Detox Ontario
The same tired arguments are heard every time someone suggests
privatizing the LCBO. Thankfully, all four are easy to debunk

Mark Milke
Financial Post


Wednesday, January 14, 2004


To balance the budget, Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty is considering
privatizing the Liquor Control Board of Ontario, a market giant with
45% of Ontario's alcohol sales. He can expect the following
disinformation campaign from the usual suspects.

- Claim #1: "Ontario has the second lowest prices in the country after
New Brunswick." The LCBO made this claim vis-a-vis Alberta in a March,
2002, letter to the National Post based on a 2001 study. At the time,
I (and colleagues at the Canadian Taxpayers Federation where I worked)
requested this report on at least three occasions; the LCBO refused to
release it and as of this week still won't release its latest full
survey of cross-country prices. The LCBO spokesperson informed me that
such studies are not "publicly published documents." So, a government
Crown makes an empirical claim but is unwilling to allow consumers --
the people who own and patronize the chain -- to fact-check the
study's data and assumptions themselves. That's revealing.

Regardless, much of the price in booze is tax. Once it's taken out of
the equation, I bet many stores in Alberta undercut LCBO stores on
many products. From the bare-bones comparison the LCBO gave me, I can
report (based on personal buying experience) that some items the LCBO
claims are a better buy in Ontario are in fact cheaper in Alberta.
Ironically, one of the best price competitors in Alberta is
Ontario-owned Loblaws, which operates retail liquor stores in Alberta
(under a different name) but cannot yet do so in its home province.

- Claim #2: "Ontario has better product selection than private sector
Alberta."

Wrong again. Alberta has 18,800 listings in total (11,300 active with
another 7,500 available on short notice) compared to Ontario with
13,600 in total (6,600 active with another 7,000 quickly available).
Also, here's a critical difference for entrepreneurs: In Alberta, an
enterprising business can import any product, stock it in the
wholesale warehouse, pay a monthly fee and then hawk it to the
province's 1,000 private stores. In Ontario, importers must apply to
the LCBO. If LCBO buyers agree to stock it, great; if not, those who
want to crack Ontario's retail market are out of luck.

A related Ontario claim is that LCBO stores, including in smaller
cities, stock many more products on average than a private Alberta
store. This argument is not exactly helpful to the advocates of
government-owned stores; it's hardly the responsibility of government
to ensure a similarly wide variety of spirits, beer and wine in every
store in every hamlet. Sensibly, a private liquor store in an Italian
neighbourhood in Edmonton will have a vastly different and specialized
selection of wine compared to a beer depot in a blue-collar suburb. In
the private sector, over-stocking is not a virtue; it is money that
sits on the shelf and is costly for the owner, or in the case of
government stores, to taxpayers.

- Claim #3: "Crime has increased at liquor stores in Alberta."

Calgary police statistics are clear on this point: The chances of
seeing a crime, or being a victim of one at a liquor store, was
greater before privatization than since. While the number of crimes at
liquor stores has risen since privatization -- hardly surprising given
that there eight times the number of stores in Calgary now compared to
pre-privatization -- in every year except 1999, the rate of crime
(i.e., the number of offences per store) -- has dropped.

- Claim #4: "Privatize the LCBO and the Ontario government will lose
$975-million transferred to it annually from LCBO profits."

This is perhaps the most alluring argument given for governments to
keep their state-owned booze outlets. It is repeated by government
unions that staff the liquor stores and by left-wing politicians who
want the state to keep ownership of whatever; it is also nonsense.

In Alberta, the government received $402-million from government
liquor stores in the year before privatization; this year, the
government will reap $545-million. Since privatization 10 years ago,
private liquor stores have paid almost $4.6-billion in liquor mark-up
taxes to the Alberta treasury. That money didn't flow to government
because private stores felt charitable towards the provincial
treasury. The government continued to impose its liquor mark-ups on
beer wine and spirits; the only difference is that it no longer
operates retail stores.

When German Chancellor Otto von Bismarck came up with the idea of the
welfare state in the late 19th century, it was for sensible items such
as old-age pensions and welfare for the poor. Now, defenders of the
government-must-run-everything-it-currently-does school argue
government should stay in the business of selling Miller's and Merlot.
The Ontario premier should indeed consider exiting the booze business.

In article >,
says...
> Detox Ontario
> The same tired arguments are heard every time someone suggests
> privatizing the LCBO. Thankfully, all four are easy to debunk
>
> Mark Milke
> Financial Post
>
>
> Wednesday, January 14, 2004
>
>
> To balance the budget, Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty is considering
> privatizing the Liquor Control Board of Ontario, a market giant with
> 45% of Ontario's alcohol sales. He can expect the following
> disinformation campaign from the usual suspects.
>
<snip>
> - Claim #2: "Ontario has better product selection than private sector
> Alberta."
>
> Wrong again. Alberta has 18,800 listings in total (11,300 active with
> another 7,500 available on short notice) compared to Ontario with
> 13,600 in total (6,600 active with another 7,000 quickly available).
> Also, here's a critical difference for entrepreneurs: In Alberta, an
> enterprising business can import any product, stock it in the
> wholesale warehouse, pay a monthly fee and then hawk it to the
> province's 1,000 private stores. In Ontario, importers must apply to
> the LCBO. If LCBO buyers agree to stock it, great; if not, those who
> want to crack Ontario's retail market are out of luck.

You have buried a lot of conservative right wing political rhetoric in
that diatribe. Too bad the voters got sick of the managerial incompetence
of political ideologues and threw them out.

I do not want the liquor distribution situation in Ontario to follow the
great "privatization" movement that allowed U.S. banks to enter Canada
and cherry pick prime branches in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver and
ignore the rest of Canada. In Ontario, the former right wing government
also thought it would be a good idea to loosen regulations in licensing
inter city bus lines that required them to serivce small towns if they
wanted to service the heavily used and highly profitable Windsor -
Toronto - Ottawa routes on the major expressways. The private businesses
promptly gave notice that they would abandon all the small town routes
and the meagre, if any, profits with them. Outside of the major cities,
most of Ontario is spread out like Texas. One school district in Northern
Ontario is the size of Scotland, and you could drop kick Texas into the
unoccupied parts of Ontario and not even notice it. Since there were not
even any train services to most of these towns, the politicians finally
came to their senses and backed off.

My experience has been that private business is only interested in
pushing the most volume at the most profit a la Walmart or any other big
retailer. They are not going to bother bringing variety or quiality into
smaller towns. This is a political argument, and like religious
arguments, best left to fanatics. Leave the wine to people who enjoy it.

Besides, those idiots in Alberta still call a 12 pack of beer a full
case! ;-))

Dennis
Windsor, Ontario

On 1/16/04 10:43 PM, in article ,
"Dennis Rekuta" > wrote:

> My experience has been that private business is only interested in
> pushing the most volume at the most profit a la Walmart or any other big
> retailer.

Certainly that is the most visible and stereotypical outcome. Though
Wal-mart's margins are rather thin.

Private Enterprise will also support a few stores of the boutique variety -
the kind that people from this NG would patronize. Here in Upstate NY,
there are a number of great wine shops of various sizes. Because of
regulations, though, I can't ring up a winery and have a bottle of something
mailed to me without committing a felony. That is where regulation makes me
angry.

>They are not going to bother bringing variety or quiality into
> smaller towns. This is a political argument, and like religious
> arguments, best left to fanatics. Leave the wine to people who enjoy it.

I am not sure they will or won't - are you saying that smaller townsfolk are
not likely to want to buy a variety or quality wines? In the times where I
have lived in small towns the local shop has usually been more than happy to
special order stuff for me.

I am not sure that government or big retail will appear to be much different
in the final analysis. I think it is the smaller shop with a knowledgeable
owner that we would most like to encourage!

Dennis Rekuta > wrote in message >. ..
> You have buried a lot of conservative right wing political rhetoric in
> that diatribe. Too bad the voters got sick of the managerial incompetence
> of political ideologues and threw them out.


Well for one I didn't write the article, I just posted it. However I
did happily vote Liberal in the last election, and I'm still glad I
did.

This is not a right/left wing issue. It's a question of not cutting
social services in my province, and if getting government out of the
monopoly retail business helps, than so be it.


> I do not want the liquor distribution situation in Ontario to follow the
> great "privatization" movement that allowed U.S. banks to enter Canada
> and cherry pick prime branches in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver and
> ignore the rest of Canada. In Ontario, the former right wing government
> also thought it would be a good idea to loosen regulations in licensing
> inter city bus lines that required them to serivce small towns if they
> wanted to service the heavily used and highly profitable Windsor -
> Toronto - Ottawa routes on the major expressways. The private businesses
> promptly gave notice that they would abandon all the small town routes
> and the meagre, if any, profits with them. Outside of the major cities,
> most of Ontario is spread out like Texas. One school district in Northern
> Ontario is the size of Scotland, and you could drop kick Texas into the
> unoccupied parts of Ontario and not even notice it. Since there were not
> even any train services to most of these towns, the politicians finally
> came to their senses and backed off.

Good point, so let's do what Alberta did. Right now, only Canadian
companies have licenses to sell retial alcohol in the province, no
need to change that rule for Ontario.

You are however comparing retail to roads, banks and essential
services which I think is really unfair, please do not disrespect our
fine social workers.


> My experience has been that private business is only interested in
> pushing the most volume at the most profit a la Walmart or any other big
> retailer. They are not going to bother bringing variety or quiality into
> smaller towns. This is a political argument, and like religious
> arguments, best left to fanatics. Leave the wine to people who enjoy it.



At Wal-mart, yes, it's profit profit profit, which is why they should
not be allowed to sell alcohol in Ontario. As for bringing variety or
selection to smaller towns in Ontario...have you BEEN to a small city
store? The new mandate at the LCBO is "Reduce selection by carring
less brands", ask a manager, they will not list your fav wine in the
store just because you ask. They only way new brands come in is when
they are forced, and then they have to remove another brand from the
shelf. At least in a private system the manager has say in what is
being carried, unlike today's LCBO.

You live in Windsor? That city and surrounding area just last year
pushed through the new mandate. Wonder why there are 5 cases of Piat
D'or on the shelf?

Here's another Gem for you....the LCBO is NOT considering ANY new
Vintage listings until 2005. None. Not one. If it wasn't already
ordered last year, it's not coming in at all.

Heard of any new and exciting wines that are up and coming? Too bad if
you live in Ontario, try getting Willow Park in Calgary, AB to ship it
to you.

There is no reason why a grain farmer in Alberta should have a better
selection than someone visiting Toronto from Hollywood.

Lucky farmer, lucky indeed.

Bromo > wrote in message >...

> Private Enterprise will also support a few stores of the boutique variety -
> the kind that people from this NG would patronize. Here in Upstate NY,
> there are a number of great wine shops of various sizes. Because of
> regulations, though, I can't ring up a winery and have a bottle of something
> mailed to me without committing a felony. That is where regulation makes me
> angry.


Buffalo. Perfect example. Drive to Buffalo from Toronto, and you will
see how wine retailing SHOULD be done.

Hear that? Consumers of fine wine in Buffalo have a better selection
than Toronto consumers. (Not meant as a slap to Buffalo, more of a
compliment)

On 1/17/04 3:44 PM, in article
, "Peter Miller"
> wrote:

> Bromo > wrote in message
> >...
>
>> Private Enterprise will also support a few stores of the boutique variety -
>> the kind that people from this NG would patronize. Here in Upstate NY,
>> there are a number of great wine shops of various sizes. Because of
>> regulations, though, I can't ring up a winery and have a bottle of something
>> mailed to me without committing a felony. That is where regulation makes me
>> angry.
>
>
> Buffalo. Perfect example. Drive to Buffalo from Toronto, and you will
> see how wine retailing SHOULD be done.
>
> Hear that? Consumers of fine wine in Buffalo have a better selection
> than Toronto consumers. (Not meant as a slap to Buffalo, more of a
> compliment)

I am located in Rochester, haven't been to the Buffalo shops - sounds like I
should check it out.

Also, don't leave out NYC.

>
> You live in Windsor? That city and surrounding area just last year
> pushed through the new mandate. Wonder why there are 5 cases of Piat
> D'or on the shelf?
>

What is this new Windsor mandate?

(Joe Bidwell) wrote in message . com>...

> What is this new Windsor mandate?

Carry less brands on the shelf, that way the store has less bottles to
count.

Reduced selection is the end result. Can't find the product you want,
well too bad, drive 100Km to the next town, maybe they have it.

And it's not just Windsor, it's the whole province.

On 18 Jan 2004 07:07:47 -0800, (Peter
Miller) wrote:

>Carry less brands on the shelf, that way the store has less bottles to
>count.
>
>Reduced selection is the end result. Can't find the product you want,
>well too bad, drive 100Km to the next town, maybe they have it.
>
>And it's not just Windsor, it's the whole province.

That's a load of bull. All you have to do is ask and they will get
whatever you want. *ANY* liquor store in Ontario will get you *ANY*
product in the LCBO's regular listings on a few days notice. No
charge, and no minimum order quantity. Vintages items can also be
order on the same basis, but not until 7 days after release. I have
found it is quicker if another local store has stock (usually next
day) rather than coming from the warehouse (closer to a week).

You can do stock inquiries on any item (regular listing or Vintages)
on the LCBO website. Once you find an item, you can find out which,
if any, stores have stock in any particular city.

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Al,

I want my wine NOW. Anything else is not acceptable. I want my wine
sold at the 24-7 grocery store down the street from my house, and I
want a selection of a couple thousand different varieties of wine to
choose from. Anything else is not good enough. This is how it is
done in Detroit. This is how it is done in every other country in the
world, excluding scandinavia (but they sell beer in the grocery stores
in scandinavia). I want better service. The LCBO is pretty but the
service, selection, location, and of course price sucks ass. The LCBO
is just not good enough. I can do better personally. I would
mortgage my house and open up a store if I could, but I am not allowed
to.
Ontario is so Low Self Esteem WASP Protestant its a 2nd rate laughing
stock.

On 18 Jan 2004 22:56:24 -0800, (Joe Bidwell)
wrote:

>I want my wine NOW. Anything else is not acceptable.

The stuff I want NOW comes usually from my cellar, not the store. The
liquor store is for restocking the cellar.

>I want my wine
>sold at the 24-7 grocery store down the street from my house, and I
>want a selection of a couple thousand different varieties of wine to
>choose from. Anything else is not good enough. This is how it is
>done in Detroit. This is how it is done in every other country in the
>world, excluding scandinavia (but they sell beer in the grocery stores
>in scandinavia).

My experience shopping for wine in 24/7 grocery stores in the US is
that the selection is poor, and the prices in general aren't any lower
than they are in Ontario. I think the grocery store model sucks.

I *can* see an argument for the "specialty shop" model. But they
won't be on every corner. Look back a few posts at what "Bromo" said.
He lives in Rochester and said he should check out the shops in
Buffalo!

I can shop the LCBO and Vintages websites, check stock online, and
then go to the closest store with the CSPC (stock) number and say get
me some. Who has to travel 100KM?

>I want better service. The LCBO is pretty but the
>service, selection, location, and of course price sucks ass. The LCBO
>is just not good enough.

I don't know where you live, but the stores in Kitchener/Waterloo that
I frequent have bend over backwards service. Of all of the large
retail places I shop I'd rate the LCBO right at the top in customer
service.

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I can give to addresses of five grocery stores and supermarkets in
Metro Detroit that have better selection than the LCBO superstore in
Downtown Toronto. I'm serious. And the prices are MUCH better too.
There is no reason why mostAustralian wine should cost more than $10.


> My experience shopping for wine in 24/7 grocery stores in the US is
> that the selection is poor, and the prices in general aren't any lower
> than they are in Ontario. I think the grocery store model sucks.

On 1/19/04 8:35 AM, in article ,
"Al Rudderham" > wrote:

> On 18 Jan 2004 22:56:24 -0800, (Joe Bidwell)
> wrote:
>
>> I want my wine NOW. Anything else is not acceptable.
>
> The stuff I want NOW comes usually from my cellar, not the store. The
> liquor store is for restocking the cellar.

Glad you have a system to cope with it! :-)

>> I want my wine
>> sold at the 24-7 grocery store down the street from my house, and I
>> want a selection of a couple thousand different varieties of wine to
>> choose from. Anything else is not good enough. This is how it is
>> done in Detroit. This is how it is done in every other country in the
>> world, excluding scandinavia (but they sell beer in the grocery stores
>> in scandinavia).
>
> My experience shopping for wine in 24/7 grocery stores in the US is
> that the selection is poor, and the prices in general aren't any lower
> than they are in Ontario. I think the grocery store model sucks.

Are you saying the state stores in Ontario are every bit as good a a grocery
store that stocks wine in the US? Have you seen California stores, or the
store in MO that I worked in as a teenager? How about a wine store in the
US?

I mean, I can chime in that I would like wine to be able to be stocked
wherever someone wants to stock it - because more availability is better,
generally.

In the US the wine and other alcohol trade is fraught with a thicket of
local and state laws and taxes, so it can hardly be seen as free and
unfettered. Still, when I was living in California, there was an excellent
selection of wines at the grocery store, as well are the more rare ones in
liquor stores that specialized in wine.


> I *can* see an argument for the "specialty shop" model. But they
> won't be on every corner. Look back a few posts at what "Bromo" said.
> He lives in Rochester and said he should check out the shops in
> Buffalo!

I did not mean that in the way you painted it AT ALL!! The stores in
Rochester are excellent, BUT, one can never have too many wine shops -
hence, my desire to check them out (is only 1 hour away from me). Not
because "free enterprise" is falling short in Rochester (it isn't: We have
2 giant wine stores, and 2 smaller good ones, and at least 2-3 ones I
haven't visited yet), just that I am perfectly willing to drive an hour for
exploring another wine shop!.

> I can shop the LCBO and Vintages websites, check stock online, and
> then go to the closest store with the CSPC (stock) number and say get
> me some. Who has to travel 100KM?

Wonderful - I am glad the service works well for you - it had better work
for someone given the complaints many have made about it!

On 19 Jan 2004 13:52:29 -0800, (Joe Bidwell)
wrote:

>I can give to addresses of five grocery stores and supermarkets in
>Metro Detroit that have better selection than the LCBO superstore in
>Downtown Toronto. I'm serious.

In your previous post you said "I want my wine sold at the 24-7
grocery store down the street from my house". Five grocery stores in
Detroit does NOT put one on every corner. If you want to argue that
there will be a few stores *somewhere* with better selection, I'll
give you that. I just doubt they will be the ones "down the street".

>And the prices are MUCH better too.
>There is no reason why mostAustralian wine should cost more than $10.

How about exchange? How about taxes? Neither of those will change if
the LCBO is privatized.

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On 1/20/04 10:20 AM, in article ,
"Al Rudderham" > wrote:

>> I can give to addresses of five grocery stores and supermarkets in
>> Metro Detroit that have better selection than the LCBO superstore in
>> Downtown Toronto. I'm serious.
>
> In your previous post you said "I want my wine sold at the 24-7
> grocery store down the street from my house". Five grocery stores in
> Detroit does NOT put one on every corner. If you want to argue that
> there will be a few stores *somewhere* with better selection, I'll
> give you that. I just doubt they will be the ones "down the street".

Unless you are very, very lucky or the stores can spot a "mark" from a mile
away! :-)

In a monopolized system such as we have in Ontario, where does an Ontario
Winery or Import agent sell his wine when the LCBO does want to list it, or
when it becomes de-listed by the LCBO??

"Bromo" > wrote in message
...
> On 1/19/04 8:35 AM, in article ,
> "Al Rudderham" > wrote:
>
> > On 18 Jan 2004 22:56:24 -0800, (Joe Bidwell)
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I want my wine NOW. Anything else is not acceptable.
> >
> > The stuff I want NOW comes usually from my cellar, not the store. The
> > liquor store is for restocking the cellar.
>
> Glad you have a system to cope with it! :-)
>
> >> I want my wine
> >> sold at the 24-7 grocery store down the street from my house, and I
> >> want a selection of a couple thousand different varieties of wine to
> >> choose from. Anything else is not good enough. This is how it is
> >> done in Detroit. This is how it is done in every other country in the
> >> world, excluding scandinavia (but they sell beer in the grocery stores
> >> in scandinavia).
> >
> > My experience shopping for wine in 24/7 grocery stores in the US is
> > that the selection is poor, and the prices in general aren't any lower
> > than they are in Ontario. I think the grocery store model sucks.
>
> Are you saying the state stores in Ontario are every bit as good a a
grocery
> store that stocks wine in the US? Have you seen California stores, or the
> store in MO that I worked in as a teenager? How about a wine store in the
> US?
>
> I mean, I can chime in that I would like wine to be able to be stocked
> wherever someone wants to stock it - because more availability is better,
> generally.
>
> In the US the wine and other alcohol trade is fraught with a thicket of
> local and state laws and taxes, so it can hardly be seen as free and
> unfettered. Still, when I was living in California, there was an
excellent
> selection of wines at the grocery store, as well are the more rare ones in
> liquor stores that specialized in wine.
>
>
> > I *can* see an argument for the "specialty shop" model. But they
> > won't be on every corner. Look back a few posts at what "Bromo" said.
> > He lives in Rochester and said he should check out the shops in
> > Buffalo!
>
> I did not mean that in the way you painted it AT ALL!! The stores in
> Rochester are excellent, BUT, one can never have too many wine shops -
> hence, my desire to check them out (is only 1 hour away from me). Not
> because "free enterprise" is falling short in Rochester (it isn't: We
have
> 2 giant wine stores, and 2 smaller good ones, and at least 2-3 ones I
> haven't visited yet), just that I am perfectly willing to drive an hour
for
> exploring another wine shop!.
>
> > I can shop the LCBO and Vintages websites, check stock online, and
> > then go to the closest store with the CSPC (stock) number and say get
> > me some. Who has to travel 100KM?
>
> Wonderful - I am glad the service works well for you - it had better work
> for someone given the complaints many have made about it!
>

Bromo > wrote in message >...
> On 1/19/04 8:35 AM, in article ,
> "Al Rudderham" > wrote:

> > I can shop the LCBO and Vintages websites, check stock online, and
> > then go to the closest store with the CSPC (stock) number and say get
> > me some. Who has to travel 100KM?
>
> Wonderful - I am glad the service works well for you - it had better work
> for someone given the complaints many have made about it!

Fine, let's settle the argument.

LCBO - http://www.lcbo.com (paste into browser)
Total brands in stock across province - 5,000 (Average is 1,000 per
store and falling)

One Calgary Private store - http://www.willowpark.net/

Total brands in this ONE store - 7,000

As for your "Who has to travel 100km?" This private store delivers all
it's products, and they don't have a monopoly.

On 20 Jan 2004 21:31:44 -0800, (Peter
Miller) wrote:

>One Calgary Private store - http://www.willowpark.net/

Since their website doesn't return the correct info perhaps you can
tell us whether they charge for delivery, and whether they deliver
anywhere in Alberta? If they do charge, how much?

Also do their prices include ALL taxes (including GST) or are they
added at the register.

Their website seems substantially broken, so it is hard to tell what
they really have to offer. I tried to search for Wolf Blass under
wines (which claims to be the biggest selling brand in Ontario) but it
does not show prices, and shows 0ml (a new economy size? ;-) for many
of the wines it returned. I couldn't find a single wine that it
returned prices for. Tried Lindemans, Wolf Blass, Gallo Sonoma,
Concha y Toro, and Miguel Torres among others. Prices on a few
spirits I found seem generally to be lower than Ontario by amount of
GST, which is why I ask if they add tax at register. Some spirits
were higher priced than LCBO.

Perhaps the in-store experience is better, but their website doesn't
offer enough info to let you shop online. I'm underwhelmed.

>LCBO - http://www.lcbo.com (paste into browser)
>Total brands in stock across province - 5,000 (Average is 1,000 per
>store and falling)

Those numbers don't match what the LCBO claims in their most recent
(albeit stale) annual report available on their website. They claim
12,000 "products available", 78 stores offering 2500 or more brands,
196 stores offering 1500 to 2000, and 165 stores offering 1000 to 1500
brands.

I guess the issue here is "available" vs. "in stock". I don't see the
big attraction of "in stock". It's not like I'm going to browse
thousands (or even hundreds) of products when I'm in the store anyway.
As long as stuff is available on short notice that's good enough for
me.

>As for your "Who has to travel 100km?" This private store delivers all
>it's products, and they don't have a monopoly.

So the answer is that nobody has to travel 100km. I agree. It was
the comment that somebody in Windsor had to travel 100KM to get wine I
disageed with. The person in Windsor just has to place an order and
wait a few days. Glad that is settled anyway.



I suspect the bottom line here is that it is at least partially a
"Toronto" vs. "rest of Ontario" issue. I wonder how well Willow Park
serves places like Lethbridge, Cardston, and Medicine Hat. I don't
doubt that if the LCBO was privatized folks in Toronto would gain, but
folks (like me) who live in smaller centers would lose.

I'm NOT in favour of changing the LCBO to provide better
service/selection in Toronto and other large centers at the expense of
what the LCBO provides today in smaller places.

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"Dave Gimbel" > wrote in message >...
> In a monopolized system such as we have in Ontario, where does an Ontario
> Winery or Import agent sell his wine when the LCBO does want to list it, or
> when it becomes de-listed by the LCBO??
>

<snip>

Assuming you meant LCBO does *not* want to list...
AFAIK, agencies wouldn't import a wine if the LCBO won't list....if
they did, it would be small amounts, directly consigned to
restaurants or private order (which is a fairly recent development)

As far as de-listing, it's their worst nightmare....they would
probably do everything in their power to keep a product from being
de-listed.
If it was de-listed, it would probably happen in a phase-out so the
importer would stop importing more of the wine and hopefully not get
burned too much.

As for the Ontario wineries, they're a little safer; the LCBO
guarantees them (officially or unofficially, not sure) a certain
amount of listings. One of the big advantages that has helped (but
probably now hurts) the Ontario wine industry.
The worst thing for them is for something to go from general list to
Vintages or more likely the LCBO waiting a long time to offer the
wine, forcing the winery to hold back a lot in stock.

On 1/21/04 12:31 AM, in article
, "Peter Miller"
> wrote:

> Bromo > wrote in message
> >...
>> On 1/19/04 8:35 AM, in article ,
>> "Al Rudderham" > wrote:
>
>>> I can shop the LCBO and Vintages websites, check stock online, and
>>> then go to the closest store with the CSPC (stock) number and say get
>>> me some. Who has to travel 100KM?
>>
>> Wonderful - I am glad the service works well for you - it had better work
>> for someone given the complaints many have made about it!
>
> Fine, let's settle the argument.
>
> LCBO - http://www.lcbo.com (paste into browser)
> Total brands in stock across province - 5,000 (Average is 1,000 per
> store and falling)
>
> One Calgary Private store - http://www.willowpark.net/
>
> Total brands in this ONE store - 7,000
>
> As for your "Who has to travel 100km?" This private store delivers all
> it's products, and they don't have a monopoly.

Excellent store by any standard!

(Peter Muto) wrote in message . com>...
> "Dave Gimbel" > wrote in message >...
> > In a monopolized system such as we have in Ontario, where does an Ontario
> > Winery or Import agent sell his wine when the LCBO does want to list it, or
> > when it becomes de-listed by the LCBO??
> >
>
> <snip>

This may not be a problem much longer...

Toronto Star - Jan. 22, 2004

Liberals like idea of stores showcasing Ontario wines
ROBERT BENZIE
QUEEN'S PARK BUREAU

The provincial government is considering opening specialty stores
devoted to selling high-end Ontario wines.

Agriculture Minister Steve Peters said yesterday the Liberals are
impressed by a private member's bill introduced by Conservative MPP
Tim Hudak (Erie-Lincoln).

Under Hudak's legislation, Vintner's Quality Alliance (VQA) wineries,
which make wine using grapes grown in Ontario, would be allowed to
open shops selling a variety of elite brands.

"We're certainly supportive of moving in the direction of the
establishment of the VQA stores and I'd like to work with Tim in
moving his private member's bill through. I see it as something we do
need to be supportive of to help grow the industry," Peters said,
noting some trade issues may have to be resolved to allow the
boutiques.

Peters noted that opening VQA stores would benefit farmers by
promoting Ontario wine and bring increased tax revenue into provincial
coffers.

Unlike Wine Rack stalls — located in scores of Ontario supermarkets
but only selling brands such as Inniskillin, Jackson-Triggs and
Sawmill Creek — the prestige stores would sell wine from many
independent wineries.

And unlike the Liquor Control Board of Ontario, the outlets would be
restricted to selling domestic wine.

Hudak, who first proposed the scheme when he was consumer and business
services minister, said B.C. has had VQA stores for years. Ontario
could initially set up stores in high traffic tourism areas, he said,
noting a Niagara store could promote local product.

Small wineries have had difficulty getting their wines on shelves of
the LCBO, which is dominated by budget products from Australia, South
America and Europe. "There's definitely a need for this," said Daniel
Lenko, whose Beamsville winery produces some of the best vintages in
the province.

Notice they mention that the government will still hold on to the
reins. When it comes to retailing, government can't run a first class
operation. Am I stupid for suggesting that the winemakers be given
the power of driving down to the nearest corner store or small grocery
and retailing their product down the street in the local store? Geez.
Can't do that. You know those rascally teenagers will buy that
Icewine while being underage and they will drink and drive and cause
fights while getting drunk on a $60 bottle of icewine.


> > > In a monopolized system such as we have in Ontario, where does an Ontario
> > > Winery or Import agent sell his wine when the LCBO does want to list it, or
> > > when it becomes de-listed by the LCBO??
> > >
> >
> > <snip>
>
> This may not be a problem much longer...
>
> Toronto Star - Jan. 22, 2004
>
> Liberals like idea of stores showcasing Ontario wines
> ROBERT BENZIE
> QUEEN'S PARK BUREAU
>
> The provincial government is considering opening specialty stores
> devoted to selling high-end Ontario wines.
>
> Agriculture Minister Steve Peters said yesterday the Liberals are
> impressed by a private member's bill introduced by Conservative MPP
> Tim Hudak (Erie-Lincoln).
>
> Under Hudak's legislation, Vintner's Quality Alliance (VQA) wineries,
> which make wine using grapes grown in Ontario, would be allowed to
> open shops selling a variety of elite brands.
>
> "We're certainly supportive of moving in the direction of the
> establishment of the VQA stores and I'd like to work with Tim in
> moving his private member's bill through. I see it as something we do
> need to be supportive of to help grow the industry," Peters said,
> noting some trade issues may have to be resolved to allow the
> boutiques.
>
> Peters noted that opening VQA stores would benefit farmers by
> promoting Ontario wine and bring increased tax revenue into provincial
> coffers.
>
> Unlike Wine Rack stalls ? located in scores of Ontario supermarkets
> but only selling brands such as Inniskillin, Jackson-Triggs and
> Sawmill Creek ? the prestige stores would sell wine from many
> independent wineries.
>
> And unlike the Liquor Control Board of Ontario, the outlets would be
> restricted to selling domestic wine.
>
> Hudak, who first proposed the scheme when he was consumer and business
> services minister, said B.C. has had VQA stores for years. Ontario
> could initially set up stores in high traffic tourism areas, he said,
> noting a Niagara store could promote local product.
>
> Small wineries have had difficulty getting their wines on shelves of
> the LCBO, which is dominated by budget products from Australia, South
> America and Europe. "There's definitely a need for this," said Daniel
> Lenko, whose Beamsville winery produces some of the best vintages in
> the province.