agree with ms macquinty about breathing. just think about the small volume
of air in contact with the wine thru the neck of the bottle.
decanting is another thing......young wine will react with air on decanting
with a short burst of of polymerisation and esterification in the decanter
for around 3-4 hours, enhancing the bouquet and flavor.
older wine may or may not improve on decanting. if it smells sweet in the
bottle, leaver it alone. if it's musty or has thrown a crust, decant but
drink within 2 hours.
very old wine should not be decanted unless it has thrown a crust. and then
it should be drunk immediately or if musty (bottle stink) left for 10-15
minutes.
N

In article >, "Neil R."
> writes:

>agree with ms macquinty about breathing. just think about the small volume
>of air in contact with the wine thru the neck of the bottle.
>decanting is another thing.

Actually, she seems to be interchangably using terms of breathing/decanting,
claiming that any exposure to air does harm. Which, as Ian says, is rubbish
IMHO. I'll say that at the Bordeaux offlines where I regularly participate, it
is considered the norm to double-decant (pour into a decanter, let a little air
expose, then return to bottle -if older wines rinsing sediment from bottle) in
advance. On occasion someone doesn't have opportunity to do so, and almost
invariably wine doesn't show well against its peers. Even the double-decanted
bottles often have wines show further improvement in the glass, as they get
more air.

As to breathing in the bottle, it's true that little is done by just opening
bottle. However, my norm at home if a bottle needs a little air but not
neccessarily decanting -and if I don't feel like washing the decanter - is
to open, pour out one glass, occasionally smelling and taking small sips to
watch evolution. Meanwhile exposed surface area is much larger.

And while we might normally talk of reds and breathing, few wines seem to
appreciate some air as much as youthful good white Burgundies!
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

In article >,
amnspam (Dale Williams) writes:

>Meanwhile exposed surface area is much larger.

To clarify, I meant the exposed area in the bottle is larger once the wine is
down to low shoulder.
Dale

Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply

Salut/Hi Neil R.,

le/on Tue, 27 Jan 2004 09:22:47 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>agree with ms macquinty about breathing. just think about the small volume
>of air in contact with the wine thru the neck of the bottle.

Oops, sorry not to have been clearer.

Opening a bottle an hour, two hours or so ahead of drinking has no
observable effect, IMO, and I'd not describe that as "letting a wine
breathe". Breathing only has any meaning if it's done by decanting - I use
the word (MT take note) in the English sense, of pouring a wine from bottle
to decanter either in order to separate wine from deposit, or to kick start
the oxidation process.

>very old wine should not be decanted unless it has thrown a crust. and then
>it should be drunk immediately or if musty (bottle stink) left for 10-15
>minutes.

Sorry. Again I can't agree here. About 2 1/2 years ago I was lucky enough to
go to a dinner hosted by M & Mme CapdeMourlin at Ch Balestard la Tonnelle,
one of the St Emilion Grand crus Classés. At that dinner we had four
different wines, including a B-l-T 1945. That wine was served decanted (or
carafed) and my first reaction was that the wine was over the top. After
about 20 -30 mins, it really opened out and shone, and the general consensus
of those of us, who like properly mature wine, was that it had been decanted
1/2 hour too late.

Several years ago, a reader asked about when he should decant a bottle of
Haut-Brion 45 (again). The general consensus here was that he should do so
JUST before drinking. When I discovered the ullage level of the wine, I
disagreed and advised decanting at least 1/2 hour, perhaps as long as 2
hours beforehand, advising further that he ask the Chateau. They replied
that 2 hours was about right, if I remember correctly, though it might have
been only an hour. Now if we were talking about Tokaji Aszu, then 1945
wouldn't class as a very old wine, but I think that you _would_ describe a
St Emilion as very old at nearly 50.

>

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

>At that dinner we had four
>different wines, including a B-l-T 1945.

BLT? Your were drinking good wine with bacon,lettuce and tomato sannies??
Forsooth!

My preference is to err on the side of caution and open the wine a very
conservative amount of time ahead of projected drinking time. You can always
wait while it opens in the glass, but if you miss it by allowing it to die
alone, you commit a sin against the wine!

On 27 Jan 2004 19:40:03 GMT, (Bill Spohn) said:

[]
] My preference is to err on the side of caution and open the wine a very
] conservative amount of time ahead of projected drinking time. You can always
] wait while it opens in the glass, but if you miss it by allowing it to die
] alone, you commit a sin against the wine!

Yes, I agree with this where old claret is concerned. Contrary to Mike's
assertion, I have seen wine die in the glass after a while, or so it seemed
anyway. Certainly no general rule, but as Bill says, error on the side of
caution is not such a bad idea with a rare bottle.

I agree generally that the idea that aeration does not improve a certain
set of wines is rubbish. It can also give you an idea (rough) of how a
young wine will age, or whether it's built to age at all.

Keeping in mind that as in all matters of the senses, tasting is subjective,
and I'm certainly willing to accord Ms. what's-her-name her opinion.
But to stateit as a general rule in a populist debunking operation is absurd.

-E
--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

Salut/Hi Bill Spohn,

le/on 27 Jan 2004 19:40:03 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>>At that dinner we had four
>>different wines, including a B-l-T 1945.
>
>BLT? Your were drinking good wine with bacon,lettuce and tomato sannies??
>Forsooth!

I trust this is a gentle leg pull!

>My preference is to err on the side of caution and open the wine a very
>conservative amount of time ahead of projected drinking time. You can always
>wait while it opens in the glass, but if you miss it by allowing it to die
>alone, you commit a sin against the wine!

In general, yes, but only if _you're_ in charge of the timing and the flow
of the meal and the food and your guests are (yes, I know, you only invite
suitably educated guests for wines that good) prepared to be flexible in
timing. My problem is that I want both food AND wine to be perfect at the
same time, and with a roast, for example, you can't expect it to wait for an
hour while the '66 Montrose finally wakes up!

It's a genuine problem, Bill, I know. I agree that it would be a crime to be
drinking your white burgundy with a fish course, while the red wine quietly
dies in the decanter.


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

>>BLT? Your were drinking good wine with bacon,lettuce and tomato sannies??
>>Forsooth!
>
>I trust this is a gentle leg pull!

Bien sur, mon ami!


>>My preference is to err on the side of caution and open the wine a
very>>conservative amount of time ahead of projected drinking time. You can
always>>wait while it opens in the glass, but if you miss it by allowing it to
die>>alone, you commit a sin against the wine!
>>In general, yes, but only if _you're_ in charge of the timing and the flow>of
the meal and the food and your guests are (yes, I know, you only
invite>suitably educated guests for wines that good) prepared to be flexible
in>timing. My problem is that I want both food AND wine to be perfect at
the>same time, and with a roast, for example, you can't expect it to wait for
an>hour while the '66 Montrose finally wakes up!

Yep - comes down to priorities some times - I've even shifted a wine that
refused to open up from main course to later, and had a pause when one opened
too soon, and we just enjoyed that wine with no food (or at least my guests did
- I was mostly still cooking the main course).

Sometimes feel like a juggler - and wish I'd opted for younger wines where this
sort of thing isn't much of an issue - except for the ones you have to open a
day ahead....

>From: Ian Hoare

>Opening a bottle an hour, two hours or so ahead of drinking has no
>observable effect, IMO, and I'd not describe that as "letting a wine
>breathe". Breathing only has any meaning if it's done by decanting - I use
>the word (MT take note) in the
>English sense, of pouring a wine from bottle
>to decanter either in order to separate wine from deposit, or to kick start
>the oxidation process.

Ian

You don't believe that pouring wine out of a bottle over the course of a couple
of hours causes the wine to oxidize (develop)?

I beg to differ on this one. As Dale points out, a partially emptied bottle has
a large surface area exposed to oxygenated air (20%). Repeated pouring
introduces more of this wine to air over the course of the evening. My
experience is that latter glasses served out of an undecanted bottle seem more
developed, especially if considerable time elapses. This is certainly the case
when I served the 88 Duhart Milon last week.

Tom Schellberg

Salut/Hi Xyzsch,

le/on 05 Feb 2004 00:45:19 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

>>From: Ian Hoare
>
>>Opening a bottle an hour, two hours or so ahead of drinking has no
>>observable effect, IMO, and I'd not describe that as "letting a wine
>>breathe". Breathing only has any meaning if it's done by decanting - I use
>>the word (MT take note) in the
>>English sense, of pouring a wine from bottle
>>to decanter either in order to separate wine from deposit, or to kick start
>>the oxidation process.

>You don't believe that pouring wine out of a bottle over the course of a couple
>of hours causes the wine to oxidize (develop)?

When I was replying to this post, it was in the context (in my mind) of
a) taking the cork out and leaving the wine "as is".
or
b) decanting/carafing

As I said to Dale in an earlier thread
Message-ID: >

I accept that pouring a glass or more out of a bottle WILL allow aeration,
and that as a compromise solution in the absence of decanting it's
acceptable.

>I beg to differ on this one. As Dale points out, a partially emptied bottle has
>a large surface area exposed to oxygenated air (20%). Repeated pouring
>introduces more of this wine to air over the course of the evening.

Indeed. However, I do feel that this does not give as good results as
decanting, where ALL the wine gets exposed once and then can develop. It
certainly countas as letting the wine breathe.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Open a bottle a day for 3 days or so. Drink a glass or two when first
opened to allow room for air. Vaccuvan the 3. Open a fourth, and
blind taste all.

Big Cab or Shiraz or mix fresh from OZ does best after a couple days
under vaccuvan to my mind.




On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 02:06:42 +0100, Ian Hoare >
wrote:

>Salut/Hi Xyzsch,
>
> le/on 05 Feb 2004 00:45:19 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>
>>>From: Ian Hoare
>>
>>>Opening a bottle an hour, two hours or so ahead of drinking has no
>>>observable effect, IMO, and I'd not describe that as "letting a wine
>>>breathe". Breathing only has any meaning if it's done by decanting - I use
>>>the word (MT take note) in the
>>>English sense, of pouring a wine from bottle
>>>to decanter either in order to separate wine from deposit, or to kick start
>>>the oxidation process.
>
>>You don't believe that pouring wine out of a bottle over the course of a couple
>>of hours causes the wine to oxidize (develop)?
>
>When I was replying to this post, it was in the context (in my mind) of
>a) taking the cork out and leaving the wine "as is".
>or
>b) decanting/carafing
>
>As I said to Dale in an earlier thread
>Message-ID: >
>
>I accept that pouring a glass or more out of a bottle WILL allow aeration,
>and that as a compromise solution in the absence of decanting it's
>acceptable.
>
>>I beg to differ on this one. As Dale points out, a partially emptied bottle has
>>a large surface area exposed to oxygenated air (20%). Repeated pouring
>>introduces more of this wine to air over the course of the evening.
>
>Indeed. However, I do feel that this does not give as good results as
>decanting, where ALL the wine gets exposed once and then can develop. It
>certainly countas as letting the wine breathe.

Salut/Hi gerald,

le/on Thu, 05 Feb 2004 17:59:27 -0500, tu disais/you said:-

>Open a bottle a day for 3 days or so. Drink a glass or two when first
>opened to allow room for air. Vaccuvan the 3. Open a fourth, and
>blind taste all.
>
>Big Cab or Shiraz or mix fresh from OZ does best after a couple days
>under vaccuvan to my mind.

Thank you for your suggestion. But

a) I know what the effects of air on wine are.
b) I've no intention of opening 4 bottles to satisfy someone _else's_
curiosity.
c) I don't have access to the sort of wine you describe.
d) I have no problems over decanting a bottle of wine.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

>
>>I beg to differ on this one. As Dale points out, a partially emptied bottle
>has
>>a large surface area exposed to oxygenated air (20%). Repeated pouring
>>introduces more of this wine to air over the course of the evening.
>
>Indeed. However, I do feel that this does not give as good results as
>decanting, where ALL the wine gets exposed once and then can develop. It
>certainly countas as letting the wine breathe.
>
>--
>All the Best
>Ian Hoare
>
>
Thanks for clarifying Ian.

Tom Schellberg
>
>
>