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Question and comments on wine bottle size and shape (long)
A discussion arose in a thread about the usurping of proper regional names (
French in most instances stated) by US jug-wine producers, that mentioned bottle size, i.e. quantity. I'd like to open a discussion on bottle size AND shape. I realize that many regions of the world have strong traditions as to the shape, volume and color of their bottles. These specifications are rooted in many decades, maybe centuries, and possibly millennia of the production of wine, and the packaging of it into these containers. I'm too much of a "traditionalist" to want to change any of that - heck, I hate the thought of giving up cork in favor of selvin, or crown closures, even though I have an acute awareness of TCA, and the like, but that has been discussed and I've become convinced that I can drape a white cloth over my arm, make a big production and just twist off the cap! I'll get over it... well maybe someday. What I have complaints about are the proliferation of all sorts of bottle- shapes by predominantly US producers. To me, the perfect shape for a wine bottle is the Bordeaux 0.75. With its straight sides, and constant (or nearly so) diameter, it fits nicely into a case, whether wooden, paste-board, or Styrofoam. Better yet, it stores in the cellar, regardless of whether one places it in a single-bottle niche, a diamond-bin, or even in a square or rectangular bin. It doesn't rock, and doesn't have to balance on a tiny point of contact. OK, I know that Burgundy, and the Rhône, have put their wine into the soft-shouldered bottle, whether red, or white. That is fine. That is tradition. So long as the outside diameter doesn't exceed that of the Bordeaux bottle, except by a small margin. A note: most of my Burgundies and all of my Rhône wines fit into my single-bottle niches. Bubblies are an eexception, that I just have to take into account, and had several storage areas built just for them, just like my magnums. Lately, however, several wineries (predominantly in the US, CA) have begun pushing the envelope, or bottle, as it were. Some producers, like William Foley, have taken to using Burgundy bottles that are much wider at their largest diameter, than normal Burgundy bottles. These "cute" shapes might stand out in the wine shop, provided that they display them upright. Ravenswood's Icon is another wine, in a similar, though differently dimensioned bottle. There are many more miscreants along these lines, but I don't recall the other suspects off the top of my head. These bottles will NOT fit into a single-bottle rack - they're too damned big. They will not stack in a diamond, or rectangular bin, except on the top row, and then they teeter precariously. So far, I've not had any mishaps, but the time IS coming. I have bins, that only have one row of these monstrosities, balanced on a pin, and I can't use the rest of the space. They would fit into a magnum slot, but then the depth of the slot is a problem. The only solution that I see is to just drink these up in a hurry, and to not buy any more! I can gain storage for about ten cases of "regular" bottles, just by eliminating these few oddballs. I just wish that the winemakers would think about their art, and not the "art" of their marketing directors. Am I the only person, who has a problem with these mutants? Does anyone have a solution, other than giving up space designed specifically for my bubblies, and magnums? Maybe if I collected and drank a lot of wine from the Franken region of Germany, from a bocksbeutle, I'd feel differently. Hunt |
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Hunt wrote:
> What I have complaints about are the proliferation of all sorts of bottle- > shapes by predominantly US producers. To me, the perfect shape for a wine > bottle is the Bordeaux 0.75. With its straight sides, and constant (or nearly > so) diameter, it fits nicely into a case, whether wooden, paste-board, or > Styrofoam. Better yet, it stores in the cellar, regardless of whether one > places it in a single-bottle niche, a diamond-bin, or even in a square or > rectangular bin. It doesn't rock, and doesn't have to balance on a tiny point > of contact. OK, I know that Burgundy, and the Rhône, have put their wine into > the soft-shouldered bottle, whether red, or white. That is fine. That is > tradition. So long as the outside diameter doesn't exceed that of the Bordeaux > bottle, except by a small margin. A note: most of my Burgundies and all of my > Rhône wines fit into my single-bottle niches. Bubblies are an eexception, that > I just have to take into account, and had several storage areas built just for > them, just like my magnums. > > Lately, however, several wineries (predominantly in the US, CA) have begun > pushing the envelope, or bottle, as it were. Some producers, like William > Foley, have taken to using Burgundy bottles that are much wider at their > largest diameter, than normal Burgundy bottles. These "cute" shapes might > stand out in the wine shop, provided that they display them upright. > Ravenswood's Icon is another wine, in a similar, though differently > dimensioned bottle. There are many more miscreants along these lines, but I > don't recall the other suspects off the top of my head. These bottles will NOT > fit into a single-bottle rack - they're too damned big. They will not stack in > a diamond, or rectangular bin, except on the top row, and then they teeter > precariously. So far, I've not had any mishaps, but the time IS coming. I have > bins, that only have one row of these monstrosities, balanced on a pin, and I > can't use the rest of the space. They would fit into a magnum slot, but then > the depth of the slot is a problem. Hah! You have just hit upon my current pet peeve. It's not just limited to CA, though it's certainly more prevalent there. However, all recent vintages of Ch. de Beaucastel and Ch. de la Gardine no longer fit in my S. Rhone rack. And so many high end CA cabs (and, increasingly, Zins) are put into bottles that are easily 50% more massive than the traditional B'dx bottle. As their shoulders are wider than their base, they don't stack well either. My biggest concern, however, is that the increased weight of these bottles will lead to long-term instability of my racking. Those racks weren't designed for so much extra glass. Grrrr... Mark Lipton |
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Hunt wrote:
> What I have complaints about are the proliferation of all sorts of bottle- > shapes by predominantly US producers. To me, the perfect shape for a wine > bottle is the Bordeaux 0.75. With its straight sides, and constant (or nearly > so) diameter, it fits nicely into a case, whether wooden, paste-board, or > Styrofoam. Better yet, it stores in the cellar, regardless of whether one > places it in a single-bottle niche, a diamond-bin, or even in a square or > rectangular bin. It doesn't rock, and doesn't have to balance on a tiny point > of contact. OK, I know that Burgundy, and the Rhône, have put their wine into > the soft-shouldered bottle, whether red, or white. That is fine. That is > tradition. So long as the outside diameter doesn't exceed that of the Bordeaux > bottle, except by a small margin. A note: most of my Burgundies and all of my > Rhône wines fit into my single-bottle niches. Bubblies are an eexception, that > I just have to take into account, and had several storage areas built just for > them, just like my magnums. > > Lately, however, several wineries (predominantly in the US, CA) have begun > pushing the envelope, or bottle, as it were. Some producers, like William > Foley, have taken to using Burgundy bottles that are much wider at their > largest diameter, than normal Burgundy bottles. These "cute" shapes might > stand out in the wine shop, provided that they display them upright. > Ravenswood's Icon is another wine, in a similar, though differently > dimensioned bottle. There are many more miscreants along these lines, but I > don't recall the other suspects off the top of my head. These bottles will NOT > fit into a single-bottle rack - they're too damned big. They will not stack in > a diamond, or rectangular bin, except on the top row, and then they teeter > precariously. So far, I've not had any mishaps, but the time IS coming. I have > bins, that only have one row of these monstrosities, balanced on a pin, and I > can't use the rest of the space. They would fit into a magnum slot, but then > the depth of the slot is a problem. Hah! You have just hit upon my current pet peeve. It's not just limited to CA, though it's certainly more prevalent there. However, all recent vintages of Ch. de Beaucastel and Ch. de la Gardine no longer fit in my S. Rhone rack. And so many high end CA cabs (and, increasingly, Zins) are put into bottles that are easily 50% more massive than the traditional B'dx bottle. As their shoulders are wider than their base, they don't stack well either. My biggest concern, however, is that the increased weight of these bottles will lead to long-term instability of my racking. Those racks weren't designed for so much extra glass. Grrrr... Mark Lipton |
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Mark Lipton wrote:
> Hah! You have just hit upon my current pet peeve. It's not just > limited to CA, though it's certainly more prevalent there. However, all > recent vintages of Ch. de Beaucastel and Ch. de la Gardine no longer fit > in my S. Rhone rack. And so many high end CA cabs (and, increasingly, > Zins) are put into bottles that are easily 50% more massive than the > traditional B'dx bottle. As their shoulders are wider than their base, > they don't stack well either. My biggest concern, however, is that the > increased weight of these bottles will lead to long-term instability of > my racking. Those racks weren't designed for so much extra glass. Grrrr... I don't think this is a US problem. More and more low end wine companies are using bottle design as a marketing tool. There are non-symmetric bottles from France, very tall Chianti bottles from Italy, strange things from Argentina. Lets not forget a bottle with a basket on the bottom and even a bottle in the shape of a fish. If you can't sell the wine based on taste, sell it with a different bottle design. |
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"Mark Lipton" in ...
> . . . > Hah! You have just hit upon my current pet peeve. It's not just > limited to CA, though it's certainly more prevalent there. > . . . so many high end CA cabs (and, increasingly, > Zins) are put into bottles that are easily 50% more massive > than the traditional B'dx bottle. As their shoulders are > widerthan their base, they don't stack well either. . . .Grrrr... Is the problem, fundamentally, that manufacturers now use these gimmick bottles, or that the consumers who buy them respond to gimmick marketing rather than to the content? Max |
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"Mark Lipton" in ...
> . . . > Hah! You have just hit upon my current pet peeve. It's not just > limited to CA, though it's certainly more prevalent there. > . . . so many high end CA cabs (and, increasingly, > Zins) are put into bottles that are easily 50% more massive > than the traditional B'dx bottle. As their shoulders are > widerthan their base, they don't stack well either. . . .Grrrr... Is the problem, fundamentally, that manufacturers now use these gimmick bottles, or that the consumers who buy them respond to gimmick marketing rather than to the content? Max |
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"Max Hauser" > wrote in message m... > "Mark Lipton" in ... > > . . . > > Hah! You have just hit upon my current pet peeve. It's not just > > limited to CA, though it's certainly more prevalent there. > > . . . so many high end CA cabs (and, increasingly, > > Zins) are put into bottles that are easily 50% more massive > > than the traditional B'dx bottle. As their shoulders are > > widerthan their base, they don't stack well either. . . .Grrrr... > > Is the problem, fundamentally, that manufacturers now use these gimmick > bottles, or that the consumers who buy them respond to gimmick marketing > rather than to the content? > > > Max I suspect a little of both... Mathew |
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"Max Hauser" > wrote in message m... > "Mark Lipton" in ... > > . . . > > Hah! You have just hit upon my current pet peeve. It's not just > > limited to CA, though it's certainly more prevalent there. > > . . . so many high end CA cabs (and, increasingly, > > Zins) are put into bottles that are easily 50% more massive > > than the traditional B'dx bottle. As their shoulders are > > widerthan their base, they don't stack well either. . . .Grrrr... > > Is the problem, fundamentally, that manufacturers now use these gimmick > bottles, or that the consumers who buy them respond to gimmick marketing > rather than to the content? > > > Max I suspect a little of both... Mathew |
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You can add me to list of the folks irritated by this. I currently have 4
separate kinds of racks, only one will handle the biggest (La Gardine and the like). It's a strange no-name 60 bottle wire one which isn't very efficient, taking up almost as much space as a 152 bottle grid model. And they're impossible in diamond bins. GGRRRRRR. Dale Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply |
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You can add me to list of the folks irritated by this. I currently have 4
separate kinds of racks, only one will handle the biggest (La Gardine and the like). It's a strange no-name 60 bottle wire one which isn't very efficient, taking up almost as much space as a 152 bottle grid model. And they're impossible in diamond bins. GGRRRRRR. Dale Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply |
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"Dale Williams" > skrev i melding ... > You can add me to list of the folks irritated by this. I currently have 4 > separate kinds of racks, only one will handle the biggest (La Gardine and the > like). It's a strange no-name 60 bottle wire one which isn't very efficient, > taking up almost as much space as a 152 bottle grid model. And they're > impossible in diamond bins. GGRRRRRR. > Dale > Well, with Stelvin closures we'll not need racks any more, do we? Anders |
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"Dale Williams" > skrev i melding ... > You can add me to list of the folks irritated by this. I currently have 4 > separate kinds of racks, only one will handle the biggest (La Gardine and the > like). It's a strange no-name 60 bottle wire one which isn't very efficient, > taking up almost as much space as a 152 bottle grid model. And they're > impossible in diamond bins. GGRRRRRR. > Dale > Well, with Stelvin closures we'll not need racks any more, do we? Anders |
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"Anders Tørneskog" > wrote:
> Well, with Stelvin closures we'll not need racks any more, do > we? Exactly. M. |
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"Anders Tørneskog" > wrote:
> Well, with Stelvin closures we'll not need racks any more, do > we? Exactly. M. |
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While it is no doubt true that now there are many wine bottles too fat
to fit in standard wine racks for single 750ml Bordeaux bottles, there have long been many fine wines in fat bottles. A prime example is Romanee-Conti. All of the DRC wines bottles are too fat to fit in my single bottle racks. They are not alone, as some Burgundy from others has used fat bottles in the past, and some still do. Sometimes these fat bottles and Champagne will fit in magnum racks. The most difficult of all to rack I know of is the Bocksbeutel that has been used to bottle wines in the Franken region of Germany for likely hundreds of years. I have one metal rack of shelves spaced closely together to store such bottles and other such unusual shapes in a single layer. The Bocksbeutel is at least flat enough on two sides that it will not roll around on a flat surface. For bottles that tend to roll, a few cheap wooden clothes pins can have their upper ends cut off to make wedges to keep problem bottles in place. My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase from my email address. Then add . I do not check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response. |
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While it is no doubt true that now there are many wine bottles too fat
to fit in standard wine racks for single 750ml Bordeaux bottles, there have long been many fine wines in fat bottles. A prime example is Romanee-Conti. All of the DRC wines bottles are too fat to fit in my single bottle racks. They are not alone, as some Burgundy from others has used fat bottles in the past, and some still do. Sometimes these fat bottles and Champagne will fit in magnum racks. The most difficult of all to rack I know of is the Bocksbeutel that has been used to bottle wines in the Franken region of Germany for likely hundreds of years. I have one metal rack of shelves spaced closely together to store such bottles and other such unusual shapes in a single layer. The Bocksbeutel is at least flat enough on two sides that it will not roll around on a flat surface. For bottles that tend to roll, a few cheap wooden clothes pins can have their upper ends cut off to make wedges to keep problem bottles in place. My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase from my email address. Then add . I do not check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response. |
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<SNIP>
> > Hunt (Thought I'd snip this since there have been so many previous replies.... the most offensive of all of these (IMHO) is Insignia. Not only is the d**m bottle different sizes and shapes, but it changes every blasted year for the past 3 or 4. I've just about decided to quit buying for this reason alone (okay, that and the ever increasing price!) GRRRRRRRRR! Gary |
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Matija Grozni wrote:
> Hi! > > I'm just wondering... What do you think of the design of the bottle > (look attached photo)? Matija, It's an interesting shape, but very impractical for storage. However, as it appears to be a white wine, the wine itself may not be intended for storage. By the way, you really shouldn't attach *anything* to posts made to newsgroups that don't have "binaries" in their name. Most people reading your message won't see the attachment anyway, as their news server will strip the attachment from the post. Usually, the thing to do (if it can be managed) is to place the picture on a website and provide a link to the website in your post. Mark Lipton |
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Matija Grozni wrote:
> Hi! > > I'm just wondering... What do you think of the design of the bottle > (look attached photo)? Matija, It's an interesting shape, but very impractical for storage. However, as it appears to be a white wine, the wine itself may not be intended for storage. By the way, you really shouldn't attach *anything* to posts made to newsgroups that don't have "binaries" in their name. Most people reading your message won't see the attachment anyway, as their news server will strip the attachment from the post. Usually, the thing to do (if it can be managed) is to place the picture on a website and provide a link to the website in your post. Mark Lipton |
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The more recent Musigny from Comte de Vogue uses bottles that fit in my
wine racks. However in 1949 de Vogue made both a regular and a Vieilles Vignes Musigny. I have a single bottle of each. The regular will fit the wine racks, but the Vieilles Vignes uses a slightly different, wider bottle that will not quite fit the grid opening in my wine racks. I do not know if this was intentional or not. They could have used up a stock of wider bottles and started with less wide ones when they were bottling the 1988s. Many years ago Port "of the vintage" was sold in the US in very wide, short bottles that will fit no racks that I have seen. Such wine would have to be labeled "colheita" today. I was given a bottle of V. Sattui Winery California Madeira several years ago. The winery is in St. Helena. The wine is in a short, very wide bottle about the shape of the "of the vintage of" Port mentioned above, and it has bright red sealing wax rather than a capsule. I have no idea how this wine will taste, as I have never seen this wine before. According to the back label it was made using traditional soleras and was available only at the winery. My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase from my email address. Then add . I do not check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response. |
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