Tonight with a dinner of barbeque ribs and leftover paella, I opened:

2003 Navarro Vineyards Dry Mendocino Riesling
nose: white peaches, petrol
palate: medium-light body, crisp, white peaches, lime, a hint of petrol

With the BBQ, this wine really shone, with the lime fruit coming to the
fore. This wine is bone dry and comparable to many of the better '04
QbA Rieslings that I've had over the past 2-3 years, such as those by
Selbach-Oster, Willi Schäfer and Dr. Loosen. Unlike its antipodean
counterparts, this wine had a distinct sense of stonefruit in addition
to the citrus character. Thoroughly enjoyable and worth the $17 I paid
for it.

Mark Lipton
--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.hostexcellence.com

I recall tasting this wine a couple years back when I visited the
Anderson Valley wineries. My notes are only fair - 'she who must be
obeyed' wasn;t impressed, I liked it but din't find the fruit character
too well developed. Sounds like a little bottle aging has served it
well.

But a question - "petrol"? ugh ... Wouldn't that be a rejection notice
for any wine?



On 2007-10-15 20:32:51 -0700, Mark Lipton > said:

> Tonight with a dinner of barbeque ribs and leftover paella, I opened:
>
> 2003 Navarro Vineyards Dry Mendocino Riesling
> nose: white peaches, petrol
> palate: medium-light body, crisp, white peaches, lime, a hint of petrol
>
> With the BBQ, this wine really shone, with the lime fruit coming to the
> fore. This wine is bone dry and comparable to many of the better '04
> QbA Rieslings that I've had over the past 2-3 years, such as those by
> Selbach-Oster, Willi Schäfer and Dr. Loosen. Unlike its antipodean
> counterparts, this wine had a distinct sense of stonefruit in addition
> to the citrus character. Thoroughly enjoyable and worth the $17 I paid
> for it.
>
> Mark Lipton

Ric > wrote in news:2007101608130275249-
ric@donotreplycom:


>
> But a question - "petrol"? ugh ... Wouldn't that be a rejection notice
> for any wine?

Surprisingly, NO! There are a few wine terms that would put anyone off it
they weren't into the lingo. "Cat's Pee" for Sauvignon Blanc esp in
Sancerre is revered. Petrol for Rieslings is a hint on the nose that
actually enchances in the taste. Tar and Menthol might sound odd as well,
but a bit of both on the finish of say a Cab. could be a good thing.

Now, cardboard or wet dog, that is the off putting aroma of TCA, cork
taint, and pretty well universally detested. (I am waiting for that one
contrary individual to exclaim the wonders of TCA infected wine.)



--
Joseph Coulter, cruises and vacations
www.josephcoulter.com

877 832 2021
904 631 8863 cell

On Oct 16, 10:13 am, Ric > wrote:
> I recall tasting this wine a couple years back when I visited the
> Anderson Valley wineries. My notes are only fair - 'she who must be
> obeyed' wasn;t impressed, I liked it but din't find the fruit character
> too well developed. Sounds like a little bottle aging has served it
> well.
>
> But a question - "petrol"? ugh ... Wouldn't that be a rejection notice
> for any wine?

Petrol as used in GB is the same as gasoline as used in the US. This
term has long been used to describe a clean aromatic character
developed by some Riesling, often after many years of age. Crude oil
comes in very different compositions, some having a rather clean
aromatic smell and some being very foul in smell due to H2S and a
variety of other, often sulfur, compounds. The portion of petroleum
called gasoline after it is purified by, cracking, fractional
distillation,etc. has other things added to improve octane rating, to
make it burn cleaner, etc. Some of these additives can influence the
smell. A very highly purified distillate of petroleum in the gasoline
range would have a rather aromatic, clean smell. Those who first
started using petrol to describe the smell developed by old Riesling,
must have had a product made from relatively clean smelling crude oil
in mind. I believe a product called "white gasoline" without additives
was sold at one time for cleaning metal, etc. I have not smelled a
gasoline in the US that smells clean in a very long time.

>
> On 2007-10-15 20:32:51 -0700, Mark Lipton > said:
>
> > Tonight with a dinner of barbeque ribs and leftover paella, I opened:
>
> > 2003 Navarro Vineyards Dry Mendocino Riesling
> > nose: white peaches, petrol
> > palate: medium-light body, crisp, white peaches, lime, a hint of petrol
>
> > With the BBQ, this wine really shone, with the lime fruit coming to the
> > fore. This wine is bone dry and comparable to many of the better '04
> > QbA Rieslings that I've had over the past 2-3 years, such as those by
> > Selbach-Oster, Willi Schäfer and Dr. Loosen. Unlike its antipodean
> > counterparts, this wine had a distinct sense of stonefruit in addition
> > to the citrus character. Thoroughly enjoyable and worth the $17 I paid
> > for it.
>
> > Mark Lipton

Joseph Coulter wrote:

>> But a question - "petrol"? ugh ... Wouldn't that be a rejection notice
>> for any wine?
>
> Surprisingly, NO! There are a few wine terms that would put anyone off it
> they weren't into the lingo. "Cat's Pee" for Sauvignon Blanc esp in
> Sancerre is revered. Petrol for Rieslings is a hint on the nose that
> actually enchances in the taste. Tar and Menthol might sound odd as well,
> but a bit of both on the finish of say a Cab. could be a good thing.

Yes, I tend to like various non-fruit flavors and smells in my wine,
such as the meaty/gamey/funky notes in get in Rhone wines (Brett,
anyone?), the earthy/mushroomy notes in Burgundy, the tarry and peppery
notes in Zin and the minerality of various wines. Menthol and
eucalyptus I can only take in small quantity now, as I find them too
overwhelming (as can be the case with cedar, too).

>
> Now, cardboard or wet dog, that is the off putting aroma of TCA, cork
> taint, and pretty well universally detested. (I am waiting for that one
> contrary individual to exclaim the wonders of TCA infected wine.)

And I'd add to that rotten egg/sulfur and the poopy side of Brett as two
almost universally detested smells in wine.

Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.hostexcellence.com

On Oct 16, 11:52�am, cwdjrxyz > wrote:
> On Oct 16, 10:13 am, Ric > wrote:
>
> > I recall tasting this wine a couple years back when I visited the
> > Anderson Valley wineries. My notes are only fair - 'she who must be
> > obeyed' wasn;t impressed, I liked it but din't find the fruit character
> > too well developed. Sounds like a little bottle aging has served it
> > well.
>
> > But a question - "petrol"? ugh ... Wouldn't that be a rejection notice
> > for any wine?
>
> Petrol as used in GB is the same as gasoline as used in the US. This
> term has long been used to describe a clean aromatic character
> developed by some Riesling, often after many years of age. Crude oil
> comes in very different compositions, some having a rather clean
> aromatic smell and some being very foul in smell due to H2S and a
> variety of other, often sulfur, compounds. The portion of petroleum
> called gasoline after it is purified by, cracking, fractional
> distillation,etc. has other things added to improve octane rating, to
> make it burn cleaner, etc. Some of these additives can influence the
> smell. A very highly purified distillate of petroleum in the gasoline
> range would have a rather aromatic, clean smell. Those who first
> started using petrol to describe the smell developed by old Riesling,
> must have had a product made from relatively clean smelling crude oil
> in mind. I believe a product called "white gasoline" without additives
> was sold at one time for cleaning metal, etc. I have not smelled a
> gasoline in the US that smells clean in a very long time.
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 2007-10-15 20:32:51 -0700, Mark Lipton > said:
>
> > > Tonight with a dinner of barbeque ribs and leftover paella, I opened:
>
> > > 2003 Navarro Vineyards Dry Mendocino Riesling
> > > nose: white peaches, petrol
> > > palate: medium-light body, crisp, white peaches, lime, a hint of petrol
>
> > > With the BBQ, this wine really shone, with the lime fruit coming to the
> > > fore. *This wine is bone dry and comparable to many of the better '04
> > > QbA Rieslings that I've had over the past 2-3 years, such as those by
> > > Selbach-Oster, Willi Schäfer and Dr. Loosen. *Unlike its antipodean
> > > counterparts, this wine had a distinct sense of stonefruit in addition
> > > to the citrus character. Thoroughly enjoyable and worth the $17 I paid
> > > for it.
>
> > > Mark Lipton- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I think that the "petrol" is more of a diesel oil smell than
gasoline.

On Oct 16, 11:44 am, Bi!! > wrote:
> On Oct 16, 11:52?am, cwdjrxyz > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 16, 10:13 am, Ric > wrote:
>
> > > I recall tasting this wine a couple years back when I visited the
> > > Anderson Valley wineries. My notes are only fair - 'she who must be
> > > obeyed' wasn;t impressed, I liked it but din't find the fruit character
> > > too well developed. Sounds like a little bottle aging has served it
> > > well.
>
> > > But a question - "petrol"? ugh ... Wouldn't that be a rejection notice
> > > for any wine?
>
> > Petrol as used in GB is the same as gasoline as used in the US. This
> > term has long been used to describe a clean aromatic character
> > developed by some Riesling, often after many years of age. Crude oil
> > comes in very different compositions, some having a rather clean
> > aromatic smell and some being very foul in smell due to H2S and a
> > variety of other, often sulfur, compounds. The portion of petroleum
> > called gasoline after it is purified by, cracking, fractional
> > distillation,etc. has other things added to improve octane rating, to
> > make it burn cleaner, etc. Some of these additives can influence the
> > smell. A very highly purified distillate of petroleum in the gasoline
> > range would have a rather aromatic, clean smell. Those who first
> > started using petrol to describe the smell developed by old Riesling,
> > must have had a product made from relatively clean smelling crude oil
> > in mind. I believe a product called "white gasoline" without additives
> > was sold at one time for cleaning metal, etc. I have not smelled a
> > gasoline in the US that smells clean in a very long time.
>
> > > On 2007-10-15 20:32:51 -0700, Mark Lipton > said:
>
> > > > Tonight with a dinner of barbeque ribs and leftover paella, I opened:
>
> > > > 2003 Navarro Vineyards Dry Mendocino Riesling
> > > > nose: white peaches, petrol
> > > > palate: medium-light body, crisp, white peaches, lime, a hint of petrol
>
> > > > With the BBQ, this wine really shone, with the lime fruit coming to the
> > > > fore. ?This wine is bone dry and comparable to many of the better '04
> > > > QbA Rieslings that I've had over the past 2-3 years, such as those by
> > > > Selbach-Oster, Willi Sch?fer and Dr. Loosen. ?Unlike its antipodean
> > > > counterparts, this wine had a distinct sense of stonefruit in addition
> > > > to the citrus character. Thoroughly enjoyable and worth the $17 I paid
> > > > for it.
>
> > > > Mark Lipton- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I think that the "petrol" is more of a diesel oil smell than
> gasoline.

If you are speaking of current US diesel oil and gasoline, I agree
that diesel oil is more likely to be have the smell the early UK users
of the term petrol in relation to Riesling had in mind. The reason is
that it is a higher boiling point distillate of crude oil and many of
the stinky impurities are removed at a lower boiling point. Also
diesel oil is not so loaded with additives as gasoline. To be more
precise, I think what the early users of petrol in relation to
Riesling had in mind likely is the smell of pure, aliphatic
hydrocarbons of moderate boiling point. I have smelled series of very
high purity aliphatic hydrocarbons such as hexane, octane, etc on up
to very high boiling point ones. Such high purity ones are difficult
to prepare, very expensive, and are used in research.They all had a
clean smell. However the lowest boiling point ones had more sharpness,
while the higher boiling point ones were more subtle.

Of course descriptions of wine smells in terms of something else is
only an approximation, often quite crude, Riesling smells like
Riesling just as a rose smells like a rose. If you had never smelled a
rose and someone described the smell in terms of other flowers you
have smelled, the description will be somewhat inaccurate at best.
Then when you smell a rose for the first time, you likely will find
that the description you were given is just a crude approximation of
the smell of a rose. Often the "petrol" smell of Riesling is very
apparent in older top Rheingau Rieslings of auslese grade. I have
found several from 1976 that show much "petrol" character, but it is
clean, not excessive, and is just one component of intense tropical
fruit smells.

Bi!! wrote:

> I think that the "petrol" is more of a diesel oil smell than
> gasoline.

Sometimes I'd describe "petrol" in Riesling as veering towards
vinyl, too.

Dana

Cat's pee I've long adored as a descriptor, and with tar and menthol
(although I'm still a little doubtful as to the appropriateness of
menthol as a good descriptor). But petrol? ugh ... obviously I am not
familiar with popular descriptors for Riesling - but then again, I'm
not a big fan of drinking petrol!




On 2007-10-16 08:41:25 -0700, Joseph Coulter > said:

> Ric > wrote in news:2007101608130275249-
> ric@donotreplycom:
>
>
>>
>> But a question - "petrol"? ugh ... Wouldn't that be a rejection notice
>> for any wine?
>
> Surprisingly, NO! There are a few wine terms that would put anyone off it
> they weren't into the lingo. "Cat's Pee" for Sauvignon Blanc esp in
> Sancerre is revered. Petrol for Rieslings is a hint on the nose that
> actually enchances in the taste. Tar and Menthol might sound odd as well,
> but a bit of both on the finish of say a Cab. could be a good thing.
>
> Now, cardboard or wet dog, that is the off putting aroma of TCA, cork
> taint, and pretty well universally detested. (I am waiting for that one
> contrary individual to exclaim the wonders of TCA infected wine.)

In article <2007101611501716807-ric@donotreplycom>,
Ric > wrote:

> Cat's pee I've long adored as a descriptor, and with tar and menthol
> (although I'm still a little doubtful as to the appropriateness of
> menthol as a good descriptor). But petrol? ugh ... obviously I am not
> familiar with popular descriptors for Riesling - but then again, I'm
> not a big fan of drinking petrol!
>
>
>
>
> On 2007-10-16 08:41:25 -0700, Joseph Coulter > said:
>
> > Ric > wrote in news:2007101608130275249-
> > ric@donotreplycom:
> >
> >
> >>
> >> But a question - "petrol"? ugh ... Wouldn't that be a rejection notice
> >> for any wine?
> >
> > Surprisingly, NO! There are a few wine terms that would put anyone off it
> > they weren't into the lingo. "Cat's Pee" for Sauvignon Blanc esp in
> > Sancerre is revered. Petrol for Rieslings is a hint on the nose that
> > actually enchances in the taste. Tar and Menthol might sound odd as well,
> > but a bit of both on the finish of say a Cab. could be a good thing.
> >
> > Now, cardboard or wet dog, that is the off putting aroma of TCA, cork
> > taint, and pretty well universally detested. (I am waiting for that one
> > contrary individual to exclaim the wonders of TCA infected wine.)

Isn't that the descriptor for New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc?

"Ric" > skrev i melding
news:2007101611501716807-ric@donotreplycom...
> Cat's pee I've long adored as a descriptor, and with tar and menthol
> (although I'm still a little doubtful as to the appropriateness of menthol
> as a good descriptor). But petrol? ugh ... obviously I am not familiar
> with popular descriptors for Riesling - but then again, I'm not a big fan
> of drinking petrol!
>
Of course, but if you think of ripe mango you may perhaps agree that there's
a vague hint of petrol there too. And mango is a descriptor for some German
rieslings..
Anders

Anders Tørneskog wrote:

> Of course, but if you think of ripe mango you may perhaps agree that there's
> a vague hint of petrol there too. And mango is a descriptor for some German
> rieslings..

That's a very interesting observation, Anders, and I will keep it in
mind when I next open a Riesling. One problem, however, is finding a
truly ripe mango around he most of the ones I see are from Mexico and
hard as rocks in the store (I've tried to convince my Indian students
to smuggle some back, but they've all refused for obvious reasons). My
recollection, though, is that _to me_ they have a certain "terpene"
character that reminds me of pine sap. YMMV, of course.

Mark Lipton
--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.hostexcellence.com

Now that is an interesting descriptor - and one I'm familiar with. I'm
going to have to go get a couple Rieslings and see if I can discern
ripe mango - or anything akin to petrol.

Thx Anders ...

On 2007-10-19 05:28:38 -0700, "Anders Tørneskog"
> said:

>
> "Ric" > skrev i melding
> news:2007101611501716807-ric@donotreplycom...
>> Cat's pee I've long adored as a descriptor, and with tar and menthol
>> (although I'm still a little doubtful as to the appropriateness of menthol
>> as a good descriptor). But petrol? ugh ... obviously I am not familiar
>> with popular descriptors for Riesling - but then again, I'm not a big fan
>> of drinking petrol!
>>
> Of course, but if you think of ripe mango you may perhaps agree that there's
> a vague hint of petrol there too. And mango is a descriptor for some German
> rieslings..
> Anders

On Oct 19, 9:42 am, Mark Lipton > wrote:
> Anders Tørneskog wrote:
> > Of course, but if you think of ripe mango you may perhaps agree that there's
> > a vague hint of petrol there too. And mango is a descriptor for some German
> > rieslings..
>
> That's a very interesting observation, Anders, and I will keep it in
> mind when I next open a Riesling. One problem, however, is finding a
> truly ripe mango around he most of the ones I see are from Mexico and
> hard as rocks in the store (I've tried to convince my Indian students
> to smuggle some back, but they've all refused for obvious reasons). My
> recollection, though, is that _to me_ they have a certain "terpene"
> character that reminds me of pine sap. YMMV, of course.
>
> Mark Lipton

Some of the very ripe 1956 German auslesen, especially some top
Rheingaus such as Rauenthaler Baiken, are loaded with tropical fruit
that brings to mind mango and papaya rather then the usual peach and
apricot fruit. Along with this fruit is a terpene like character that
I also associate with Mango. Many of the Mangos in the store here also
are from Mexico and are hard "cooking" Mangos. Many years ago, I could
find the small, soft, ripe "eating" Mangos. Your best bet today is
frozen mango from some of the central America countries. Some of these
tropical foods are now shipped all over the US by companies that cater
to people who came from those countries and the general public. One
example is http://www.ecuadorianfooddelivery.com . I have not ordered
from them, just considered it so far. Thus I can not recommend this
source from experience - you are on your own if you choose to order
from them.

On Oct 19, 12:17 pm, cwdjrxyz > wrote:
> On Oct 19, 9:42 am, Mark Lipton > wrote:
>
> > Anders Tørneskog wrote:
> > > Of course, but if you think of ripe mango you may perhaps agree that there's
> > > a vague hint of petrol there too. And mango is a descriptor for some German
> > > rieslings..
>
> > That's a very interesting observation, Anders, and I will keep it in
> > mind when I next open a Riesling. One problem, however, is finding a
> > truly ripe mango around he most of the ones I see are from Mexico and
> > hard as rocks in the store (I've tried to convince my Indian students
> > to smuggle some back, but they've all refused for obvious reasons). My
> > recollection, though, is that _to me_ they have a certain "terpene"
> > character that reminds me of pine sap. YMMV, of course.
>
> > Mark Lipton
>
> Some of the very ripe 1956 German auslesen, especially some top
> Rheingaus such as Rauenthaler Baiken, are loaded with tropical fruit
> that brings to mind mango and papaya rather then the usual peach and
> apricot fruit. Along with this fruit is a terpene like character that
> I also associate with Mango. Many of the Mangos in the store here also
> are from Mexico and are hard "cooking" Mangos. Many years ago, I could
> find the small, soft, ripe "eating" Mangos. Your best bet today is
> frozen mango from some of the central America countries. Some of these
> tropical foods are now shipped all over the US by companies that cater
> to people who came from those countries and the general public. One
> example ishttp://www.ecuadorianfooddelivery.com. I have not ordered
> from them, just considered it so far. Thus I can not recommend this
> source from experience - you are on your own if you choose to order
> from them.

The first sentence should read:

Some of the very ripe 1976 German auslesen, especially some top
Rheingaus such as Rauenthaler Baiken, are loaded with tropical fruit
that brings to mind mango and papaya rather then the usual peach and
apricot fruit.

This is one typo that matters. The best I recall, most 1956 German
wines were not very nice and did not have tropical fruit. In any
event, it would be difficult to find one now that is not long past the
peak.

"Ric" > skrev i melding
news:2007101908024916807-ric@donotreplycom...
> Now that is an interesting descriptor - and one I'm familiar with. I'm
> going to have to go get a couple Rieslings and see if I can discern ripe
> mango - or anything akin to petrol.
>
> Thx Anders ...
>
OK, but remember, you'll probably have to find an old bottle from a ripe
vintage :-) FWIW, I found a tasting note: Westhofener Aulerde Riesling
Spätlese 1994
Ripe, rich aromas with a clear hint of petrol and some smoke. Lots of ripe
mangos and other yellow fruits.

and another:
Domaine Schoffit Riesling Harth Tradition 2004
classic integration of Petrol & apricot-pineapple-mango flavor;

TY Anders - very generous of you to follow up with some suggestions and
your TN's



On 2007-10-20 02:53:58 -0700, "Anders Tørneskog"
> said:

>
> "Ric" > skrev i melding
> news:2007101908024916807-ric@donotreplycom...
>> Now that is an interesting descriptor - and one I'm familiar with. I'm
>> going to have to go get a couple Rieslings and see if I can discern ripe
>> mango - or anything akin to petrol.
>>
>> Thx Anders ...
>>
> OK, but remember, you'll probably have to find an old bottle from a ripe
> vintage :-) FWIW, I found a tasting note: Westhofener Aulerde Riesling
> Spätlese 1994
> Ripe, rich aromas with a clear hint of petrol and some smoke. Lots of ripe
> mangos and other yellow fruits.
>
> and another:
> Domaine Schoffit Riesling Harth Tradition 2004
> classic integration of Petrol & apricot-pineapple-mango flavor;