da Madeira" they do quite a
lot of things (including a tasting of every batch leaving the
island; bulk exports are reduced to batches that go to the
food/sweets industry) - but upon my question they openly admitted
that the do not tend to investigate into the legend (or truth?)
that sercial was riesling.

Yes, Madeira is quite a mystery.

M.
  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Pronay
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ian Hoare > wrote:

> "Have some madeira m'dear!"


Ian, I have been on the island from Aug 30 to Sept 6 - my first
trip. Really amazing, and nothing I have ever seen like (but then
I am not a frequent traveller).

The wines are from quite good to sublime, and we tasted back to
1875(!). Madeira is a wine that puts every common rule upside
down.

First, never store it on the side, always upright. Second, once
opened it keeps its quality for months, if not years, it's quasi
indestructible. Third, I once asked a producer if he ever has has
a bottle "over the hill". He did not even know the expression.
"Yes, very seldom a corked bottle or a rare single one turned bad
- but never a whole batch!".

In the IVM, the "Instituto do Vinho da Madeira" they do quite a
lot of things (including a tasting of every batch leaving the
island; bulk exports are reduced to batches that go to the
food/sweets industry) - but upon my question they openly admitted
that the do not tend to investigate into the legend (or truth?)
that sercial was riesling.

Yes, Madeira is quite a mystery.

M.
  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Stanton
 
Posts: n/a
Default

a quart of "andre' cold duck" always worked for me throughout high school.
it's even more effective (and eventually less messy) on an empty stomach -
don't feed her!


"R&M" > wrote in message
m...
> Looking for suggestions to enhance my chances to "close the deal" with
> my new female love next weekend...i will be cooking filet mignon and
> want a great wine to amplify the dinner (i.e. can it be done for under
> $25)...then i will purchase a creme brulee dessert and wondered about
> great desert wines?...my friend recommended purchasing J's "ratafia"
> dessert wine?
>
> all suggestions would be appreciated!
>
> R in san diego



  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Stanton
 
Posts: n/a
Default

a quart of "andre' cold duck" always worked for me throughout high school.
it's even more effective (and eventually less messy) on an empty stomach -
don't feed her!


"R&M" > wrote in message
m...
> Looking for suggestions to enhance my chances to "close the deal" with
> my new female love next weekend...i will be cooking filet mignon and
> want a great wine to amplify the dinner (i.e. can it be done for under
> $25)...then i will purchase a creme brulee dessert and wondered about
> great desert wines?...my friend recommended purchasing J's "ratafia"
> dessert wine?
>
> all suggestions would be appreciated!
>
> R in san diego



  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick R.
 
Posts: n/a
Default

R&M wrote:
> Looking for suggestions to enhance my chances to "close the deal" with
> my new female love next weekend...i will be cooking filet mignon and
> want a great wine to amplify the dinner (i.e. can it be done for under
> $25)...then i will purchase a creme brulee dessert and wondered about
> great desert wines?...my friend recommended purchasing J's "ratafia"
> dessert wine?
>
> all suggestions would be appreciated!
>
> R in san diego

Hi "R",
A filet mignon would certainly demand a good Cabernet or Zinfandel,
and for <$25 the selections (especially in California) are endless.
Consult your local dealer for suggestions.
For dessert: I don't have much experience here, but a good Muscato
d'Asti from Italy or even a Muscato d'Oro from Mondavi might be good.

Just my $0.02,
Dick



  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick R.
 
Posts: n/a
Default

R&M wrote:
> Looking for suggestions to enhance my chances to "close the deal" with
> my new female love next weekend...i will be cooking filet mignon and
> want a great wine to amplify the dinner (i.e. can it be done for under
> $25)...then i will purchase a creme brulee dessert and wondered about
> great desert wines?...my friend recommended purchasing J's "ratafia"
> dessert wine?
>
> all suggestions would be appreciated!
>
> R in san diego

Hi "R",
A filet mignon would certainly demand a good Cabernet or Zinfandel,
and for <$25 the selections (especially in California) are endless.
Consult your local dealer for suggestions.
For dessert: I don't have much experience here, but a good Muscato
d'Asti from Italy or even a Muscato d'Oro from Mondavi might be good.

Just my $0.02,
Dick

  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kieran Dyke
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> Salut/Hi Kieran Dyke,
>
> le/on Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:46:55 +1000, tu disais/you said:-
>
>
> >
> >With a creme brulee, you couldn't do better than an Australian Rutherglen
> >Tokay.

>
> Muscadelle, if you please. The use of the name Tokay should be reserved

for
> the original - from Hungary. Then it could be exported without problems.
>
> --
> All the Best
> Ian Hoare
> http://www.souvigne.com
> mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website


Is Tokay a place name? If it isn't, why couldn't it be made anywhere?
Fortified Muscadelle doesn't have the same ring to it.

Kieran


  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kieran Dyke
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> Salut/Hi Kieran Dyke,
>
> le/on Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:46:55 +1000, tu disais/you said:-
>
>
> >
> >With a creme brulee, you couldn't do better than an Australian Rutherglen
> >Tokay.

>
> Muscadelle, if you please. The use of the name Tokay should be reserved

for
> the original - from Hungary. Then it could be exported without problems.
>
> --
> All the Best
> Ian Hoare
> http://www.souvigne.com
> mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website


Is Tokay a place name? If it isn't, why couldn't it be made anywhere?
Fortified Muscadelle doesn't have the same ring to it.

Kieran


  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
st.helier
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In reply to R&M's dilemma, "Dick R." threw in his $0.02 thus......

> > Looking for suggestions to enhance my chances to "close the deal"
> > with my new female love next weekend...
> > i will be cooking filet mignon and want a great wine to amplify
> > the dinner (i.e. can it be done for under $25)...
> > then i will purchase a creme brulee dessert and wondered about
> > great desert wines?...


> A filet mignon would certainly demand a good Cabernet or Zinfandel,
> and for <$25 the selections (especially in California) are endless.


I am not so sure Dick.

True filet mignon is a very tender cut, but with very delicate flavours.
More often than not, it is with an accompanying sauce incorporating the pan
juices, thus the ingredients of this sauce often influence the wine most
suitable to accompany the meal.

If the sauce itself is delicate, often a lighter Pinot Noir or Burgundy
would be a better choice.

In it's simplest form, crème brûlée is cream, egg yolk, sugar and vanilla
topped with caramelised sugar.

When considering the dessert, in order for any pairing to work, the wine
should be as sweet or sweeter than the dessert.

I also believe that a wine can be too "light" or too "heavy" irrespective of
sweetness.

Crème brûlée is something I believe can stand a wine which is both very
sweet and weighty.

To me, full bodied Sauternes or Montbazillac; a 6-putt Tokaji or a
Rutherglen Muscat.

The most unusual wine I ever had with CB was an odd-ball from here in New
Zealand - a Botrytised Chardonnay: very sweet and hints of oak - this
worked quite well !

--

st.helier


  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
st.helier
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In reply to R&M's dilemma, "Dick R." threw in his $0.02 thus......

> > Looking for suggestions to enhance my chances to "close the deal"
> > with my new female love next weekend...
> > i will be cooking filet mignon and want a great wine to amplify
> > the dinner (i.e. can it be done for under $25)...
> > then i will purchase a creme brulee dessert and wondered about
> > great desert wines?...


> A filet mignon would certainly demand a good Cabernet or Zinfandel,
> and for <$25 the selections (especially in California) are endless.


I am not so sure Dick.

True filet mignon is a very tender cut, but with very delicate flavours.
More often than not, it is with an accompanying sauce incorporating the pan
juices, thus the ingredients of this sauce often influence the wine most
suitable to accompany the meal.

If the sauce itself is delicate, often a lighter Pinot Noir or Burgundy
would be a better choice.

In it's simplest form, crème brûlée is cream, egg yolk, sugar and vanilla
topped with caramelised sugar.

When considering the dessert, in order for any pairing to work, the wine
should be as sweet or sweeter than the dessert.

I also believe that a wine can be too "light" or too "heavy" irrespective of
sweetness.

Crème brûlée is something I believe can stand a wine which is both very
sweet and weighty.

To me, full bodied Sauternes or Montbazillac; a 6-putt Tokaji or a
Rutherglen Muscat.

The most unusual wine I ever had with CB was an odd-ball from here in New
Zealand - a Botrytised Chardonnay: very sweet and hints of oak - this
worked quite well !

--

st.helier




  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
pavane
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Mike Stanton" > wrote in message
...
> a quart of "andre' cold duck" always worked for me throughout high school.
> it's even more effective (and eventually less messy) on an empty stomach -
> don't feed her!
>


At least not until the second date...

pavane


  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
pavane
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Mike Stanton" > wrote in message
...
> a quart of "andre' cold duck" always worked for me throughout high school.
> it's even more effective (and eventually less messy) on an empty stomach -
> don't feed her!
>


At least not until the second date...

pavane


  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
st.helier
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Kieran Dyke" inquired ..
>
> Is Tokay a place name?


Actually Kieran, yes it is!

Tokaji is in Hungary, and the dispute over the use of Tokay has been going
on for centuries.

The prime example of this is the misnomer *Tokay d"Alsace* - which is now
being phased out.

I have visited Rutherglen and spoken to several winemakers, some stubbornly
insisting that the Australian use of Tokay is historical and should be
continued, whilst others realise that another name should be used.

The question is what!

You are correct - Fortified Muscadelle doesn't have the same ring to it.

And considering that the winemakers of Rutherglen have also stopped using
the descriptor "Fortified" they do have a dilemma.

I await with interest as to what they come up with, and until they do, they
cannot send their "Tokay" to the EU.

And that is a shame.

--

st.helier


  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dana Myers
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mike Stanton wrote:
> a quart of "andre' cold duck" always worked for me throughout high school.
> it's even more effective (and eventually less messy) on an empty stomach -
> don't feed her!


<sarcasm on>
Geez. Why take chances, why not just slip some GHB, rohypnol
or ketamine into her drink, if the goal is just to get a date
into the sack?
<sarcasm off>

OK, I'm not actually suggesting doing so, in fact, I'm
suggesting that selecting a wine with the intention of getting
a date drunk enough to do something they wouldn't otherwise
do sober is unethical. I don't mean to be overly harsh, I'm
just calling it the way I see it.

"R in san diego" asked about a nice dessert wine.

Maybe a relatively inexpensive bottle of Beringer
Nightingale would be satisfying?

Dana
  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dana Myers
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mike Stanton wrote:
> a quart of "andre' cold duck" always worked for me throughout high school.
> it's even more effective (and eventually less messy) on an empty stomach -
> don't feed her!


<sarcasm on>
Geez. Why take chances, why not just slip some GHB, rohypnol
or ketamine into her drink, if the goal is just to get a date
into the sack?
<sarcasm off>

OK, I'm not actually suggesting doing so, in fact, I'm
suggesting that selecting a wine with the intention of getting
a date drunk enough to do something they wouldn't otherwise
do sober is unethical. I don't mean to be overly harsh, I'm
just calling it the way I see it.

"R in san diego" asked about a nice dessert wine.

Maybe a relatively inexpensive bottle of Beringer
Nightingale would be satisfying?

Dana


  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
st.helier
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Ian Hoare" wrote in message.....

> Muscadelle, if you please. The use of the name Tokay
> should be reserved for the original - from Hungary.


Hi Ian,

As a matter of interest, just in the last couple of days I read/saw/heard
somewhere that some vineyards in Slovakia have successfully argued their
right to use "Tokaji".

Something to do with how borders changed during the turmoils of the 20th
century.

So, you can look forward to seeing some wines legitimately called "Slovakian
Tokay"

a.t.b.

--

st.helier


  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
st.helier
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Ian Hoare" wrote in message.....

> Muscadelle, if you please. The use of the name Tokay
> should be reserved for the original - from Hungary.


Hi Ian,

As a matter of interest, just in the last couple of days I read/saw/heard
somewhere that some vineyards in Slovakia have successfully argued their
right to use "Tokaji".

Something to do with how borders changed during the turmoils of the 20th
century.

So, you can look forward to seeing some wines legitimately called "Slovakian
Tokay"

a.t.b.

--

st.helier


  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dana Myers
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Dick R. wrote:

> A filet mignon would certainly demand a good Cabernet or Zinfandel,
> and for <$25 the selections (especially in California) are endless.
> Consult your local dealer for suggestions.


Filet mignon tends to be very delicate, depending on what it is
flavored with (it's almost always flavored with something or served
with a sauce). Something like a New World Pinot Noir might have
the density and body that a CS or Zin would bring but be better
suited to the delicate flavors of filet mignon. BevMo has a
decent Estancia PN on sale for $10 right now ;-)...

I've found that a nice New York steak is generally a better
combination of tenderness and inherent flavor to work well with
a California CS or Zinfandel...

> For dessert: I don't have much experience here, but a good Muscato
> d'Asti from Italy or even a Muscato d'Oro from Mondavi might be good.


Mondavi makes a truly delightful Sauvignon Blanc Botrytis that's mildly
expensive but plush as pillow, it's superb dessert fare. I mentioned
in another note Beringer's Nightingale, which is quite nice and, though
I can't recall the exact price, I remember it being reasonable. Beaulieu
Vineyards makes a fortified Muscat, Muscat de Beaulieu, which is also
relatively inexpensive and consistently nice, though not as nice as the
above suggestions.

Cheers!
Dana
  #24 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
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Default

Salut/Hi Kieran,

le/on Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:59:46 +1000, tu disais/you said:-

>
>"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
.. .


>> Muscadelle, if you please. The use of the name Tokay should be reserved for
>> the original - from Hungary. Then it could be exported without problems.


>Is Tokay a place name?


Yes indeed. Actually the place name is Tokaj. The very famous wine made from
it, Tokaji Aszu or Tokaji Eszencia had its name westernised to "Tokay" and
that was the name winemakers used to try to pass off their wines as the
exclusive and expensive real thing. Alsace used to call their weines made
from Pinot Gris "Tokay d'Alsace", and have accepted that after a 10 year
transition via "Tokay - Pinot Gris", the use of "Tokay" will no longer be
permitted.

In Australia, the situation is a little different. Without going through the
whole sad history of the relations between the UK and australian wine
making, the Brits used Australia as a place where cheap copies of classic
wines would be made and sent to Britain. So we used to have Australian
Burgundy, Port, Sherry and Tokay. With the UK's entry into Europe, this
lamentable practice had to stop and at last quality Australian wines
(hitherto unkown in Europe) could begin to stand on their own feet. However
_in Australia_ you still sell wines as "Port, Sherry etc" Tokay is a case
slightly apart, as Hungary was part of the Communist Bloc and therefore was
ill-placed to defend itself as effectively as did Portugal (Port) and Spain
(Sherry). The fact that you don't know _anything_ about Tokaji proves just
how much of an abuse the "borrowing" of the name has proven.

In fact, as I discovered when we visited Rutherglen about 3 years ago, Tokay
is used to describe a sweet wine made from a grape known as Muscadelle
elsewhere. It's excellent, in a slightly syrupey way, but bears absolutely
no comparison with Tokaji Aszu.

> If it isn't, why couldn't it be made anywhere?


For the same reason as Coonawarra Terre Rouge can't be made from grapes
grown in Western Australia.

>Fortified Muscadelle doesn't have the same ring to it.


Actually, I feel that if the growers of quality "liqueur Tokay" were to put
their considerable energy and skill to marketing a wine with the name of
"Sweet Muscadelle" (I wouldn't have worried about "liqueur" personally, as
it doesn't ape any other wine region), they could easily give it the
required cachet.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Salut/Hi Kieran,

le/on Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:59:46 +1000, tu disais/you said:-

>
>"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
.. .


>> Muscadelle, if you please. The use of the name Tokay should be reserved for
>> the original - from Hungary. Then it could be exported without problems.


>Is Tokay a place name?


Yes indeed. Actually the place name is Tokaj. The very famous wine made from
it, Tokaji Aszu or Tokaji Eszencia had its name westernised to "Tokay" and
that was the name winemakers used to try to pass off their wines as the
exclusive and expensive real thing. Alsace used to call their weines made
from Pinot Gris "Tokay d'Alsace", and have accepted that after a 10 year
transition via "Tokay - Pinot Gris", the use of "Tokay" will no longer be
permitted.

In Australia, the situation is a little different. Without going through the
whole sad history of the relations between the UK and australian wine
making, the Brits used Australia as a place where cheap copies of classic
wines would be made and sent to Britain. So we used to have Australian
Burgundy, Port, Sherry and Tokay. With the UK's entry into Europe, this
lamentable practice had to stop and at last quality Australian wines
(hitherto unkown in Europe) could begin to stand on their own feet. However
_in Australia_ you still sell wines as "Port, Sherry etc" Tokay is a case
slightly apart, as Hungary was part of the Communist Bloc and therefore was
ill-placed to defend itself as effectively as did Portugal (Port) and Spain
(Sherry). The fact that you don't know _anything_ about Tokaji proves just
how much of an abuse the "borrowing" of the name has proven.

In fact, as I discovered when we visited Rutherglen about 3 years ago, Tokay
is used to describe a sweet wine made from a grape known as Muscadelle
elsewhere. It's excellent, in a slightly syrupey way, but bears absolutely
no comparison with Tokaji Aszu.

> If it isn't, why couldn't it be made anywhere?


For the same reason as Coonawarra Terre Rouge can't be made from grapes
grown in Western Australia.

>Fortified Muscadelle doesn't have the same ring to it.


Actually, I feel that if the growers of quality "liqueur Tokay" were to put
their considerable energy and skill to marketing a wine with the name of
"Sweet Muscadelle" (I wouldn't have worried about "liqueur" personally, as
it doesn't ape any other wine region), they could easily give it the
required cachet.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website


  #26 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Salut/Hi st.helier,

le/on Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:45:55 +1200, tu disais/you said:-


>Tokaji is in Hungary, and the dispute over the use of Tokay has been going
>on for centuries.


Tokaj. Tokaji is "from tokaj" as Wehlen_er_ is "from Wehlen" in German.

>The prime example of this is the misnomer *Tokay d"Alsace* - which is now
>being phased out.


With much bleating, I might add.

>I have visited Rutherglen and spoken to several winemakers, some stubbornly
>insisting that the Australian use of Tokay is historical and should be
>continued, whilst others realise that another name should be used.


It IS historical, it IS traditional and it IS passing off. Ask 1000
autralians what Tokay is, and almost without exception, they will describe
an Australian wine. I don't blame the winemakers for resisting, even if I
believe very strongly that they are in the wrong.

>You are correct - Fortified Muscadelle doesn't have the same ring to it.


I'd be quite happy with Liqueur Muscadelle. I know it's a bit close to
"Liqueur Muscat", but the difference _could_ be maintained, I feel.

>I await with interest as to what they come up with, and until they do, they
>cannot send their "Tokay" to the EU.


True.

>And that is a shame.


Very true. It's delish!

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
  #27 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Salut/Hi st.helier,

le/on Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:04:41 +1200, tu disais/you said:-

>"Ian Hoare" wrote in message.....
>
>> Muscadelle, if you please. The use of the name Tokay
>> should be reserved for the original - from Hungary.

>
>Hi Ian,


>As a matter of interest, just in the last couple of days I read/saw/heard
>somewhere that some vineyards in Slovakia have successfully argued their
>right to use "Tokaji".


yes. This has been a matter of "discussion" for several years, since 1989,
in fact. Before the breakup and sale of the state winery, they alone decided
what was and wasn't acceptable. Tough shit if you were outside their
designated area.

>Something to do with how borders changed during the turmoils of the 20th
>century.


The Trianon treaty in 1920. Transylvania (formerly part of Hungary) was
given to Roumania, the whole of the present Czech and Slovakian republic
south of the Tatras (formerly part of Hungary) became part of a new country
"Czechoslovakia". The semi autonomous provinces of Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia,
Albania, etcia (formerly part of Hungary) were made into Albania and
Yugoslavia, and Hungary was left with 1/3 of the land area that it possessed
(as part of the Austro-hungarian Empire) before the '14-'18 war. So it is
indeed true that parts of Slovakia make wine in the same way as Tokaji Aszu,
and have some legitimacy in their historical claims. I'd be a lot happier if
they made the wine half as carefully as the Hungarians do.

>So, you can look forward to seeing some wines legitimately called "Slovakian
>Tokay"


I wonder how long it will be before some enterprising investor tries to
replicate what some have done in Hungary. Until then, I guess the wine will
largely be consumed locally.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
  #28 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
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Salut/Hi st.helier,

le/on Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:04:41 +1200, tu disais/you said:-

>"Ian Hoare" wrote in message.....
>
>> Muscadelle, if you please. The use of the name Tokay
>> should be reserved for the original - from Hungary.

>
>Hi Ian,


>As a matter of interest, just in the last couple of days I read/saw/heard
>somewhere that some vineyards in Slovakia have successfully argued their
>right to use "Tokaji".


yes. This has been a matter of "discussion" for several years, since 1989,
in fact. Before the breakup and sale of the state winery, they alone decided
what was and wasn't acceptable. Tough shit if you were outside their
designated area.

>Something to do with how borders changed during the turmoils of the 20th
>century.


The Trianon treaty in 1920. Transylvania (formerly part of Hungary) was
given to Roumania, the whole of the present Czech and Slovakian republic
south of the Tatras (formerly part of Hungary) became part of a new country
"Czechoslovakia". The semi autonomous provinces of Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia,
Albania, etcia (formerly part of Hungary) were made into Albania and
Yugoslavia, and Hungary was left with 1/3 of the land area that it possessed
(as part of the Austro-hungarian Empire) before the '14-'18 war. So it is
indeed true that parts of Slovakia make wine in the same way as Tokaji Aszu,
and have some legitimacy in their historical claims. I'd be a lot happier if
they made the wine half as carefully as the Hungarians do.

>So, you can look forward to seeing some wines legitimately called "Slovakian
>Tokay"


I wonder how long it will be before some enterprising investor tries to
replicate what some have done in Hungary. Until then, I guess the wine will
largely be consumed locally.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
  #29 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
Posts: n/a
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Salut/Hi Michael Pronay,

le/on 19 Sep 2004 18:24:20 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>Ian Hoare > wrote:
>
>> "Have some madeira m'dear!"


>Ian, I have been on the island from Aug 30 to Sept 6 - my first
>trip. Really amazing, and nothing I have ever seen like (but then
>I am not a frequent traveller).


I gather you enjoyed your trip!! I've never been there, but I'm a great fan
of Madeira, as you know.

>The wines are from quite good to sublime, and we tasted back to
>1875(!). Madeira is a wine that puts every common rule upside
>down.


Absolutely.

> Third, I once asked a producer if he ever has has a bottle "over the hill". He did not even know the expression.


True. It's the wine to which the label "immortal" can most accurately be
attached. Tokaji as the other, IMO.

>In the IVM, the "Instituto do Vinho da Madeira"


3½ years ago, I went to their stand at Vinexpo, and had a phenomenal
tasting. As I said, I rate it very highly.

>that the do not tend to investigate into the legend (or truth?)
>that sercial was riesling.


One day, UC Davies will get some samples and tell us, no doubt. I can't say
that the Sercial that I drink regularly is anything LIKE any Riesling I've
ever tasted, but then most Riesling winemakers don't seek to oxidise their
wine until it's dark brown!

>Yes, Madeira is quite a mystery.


Indeed. "Vive les mystères".

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
  #30 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ian Hoare
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Salut/Hi Michael Pronay,

le/on 19 Sep 2004 18:24:20 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>Ian Hoare > wrote:
>
>> "Have some madeira m'dear!"


>Ian, I have been on the island from Aug 30 to Sept 6 - my first
>trip. Really amazing, and nothing I have ever seen like (but then
>I am not a frequent traveller).


I gather you enjoyed your trip!! I've never been there, but I'm a great fan
of Madeira, as you know.

>The wines are from quite good to sublime, and we tasted back to
>1875(!). Madeira is a wine that puts every common rule upside
>down.


Absolutely.

> Third, I once asked a producer if he ever has has a bottle "over the hill". He did not even know the expression.


True. It's the wine to which the label "immortal" can most accurately be
attached. Tokaji as the other, IMO.

>In the IVM, the "Instituto do Vinho da Madeira"


3½ years ago, I went to their stand at Vinexpo, and had a phenomenal
tasting. As I said, I rate it very highly.

>that the do not tend to investigate into the legend (or truth?)
>that sercial was riesling.


One day, UC Davies will get some samples and tell us, no doubt. I can't say
that the Sercial that I drink regularly is anything LIKE any Riesling I've
ever tasted, but then most Riesling winemakers don't seek to oxidise their
wine until it's dark brown!

>Yes, Madeira is quite a mystery.


Indeed. "Vive les mystères".

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website


  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
st.helier
 
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Kia Ora "Ian Hoare", who correctly corrected His Lordship - thus......

> Tokaj. Tokaji is "from tokaj" as Wehlen_er_ is "from Wehlen" in German.


Yes, I saw my gaff immediately I had posted - and in a flash, knew who it
would be to point out the error of my ways :-)))

--

st.h


  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
st.helier
 
Posts: n/a
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Kia Ora "Ian Hoare", who correctly corrected His Lordship - thus......

> Tokaj. Tokaji is "from tokaj" as Wehlen_er_ is "from Wehlen" in German.


Yes, I saw my gaff immediately I had posted - and in a flash, knew who it
would be to point out the error of my ways :-)))

--

st.h


  #33 (permalink)   Report Post  
Cwdjrx _
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ian Hoare stated: "As a second authority Michael Flanders said
"Have some madeira m'dear!"."

This reminded me that I thought I had a recording using that play of
words. It might have been Elsa Lanchester in her Bawdy Cockney Songs
series. However I did not find anything about Maderia listed in any of
the 22 song titles, and I do not have time to listen to all of these
songs just now. Some of the jewels in this series are "Linda and Her
Londonderry Air", "The Ruined Maid", "Rat Catcher's Daughter", "When a
Lady Has a Piazza", and "Mrs. Badger-Butts." These songs are tame by
today's standards, but Lanchester was a master of double innuendo. She
could make even the most ordinary word seem somewhat naughty.

My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase
from my email address. Then add . I do not
check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response.

  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
Cwdjrx _
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ian Hoare stated: "As a second authority Michael Flanders said
"Have some madeira m'dear!"."

This reminded me that I thought I had a recording using that play of
words. It might have been Elsa Lanchester in her Bawdy Cockney Songs
series. However I did not find anything about Maderia listed in any of
the 22 song titles, and I do not have time to listen to all of these
songs just now. Some of the jewels in this series are "Linda and Her
Londonderry Air", "The Ruined Maid", "Rat Catcher's Daughter", "When a
Lady Has a Piazza", and "Mrs. Badger-Butts." These songs are tame by
today's standards, but Lanchester was a master of double innuendo. She
could make even the most ordinary word seem somewhat naughty.

My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase
from my email address. Then add . I do not
check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response.

  #35 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Stanton
 
Posts: n/a
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while the responses to date have been impressive in addressing the nuances,
i fear that we've strayed from the original inquiry ...

he isn't asking for a lesson geography - he isn't asking for a symposium on
the merits or subtleties of a given product ....

the poor guy just wants to get laid and he's relying on alcohol to
supplement any shortfall in animal magnetism.

i still vote for cold duck! he can get a case of the stuff within his $25
budget.




"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
news
> Salut/Hi Kieran,
>
> le/on Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:59:46 +1000, tu disais/you said:-
>
>>
>>"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
. ..

>
>>> Muscadelle, if you please. The use of the name Tokay should be reserved
>>> for
>>> the original - from Hungary. Then it could be exported without problems.

>
>>Is Tokay a place name?

>
> Yes indeed. Actually the place name is Tokaj. The very famous wine made
> from
> it, Tokaji Aszu or Tokaji Eszencia had its name westernised to "Tokay" and
> that was the name winemakers used to try to pass off their wines as the
> exclusive and expensive real thing. Alsace used to call their weines made
> from Pinot Gris "Tokay d'Alsace", and have accepted that after a 10 year
> transition via "Tokay - Pinot Gris", the use of "Tokay" will no longer be
> permitted.
>
> In Australia, the situation is a little different. Without going through
> the
> whole sad history of the relations between the UK and australian wine
> making, the Brits used Australia as a place where cheap copies of classic
> wines would be made and sent to Britain. So we used to have Australian
> Burgundy, Port, Sherry and Tokay. With the UK's entry into Europe, this
> lamentable practice had to stop and at last quality Australian wines
> (hitherto unkown in Europe) could begin to stand on their own feet.
> However
> _in Australia_ you still sell wines as "Port, Sherry etc" Tokay is a case
> slightly apart, as Hungary was part of the Communist Bloc and therefore
> was
> ill-placed to defend itself as effectively as did Portugal (Port) and
> Spain
> (Sherry). The fact that you don't know _anything_ about Tokaji proves just
> how much of an abuse the "borrowing" of the name has proven.
>
> In fact, as I discovered when we visited Rutherglen about 3 years ago,
> Tokay
> is used to describe a sweet wine made from a grape known as Muscadelle
> elsewhere. It's excellent, in a slightly syrupey way, but bears
> absolutely
> no comparison with Tokaji Aszu.
>
>> If it isn't, why couldn't it be made anywhere?

>
> For the same reason as Coonawarra Terre Rouge can't be made from grapes
> grown in Western Australia.
>
>>Fortified Muscadelle doesn't have the same ring to it.

>
> Actually, I feel that if the growers of quality "liqueur Tokay" were to
> put
> their considerable energy and skill to marketing a wine with the name of
> "Sweet Muscadelle" (I wouldn't have worried about "liqueur" personally, as
> it doesn't ape any other wine region), they could easily give it the
> required cachet.
>
> --
> All the Best
> Ian Hoare
> http://www.souvigne.com
> mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website





  #36 (permalink)   Report Post  
enoavidh
 
Posts: n/a
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"Mike Stanton" > wrote in
:

> while the responses to date have been impressive in addressing the
> nuances, i fear that we've strayed from the original inquiry ...
>
> he isn't asking for a lesson geography - he isn't asking for a
> symposium on the merits or subtleties of a given product ....
>
> the poor guy just wants to get laid and he's relying on alcohol to
> supplement any shortfall in animal magnetism.


Oh, did I wander into the "boys-only" alt.food.wine? Can someone direct
me back to the ladies lounge?

>
> i still vote for cold duck! he can get a case of the stuff within his
> $25 budget.


Yes, I remember you mentioned earlier that it assisted you with your
"shortfall" ;P

d:PPP
PS - Bordeaux...
  #37 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Stanton
 
Posts: n/a
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there are always a few folks who can't take a joke - or grasp one.

"shortfall" when you're 16 and dealing with virgins of proximate age is one
thing. by the time you're old enough to legally buy alcohol, you shouldn't
need it.

we never considered that the original post was legit - we assumed that it
was intended to be humorous - who would actually advertise such real
desperation publicly? we were simply trying to join in the fun.

our apologies to anyone who needs to validate relationships or self-esteem
by means of something so mundane and insignificant as rotten fruit juice.

to everyone else, hope we gave you a chuckle.

"it ain't plasma!!!!"





"enoavidh" > wrote in message
5.40...
> "Mike Stanton" > wrote in
> :
>
>> while the responses to date have been impressive in addressing the
>> nuances, i fear that we've strayed from the original inquiry ...
>>
>> he isn't asking for a lesson geography - he isn't asking for a
>> symposium on the merits or subtleties of a given product ....
>>
>> the poor guy just wants to get laid and he's relying on alcohol to
>> supplement any shortfall in animal magnetism.

>
> Oh, did I wander into the "boys-only" alt.food.wine? Can someone direct
> me back to the ladies lounge?
>
>>
>> i still vote for cold duck! he can get a case of the stuff within his
>> $25 budget.

>
> Yes, I remember you mentioned earlier that it assisted you with your
> "shortfall" ;P
>
> d:PPP
> PS - Bordeaux...



  #38 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Tommasi
 
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On 19 Sep 2004 18:24:20 GMT, Michael Pronay > wrote:

>First, never store it on the side, always upright.


Michael, Ian, why is this? Any other wine obey this rule (Porto?)?
What about other sweet wines?

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail
  #39 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Tommasi
 
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On 19 Sep 2004 18:24:20 GMT, Michael Pronay > wrote:

>First, never store it on the side, always upright.


Michael, Ian, why is this? Any other wine obey this rule (Porto?)?
What about other sweet wines?

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail
  #40 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Tommasi
 
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On 19 Sep 2004 18:24:20 GMT, Michael Pronay > wrote:

>First, never store it on the side, always upright.


Michael, Ian, why is this? Any other wine obey this rule (Porto?)?
What about other sweet wines?

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail


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