A discussion arose in a thread about the usurping of proper regional names (
French in most instances stated) by US jug-wine producers, that mentioned
bottle size, i.e. quantity. I'd like to open a discussion on bottle size AND
shape.

I realize that many regions of the world have strong traditions as to the
shape, volume and color of their bottles. These specifications are rooted in
many decades, maybe centuries, and possibly millennia of the production of
wine, and the packaging of it into these containers.

I'm too much of a "traditionalist" to want to change any of that - heck, I
hate the thought of giving up cork in favor of selvin, or crown closures, even
though I have an acute awareness of TCA, and the like, but that has been
discussed and I've become convinced that I can drape a white cloth over my
arm, make a big production and just twist off the cap! I'll get over it...
well maybe someday.

What I have complaints about are the proliferation of all sorts of bottle-
shapes by predominantly US producers. To me, the perfect shape for a wine
bottle is the Bordeaux 0.75. With its straight sides, and constant (or nearly
so) diameter, it fits nicely into a case, whether wooden, paste-board, or
Styrofoam. Better yet, it stores in the cellar, regardless of whether one
places it in a single-bottle niche, a diamond-bin, or even in a square or
rectangular bin. It doesn't rock, and doesn't have to balance on a tiny point
of contact. OK, I know that Burgundy, and the Rhône, have put their wine into
the soft-shouldered bottle, whether red, or white. That is fine. That is
tradition. So long as the outside diameter doesn't exceed that of the Bordeaux
bottle, except by a small margin. A note: most of my Burgundies and all of my
Rhône wines fit into my single-bottle niches. Bubblies are an eexception, that
I just have to take into account, and had several storage areas built just for
them, just like my magnums.

Lately, however, several wineries (predominantly in the US, CA) have begun
pushing the envelope, or bottle, as it were. Some producers, like William
Foley, have taken to using Burgundy bottles that are much wider at their
largest diameter, than normal Burgundy bottles. These "cute" shapes might
stand out in the wine shop, provided that they display them upright.
Ravenswood's Icon is another wine, in a similar, though differently
dimensioned bottle. There are many more miscreants along these lines, but I
don't recall the other suspects off the top of my head. These bottles will NOT
fit into a single-bottle rack - they're too damned big. They will not stack in
a diamond, or rectangular bin, except on the top row, and then they teeter
precariously. So far, I've not had any mishaps, but the time IS coming. I have
bins, that only have one row of these monstrosities, balanced on a pin, and I
can't use the rest of the space. They would fit into a magnum slot, but then
the depth of the slot is a problem.

The only solution that I see is to just drink these up in a hurry, and to not
buy any more! I can gain storage for about ten cases of "regular" bottles,
just by eliminating these few oddballs. I just wish that the winemakers would
think about their art, and not the "art" of their marketing directors.

Am I the only person, who has a problem with these mutants? Does anyone have a
solution, other than giving up space designed specifically for my bubblies,
and magnums? Maybe if I collected and drank a lot of wine from the Franken
region of Germany, from a bocksbeutle, I'd feel differently.

Hunt

Hunt wrote:

What I have complaints about are the proliferation of all sorts of bottle-
shapes by predominantly US producers. To me, the perfect shape for a wine
bottle is the Bordeaux 0.75. With its straight sides, and constant (or nearly
so) diameter, it fits nicely into a case, whether wooden, paste-board, or
Styrofoam. Better yet, it stores in the cellar, regardless of whether one
places it in a single-bottle niche, a diamond-bin, or even in a square or
rectangular bin. It doesn't rock, and doesn't have to balance on a tiny point
of contact. OK, I know that Burgundy, and the Rhône, have put their wine into
the soft-shouldered bottle, whether red, or white. That is fine. That is
tradition. So long as the outside diameter doesn't exceed that of the Bordeaux
bottle, except by a small margin. A note: most of my Burgundies and all of my
Rhône wines fit into my single-bottle niches. Bubblies are an eexception, that
I just have to take into account, and had several storage areas built just for
them, just like my magnums.

Lately, however, several wineries (predominantly in the US, CA) have begun
pushing the envelope, or bottle, as it were. Some producers, like William
Foley, have taken to using Burgundy bottles that are much wider at their
largest diameter, than normal Burgundy bottles. These "cute" shapes might
stand out in the wine shop, provided that they display them upright.
Ravenswood's Icon is another wine, in a similar, though differently
dimensioned bottle. There are many more miscreants along these lines, but I
don't recall the other suspects off the top of my head. These bottles will NOT
fit into a single-bottle rack - they're too damned big. They will not stack in
a diamond, or rectangular bin, except on the top row, and then they teeter
precariously. So far, I've not had any mishaps, but the time IS coming. I have
bins, that only have one row of these monstrosities, balanced on a pin, and I
can't use the rest of the space. They would fit into a magnum slot, but then
the depth of the slot is a problem.

Hah! You have just hit upon my current pet peeve. It's not just
limited to CA, though it's certainly more prevalent there. However, all
recent vintages of Ch. de Beaucastel and Ch. de la Gardine no longer fit
in my S. Rhone rack. And so many high end CA cabs (and, increasingly,
Zins) are put into bottles that are easily 50% more massive than the
traditional B'dx bottle. As their shoulders are wider than their base,
they don't stack well either. My biggest concern, however, is that the
increased weight of these bottles will lead to long-term instability of
my racking. Those racks weren't designed for so much extra glass. Grrrr...

Mark Lipton

Hunt wrote:

What I have complaints about are the proliferation of all sorts of bottle-
shapes by predominantly US producers. To me, the perfect shape for a wine
bottle is the Bordeaux 0.75. With its straight sides, and constant (or nearly
so) diameter, it fits nicely into a case, whether wooden, paste-board, or
Styrofoam. Better yet, it stores in the cellar, regardless of whether one
places it in a single-bottle niche, a diamond-bin, or even in a square or
rectangular bin. It doesn't rock, and doesn't have to balance on a tiny point
of contact. OK, I know that Burgundy, and the Rhône, have put their wine into
the soft-shouldered bottle, whether red, or white. That is fine. That is
tradition. So long as the outside diameter doesn't exceed that of the Bordeaux
bottle, except by a small margin. A note: most of my Burgundies and all of my
Rhône wines fit into my single-bottle niches. Bubblies are an eexception, that
I just have to take into account, and had several storage areas built just for
them, just like my magnums.

Lately, however, several wineries (predominantly in the US, CA) have begun
pushing the envelope, or bottle, as it were. Some producers, like William
Foley, have taken to using Burgundy bottles that are much wider at their
largest diameter, than normal Burgundy bottles. These "cute" shapes might
stand out in the wine shop, provided that they display them upright.
Ravenswood's Icon is another wine, in a similar, though differently
dimensioned bottle. There are many more miscreants along these lines, but I
don't recall the other suspects off the top of my head. These bottles will NOT
fit into a single-bottle rack - they're too damned big. They will not stack in
a diamond, or rectangular bin, except on the top row, and then they teeter
precariously. So far, I've not had any mishaps, but the time IS coming. I have
bins, that only have one row of these monstrosities, balanced on a pin, and I
can't use the rest of the space. They would fit into a magnum slot, but then
the depth of the slot is a problem.

Hah! You have just hit upon my current pet peeve. It's not just
limited to CA, though it's certainly more prevalent there. However, all
recent vintages of Ch. de Beaucastel and Ch. de la Gardine no longer fit
in my S. Rhone rack. And so many high end CA cabs (and, increasingly,
Zins) are put into bottles that are easily 50% more massive than the
traditional B'dx bottle. As their shoulders are wider than their base,
they don't stack well either. My biggest concern, however, is that the
increased weight of these bottles will lead to long-term instability of
my racking. Those racks weren't designed for so much extra glass. Grrrr...

Mark Lipton

Mark Lipton wrote:

Hah! You have just hit upon my current pet peeve. It's not just
limited to CA, though it's certainly more prevalent there. However, all
recent vintages of Ch. de Beaucastel and Ch. de la Gardine no longer fit
in my S. Rhone rack. And so many high end CA cabs (and, increasingly,
Zins) are put into bottles that are easily 50% more massive than the
traditional B'dx bottle. As their shoulders are wider than their base,
they don't stack well either. My biggest concern, however, is that the
increased weight of these bottles will lead to long-term instability of
my racking. Those racks weren't designed for so much extra glass. Grrrr...


I don't think this is a US problem. More and more low end wine companies
are using bottle design as a marketing tool. There are non-symmetric bottles
from France, very tall Chianti bottles from Italy, strange things from
Argentina. Lets not forget a bottle with a basket on the bottom and even
a bottle in the shape of a fish. If you can't sell the wine based on taste,
sell it with a different bottle design.

"Mark Lipton" in ...
. . .
Hah! You have just hit upon my current pet peeve. It's not just
limited to CA, though it's certainly more prevalent there.
. . . so many high end CA cabs (and, increasingly,
Zins) are put into bottles that are easily 50% more massive
than the traditional B'dx bottle. As their shoulders are
widerthan their base, they don't stack well either. . . .Grrrr...

Is the problem, fundamentally, that manufacturers now use these gimmick
bottles, or that the consumers who buy them respond to gimmick marketing
rather than to the content?


Max

"Mark Lipton" in ...
. . .
Hah! You have just hit upon my current pet peeve. It's not just
limited to CA, though it's certainly more prevalent there.
. . . so many high end CA cabs (and, increasingly,
Zins) are put into bottles that are easily 50% more massive
than the traditional B'dx bottle. As their shoulders are
widerthan their base, they don't stack well either. . . .Grrrr...

Is the problem, fundamentally, that manufacturers now use these gimmick
bottles, or that the consumers who buy them respond to gimmick marketing
rather than to the content?


Max

"Max Hauser" wrote in message
m...
"Mark Lipton" in ...
. . .
Hah! You have just hit upon my current pet peeve. It's not just
limited to CA, though it's certainly more prevalent there.
. . . so many high end CA cabs (and, increasingly,
Zins) are put into bottles that are easily 50% more massive
than the traditional B'dx bottle. As their shoulders are
widerthan their base, they don't stack well either. . . .Grrrr...

Is the problem, fundamentally, that manufacturers now use these gimmick
bottles, or that the consumers who buy them respond to gimmick marketing
rather than to the content?


Max
I suspect a little of both...

Mathew

"Max Hauser" wrote in message
m...
"Mark Lipton" in ...
. . .
Hah! You have just hit upon my current pet peeve. It's not just
limited to CA, though it's certainly more prevalent there.
. . . so many high end CA cabs (and, increasingly,
Zins) are put into bottles that are easily 50% more massive
than the traditional B'dx bottle. As their shoulders are
widerthan their base, they don't stack well either. . . .Grrrr...

Is the problem, fundamentally, that manufacturers now use these gimmick
bottles, or that the consumers who buy them respond to gimmick marketing
rather than to the content?


Max
I suspect a little of both...

Mathew

You can add me to list of the folks irritated by this. I currently have 4
separate kinds of racks, only one will handle the biggest (La Gardine and the
like). It's a strange no-name 60 bottle wire one which isn't very efficient,
taking up almost as much space as a 152 bottle grid model. And they're
impossible in diamond bins. GGRRRRRR.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

You can add me to list of the folks irritated by this. I currently have 4
separate kinds of racks, only one will handle the biggest (La Gardine and the
like). It's a strange no-name 60 bottle wire one which isn't very efficient,
taking up almost as much space as a 152 bottle grid model. And they're
impossible in diamond bins. GGRRRRRR.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

"Dale Williams" skrev i melding
...
You can add me to list of the folks irritated by this. I currently have 4
separate kinds of racks, only one will handle the biggest (La Gardine and
the
like). It's a strange no-name 60 bottle wire one which isn't very
efficient,
taking up almost as much space as a 152 bottle grid model. And they're
impossible in diamond bins. GGRRRRRR.
Dale

Well, with Stelvin closures we'll not need racks any more, do we?
Anders

"Dale Williams" skrev i melding
...
You can add me to list of the folks irritated by this. I currently have 4
separate kinds of racks, only one will handle the biggest (La Gardine and
the
like). It's a strange no-name 60 bottle wire one which isn't very
efficient,
taking up almost as much space as a 152 bottle grid model. And they're
impossible in diamond bins. GGRRRRRR.
Dale

Well, with Stelvin closures we'll not need racks any more, do we?
Anders

In article ,
says...

"Mark Lipton" in ...
. . .
Hah! You have just hit upon my current pet peeve. It's not just
limited to CA, though it's certainly more prevalent there.
. . . so many high end CA cabs (and, increasingly,
Zins) are put into bottles that are easily 50% more massive
than the traditional B'dx bottle. As their shoulders are
widerthan their base, they don't stack well either. . . .Grrrr...

Is the problem, fundamentally, that manufacturers now use these gimmick
bottles, or that the consumers who buy them respond to gimmick marketing
rather than to the content?


Max

Max,
That's a good question. All of bottles, with which I have a problem are "fine"
wines, or at least preceived as such by me. The bottle is not part of the hook
in my case. As a matter of fact, I'm starting to pass on some well
recommended wines, or even ones that I have tasted, if their bottle is such
that storage is suspect. These are not the gimmick bottles, but rather bottles
with much larger diameters, extreme tapers, or maybe extra length, though that
is less of a problem, provided that other dimensions are not out of line.

If the wine is to be consumed on, or near the day of purchase, I have fewer
problems with them. Anything for long-term storage creates a tough situation.
If it is a marketing gimmick, then it's backfiring, in my case.

Hunt

In article ,
says...

"Mark Lipton" in ...
. . .
Hah! You have just hit upon my current pet peeve. It's not just
limited to CA, though it's certainly more prevalent there.
. . . so many high end CA cabs (and, increasingly,
Zins) are put into bottles that are easily 50% more massive
than the traditional B'dx bottle. As their shoulders are
widerthan their base, they don't stack well either. . . .Grrrr...

Is the problem, fundamentally, that manufacturers now use these gimmick
bottles, or that the consumers who buy them respond to gimmick marketing
rather than to the content?


Max

Max,
That's a good question. All of bottles, with which I have a problem are "fine"
wines, or at least preceived as such by me. The bottle is not part of the hook
in my case. As a matter of fact, I'm starting to pass on some well
recommended wines, or even ones that I have tasted, if their bottle is such
that storage is suspect. These are not the gimmick bottles, but rather bottles
with much larger diameters, extreme tapers, or maybe extra length, though that
is less of a problem, provided that other dimensions are not out of line.

If the wine is to be consumed on, or near the day of purchase, I have fewer
problems with them. Anything for long-term storage creates a tough situation.
If it is a marketing gimmick, then it's backfiring, in my case.

Hunt

In article ,
says...


"Dale Williams" skrev i melding
...
You can add me to list of the folks irritated by this. I currently have 4
separate kinds of racks, only one will handle the biggest (La Gardine and
the
like). It's a strange no-name 60 bottle wire one which isn't very
efficient,
taking up almost as much space as a 152 bottle grid model. And they're
impossible in diamond bins. GGRRRRRR.
Dale

Well, with Stelvin closures we'll not need racks any more, do we?
Anders

I never thought of THAT! Maybe that is where this is all headed.

Hunt