"Larry Caldwell" > wrote in message k.net...
> In article >, (pearl)
> says...
>
> > ..there are still some lively academic voices suspecting a role for
> > aluminum in Alzheimer's and other neurodegenerative disease.
>
> Possibly, but there is solid evidence that dietary aluminum has no
> effect. Many thousands of people have used Gaviscon and other AlOH
> based antacids for many decades, and they show no increased incidence of
> Alzheimer's.

'Older adults- Aluminum-containing antacids should not be used
by elderly persons with bone problems or with Alzheimer's
disease. The aluminum may cause their condition to get worse.'
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...di/202047.html

hmmm...

****witted science-illiterate Lesley wrote:

> "Larry Caldwell" > wrote in message k.net...
>
>>In article >, (pearl)
>>says...
>>
>>
>>>..there are still some lively academic voices suspecting a role for
>>>aluminum in Alzheimer's and other neurodegenerative disease.
>>
>>Possibly, but there is solid evidence that dietary aluminum has no
>>effect. Many thousands of people have used Gaviscon and other AlOH
>>based antacids for many decades, and they show no increased incidence of
>>Alzheimer's.
>
>
> 'Older adults- Aluminum-containing antacids should not be used
> by elderly persons with bone problems or with Alzheimer's
> disease. The aluminum may cause their condition to get worse.'
> http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...di/202047.html

Aluminum is one of the most abundant elements found in
the environment. Therefore, human exposure to this
metal is common and unavoidable. However, intake is
relatively low because this element is highly insoluble
in many of its naturally occurring forms. The
significance of environmental contact with aluminum is
further diminished by the fact that less than 1% of
that taken into the body orally is absorbed from the
gastrointestinal tract.

The average human intake is estimated to be between 30
and 50 mg per day. This intake comes primarily from
foods, drinking water, and pharmaceuticals. Based on
the maximum levels reported in drinking water, less
than 1/4 of the total intake comes from water. Some
common food additives contain aluminum. Due to certain
additives, processed cheese and cornbread are two major
contributors to high aluminum exposures in the American
diet. With regard to pharmaceuticals, some common
over-the-counter medications such as antacids and
buffered aspirin contain aluminum to increase the daily
intake significantly.

Over the last few years, there has been concern about
the exposures resulting from leaching of aluminum from
cookware and beverage cans. However, as a general rule,
this contributes a relatively small amount to the total
daily intake. Aluminum beverage cans are usually coated
with a polymer to minimize such leaching. Leaching from
aluminum cookware becomes potentially significant only
when cooking highly basic or acidic foods. For example,
in one study, tomato sauce cooked in aluminum pans was
found to accumulate 3-6 mg aluminum per 100 g serving.

Certain aluminum compounds have been found to be an
important component of the neurological damage
characteristics of Alzheimer's Disease (AD). Much
research over the last decade has focused on the role
of aluminum in the development of this disease. At this
point, its role is still not clearly defined. Since AD
is a chronic disease which may take a long time to
develop, long-term exposure is the most important
measure of intake. Long-term exposure is easiest to
estimate for drinking water exposures. Epidemiological
studies attempting to link AD with exposures in
drinking water have been inconclusive and
contradictory. Thus, the significance of increased
aluminum intake with regard to onset of AD has not been
determined.

http://www.niehs.nih.gov/external/faq/aluminum.htm

"Rudy Canoza" > wrote in message nk.net...

pearl wrote;
>
> > "Larry Caldwell" > wrote in message k.net...
> >
> >>In article >, (pearl)
> >>says...
> >>
> >>
> >>>..there are still some lively academic voices suspecting a role for
> >>>aluminum in Alzheimer's and other neurodegenerative disease.
> >>
> >>Possibly, but there is solid evidence that dietary aluminum has no
> >>effect. Many thousands of people have used Gaviscon and other AlOH
> >>based antacids for many decades, and they show no increased incidence of
> >>Alzheimer's.
> >
> >
> > 'Older adults- Aluminum-containing antacids should not be used
> > by elderly persons with bone problems or with Alzheimer's
> > disease. The aluminum may cause their condition to get worse.'
> > http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...di/202047.html
>
> Aluminum is one of the most abundant elements found in
> the environment. Therefore, human exposure to this
> metal is common and unavoidable. However, intake is
> relatively low because this element is highly insoluble
> in many of its naturally occurring forms. The
> significance of environmental contact with aluminum is
> further diminished by the fact that less than 1% of
> that taken into the body orally is absorbed from the
> gastrointestinal tract.
>
> The average human intake is estimated to be between 30
> and 50 mg per day. This intake comes primarily from
> foods, drinking water, and pharmaceuticals. Based on
> the maximum levels reported in drinking water, less
> than 1/4 of the total intake comes from water. Some
> common food additives contain aluminum. Due to certain
> additives, processed cheese and cornbread are two major
> contributors to high aluminum exposures in the American
> diet. With regard to pharmaceuticals, some common
> over-the-counter medications such as *antacids* and
> buffered aspirin contain aluminum to *increase the daily
> intake significantly*.
>
> Over the last few years, there has been concern about
> the exposures resulting from leaching of aluminum from
> cookware and beverage cans. However, as a general rule,
> this contributes a relatively small amount to the total
> daily intake. Aluminum beverage cans are usually coated
> with a polymer to minimize such leaching. Leaching from
> aluminum cookware becomes potentially significant only
> when cooking highly basic or acidic foods. For example,
> in one study, tomato sauce cooked in aluminum pans was
> found to accumulate 3-6 mg aluminum per 100 g serving.
>
> Certain aluminum compounds have been found to be an
> important component of the neurological damage
> characteristics of Alzheimer's Disease (AD). Much
> research over the last decade has focused on the role
> of aluminum in the development of this disease. At this
> point, its role is still not clearly defined. Since AD
> is a chronic disease which may take a long time to
> develop, long-term exposure is the most important
> measure of intake. Long-term exposure is easiest to
> estimate for drinking water exposures. Epidemiological
> studies attempting to link AD with exposures in
> drinking water have been inconclusive and
> contradictory. Thus, the significance of increased
> aluminum intake with regard to onset of AD has not been
> determined.
>
> http://www.niehs.nih.gov/external/faq/aluminum.htm

'In patients having Alzheimer's disease the brain is somewhat
shrunken and, on postmortum examination, a definite loss of
nervous tissue is noted. Examination of the brain tissues under
a microscope reveals small bundles of material called senile
plaques, scattered throughout the tissues. The more plaques
that are present, the worse is the mental condition of the patient.
Chemical analysis reveals the presence of the metal aluminum
at the core of each plaque and within many of the cells found
in the plaques. Evidence is accumulating to indicate that
aluminum may be involved in the formation of the plaques, and
it is therefore a prime suspect as the initial cause of the disease.

Five population studies now link Alzheimer's disease to aluminum
in drinking water. As early as 1885, aluminum was shown to be
toxic to the nervous tissues of animals. Aluminum can also produce
a degeneration of the nervous tissues in cats and rabbits that
resembles in some ways that seen in the brains of human patients
with Alzheimer's disease. Patients with diseased kidneys accumulate
large amounts of aluminum in their bodies from medications and
from kidney-machine solutions that have been used until recently.
This accumulation results in a severe mental deterioration.

Aluminum is the third most common element in the earth's crust.
"Normal" dietary intake of aluminum is about 3 to 5 mg per day,
of which only a very small amount is absorbed by the body's tissues.
The aluminum to which we are exposed comes from many sources,
and most of these are under our control. Dust, water, and even
unprocessed foods contain aluminum that may be difficult to avoid.
But aluminum in cosmetics, many medicines, food additives (for
example, some brands of baking powders, and highly absorbable
aluminum maltol used in instant chocolate mixes), cans, kitchenware,
and utensils can be easily avoided. A very popular antacid,
Amphojel, consists of aluminum hydroxide.

Most of this daily intake is eliminated by healthy kidneys. However,
some individuals seem to absorb aluminum more readily, or are less
able to eliminate it; these people, who cannot be identified before
symptoms begin, are most likely to suffer from Alzheimer's disease.
Certainly not every one of the multitudes of us who have been fed
for a lifetime on foods cooked in aluminum pots and pans will end
our days in this world as severely mentally deficient patients.
Aluminum is only one strongly suspected culprit. Scientists believe
that other factors, yet to be identified, are involved in the interactions
that allow the body to suffer this form of degeneration.
.....
http://www.drmcdougall.com/science/alzheimers.html

"pearl" > wrote in message news:ctk8h3
>
> Five population studies now link Alzheimer's disease to aluminum
> in drinking water. As early as 1885, aluminum was shown to be
> toxic to the nervous tissues of animals. Aluminum can also produce
> a degeneration of the nervous tissues in cats and rabbits that
> resembles in some ways that seen in the brains of human patients
> with Alzheimer's disease. Patients with diseased kidneys accumulate
> large amounts of aluminum in their bodies from medications and
> from kidney-machine solutions that have been used until recently.
> This accumulation results in a severe mental deterioration.
>

which leaves the reader to ask why you were so keen to blame an increase in
Alzheimer's on BSE. But then Lotus/Pearl always favoured a good food scare
that implicated meat,

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster" > wrote in message ...
>
> "pearl" > wrote in message news:ctk8h3
> >
> > Five population studies now link Alzheimer's disease to aluminum
> > in drinking water. As early as 1885, aluminum was shown to be
> > toxic to the nervous tissues of animals. Aluminum can also produce
> > a degeneration of the nervous tissues in cats and rabbits that
> > resembles in some ways that seen in the brains of human patients
> > with Alzheimer's disease. Patients with diseased kidneys accumulate
> > large amounts of aluminum in their bodies from medications and
> > from kidney-machine solutions that have been used until recently.
> > This accumulation results in a severe mental deterioration.
>
> which leaves the reader to ask why

jim snipped this;

'Aluminum is only one strongly suspected culprit. Scientists believe
that other factors, yet to be identified, are involved in the interactions
that allow the body to suffer this form of degeneration.
.....
http://www.drmcdougall.com/science/alzheimers.html

> you were so keen to blame an increase in
> Alzheimer's on BSE. But then Lotus/Pearl always favoured a good food scare
> that implicated meat,

' People who develop CJD from eating mad-cow-contaminated beef
have been thought to develop a specific form of the disorder called
variant CJD. But new research (see reference at the end of part [1] above)
indicates the mad cow pathogen can cause both sporadic CJD and the
variant form. "Now people are beginning to realize that because something
looks like sporadic CJD they can't necessarily conclude that it's not linked
to (mad cow disease)," said Laura Manuelidis, Section Chief of Surgery in
the Neuropathology Department at Yale University, who conducted a
1989 study that found 13 percent of Alzheimer's patients actually had CJD.
Several studies, including the one by Manuelidis, have found autopsies
reveal 3-13 percent of patients diagnosed with Alzheimer's or dementia
actually suffered from CJD. Those numbers might sound low, but there
are 4 million Alzheimer's cases and hundreds of thousands of dementia
cases in the United States. A small percentage of those cases could add
up to 120 000 or more CJD victims going undetected and not included
in official statistics.

At the same time autopsies have been declining, the number of deaths
attributed to Alzheimer's has increased more than 50-fold since 1979,
going from 857 deaths then to nearly 50 000 in 2000. Though it is
unlikely that the dramatic increase in Alzheimer's is due entirely to
misdiagnosed CJD cases, it "could explain some of the increase we've
seen," Manuelidis said.
....'
http://foodhaccp.com/msgboard.mv?par...msgnum=1012907

In article >, (pearl)
says...

> 'Aluminum is only one strongly suspected culprit. Scientists believe
> that other factors, yet to be identified, are involved in the interactions
> that allow the body to suffer this form of degeneration.

You seem determined to ignore the fact that a daily dose of ibuprofin is
a better way to avoid Alzheimer's than any dietary changes. Why don't
you take your Advil and relax?

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

"Larry Caldwell" > wrote in message k.net...
> In article >, (pearl)
> says...
>
> > 'Aluminum is only one strongly suspected culprit. Scientists believe
> > that other factors, yet to be identified, are involved in the interactions
> > that allow the body to suffer this form of degeneration.
>
> You seem determined to ignore the fact that a daily dose of ibuprofin is
> a better way to avoid Alzheimer's than any dietary changes.

'..Delayed onset of dementia in vegetarians was detectable in both
substudies. In the unmatched substudy only one person who had
been vegetarian for 30 years developed probable dementia before
the age of 75, whereas nine meat-eaters did. A similar trend was
observed in the matched substudy.
The hypothesis that animal-product consumption may be linked
to senile dementia has previously been proposed by Alzheimer's
researchers. The findings from this preliminary study support their
views and indicates further research is warranted.

Giem, P. et al (1993) The incidence of dementia and intake of
animal products: preliminary findings from the Adventist Health
Study. Neuroepidemiology v. 11 p.28-36
http://www.soybean.com/demen.htm

> Why don't you take your Advil and relax?

'SIDE EFFECTS: The most common side effects from ibuprofen
are rash, ringing in the ears, headaches, dizziness, drowsiness,
abdominal pain, nausea, diarrhea, constipation and heartburn.
Ibuprofen may cause ulceration of the stomach or intestine, and the
ulcers may bleed. Sometimes, ulceration and bleeding can occur
without abdominal pain, and black tarry stools, weakness, and
dizziness upon standing (orthostatic hypotension) may be the only
signs of a problem. NSAIDs reduce the flow of blood to the
kidneys and impair function of the kidneys. The impairment is
most likely to occur in patients with preexisting impairment of
kidney function or congestive heart failure, and use of NSAIDs
in these patients should be done cautiously. People who are
allergic to other NSAIDs, including aspirin, should not use
ibuprofen. Individuals with asthma are more likely to experience
allergic reactions to ibuprofen and other NSAIDs. '
http://www.medicinenet.com/ibuprofen/article.htm

Must rush out and get some!

"pearl" > wrote in message
...
> "Jim Webster" > wrote in message
...

> At the same time autopsies have been declining, the number of deaths
> attributed to Alzheimer's has increased more than 50-fold since 1979,
> going from 857 deaths then to nearly 50 000 in 2000. Though it is
> unlikely that the dramatic increase in Alzheimer's is due entirely to
> misdiagnosed CJD cases, it "could explain some of the increase we've
> seen," Manuelidis said.
> ...'
> http://foodhaccp.com/msgboard.mv?par...msgnum=1012907
>
Except these figures are from the USA.
We know that the USA has in no way had a BSE outbreak in any way, shape or
form like the UK one.
In the UK where there was BSE, where are the figures for a 50 fold increase
in Alzheimers since 1979?

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster" > wrote in message ...
>
> "pearl" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Jim Webster" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > At the same time autopsies have been declining, the number of deaths
> > attributed to Alzheimer's has increased more than 50-fold since 1979,
> > going from 857 deaths then to nearly 50 000 in 2000. Though it is
> > unlikely that the dramatic increase in Alzheimer's is due entirely to
> > misdiagnosed CJD cases, it "could explain some of the increase we've
> > seen," Manuelidis said.
> > ...'
> > http://foodhaccp.com/msgboard.mv?par...msgnum=1012907
> >
> Except these figures are from the USA.
> We know that the USA has in no way had a BSE outbreak in any way, shape or
> form like the UK one.

'Downers' are highly suspect. The U.S also has endemic Scrapie.

> In the UK where there was BSE, where are the figures for a 50 fold increase
> in Alzheimers since 1979?

Deaths late 1970s - about 3,000, late 1990s - ~10,000.

Over a three-fold increase.

The time-line in the UK may well be different though.

'Fred Cohen, professor of pharmacology at UCSF, said this
was strong evidence that cattle got BSE because of changes
in the way sheep carcases were rendered into animal feed.

These changes (in 1981) involved cheaper solvents and lower
temperatures - which Cohen believes still killed scrapie prions
- but had no effect on the tougher BSE prions. In their latest
work, said Cohen, he, Prusiner and Scott were replicating
the changes in the rendering process in the laboratory - and
injecting the resulting material into mice.

Cohen said that early results, so far unpublished, suggested
that the theory was correct. Material subjected to the earlier,
tougher regime, seemed not to produce disease.

"When scrapie-infected sheep were slaughtered the rendering
process destroyed the scrapie prions but left behind the tougher
BSE prions - to which cattle were vulnerable," he said. Such
theories have been advanced before. Research by Moira Bruce
at the Neuropathogenesis Unit in Edinburgh has confirmed that
sheep can produce a range of prion particles but finding the
one that causes BSE has eluded researchers until now.

http://www.mad-cow.org/00/jul00_dont_eat_sheep.html

Which solvents or methods were used in the U.S?

"pearl" > wrote in message
...
> "Jim Webster" > wrote in message
...
> >
> > "pearl" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Jim Webster" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > > At the same time autopsies have been declining, the number of deaths
> > > attributed to Alzheimer's has increased more than 50-fold since 1979,
> > > going from 857 deaths then to nearly 50 000 in 2000. Though it is
> > > unlikely that the dramatic increase in Alzheimer's is due entirely to
> > > misdiagnosed CJD cases, it "could explain some of the increase we've
> > > seen," Manuelidis said.
> > > ...'
> > > http://foodhaccp.com/msgboard.mv?par...msgnum=1012907
> > >
> > Except these figures are from the USA.
> > We know that the USA has in no way had a BSE outbreak in any way, shape
or
> > form like the UK one.
>
> 'Downers' are highly suspect.

Rubbish. To have BSE in the same way the UK did, the US would have to have
literally millions of downers. They would have been picked up as an economic
effect

> The U.S also has endemic Scrapie.

so what, so do many other countries that do not apparently have vast
increase in Alzheimer's

>
> > In the UK where there was BSE, where are the figures for a 50 fold
increase
> > in Alzheimers since 1979?
>
> Deaths late 1970s - about 3,000, late 1990s - ~10,000.

we have already been through that, the society itself says it is because of
increasing numbers of people in the age bracket, they see no need for an
outside cause
You are rehashing evidence shown to be irrelevent last week

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster" > wrote in message ...
>
> "pearl" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Jim Webster" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >
> > > "pearl" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > "Jim Webster" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > > > At the same time autopsies have been declining, the number of deaths
> > > > attributed to Alzheimer's has increased more than 50-fold since 1979,
> > > > going from 857 deaths then to nearly 50 000 in 2000. Though it is
> > > > unlikely that the dramatic increase in Alzheimer's is due entirely to
> > > > misdiagnosed CJD cases, it "could explain some of the increase we've
> > > > seen," Manuelidis said.
> > > > ...'
> > > > http://foodhaccp.com/msgboard.mv?par...msgnum=1012907
> > > >
> > > Except these figures are from the USA.
> > > We know that the USA has in no way had a BSE outbreak in any way, shape
> or
> > > form like the UK one.
> >
> > 'Downers' are highly suspect.
>
> Rubbish.

'It is reassuring that outbreaks of TSEs on mink farms have been rare,
and that none have been documented in the last ten years. However,
one unsettling thing about Dr. Marsh's work on TSE is that the two
calves infected with diseased mink brain did not act aggressively or
exhibit any of the other behavioral symptoms typical of "mad cow"
disease; rather, they just became a little stiff and sluggish and
ultimately collapsed, much as a "downer" cow would. Furthermore,
histopathological examination of the calves brain did not turn up
spongy holes in the places of the brain where "mad cow" disease
usually attacks. In fact, the brain lesions were variable and did not
resemble those seen in British cattle with "mad cow" disease. However,
these cattle died of a spongiform encephalopathy (Marsh et al., 1991).
These data suggest that TSEs could occur in cattle without being
noticed or properly identified as such.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1527/fdabse.html

The TSE in the mink being traced to the mink's feed which
consisted, in large part, of rendered 'downers'.

> To have BSE in the same way the UK did, the US would have to have
> literally millions of downers. They would have been picked up as an economic
> effect

'According to USDA, “Nobody knows the exact number [of downed
cattle]; however, an estimate of 195,000 per year was obtained from a
survey conducted by American Association of Bovine Practitioners
(Hansen et. al., 1999) members.”

Other estimates of downed cattle have ranged from 1/10 of 1 percent
up to 1 percent of the U.S. cattle population. As there are approximately
36 million cattle slaughtered annually in the U.S., these estimates of
downers would range from 36,000 to 360,000.

There are currently no estimated numbers of downed pigs, sheep,
goats, or equine species.

How many downed animals are slaughtered for human food in the
United States each year?

While there is no clear accounting for the number of downed animals used
for food in the U.S., estimates have ranged from 100,000 to 200,000.

Reviews of USDA slaughterhouse records have found that over
70 percent of downed animals brought to USDA slaughterhouses
have been approved for use in the human food supply.
...'
http://www.nodowners.org/faqs.htm

> > The U.S also has endemic Scrapie.
>
> so what, so do many other countries that do not apparently have vast
> increase in Alzheimer's

Show us an example of what you claim.

> > > In the UK where there was BSE, where are the figures for a 50 fold increase
> > > in Alzheimers since 1979?
> >
> > Deaths late 1970s - about 3,000, late 1990s - ~10,000.
>
> we have already been through that, the society itself says it is because of
> increasing numbers of people in the age bracket, they see no need for an
> outside cause

Reassuring noises. In reality, there's all kinds of speculation as to why it is.

And again;

1993 to 1997.

Senile & pre-senile organic psychotic conditions
-England and Wales
Age-standardised death rates increased by 9% in women,
and by 12% in men.
-USA
Age-standardised death rates increased by 31% men and
by 53% in women.

Alzheimer’s disease
-England and Wales
Age-standardised death rates increased by 24% in men,
and by 45% in women.
-USA
Age-standardised death rates increased by 9% in men,
and by 28% in women. (1993 to 1995)

Other dementias and neurodegenerative disorders
-England and Wales
Age-standardised death rates increased by 17% in men,
and by 20% in women.
-USA
Age-standardised death rates increased by 35% in men,
and by 57% in women.

http://www.azmaj.org/PDF/HSQDem.pdf

Rates. Not the number of deaths.

> You are rehashing evidence shown to be irrelevent last week

Your inability to understand what "rates" means, is not my problem.

"pearl" > wrote in message
...

> > or
> > > > form like the UK one.
> > >
> > > 'Downers' are highly suspect.
> >
> > Rubbish.

> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1527/fdabse.html
>
> The TSE in the mink being traced to the mink's feed which
> consisted, in large part, of rendered 'downers'.

Exactly, as I said, rubbish
>
> > To have BSE in the same way the UK did, the US would have to have
> > literally millions of downers. They would have been picked up as an
economic
> > effect
>
> 'According to USDA, "Nobody knows the exact number [of downed
> cattle]; however, an estimate of 195,000 per year was obtained from a
> survey conducted by American Association of Bovine Practitioners
> (Hansen et. al., 1999) members."

So if 10% of these are BSE it is still a couple of orders of magnitude less
than the UK, and were diluted amongst a lot higher population


>
> Other estimates of downed cattle have ranged from 1/10 of 1 percent
> up to 1 percent of the U.S. cattle population. As there are approximately
> 36 million cattle slaughtered annually in the U.S., these estimates of
> downers would range from 36,000 to 360,000.

See above

>
> There are currently no estimated numbers of downed pigs, sheep,
> goats, or equine species.
>
> How many downed animals are slaughtered for human food in the
> United States each year?

Barely matters, you have seen the figures for the UK

Yet the UK hasn't had the Alzheimer's outbreak, in spite of frantic
speculation
>
> While there is no clear accounting for the number of downed animals used
> for food in the U.S., estimates have ranged from 100,000 to 200,000.
>
> Reviews of USDA slaughterhouse records have found that over
> 70 percent of downed animals brought to USDA slaughterhouses
> have been approved for use in the human food supply.
> ..'
> http://www.nodowners.org/faqs.htm
>
> > > The U.S also has endemic Scrapie.
> >
> > so what, so do many other countries that do not apparently have vast
> > increase in Alzheimer's
>
> Show us an example of what you claim.
>
> > > > In the UK where there was BSE, where are the figures for a 50 fold
increase
> > > > in Alzheimer's since 1979?
> > >
> > > Deaths late 1970s - about 3,000, late 1990s - ~10,000.
> >
> > we have already been through that, the society itself says it is because
of
> > increasing numbers of people in the age bracket, they see no need for an
> > outside cause
>
> Reassuring noises. In reality, there's all kinds of speculation as to why
it is.

Yes, speculation, by kooks with their own agendas

Jim Webster

pearl wrote:

Much cut.
>
> How many downed animals are slaughtered for human food in the
> United States each year?

None. Read this:

http://www.bseinfo.org/faq.aspx#Whydoesn'ttheUStestevery?

Look for the question about safeguards about 2/3 of the way down.

More cut.


Dean


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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In article >, (pearl)
says...
> > Why don't you take your Advil and relax?
>
> 'SIDE EFFECTS: The most common side effects from ibuprofen
> are rash, ringing in the ears, headaches, dizziness, drowsiness,
> abdominal pain, nausea, diarrhea, constipation and heartburn.

[...]

> Must rush out and get some!

It's entertaining that you avoid a known beneficial preventative, then
advocate vegetarianism, which has to be carefully managed to avoid
horrible side effects. Without fortified dietary supplements, you would
be suffering from some pretty severe dietary diseases.

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

"Jim Webster" > wrote in message ...
>
> "pearl" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > > or
> > > > > form like the UK one.
> > > >
> > > > 'Downers' are highly suspect.
> > >
> > > Rubbish.
<
> > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1527/fdabse.html
> >
> > The TSE in the mink being traced to the mink's feed which
> > consisted, in large part, of rendered 'downers'.
>
> Exactly, as I said, rubbish

Not rubbish at all, jim.

> > > To have BSE in the same way the UK did, the US would have to have
> > > literally millions of downers. They would have been picked up as an economic
> > > effect
> >
> > 'According to USDA, "Nobody knows the exact number [of downed
> > cattle]; however, an estimate of 195,000 per year was obtained from a
> > survey conducted by American Association of Bovine Practitioners
> > (Hansen et. al., 1999) members."
>
> So if 10% of these are BSE it is still a couple of orders of magnitude less
> than the UK, and were diluted amongst a lot higher population

Americans eat lots of hamburgers. One sick animal in the mix..

> > Other estimates of downed cattle have ranged from 1/10 of 1 percent
> > up to 1 percent of the U.S. cattle population. As there are approximately
> > 36 million cattle slaughtered annually in the U.S., these estimates of
> > downers would range from 36,000 to 360,000.
>
> See above
>
> >
> > There are currently no estimated numbers of downed pigs, sheep,
> > goats, or equine species.
> >
> > How many downed animals are slaughtered for human food in the
> > United States each year?
>
> Barely matters, you have seen the figures for the UK
>
> Yet the UK hasn't had the Alzheimer's outbreak, in spite of frantic
> speculation

A three-fold increase in rates is what?

> > While there is no clear accounting for the number of downed animals used
> > for food in the U.S., estimates have ranged from 100,000 to 200,000.
> >
> > Reviews of USDA slaughterhouse records have found that over
> > 70 percent of downed animals brought to USDA slaughterhouses
> > have been approved for use in the human food supply.
> > ..'
> > http://www.nodowners.org/faqs.htm
> >
> > > > The U.S also has endemic Scrapie.
> > >
> > > so what, so do many other countries that do not apparently have vast
> > > increase in Alzheimer's
> >
> > Show us an example of what you claim.

Jim?

> > > > > In the UK where there was BSE, where are the figures for a 50 fold increase
> > > > > in Alzheimer's since 1979?
> > > >
> > > > Deaths late 1970s - about 3,000, late 1990s - ~10,000.
> > >
> > > we have already been through that, the society itself says it is because of
> > > increasing numbers of people in the age bracket, they see no need for an
> > > outside cause
> >
> > Reassuring noises. In reality, there's all kinds of speculation as to why it is.
>
> Yes, speculation, by kooks with their own agendas

By the scientific community, livestock farmer jim.

"pearl" > wrote in message
...
> "Jim Webster" > wrote in message
...
> >
> > "pearl" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > > > or
> > > > > > form like the UK one.
> > > > >
> > > > > 'Downers' are highly suspect.
> > > >
> > > > Rubbish.
> <
> > > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1527/fdabse.html
> > >
> > > The TSE in the mink being traced to the mink's feed which
> > > consisted, in large part, of rendered 'downers'.
> >
> > Exactly, as I said, rubbish
>
> Not rubbish at all, jim.

sorry, I must have cast doubt on one of your religious beliefs
>
> > > > To have BSE in the same way the UK did, the US would have to have
> > > > literally millions of downers. They would have been picked up as an
economic
> > > > effect
> > >
> > > 'According to USDA, "Nobody knows the exact number [of downed
> > > cattle]; however, an estimate of 195,000 per year was obtained from a
> > > survey conducted by American Association of Bovine Practitioners
> > > (Hansen et. al., 1999) members."
> >
> > So if 10% of these are BSE it is still a couple of orders of magnitude
less
> > than the UK, and were diluted amongst a lot higher population
>
> Americans eat lots of hamburgers. One sick animal in the mix..

meat is meat is meat, the level of infection in US beef has to be many
orders of magnitude less than in UK beef

>
> > > Other estimates of downed cattle have ranged from 1/10 of 1 percent
> > > up to 1 percent of the U.S. cattle population. As there are
approximately
> > > 36 million cattle slaughtered annually in the U.S., these estimates of
> > > downers would range from 36,000 to 360,000.
> >
> > See above
> >
> > >
> > > There are currently no estimated numbers of downed pigs, sheep,
> > > goats, or equine species.
> > >
> > > How many downed animals are slaughtered for human food in the
> > > United States each year?
> >
> > Barely matters, you have seen the figures for the UK
> >
> > Yet the UK hasn't had the Alzheimer's outbreak, in spite of frantic
> > speculation
>
> A three-fold increase in rates is what?

As the web site you so kindly posted pointed out, in the UK it is explained
by the increasing numbers of elderly people

Jim Webster

"Dean Hoffman" > wrote in message ...
> pearl wrote:
>
> Much cut.
> >
> > How many downed animals are slaughtered for human food in the
> > United States each year?
>
> None. Read this:
>
> http://www.bseinfo.org/faq.aspx#Whydoesn'ttheUStestevery?
>
> Look for the question about safeguards about 2/3 of the way down.

In 2003. The horse is in Alabama by now.

There's enough misinformation is there to float a yacht, btw.

Didn't you know that cow's blood is still fed to calves?

"Larry Caldwell" > wrote in message k.net...
> In article >, (pearl)
> says...
> > > Why don't you take your Advil and relax?
> >
> > 'SIDE EFFECTS: The most common side effects from ibuprofen
> > are rash, ringing in the ears, headaches, dizziness, drowsiness,
> > abdominal pain, nausea, diarrhea, constipation and heartburn.
>
> [...]
>
> > Must rush out and get some!
>
> It's entertaining

... To watch you persist with such nonsense.

> that you avoid a known beneficial preventative,

A known toxic. See above.

> then advocate vegetarianism,

A known beneficial preventative.

> which has to be carefully managed to avoid
> horrible side effects.

It is easy, healthy, tasty and natural.

> Without fortified dietary supplements, you would
> be suffering from some pretty severe dietary diseases.

'Analyses of data from the China studies by his collaborators
and others, Campbell told the epidemiology symposium, is leading
to policy recommendations. He mentioned three:

* The greater the variety of plant-based foods in the diet, the greater
the benefit. Variety insures broader coverage of known and unknown
nutrient needs.

* Provided there is plant food variety, quality and quantity, a
healthful and nutritionally complete diet can be attained without
animal-based food.

* The closer the food is to its native state - with minimal heating,
salting and processing - the greater will be the benefit.

http://www.sdearthtimes.com/et1101/et1101s18.html

In article >, (pearl)
says...

> * Provided there is plant food variety, quality and quantity, a
> healthful and nutritionally complete diet can be attained without
> animal-based food.

Provided you artificially supplement your diet with essential nutrients
that are rare in plant sources. You can also depend on air freight and
refrigeration to provide you with a diet that would not be available
from local produce. Thoughtless vegetarians don't live long. Neither
do poor ones.

There was a substantial Seventh Day Adventist colony where I grew up.
They made quite a study of the vegetarian lifestyle. They died pretty
much like the rest of the community, of the same things. Of course,
they might have done better if they had done more boozing. Prohibition
does not lead to a long life.

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

"pearl" > wrote in message
...
> "Dean Hoffman" > wrote in message
...
> > pearl wrote:
> >
> > Much cut.
> > >
> > > How many downed animals are slaughtered for human food in the
> > > United States each year?
> >
> > None. Read this:
> >
> > http://www.bseinfo.org/faq.aspx#Whydoesn'ttheUStestevery?
> >
> > Look for the question about safeguards about 2/3 of the way down.
>
> In 2003. The horse is in Alabama by now.
>
> There's enough misinformation is there to float a yacht, btw.
>
> Didn't you know that cow's blood is still fed to calves?

and where do you get that from?

I know that pigs blood used to be included in a milk replacer in the UK but
that was back in the early 1980s

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster" > wrote in message ...
>
> "pearl" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Jim Webster" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >
> > > "pearl" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > form like the UK one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 'Downers' are highly suspect.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rubbish.
> > <
> > > > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1527/fdabse.html
> > > >
> > > > The TSE in the mink being traced to the mink's feed which
> > > > consisted, in large part, of rendered 'downers'.
> > >
> > > Exactly, as I said, rubbish
> >
> > Not rubbish at all, jim.
>
> sorry, I must have cast doubt on one of your religious beliefs

You are ignoring evidence, not belief.

'It is reassuring that outbreaks of TSEs on mink farms have been rare,
and that none have been documented in the last ten years. However,
one unsettling thing about Dr. Marsh's work on TSE is that the two
calves infected with diseased mink brain did not act aggressively or
exhibit any of the other behavioral symptoms typical of "mad cow"
disease; rather, they just became a little stiff and sluggish and
ultimately collapsed, much as a "downer" cow would. Furthermore,
histopathological examination of the calves brain did not turn up
spongy holes in the places of the brain where "mad cow" disease
usually attacks. In fact, the brain lesions were variable and did not
resemble those seen in British cattle with "mad cow" disease. However,
these cattle died of a spongiform encephalopathy (Marsh et al., 1991).
These data suggest that TSEs could occur in cattle without being
noticed or properly identified as such.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1527/fdabse.html

The TSE in the mink being traced to the mink's feed which
consisted, in large part, of rendered 'downers'.

Fact.

> > > > > To have BSE in the same way the UK did, the US would have to have
> > > > > literally millions of downers. They would have been picked up as an economic
> > > > > effect
> > > >
> > > > 'According to USDA, "Nobody knows the exact number [of downed
> > > > cattle]; however, an estimate of 195,000 per year was obtained from a
> > > > survey conducted by American Association of Bovine Practitioners
> > > > (Hansen et. al., 1999) members."
> > >
> > > So if 10% of these are BSE it is still a couple of orders of magnitude less
> > > than the UK, and were diluted amongst a lot higher population
> >
> > Americans eat lots of hamburgers. One sick animal in the mix..
>
> meat is meat is meat, the level of infection in US beef has to be many
> orders of magnitude less than in UK beef

Why? Remember that most animals are slaughtered before symptoms
become apparent.

> > > > Other estimates of downed cattle have ranged from 1/10 of 1 percent
> > > > up to 1 percent of the U.S. cattle population. As there are approximately
> > > > 36 million cattle slaughtered annually in the U.S., these estimates of
> > > > downers would range from 36,000 to 360,000.
> > >
> > > See above
> > >
> > > >
> > > > There are currently no estimated numbers of downed pigs, sheep,
> > > > goats, or equine species.
> > > >
> > > > How many downed animals are slaughtered for human food in the
> > > > United States each year?
> > >
> > > Barely matters, you have seen the figures for the UK
> > >
> > > Yet the UK hasn't had the Alzheimer's outbreak, in spite of frantic
> > > speculation
> >
> > A three-fold increase in rates is what?

(Sorry, that is deaths, not rates.)

> As the web site you so kindly posted pointed out, in the UK it is explained
> by the increasing numbers of elderly people

1993 to 1997.

Senile & pre-senile organic psychotic conditions
-England and Wales
Age-standardised death rates increased by 9% in women,
and by 12% in men.
-USA
Age-standardised death rates increased by 31% men and
by 53% in women.

Alzheimer’s disease
-England and Wales
Age-standardised death rates increased by 24% in men,
and by 45% in women.
-USA
Age-standardised death rates increased by 9% in men,
and by 28% in women. (1993 to 1995)

Other dementias and neurodegenerative disorders
-England and Wales
Age-standardised death rates increased by 17% in men,
and by 20% in women.
-USA
Age-standardised death rates increased by 35% in men,
and by 57% in women.

http://www.azmaj.org/PDF/HSQDem.pdf

Rates. Not the number of deaths.

You're just making yourself look very foolish, jim.

"Larry Caldwell" > wrote in message k.net...
> In article >, (pearl)
> says...
>
> > * Provided there is plant food variety, quality and quantity, a
> > healthful and nutritionally complete diet can be attained without
> > animal-based food.
>
> Provided you artificially supplement your diet with essential nutrients
> that are rare in plant sources.

Read it again.

> You can also depend on air freight and
> refrigeration to provide you with a diet that would not be available
> from local produce.

Which nutrients are missing from 'local' produce?

> Thoughtless vegetarians don't live long. Neither do poor ones.

Anyone eating a poor diet suffers, vegetarian or not.

> There was a substantial Seventh Day Adventist colony where I grew up.
> They made quite a study of the vegetarian lifestyle. They died pretty
> much like the rest of the community, of the same things.

'Epidemiological studies provide clear evidence that vegetarians have
a reduced general and cause-specific mortality (McMichael, 1992).

In an 11-year study of 1,900 vegetarians in Germany, Chang-Claude
(1992) found mortality from all causes was reduced by one-half
compared with the general population. This was mainly attributable
to reduced cardiovascular disease in both men and women. A longer
duration of vegetarianism was associated with a lower risk, pointing
to a real protective effect of the lifestyle (Chang-Claude, 1993).

A 12-year follow-up study of 6,115 British vegetarians and 5,015
meat-eaters found all cause premature mortality to be 20 per cent
lower among the vegetarians after adjusting for the confounding
effects of smoking, body mass index and socioeconomic status
(Thorogood, 1994). Cancer mortality was 39 per cent lower and
ischaemic heart disease 28 per cent lower among the vegetarians.

A 21-year study of Californian Seventh-Day Adventists also
revealed a significant association between meat consumption and
all causes of mortality (Kahn, 1984).

While other factors influencing health such as socioeconomic
differences, smoking and physical activity may play a confounding
role in these studies, there is sufficient evidence to suggest that a
reduced risk of mortality is directly linked to a vegetarian diet.
...'
http://www.purifymind.com/VegetarianHealth.htm

> Of course,
> they might have done better if they had done more boozing. Prohibition
> does not lead to a long life.

Boozing and moderation are two very different things.

"Jim Webster" > wrote in message ...
>
> "pearl" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Dean Hoffman" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > pearl wrote:
> > >
> > > Much cut.
> > > >
> > > > How many downed animals are slaughtered for human food in the
> > > > United States each year?
> > >
> > > None. Read this:
> > >
> > > http://www.bseinfo.org/faq.aspx#Whydoesn'ttheUStestevery?
> > >
> > > Look for the question about safeguards about 2/3 of the way down.
> >
> > In 2003. The horse is in Alabama by now.
> >
> > There's enough misinformation is there to float a yacht, btw.
> >
> > Didn't you know that cow's blood is still fed to calves?
>
> and where do you get that from?

http://tinyurl.com/6holh

http://www.organicconsumers.org/madcow/blood11104.cfm (Jan 2004 AP)

> I know that pigs blood used to be included in a milk replacer in the UK but
> that was back in the early 1980s

We're discussing downers in the US here, jim.

"pearl" > wrote in message
...
> "Jim Webster" > wrote in message
...
> >
> > "pearl" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Jim Webster" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > >
> > > > "pearl" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > form like the UK one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 'Downers' are highly suspect.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rubbish.
> > > <
> > > > > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1527/fdabse.html
> > > > >
> > > > > The TSE in the mink being traced to the mink's feed which
> > > > > consisted, in large part, of rendered 'downers'.
> > > >
> > > > Exactly, as I said, rubbish
> > >
> > > Not rubbish at all, jim.
> >
> > sorry, I must have cast doubt on one of your religious beliefs
>
> You are ignoring evidence, not belief.
>
> 'It is reassuring that outbreaks of TSEs on mink farms have been rare,
> and that none have been documented in the last ten years.

right, so it isn't actually a problem

However,
> one unsettling thing about Dr. Marsh's work on TSE is that the two
> calves infected with diseased mink brain did not act aggressively or
> exhibit any of the other behavioral symptoms typical of "mad cow"
> disease; rather, they just became a little stiff and sluggish and
> ultimately collapsed, much as a "downer" cow would.

so what, there are many conditions which cause a cow to become a 'downer'
cow. Milk fever is the most common in the UK, Getting injected with diseased
mink brain figures hardly at all


> > > Americans eat lots of hamburgers. One sick animal in the mix..
> >
> > meat is meat is meat, the level of infection in US beef has to be many
> > orders of magnitude less than in UK beef
>
> Why? Remember that most animals are slaughtered before symptoms
> become apparent.

Exactly like happened in the UK, where it is reckoned that up to a million
effectively diseased animals entered the food chain

with the result that we had 20 dead people a year for a few years, numbers
now falling and with damn all increase in Alzheimer's
(according to the Alzheimers society web site you published and they should
know)

Jim Webster

"pearl" > wrote in message
...
> "Jim Webster" > wrote in message
...
> >
> > "pearl" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Dean Hoffman" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > > pearl wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Much cut.
> > > > >
> > > > > How many downed animals are slaughtered for human food in the
> > > > > United States each year?
> > > >
> > > > None. Read this:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.bseinfo.org/faq.aspx#Whydoesn'ttheUStestevery?
> > > >
> > > > Look for the question about safeguards about 2/3 of the way
down.
> > >
> > > In 2003. The horse is in Alabama by now.
> > >
> > > There's enough misinformation is there to float a yacht, btw.
> > >
> > > Didn't you know that cow's blood is still fed to calves?
> >
> > and where do you get that from?
>
> http://tinyurl.com/6holh

USA Today examines the threat of mad cow disease in the U.S. asking "did you
know ... that calves, instead of drinking their mothers' milk, are fed
formula made from cows' blood? ... Says John Stauber, [co-]author of Mad Cow
USA: Could the Nightmare Happen Here?: 'What we need to do is obvious but
economically painful for the livestock industry.


>
> http://www.organicconsumers.org/madcow/blood11104.cfm (Jan 2004 AP)
>
> > I know that pigs blood used to be included in a milk replacer in the UK
but
> > that was back in the early 1980s
>
> We're discussing downers in the US here, jim.

but you still manage to confuse the figures for Alzheimer's between the US
and UK

Jim Webster

>
>
>

"Jim Webster" > wrote in message ...
>
> "pearl" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Jim Webster" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >
> > > "pearl" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > "Jim Webster" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > "pearl" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > form like the UK one.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 'Downers' are highly suspect.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Rubbish.
> > > > <
> > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1527/fdabse.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The TSE in the mink being traced to the mink's feed which
> > > > > > consisted, in large part, of rendered 'downers'.
> > > > >
> > > > > Exactly, as I said, rubbish
> > > >
> > > > Not rubbish at all, jim.
> > >
> > > sorry, I must have cast doubt on one of your religious beliefs
> >
> > You are ignoring evidence, not belief.
> >
> > 'It is reassuring that outbreaks of TSEs on mink farms have been rare,
> > and that none have been documented in the last ten years.
>
> right, so it isn't actually a problem

That the cause of the outbreaks was traced to their feed is.

> However,
> > one unsettling thing about Dr. Marsh's work on TSE is that the two
> > calves infected with diseased mink brain did not act aggressively or
> > exhibit any of the other behavioral symptoms typical of "mad cow"
> > disease; rather, they just became a little stiff and sluggish and
> > ultimately collapsed, much as a "downer" cow would.
>
> so what, there are many conditions which cause a cow to become a 'downer'
> cow. Milk fever is the most common in the UK, Getting injected with diseased
> mink brain figures hardly at all

The point is that many downers may have a TSE.

> > > > Americans eat lots of hamburgers. One sick animal in the mix..
> > >
> > > meat is meat is meat, the level of infection in US beef has to be many
> > > orders of magnitude less than in UK beef
> >
> > Why? Remember that most animals are slaughtered before symptoms
> > become apparent.
>
> Exactly like happened in the UK, where it is reckoned that up to a million
> effectively diseased animals entered the food chain

And still may be, unless you're testing every animal. Are you?

> with the result that we had 20 dead people a year for a few years, numbers
> now falling and with damn all increase in Alzheimer's

That's a lie, and you know it.

> (according to the Alzheimers society web site you published and they should
> know)

You continue to ignore this..

1993 to 1997.

Senile & pre-senile organic psychotic conditions
-England and Wales
Age-standardised death rates increased by 9% in women,
and by 12% in men.
-USA
Age-standardised death rates increased by 31% men and
by 53% in women.

Alzheimer’s disease
-England and Wales
Age-standardised death rates increased by 24% in men,
and by 45% in women.
-USA
Age-standardised death rates increased by 9% in men,
and by 28% in women. (1993 to 1995)

Other dementias and neurodegenerative disorders
-England and Wales
Age-standardised death rates increased by 17% in men,
and by 20% in women.
-USA
Age-standardised death rates increased by 35% in men,
and by 57% in women.

http://www.azmaj.org/PDF/HSQDem.pdf

Rates. Not the number of deaths, farmer jim.

In article >, "pearl" > wrote:
(snip)
>A known toxic.

Everything is toxic. We are only talking about the dose.

To quote someone clever than me ... what in the world isn't chemistry ?







Bruce


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)

In article >, "pearl" > wrote:
(snip)
>
>A known toxic.

Everything is toxic. We are only talking about the dose.


Bruce


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)

"pearl" > wrote in message
...
> "Jim Webster" > wrote in message
> > > 'It is reassuring that outbreaks of TSEs on mink farms have been rare,
> > > and that none have been documented in the last ten years.
> >
> > right, so it isn't actually a problem
>
> That the cause of the outbreaks was traced to their feed is.

no, it is a suggested cause

>
> > However,
> > > one unsettling thing about Dr. Marsh's work on TSE is that the two
> > > calves infected with diseased mink brain did not act aggressively or
> > > exhibit any of the other behavioral symptoms typical of "mad cow"
> > > disease; rather, they just became a little stiff and sluggish and
> > > ultimately collapsed, much as a "downer" cow would.
> >
> > so what, there are many conditions which cause a cow to become a
'downer'
> > cow. Milk fever is the most common in the UK, Getting injected with
diseased
> > mink brain figures hardly at all
>
> The point is that many downers may have a TSE.

the operative word is may.


>
> > > > > Americans eat lots of hamburgers. One sick animal in the mix..
> > > >
> > > > meat is meat is meat, the level of infection in US beef has to be
many
> > > > orders of magnitude less than in UK beef
> > >
> > > Why? Remember that most animals are slaughtered before symptoms
> > > become apparent.
> >
> > Exactly like happened in the UK, where it is reckoned that up to a
million
> > effectively diseased animals entered the food chain
>
> And still may be, unless you're testing every animal. Are you?

we test very few animals. We just had an OTMS scheme. We are moving over to
testing because it is cheaper

>
> > with the result that we had 20 dead people a year for a few years,
numbers
> > now falling and with damn all increase in Alzheimer's
>
> That's a lie, and you know it.

no, I just quote the website you quoted

>
> > (according to the Alzheimers society web site you published and they
should
> > know)
>
> You continue to ignore this..
>

yes because it is contradicted by the other web site you posted so at the
very least is hardly proof of anything

Jim Webster

pearl wrote:
> "Dean Hoffman" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> pearl wrote:
>>
>> Much cut.
>>
>>> How many downed animals are slaughtered for human food in the
>>> United States each year?
>>
>> None. Read this:
>>
>> http://www.bseinfo.org/faq.aspx#Whydoesn'ttheUStestevery?
>>
>> Look for the question about safeguards about 2/3 of the way down.
>
>
> In 2003. The horse is in Alabama by now.
>
> There's enough misinformation is there to float a yacht, btw.
>
> Didn't you know that cow's blood is still fed to calves?

Banned by the FDA about a year ago. The link below refers
to the ban and the reasoning behind using feeds with some blood
components.

>
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...alf+feed&hl=en



Dean




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In article >, (pearl)
says...

> > Thoughtless vegetarians don't live long. Neither do poor ones.
>
> Anyone eating a poor diet suffers, vegetarian or not.

Except some diseases are directly caused by a vegetarian diet, like
megaloblastic anemia. Vitamin B-12 does not exist in the plant kingdom.
Vegetarians are also at enhanced risk of several other dietary diseases,
like kwashiorkor and pellegra, unless their diet is closely managed.

You seem obsessed with brain degeneration, yet refuse to consider simple
anti-inflammatory drugs like ibuprofin that have preventive potential.
If you were to manage your ibuprofin intake as carefully as you have to
manage your diet for a vegetarian lifestyle, the chances of negative
side effects would be vanishingly small, and you might actually retard
the degeneration of your brain.

If your diet is a mania, go for it. There are more harmful manias in
the world, for sure. However, your proselytizing is less effective when
you refuse to take reasonable steps to deal with your fears.

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

Dean Hoffman wrote:
> pearl wrote:
>
>> "Dean Hoffman" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> pearl wrote:
>>>
>>> Much cut.
>>>
>>>> How many downed animals are slaughtered for human food in the
>>>> United States each year?
>>>
>>>
>>> None. Read this:
>>>
>>> http://www.bseinfo.org/faq.aspx#Whydoesn'ttheUStestevery?
>>>
>>> Look for the question about safeguards about 2/3 of the way down.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> In 2003. The horse is in Alabama by now.
>>
>> There's enough misinformation is there to float a yacht, btw.
>>
>> Didn't you know that cow's blood is still fed to calves?
>
>
> Banned by the FDA about a year ago. The link below refers to the
> ban and the reasoning behind using feeds with some blood components.
>
>
>>
> http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...alf+feed&hl=en
>
>
>
>
>
> Dean

It seems the FDA did not adopt the rule banning blood products
in animal feed. They put that proposed change on hold. They're
looking at a wider ban. This is in a January 05 Consumer Reports article.

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In article >, (pearl)
says...

> You continue to ignore this..
>
> 1993 to 1997.
>
> Senile & pre-senile organic psychotic conditions
> -England and Wales
> Age-standardised death rates increased by 9% in women,
> and by 12% in men.
> -USA
> Age-standardised death rates increased by 31% men and
> by 53% in women.

I'm curious what you think this means. As a hint, NOBODY thinks there
was a substantial increase in senile and pre-senile organic psychotic
conditions in just 4 years.

You are just spouting numbers that have no relevance to anything but
diagnosis and reporting.

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

If anyone wants to start this as a real discussion, I'd really like to
get some info on the recycling of farm and industrial waste as
fertilizer, particularly regarding any neutralizing of toxic materials
usually undertaken. I've failed to track Manganese through the farm and
crop system, and am beginning to think there may not be established
method and rules for slurry, other bio-waste, and testing crops for
toxic waste before feeding to animals (or people). I have NO
QUALIFICATIONS. That being settled, can we get on with it? Del Crow

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> If anyone wants to start this as a real discussion, I'd really like to
> get some info on the recycling of farm and industrial waste as
> fertilizer, particularly regarding any neutralizing of toxic materials
> usually undertaken. I've failed to track Manganese through the farm and
> crop system, and am beginning to think there may not be established
> method and rules for slurry, other bio-waste, and testing crops for
> toxic waste before feeding to animals (or people).


In the EU there are very few rules on the use of such things a cattle and
pig slurry. Most that there are relate to the ground conditions and the risk
of ground water pollution.

Jim Webster


I have NO
> QUALIFICATIONS. That being settled, can we get on with it? Del Crow
>

wrote:
> If anyone wants to start this as a real discussion, I'd really like
> to get some info on the recycling of farm and industrial waste as
> fertilizer, particularly regarding any neutralizing of toxic
> materials usually undertaken. I've failed to track Manganese through
> the farm and crop system, and am beginning to think there may not be
> established method and rules for slurry, other bio-waste, and testing
> crops for toxic waste before feeding to animals (or people). I have
> NO QUALIFICATIONS. That being settled, can we get on with it? Del
> Crow
>

There are some general guidelines for manure application. The
guidelines involve the time of year and application rate. Manure is
more of a nuisance than anything. It's applied to fields mainly to get
rid of it. Commercial fertilizers are much easier to handle.
Manganese is a micro nutrient and needed for crop growth by
the way.
This link is to the University of Nebraska at Lincoln. They do a lot
of ag research. There is a search feature and links to ag search engines.
They do have some information on human manure as fertilizer.
> http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/
There isn't much testing of crops. Feedlots around here raise some
of their own feed and buy some from their neighbors. A feeder won't
knowingly feed bad things to his animals. It slows their growth and
cuts into the bottom line.
Food grade crops are handled separately.


Dean

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Dean Hoffman > wrote in message >...
> wrote:
> >
> >
>
> There are some general guidelines for manure application. The
> guidelines involve the time of year and application rate. Manure is
> more of a nuisance than anything. It's applied to fields mainly to get
> rid of it. Commercial fertilizers are much easier to handle.
> Manganese is a micro nutrient and needed for crop growth by
> the way
Hi, Dean
Slurry anaerobic bacteria use some of the toxic Mn. Maybe how much is
important.
Also, plant lignin (stems generally) can use the Mn toxic levels along
with photosynthesis and water, knocking it back to vertebrate
bioavailable levels (ie Mn2+) But at which stage of maturity do the
crops reach that level; or does anyone care?
> This link is to the University of Nebraska at Lincoln. They do a lot
> of ag research. There is a search feature and links to ag search engines.
> They do have some information on human manure as fertilizer.
> > http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/
> There isn't much testing of crops. Feedlots around here raise some
> of their own feed and buy some from their neighbors. A feeder won't
> knowingly feed bad things to his animals. It slows their growth and
> cuts into the bottom line.
> Food grade crops are handled separately.
That's what seems to be the case, thanks, Dean
>
>
> Dean
>
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wrote:
> If anyone wants to start this as a real discussion, I'd really like
> to get some info on the recycling of farm and industrial waste as
> fertilizer, particularly regarding any neutralizing of toxic
> materials usually undertaken. I've failed to track Manganese through
> the farm and crop system, and am beginning to think there may not be
> established method and rules for slurry, other bio-waste, and
> testing crops for toxic waste before feeding to animals (or people).
> I have NO QUALIFICATIONS. That being settled, can we get on with
> it? Del Crow
>

Just a couple more points. I've never heard anyone say anything
about problems with manganese. The concern here in rural Nebraska is
mainly about nitrates. Most of our towns and almost all farmers get
their water from wells. Some of the towns have had to drill new wells
due to nitrate contamination.
Part of the blame has been placed on farmers over fertilizing their
crops. There are some regulations in place now. They vary from place
to place within the state. Technology has also improved. It's now
possible to be more precise with the application rate.
Improperly managed livestock feeding operations can also add to the
nitrate problem. Too many animals in a small area or bad drainage can
be the cause.
That link in the other post will probably lead you to all the
information you want.


Dean



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Dean Hoffman > wrote in message >...
> wrote:
> > If anyone wants to start this as a real discussion, I'd really like
> > to get some info on the recycling of farm and industrial waste as
> > fertilizer, particularly regarding any neutralizing of toxic
> > materials usually undertaken. I've failed to track Manganese through
> > the farm and crop system, and am beginning to think there may not be
> > established method and rules for slurry, other bio-waste, and
> > testing crops for toxic waste before feeding to animals (or people).
> > I have NO QUALIFICATIONS. That being settled, can we get on with
> > it? Del Crow
> >
>
> Just a couple more points. I've never heard anyone say anything
> about problems with manganese. The concern here in rural Nebraska is
> mainly about nitrates. Most of our towns and almost all farmers get
> their water from wells. Some of the towns have had to drill new wells
> due to nitrate contamination.
> Part of the blame has been placed on farmers over fertilizing their
> crops. There are some regulations in place now. They vary from place
> to place within the state. Technology has also improved. It's now
> possible to be more precise with the application rate.
> Improperly managed livestock feeding operations can also add to the
> nitrate problem. Too many animals in a small area or bad drainage can
> be the cause.
> That link in the other post will probably lead you to all the
> information........................Dean
>***Thanks Dean, I/ve got to go out to buy hay this am. The hay,from
high up in a hayshed, incidentally smells heavily of urine, which is
part of the trigger to these feed questions. The manganese+++etc
buildup is implicated in prion disease feed problems, with likely 3rd
or 4th hand human ingestion. Not much is being admitted. I'll get to
the search this evening......... Del ***
>
>
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(Del Crow) wrote in message . com>...
> Dean Hoffman > wrote in message >...
> > wrote:
> > > If anyone wants to start this as a real discussion, I'd really like
> > > to get some info on the recycling of farm and industrial waste as
> > > fertilizer, particularly regarding any neutralizing of toxic
> > > materials usually undertaken. I've failed to track Manganese through
> > > the farm and crop system, and am beginning to think there may not be
> > > established method and rules for slurry, other bio-waste, and
> > > testing crops for toxic waste before feeding to animals (or people).
> > > I have NO QUALIFICATIONS. That being settled, can we get on with
> > > it? Del Crow
> > >
> >
> > Just a couple more points. I've never heard anyone say anything
> > about problems with manganese. The concern here in rural Nebraska is
> > mainly about nitrates. Most of our towns and almost all farmers get
> > their water from wells. Some of the towns have had to drill new wells
> > due to nitrate contamination.
> > Part of the blame has been placed on farmers over fertilizing their
> > crops. There are some regulations in place now. They vary from place
> > to place within the state. Technology has also improved. It's now
> > possible to be more precise with the application rate.
> > Improperly managed livestock feeding operations can also add to the
> > nitrate problem. Too many animals in a small area or bad drainage can
> > be the cause.
> > That link in the other post will probably lead you to all the
> > information........................Dean
> >***Thanks Dean, I/ve got to go out to buy hay this am. The hay,from
> high up in a hayshed, incidentally smells heavily of urine, which is
> part of the trigger to these feed questions. The manganese+++etc
> buildup is implicated in prion disease feed problems, with likely 3rd
> or 4th hand human ingestion. Not much is being admitted. I'll get to
> the search this evening......... Del ***
> >
> >
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> > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

********** Hi, Dean.... Interesting Abstract Mn vs Cu ********

Department of Bioproduction Engineering, Faculty of Engineering, Kobe
University, 1-1 Rokkodai, Nada, Kobe 657-8501, Japan.

The conversion of the normal cellular prion protein to an abnormal
isoform is considered to be causal to the prion diseases or
transmissible spongiform encephalopathies. The prion protein is a
copper binding protein but under some conditions may bind other
metals. In particular, the binding of manganese has been suggested to
convert the prion protein (PrP) to a protease resistant isoform.
Therefore, the differences in the way the protein binds copper and
manganese might be revealing in terms of the mechanism of conversion
of the protein or its normal cellular activity. We report the use of
near-infrared spectroscopy for studies on aqueous solutions of prion
protein binding Cu or Mn. These alloforms of the protein were analyzed
by spectral data acquisition and multivariate analysis. Our results
indicate that PrP binds both Mn and Cu differently. Analyses of Cu
binding suggest that the PrP-Cu complex protected Cu from the water
increasing protein stability. PrP-Mn does not protect Mn from water
interactions. A real-time study of the protein alloforms showed that
PrP-Cu remains stable in solution, but that PrP-Mn underwent highly
different changes that led to fibril formation.

PMID: 15541389 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
********* I'm counting on a "water interaction" as part of
my personal treatment choice. (Look up MegaH PhiScience for how the
stuff might neutralize and hydrate Mg+++etc) (its
only 8 PM here on the west coast) But, Good night Dean. Del