First, a big thanks to those who gave notes to my Austrian wine
classifications. They were really helpful.
So here is my write-up describing the different grapes, some really
specific to Austria, but many known worldwide. There are often raging
debates about the genesis of certain strains, so I am eager to be
corrected in any case. Would also like thoughts about the predominant
characteristics, as well as any kind of interesting history about a
varietal.
Thanks!
E. Winemonger
----------------

THE GRAPES OF AUSTRIA
THE WHITES:

BOUVIER: Used for dessert wines in the Burganland region. A mild and
aromatic variety with a light Muscat bouquet. This was originally a
table wine grape and is most often combined with other grapes in wine.

CHARDONNAY: Probably the most popular white wine grape in the world,
it has been present in Austria for over a century and there is an
ongoing debate about whether it or the Riesling grape make the best
white wines. Chardonnay grapes produce wines that can vary in
characteristics, but some common descriptions include buttery, creamy,
nutty, smoky, steely, vanilla, lemony, appley, melon & pineapple,
depending upon how "oaked" they are. They can be dry or dessert wines.
The Austrians of Styria call their Chardonnay MORILLON and those from
the Wachau call it FEINBURGUNDER.

FEINBURGUNDER: see CHARDONNAY

FURMINT: Used in dessert wines, especially for the creation of Ruster
Ausbruch. The Furmint grape has a soft skin which is easily damaged
and thus allows the grape to dehydrate quickly.

GELBER MUSKATELLER: see MUSKATELLER

GEWURZTRAMINER: see TRAMINER

GRAUBURGUNDER: see PINOT GRIS

GRÜNER SYLVANER: Also known simply as SYLVANER. Once a widely planted
varietal, it comes from a crossing of the Traminer and "Austrian
White" grapes. It is believed to have originated in Austria, but
there are not many vineyards growing it now. It tends to produce
light, soft wines with good acidity.

GRÜNER VELTLINER: The most widely planted vine in Austria, this white
wine grape produces pale, crisp, light-to-medium bodied wines that can
be slightly spicy. There are notes of green veggies, white pepper,
sometimes lentils, rhubarb and strawberry, as well as a big floral
bouquet, but not of the perfumed variety. This dry white wine will
match well with almost any kind of food, including the notoriously
difficult such as artichoke and asparagus. If you've been looking
for a delightful alternative to the oft-oaky Chardonnay, this is it!
We hear that some people call it WEISSGIPFLER.

KLEVNER: see PINOT BLANC

MORILLON: see CHARDONNAY

MÜLLER-THURGAU: It used to be common knowledge that Muller-Thurgau was
a cross between Riesling and Sylvaner. Then word went around that it
was in fact a Riesling and Chasselas hybrid. The latest rumor is that
it was begat of Riesling and Admirable de Courtiller (a grape native
to Eastern Europe) Whatever its lineage, it typically produces
smooth, slightly sweet wines that have a hint of Muscat aroma and
light acidity. Also called RIVANER.

MUSKATELLER: In the family of Muscat grapes, its' fancy French name
is MUSCAT BLANC A PETITS GRAINS. Low yield, very concentrated.
Grapey, and almost always quite perfumey (or, aromatic, depending upon
which word you prefer.) Another grape in this family which is often
used (especially in the dessert wines) is MUSCAT-OTTONEL

MUSKAT-OTTONEL: Light, thin, and very distinctive. See MUSKATELLER
for more.

MUSKAT-SYLVANER: see SAUVIGNON BLANC

NEUBURGER: An historic Austrian grape that has been losing popularity
in the past 15 years. It is capable of making a dry and elegant wine,
as well as great late-harvest sweeties, and is hopefully due for a
comeback. Often soft, full-bodied, with a balanced, nutty aroma.

PINOT BLANC: Some say the Austrians make the best wines around from
this variety, which they call WEISSBURGUNDER (or KLEVNER.) Some also
say that you can detect notes of apple, peach, yeast, a bit of spice,
and general freshness. Still others say it's dry, crisp and intense.

PINOT GRIS : A full bodied white grape that you might have heard
called PINOT GRIGIO, RULANDER or GRAUBURGUNDER. It can be light,
crisp and dry or fat, rich, and honeyed. Peaches. Apricots. Not a
lot of these vines in Austria, and you'll find most of them in the
Burgenland and Styrian regions.

RIESLING: Considered to be one of the best and most versatile
white-wine grapes. It produces wines ranging from steely dry to very
sweet & honeyed. It tends to have a floral bouquet and a freshness
which comes from its acidity. When it's dry, it can have notes of
lime and grapefruit. When it's sweet, think honey and apricot.

RULANDER : see PINOT GRIS

SÄMLING 88: "Sämling" means "offspring": see SCHEUREBE

SAUVIGNON BLANC: This white wine grape, with its noticeable zip of
acidity, will flood you with aromas of fresh green grass, blackcurrant
bud, elder and gooseberries, elderflower, figs, and a general crisp
herbal thing. Used to great effect by the winemakers in the Styrian
region. Sometimes called MUSKAT-SYLVANER, it is in fact an offspring
of the Traminer grape.

SCHEUREBE: Also called SÄMLING 88, it is a cross of Riesling and
Sylvaner grapes developed in 1916. Very susceptible to noble rot,
which makes it a prime candidate for the dessert wines. The flavor is
similar to Riesling, with notes of vineyard peaches and apricot, as
well as lychee, mangos, pears and spice.

SYLVANER: see GRÜNER SYLVANER

TRAMINER: Also called GEWÜRTZTRAMINER or ROTER TRAMINER, although it
is in fact the offspring of the Traminer grape. Known for its crisp
and spicy attributes (gewurtz means "spicy" in German.) It has
characteristics of lychees and roses (the latter being quite
noticeable in dessert wines) as well as nutmeg and cloves. Wines made
from this grape tend to be more golden in color than other whites, and
very soft and smooth. Along with Gewürtztraminer, the Traminer grape
claims parentage to many "famous" offspring, including Grüner
Veltliner, Silvaner, and all the Pinots.

WEISSBURGUNDER: see PINOT BLANC

WEISSGIPFLER: see GRUNER VELTLINER

WELSCHRIESLING: Don't let the name fool you: this white wine grape is
not related to the Riesling variety. In Austria, this grape is used
almost exclusively for production of dessert wines, where it's exotic
fruits and flowery aromas are shown off best. Lightly structured,
racy acidity.



THE REDS:

BLAUBURGUNDER: This grape is more commonly known as PINOT NOIR. A red
grape that can make red or white wines. It is blended with Chardonnay
to make Champagne, and when used by itself is called "blanc de noirs",
or, a white from black. It's characteristics, when young, include
plums, raspberries, strawberries, black currants and cherries, and
when mature give us figs, prunes, truffles, chocolate, violets,
smokiness and truffles. You'll see it listed as BLAUER BURGUNDER and
BLAUER SPATBURGUNDER as well.
1. GSELLMANN & GSELLMANN BLAUBURGUNDER 2001, wm#GG001

BLAUFRÄNKISCH: In the realm of Cabernet Sauvignon, this baby's widely
planted around Austria and is used to produce dry, fruity red wines
with fine spices backed by blackberry and cherry aromas and tones of
liquorice. It buds early, ripens late, don't like the cold, and when
it's unripe, it gets pretty vegetal. All that said, it's a very
tasty, lighter drinking red whose firm tannins make it worthy of
aging. Also called LIMBERGER.


BLAUER PORTUGIESER: They say that this varietal was brought to
Austria by a wine merchant from Porto. At its best it produces mild
and fruity wines which are generally low in both alcohol and acidity
and should be drunk young.

BLAUER WILDBACHER: A varietal found in Western Sytria which is used
to make the rose wine called Schilcher. This specialty wine is as
regional as it gets: the high acid content makes it almost
undrinkable to the uninitiated. However, some vintners are now trying
to make a softer, more rounded version of the wine.

BLAUER ZWEIGELT: see ZWEIGELT.

CABERNET SAUVIGNON: Likely the best known red wine grape worldwide,
it is not planted widely in Austria but it is there. Its fruity
flavors are described as blackcurrent, cherry, raspberry and black
cherry, and it is also tagged with the labels mint, cedar, green
pepper and tobacco.

LIMBERGER: see BLAUFRANKISCH

MERLOT: Red wine grape not widely planted in Austria but finding
popularity over in neighboring Hungary. Usually blended with other
grapes. Has notes of blackberry, black currant, and truffle.

PINOT NOIR: see BLAUBURGUNDER

ROTBURGER: see ZWEIGELT

SAINT LAURENT: A red grape that tastes along the lines of the Pinot
Noir and is very "in" right now. It's a bit crazier than the pinot,
having a rather wild side with fruity, velvetly and flowery aromas,
dry robust flavors and nice tannins. There are reports that it is a
difficult vine to grow and can tell you a lot about the talents of a
vintner, and alternately that it is a hearty vine that resists
diseases.

ZWEIGELT: Extremely drinkable and full-bodied with dominant notes of
cherries and spice. Rich in tannins and mild acidity. It is the
result of a somewhat recent crossing of Blaufrankisch and St. Laurent,
but it also seems to have adopted the best parts of Syrah. It is
planted widely in Austria and ripens early. Also called BLAUER
ZWEIGELT and ROTBURGER.

Thanks. nice writeup. I didn't realize there was Scheurebe in Austria.

You might mention that Furmint is not exclusively used for dessert wines.


Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

amnspam (Dale Williams) wrote in message news:
>
> You might mention that Furmint is not exclusively used for dessert wines.
>

Thought of that about two seconds after I posted the list, vis a vis
our earlier topic. How about this?

FURMINT: When used to make a dry styled wine, tends towards notes of
apple, quince, and somthing floral. Clean, firm, compact, high in
expression and good acid balance. Alternately, it is the traditional
grape used over a hundred years ago for creating Ruster Ausbruch
dessert wines. The Furmint grape has a soft skin which is easily
damaged and thus allows the grape to dehydrate quickly.

E.

winemonger wrote:

> FURMINT: When used to make a dry styled wine, tends towards notes of
> apple, quince, and somthing floral. Clean, firm, compact, high in
> expression and good acid balance. Alternately, it is the traditional
> grape used over a hundred years ago for creating Ruster Ausbruch
> dessert wines. The Furmint grape has a soft skin which is easily
> damaged and thus allows the grape to dehydrate quickly.

Don't you think that more people would associate Furmint with Tokaji than with
Ruster Ausbruch?

Mark Lipton

>Don't you think that more people would associate Furmint with Tokaji than
>with
>Ruster Ausbruch?

Mark, this is to be a guide to Austrian grapes, if I'm not mistaken. Surely
Furmint is most famous for Tokaji, but in this case Ruster Ausbruch.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

amnspam (Dale Williams) wrote in message news:
> Mark, this is to be a guide to Austrian grapes, if I'm not mistaken. Surely
> Furmint is most famous for Tokaji, but in this case Ruster Ausbruch.
> Dale


All true.

But what do you think of the new description? To be honest, unlike the
other grapes, I've only had a dry furmint once and that was a bit of
time ago. And I didn't take notes. So, the description is really
heresay with some science mixed in. Reasonable?

(winemonger) wrote:

> BOUVIER ...

In fact it's a seedling from the vineyards of Clothar Bouvier in
Radkersburg, Styria, one parent being the pinot, the other has has
yet to be determenined:

<http://www.agrarverlag.at/wein/142102.html>

> CHARDONNAY ... there is an ongoing debate about whether it or
> the Riesling grape make the best white wines.

No. Discussions here in Austria rather go to decide whether Grüner
Veltliner or Riesling gets the palm.

> ... The Austrians of Styria call their Chardonnay MORILLON

True.

> and those from the Wachau call it FEINBURGUNDER.

Not anymore, this is illegal since a few years.

> FEINBURGUNDER: see CHARDONNAY

I'd drop that entry.

> GEWURZTRAMINER: see TRAMINER
^
Here we got it right.

> GRÜNER SYLVANER ... it comes from a crossing of the Traminer and
> "Austrian White" grapes. ...

I don't think I have ever seen "Österreichisch Weiß" translated
(although literrally it's correct, of course), just as you woudn't
translate "Grauburgunder" into "Grey Burgundy".

> GRÜNER VELTLINER: ... this white wine grape produces pale,
> crisp, light-to-medium bodied wines ...

The best smaragds are pretty full-bodied, and Willy Bründlmayer's
Käferberg and Lamm single vineyard bottlings have at one time
surpassed 15.0 percent of alcohol. Not something I'd normally call
light-to-medium bodied.

> We hear that some people call it WEISSGIPFLER.

Well, at least one grower uses this synonym on the label, but
nobody I know ever used it in common language.

> MÜLLER-THURGAU: It used to be common knowledge that
> Muller-Thurgau was a cross between Riesling and Sylvaner. Then
> word went around that it was in fact a Riesling and Chasselas
> hybrid. The latest rumor is that it was begat of Riesling and
> Admirable de Courtiller (a grape native to Eastern Europe) ...

Never heard about that. There was an argueing going on between
Klosterneuburg and Geisenheim about the socnd parent being either
Madeleine Angevine or Chasselas de Courtillier, but it was not
considered really important since both grapes belong to the
Chasselas family.

> Also called RIVANER.

Even more frequently it was called Riesling-Silvaner, a name now
banned.

> NEUBURGER ...

A crossing Roter Veltliner x Silvaner.

> SAUVIGNON BLANC ... Sometimes called MUSKAT-SYLVANER,

Not legally anymore.

> SCHEUREBE: Also called SÄMLING 88, it is a cross of Riesling and
> Sylvaner grapes developed in 1916.

No. See the link given above. Riesling as parent is correct, but
the other is still unknown (and certainly not Silvaner).

> TRAMINER: Also called GEWÜRTZTRAMINER or ROTER TRAMINER ...
^
Here we have the wrong T once again.

> (gewurtz means "spicy" in German.)
^
Spelling is "Gewürz", and it's not "spicy" but "spice".

> ... Gewürtztraminer ...
^
Hmmm.

> WELSCHRIESLING: ... this grape is used almost exclusively for
> production of dessert wines ...

Sorry, no. Welschriesling is the light and bone dry wine in just
about *every* vineyard in Styria, where it's the number one grape
variety (22%); in total Austria it's share is 6%, making it the
number three white wine grape after Veltliner and Müller-Thurgau.
And don't forget the Welschriesling from around Poysdorf used to
produce much of Austria's very best sparkling wines.


> BLAUFRÄNKISCH ... Also called LIMBERGER.

But very rarely so in Austria.

> MERLOT: Red wine grape not widely planted in Austria but finding
> popularity over in neighboring Hungary.

Merlot has been widely planted in Austria lately and enjoys a fast
growing popularity as cuvée partner in many of Austria's finest
reds.

> SAINT LAURENT ...

A sämling (offspring) from the pinot group.

> ZWEIGELT ... the result of a somewhat recent crossing of
> Blaufrankisch and St. Laurent,

If you consider 1922 "somewhat recent", then you are right.

> but it also seems to have adopted the best parts of Syrah.

Btw, quite a lot of Syrah has been planted in the last few years
in Burgenland, and it performs extremely well, you should consider
adding it to your list.

M.

Michael Pronay > wrote in message news:

> > CHARDONNAY ... there is an ongoing debate about whether it or
> > the Riesling grape make the best white wines.
>
> No. Discussions here in Austria rather go to decide whether Grüner
> Veltliner or Riesling gets the palm.

I wan't limiting this to be an Austrian debate, but I can see that I
should since it is my main focus right now.
>
> > ... The Austrians of Styria call their Chardonnay MORILLON
>
> True.
>
> > and those from the Wachau call it FEINBURGUNDER.
>
> Not anymore, this is illegal since a few years.

Still want to include it. I can mention that anyone using the term
will be locked up now, however.
>
> > FEINBURGUNDER: see CHARDONNAY
>
> I'd drop that entry.
>
> > GEWURZTRAMINER: see TRAMINER
> ^
> Here we got it right.

I do know how to spell it (luckily) Am glad you caught the typos
elsewhere. At this point i don't even see the mistakes.
>
> > GRÜNER SYLVANER ... it comes from a crossing of the Traminer and
> > "Austrian White" grapes. ...
>
> I don't think I have ever seen "Österreichisch Weiß" translated
> (although literrally it's correct, of course), just as you woudn't
> translate "Grauburgunder" into "Grey Burgundy".
No, but I have seen "Weissburgunder" translated as "White Burgundy"
With the other, i'm just trying to make things accessible.

>
> > GRÜNER VELTLINER: ... this white wine grape produces pale,
> > crisp, light-to-medium bodied wines ...
>
> The best smaragds are pretty full-bodied, and Willy Bründlmayer's
> Käferberg and Lamm single vineyard bottlings have at one time
> surpassed 15.0 percent of alcohol. Not something I'd normally call
> light-to-medium bodied.

True.
>
> > We hear that some people call it WEISSGIPFLER.
>
> Well, at least one grower uses this synonym on the label, but
> nobody I know ever used it in common language.

It's not common language, but so many vintners mentioned it to me, I
would be remiss to leave it out.
>
> > MÜLLER-THURGAU: It used to be common knowledge that
> > Muller-Thurgau was a cross between Riesling and Sylvaner. Then
> > word went around that it was in fact a Riesling and Chasselas
> > hybrid. The latest rumor is that it was begat of Riesling and
> > Admirable de Courtiller (a grape native to Eastern Europe) ...
>
> Never heard about that. There was an argueing going on between
> Klosterneuburg and Geisenheim about the socnd parent being either
> Madeleine Angevine or Chasselas de Courtillier, but it was not
> considered really important since both grapes belong to the
> Chasselas family.

Actually, part of the debate was on this newsgroup from a few years
ago. I remembered it from my past quiet days of peeking in
intermittently.
>
> > Also called RIVANER.
>
> Even more frequently it was called Riesling-Silvaner, a name now
> banned.

Banned everywhere? This is interesting.
>
> > NEUBURGER ...
>
> A crossing Roter Veltliner x Silvaner.

Thanks.
>
> > SAUVIGNON BLANC ... Sometimes called MUSKAT-SYLVANER,
>
> Not legally anymore.

Again, where? And maybe even since when?
>
> > SCHEUREBE: Also called SÄMLING 88, it is a cross of Riesling and
> > Sylvaner grapes developed in 1916.
>
> No. See the link given above. Riesling as parent is correct, but
> the other is still unknown (and certainly not Silvaner).

"Scheurebe: The most widely grown in Germany's Rheinhessen and
Rheinpfalz regions, this cross of Riesling and Sylvaner was created in
1916 by botanist George Scheu (Rebe means "vine")." -Wine Lover's
Companion. Ron Herbst and Sharon Tyler Herbst. Copyright 1995.

Guess my source is out of date?

>
> > TRAMINER: Also called GEWÜRTZTRAMINER or ROTER TRAMINER ...
> ^
> Here we have the wrong T once again.
>
> > (gewurtz means "spicy" in German.)
> ^
> Spelling is "Gewürz", and it's not "spicy" but "spice".
>
Damn my German! Oh wait... I don't speak any German of consequence.
Thanks for that one!

> > ... Gewürtztraminer ...
> ^
> Hmmm.
>
> > WELSCHRIESLING: ... this grape is used almost exclusively for
> > production of dessert wines ...
>
> Sorry, no. Welschriesling is the light and bone dry wine in just
> about *every* vineyard in Styria, where it's the number one grape
> variety (22%); in total Austria it's share is 6%, making it the
> number three white wine grape after Veltliner and Müller-Thurgau.
> And don't forget the Welschriesling from around Poysdorf used to
> produce much of Austria's very best sparkling wines.

Myopic view situation here. My Styrian vintner pals didn't push the
Welschriesling on me, so i did not realize that it was what "the
masses" there were quaffing. Rookie mistake.

>
>
> > BLAUFRÄNKISCH ... Also called LIMBERGER.
>
> But very rarely so in Austria.
I'm trying to bring in folks from all over, so that they can come to
some comparison. So if there are any others where i didn't mention a
common other name, please let me know.

>
> > MERLOT: Red wine grape not widely planted in Austria but finding
> > popularity over in neighboring Hungary.
>
> Merlot has been widely planted in Austria lately and enjoys a fast
> growing popularity as cuvée partner in many of Austria's finest
> reds.

Do you know how widely grown? I couldn't find a figure on that.

>
> > SAINT LAURENT ...
>
> A sämling (offspring) from the pinot group.
>
> > ZWEIGELT ... the result of a somewhat recent crossing of
> > Blaufrankisch and St. Laurent,
>
> If you consider 1922 "somewhat recent", then you are right.

Shockingly, as an American, I do! Something about hanging out in
Austrian cellars hundreds of years older than the U.S.....

>
> > but it also seems to have adopted the best parts of Syrah.
>
> Btw, quite a lot of Syrah has been planted in the last few years
> in Burgenland, and it performs extremely well, you should consider
> adding it to your list.

Favorites?

Thanks for all the notes,
E.

(winemonger) wrote:

[Chardonnay]

>> > and those from the Wachau call it FEINBURGUNDER.

>> Not anymore, this is illegal since a few years.

> Still want to include it. I can mention that anyone using the
> term will be locked up now, however.

Well, I would find a wording like "an attempt to market it under
the name of 'Feinburgunder' never really took off; with Austrian
wine laws adapting to EU regulations, the name was banned, and it
could be used within Austria untill 1999."

>> > GRÜNER SYLVANER ... it comes from a crossing of the Traminer
>> > and "Austrian White" grapes. ...

>> I don't think I have ever seen "Österreichisch Weiß" translated
>> (although literrally it's correct, of course), just as you
>> woudn't translate "Grauburgunder" into "Grey Burgundy".

> No, but I have seen "Weissburgunder" translated as "White
> Burgundy"

Which is totally wrong, of course.

> With the other, i'm just trying to make things accessible.

Better version: "... and Österreichisch Weiss (literally 'Austrian
White')"

>> > Also called RIVANER.

>> Even more frequently it was called Riesling-Silvaner, a name
>> now banned.

> Banned everywhere? This is interesting.

Banned within the EU, but still used in Switzerland.

>> > SAUVIGNON BLANC ... Sometimes called MUSKAT-SYLVANER,

>> Not legally anymore.

> Again, where? And maybe even since when?

Within the EU. The Austrian exception was legal within Austrias
until 1999.

>> > SCHEUREBE: Also called SÄMLING 88, it is a cross of Riesling
>> > and Sylvaner grapes developed in 1916.

>> No. See the link given above. Riesling as parent is correct,
>> but the other is still unknown (and certainly not Silvaner).

> "Scheurebe: The most widely grown in Germany's Rheinhessen and
> Rheinpfalz regions, this cross of Riesling and Sylvaner was
> created in 1916 by botanist George Scheu (Rebe means "vine")."
> -Wine Lover's Companion. Ron Herbst and Sharon Tyler Herbst.
> Copyright 1995.
>
> Guess my source is out of date?

Yes. In recent years many research by genetic fingerprint method
has been done and new parentages have been found.

>> > BLAUFRÄNKISCH ... Also called LIMBERGER.

>> But very rarely so in Austria.

> I'm trying to bring in folks from all over, so that they can
> come to some comparison. So if there are any others where i
> didn't mention a common other name, please let me know.

No problem. 'Rotburger' sometimes is used for Zweigelt, and the
most common name change is 'Zierfandler' which takes the name of
'Spätrot' when vinified in combination with Rotgipfler (very
tradinional in Gumpoldskirchen), so the wine is called
'Spätrot-Rotgipfler'.

>> > MERLOT

> Do you know how widely grown? I couldn't find a figure on that.

Back in 1999 there were 110 hectares, but I guess this figure went
up quite significantly since then.

>> > but it also seems to have adopted the best parts of Syrah.

>> Btw, quite a lot of Syrah has been planted in the last few
>> years in Burgenland, and it performs extremely well, you should
>> consider adding it to your list.

> Favorites?

Gesellmann, Deutschkreutz

<http://www.gesellmann.at/gm/startseite.php>

Leitner, Gols

<http://www.leitner-gols.at/>

Helmut Preisinger, Gols

<http://www.weingut-preisinger.at/preisinger/>

M.

"winemonger" > skrev i melding
om...
> Michael Pronay > wrote in message news:
> > I don't think I have ever seen "Österreichisch Weiß" translated
> > (although literrally it's correct, of course), just as you woudn't
> > translate "Grauburgunder" into "Grey Burgundy".
> No, but I have seen "Weissburgunder" translated as "White Burgundy"
> With the other, i'm just trying to make things accessible.
>
Grauburgunder? You mean Pinot Gris?

Anders

"Anders Tørneskog" > wrote:

> Grauburgunder? You mean Pinot Gris?

Grauburgunder = pinot gris = Ruländer = pinot grigio = szürkebarat
= Klevner (in some parts of the German speaking area) = malvoisie
(Valais) = Tokay d'Alsace (ruled out, and rightly so).

M.