In a recent thread Usual Suspect made the assertion that Adolph Hitler was a
vegetarian. I provided links, which he discounted, he also provided his own
link, from which he selectively snipped.

Both 'Ipse Dixit' and I proved him to be totally incorrect in his
conclusion, but he stubbornly rejects our evidence and repeats his own
unethical snippage of his own link.

Personally, I dislike protracted threads, so I throw it open to the groups.

Was Adolf Hitler a vegetarian?

"Ray" > wrote
> In a recent thread Usual Suspect made the assertion that Adolph Hitler was
a
> vegetarian. I provided links, which he discounted, he also provided his
own
> link, from which he selectively snipped.
>
> Both 'Ipse Dixit' and I proved him to be totally incorrect in his
> conclusion, but he stubbornly rejects our evidence and repeats his own
> unethical snippage of his own link.
>
> Personally, I dislike protracted threads, so I throw it open to the
groups.
>
> Was Adolf Hitler a vegetarian?

Sometimes. Records seem to indicate that he avoided meat for periods of
time, and that it was associated with a gastric condition, but he was not a
long-term vegetarian. It also appears that during these times he fancied
himself as a great defender of animals, and even embraced the idea of animal
rights. This led him to pontificate and make threats against those involved
in animal research. Like many veg*ns, he was hugely inconsistent, and had
irrational delusions of moral grandeur, but being *Adolph Hitler*, his were
somewhat more sinister that the usual loons we see here.

"Ray" > wrote in message
...
> Was Adolf Hitler a vegetarian?

this says not http://www.vegsource.com/berry/hitler.html

my question - is Sadam a meat eater?

John C

Ray wrote:
> In a recent thread Usual Suspect made the assertion that Adolph Hitler was a
> vegetarian. I provided links, which he discounted, he also provided his own
> link, from which he selectively snipped.

Slow down. The link I provided had Hitler's own quotes and quotes from his
secretary. The latter affirmed that Hitler refused meat when it was offered,
eating instead only side dishes.

> Both 'Ipse Dixit' and I proved him to be totally incorrect in his
> conclusion,

The two of you did no such thing. Quite the contrary. You're relying on
something which has been shown to be a red herring. The quote upon which you
rest your argument goes *either* way: no lab results to *prove* *or* *disprove*.
It is also entirely beside the point, and a red herring: lab results don't tell
us who is or isn't a vegetarian anyway.

What do we have to go on with respect to Hitler's diet? His own words and those
of his contemporaries.

Hitler said:
"One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to form an idea of the
shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one thing I can predict
to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian."
- Adolf Hitler. November 11, 1941. Section 66, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"If I offer a child the choice between a pear and a piece of meat, he'll quickly
choose the pear. That's his atavistic instinct speaking."
- Adolf Hitler. December 28, 1941. Section 81, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"The only thing of which I shall be incapable is to share the sheiks' mutton
with them. I'm a vegetarian, and they must spare me from their meat."
- Adolf Hitler. January 12, 1942. Section 105, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"At the time when I ate meat, I used to sweat a lot. I used to drink four pots
of beer and six bottles of water during a meeting. … When I became a vegetarian,
a mouthful of water was enough."
- Adolf Hitler. January 22, 1942. Section 117, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"When you offer a child the choice of a piece of meat, an apple, or a cake, it's
never the meat that he chooses. There's an ancestral instinct there."
- Adolf Hitler. January 22, 1942. Section 117, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"One has only to keep one's eyes open to notice what an extraordinary antipathy
young children have to meat."
- Adolf Hitler. April 25, 1942. Section 198, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"When I later gave up eating meat, I immediately began to perspire much less,
and within a fortnight to perspire hardly at all. My thirst, too, decreased
considerably, and an occasional sip of water was all I required. Vegetarian
diet, therefore, has some obvious advantages."
- Adolf Hitler. July 8, 1942. Section 256, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"I am no admirer of the poacher, particularly as I am a vegetarian."
- Adolf Hitler. August 20, 1942. Section 293, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

Source: HITLER'S TABLE TALK: 1941-1944. Enigma Books.

http://www.geocities.com/hitlerwasavegetarian/

His secretary said:
"I admit, I was fascinated by Adolf Hitler. He was a pleasant boss and a
fatherly friend. I deliberately ignored all the warning voices inside me
and enjoyed the time by his side almost until the bitter end. … It
wasn't what he said, but the way he said things and how he did things."

Such things included his modest appetite, and the way he ate only side
dishes - *ALWAYS AVOIDING MEAT*.

His Austrian cook Kruemel believed that life without meat was not worth
living, and would often try to sneak a little animal broth or fat into
the meal.

"Mostly the Fuhrer would notice the attempt at deception, would get very
annoyed and then get tummy ache. At the end he would only let Kruemel
cook him clear soup and mashed potato."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1800287.stm [my emphasis]

> but he stubbornly rejects our evidence

Does your "evidence" contain quotes about how much he enjoyed meat, hunting,
etc.? Does your "evidence" contain quotes from those with firsthand knowledge of
the man from living with him? Traudl Junge, his secretary, had firsthand
knowledge. Read again her quote above, particularly the part I emphasized to
disabuse your error.

> and repeats his own unethical snippage of his own link.

I explained my decision to leave the part about laboratory results out already:
"Laboratory results" do not indicate one's primary diet. It can indicate
deficiencies or excesses, and in connection with a post mortem those
findings can point to organic causes or dietary causes. That said,
deficiencies can exist in vegetarians or non-vegetarians and excesses
can likewise exist in either group. It's a red herring -- and
irrelevant, as [Derk] kindly pointed out.

> Personally, I dislike protracted threads, so I throw it open to the groups.
>
> Was Adolf Hitler a vegetarian?

Yes. He said he was, and his secretary has confirmed it in her account above.
Read the BBC article for yourself.

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> Ray wrote:
> > In a recent thread Usual Suspect made the assertion that Adolph Hitler
was a
> > vegetarian. I provided links, which he discounted, he also provided his
own
> > link, from which he selectively snipped.
>
> Slow down. The link I provided had Hitler's own quotes and quotes from his
> secretary. The latter affirmed that Hitler refused meat when it was
offered,
> eating instead only side dishes.
>
> > Both 'Ipse Dixit' and I proved him to be totally incorrect in his
> > conclusion,
>
> The two of you did no such thing. Quite the contrary. You're relying on
> something which has been shown to be a red herring. The quote upon which
you
> rest your argument goes *either* way: no lab results to *prove* *or*
*disprove*.
> It is also entirely beside the point, and a red herring: lab results don't
tell
> us who is or isn't a vegetarian anyway.
>
> What do we have to go on with respect to Hitler's diet? His own words and
those
> of his contemporaries.
>
> Hitler said:
> "One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to form an idea of
the
> shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one thing I can
predict
> to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian."
> - Adolf Hitler. November 11, 1941. Section 66, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
>
> "If I offer a child the choice between a pear and a piece of meat, he'll
quickly
> choose the pear. That's his atavistic instinct speaking."
> - Adolf Hitler. December 28, 1941. Section 81, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
>
> "The only thing of which I shall be incapable is to share the sheiks'
mutton
> with them. I'm a vegetarian, and they must spare me from their meat."
> - Adolf Hitler. January 12, 1942. Section 105, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
>
> "At the time when I ate meat, I used to sweat a lot. I used to drink four
pots
> of beer and six bottles of water during a meeting. … When I became a
vegetarian,
> a mouthful of water was enough."
> - Adolf Hitler. January 22, 1942. Section 117, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
>
> "When you offer a child the choice of a piece of meat, an apple, or a
cake, it's
> never the meat that he chooses. There's an ancestral instinct there."
> - Adolf Hitler. January 22, 1942. Section 117, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
>
> "One has only to keep one's eyes open to notice what an extraordinary
antipathy
> young children have to meat."
> - Adolf Hitler. April 25, 1942. Section 198, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
>
> "When I later gave up eating meat, I immediately began to perspire much
less,
> and within a fortnight to perspire hardly at all. My thirst, too,
decreased
> considerably, and an occasional sip of water was all I required.
Vegetarian
> diet, therefore, has some obvious advantages."
> - Adolf Hitler. July 8, 1942. Section 256, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
>
> "I am no admirer of the poacher, particularly as I am a vegetarian."
> - Adolf Hitler. August 20, 1942. Section 293, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
>
> Source: HITLER'S TABLE TALK: 1941-1944. Enigma Books.
>
> http://www.geocities.com/hitlerwasavegetarian/
>
> His secretary said:
> "I admit, I was fascinated by Adolf Hitler. He was a pleasant boss
and a
> fatherly friend. I deliberately ignored all the warning voices inside
me
> and enjoyed the time by his side almost until the bitter end. … It
> wasn't what he said, but the way he said things and how he did
things."
>
> Such things included his modest appetite, and the way he ate only
side
> dishes - *ALWAYS AVOIDING MEAT*.
>
> His Austrian cook Kruemel believed that life without meat was not
worth
> living, and would often try to sneak a little animal broth or fat
into
> the meal.
>
> "Mostly the Fuhrer would notice the attempt at deception, would get
very
> annoyed and then get tummy ache. At the end he would only let Kruemel
> cook him clear soup and mashed potato."
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1800287.stm [my emphasis]
>
> > but he stubbornly rejects our evidence
>
> Does your "evidence" contain quotes about how much he enjoyed meat,
hunting,
> etc.? Does your "evidence" contain quotes from those with firsthand
knowledge of
> the man from living with him? Traudl Junge, his secretary, had firsthand
> knowledge. Read again her quote above, particularly the part I emphasized
to
> disabuse your error.
>
> > and repeats his own unethical snippage of his own link.
>
> I explained my decision to leave the part about laboratory results out
already:
> "Laboratory results" do not indicate one's primary diet. It can
indicate
> deficiencies or excesses, and in connection with a post mortem those
> findings can point to organic causes or dietary causes. That said,
> deficiencies can exist in vegetarians or non-vegetarians and excesses
> can likewise exist in either group. It's a red herring -- and
> irrelevant, as [Derk] kindly pointed out.
>
> > Personally, I dislike protracted threads, so I throw it open to the
groups.
> >
> > Was Adolf Hitler a vegetarian?
>
> Yes. He said he was, and his secretary has confirmed it in her account
above.
> Read the BBC article for yourself.

I've read it, but you ignore all the other information to the contrary made
by people who actually 'knew the man'.

You ignore these in the same manner as you ignore the conclusion from the
very site from which you quote. This clearly states:-

**[ The fact is, there are no actual laboratory results on record that can
> be
> > >>>>>used to prove or disprove Hitler's Vegetarianism.]**

Read this one taken from the many reports on the net.

> > http://www.vegsource.com/berry/hitler.html.

You are wrong in your original statement that "Hitler was a vegetarian"

It matters little either way, the importance is your persistent denial of
the truth.

"Ray" > wrote in message
...
>
> "usual suspect" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Ray wrote:
> > > In a recent thread Usual Suspect made the assertion that Adolph Hitler
> was a
> > > vegetarian. I provided links, which he discounted, he also provided
his
> own
> > > link, from which he selectively snipped.
> >
> > Slow down. The link I provided had Hitler's own quotes and quotes from
his
> > secretary. The latter affirmed that Hitler refused meat when it was
> offered,
> > eating instead only side dishes.
> >
> > > Both 'Ipse Dixit' and I proved him to be totally incorrect in his
> > > conclusion,
> >
> > The two of you did no such thing. Quite the contrary. You're relying on
> > something which has been shown to be a red herring. The quote upon which
> you
> > rest your argument goes *either* way: no lab results to *prove* *or*
> *disprove*.
> > It is also entirely beside the point, and a red herring: lab results
don't
> tell
> > us who is or isn't a vegetarian anyway.
> >
> > What do we have to go on with respect to Hitler's diet? His own words
and
> those
> > of his contemporaries.
> >
> > Hitler said:
> > "One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to form an idea
of
> the
> > shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one thing I can
> predict
> > to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian."
> > - Adolf Hitler. November 11, 1941. Section 66, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
> >
> > "If I offer a child the choice between a pear and a piece of meat, he'll
> quickly
> > choose the pear. That's his atavistic instinct speaking."
> > - Adolf Hitler. December 28, 1941. Section 81, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
> >
> > "The only thing of which I shall be incapable is to share the sheiks'
> mutton
> > with them. I'm a vegetarian, and they must spare me from their meat."
> > - Adolf Hitler. January 12, 1942. Section 105, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
> >
> > "At the time when I ate meat, I used to sweat a lot. I used to drink
four
> pots
> > of beer and six bottles of water during a meeting. . When I became a
> vegetarian,
> > a mouthful of water was enough."
> > - Adolf Hitler. January 22, 1942. Section 117, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
> >
> > "When you offer a child the choice of a piece of meat, an apple, or a
> cake, it's
> > never the meat that he chooses. There's an ancestral instinct there."
> > - Adolf Hitler. January 22, 1942. Section 117, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
> >
> > "One has only to keep one's eyes open to notice what an extraordinary
> antipathy
> > young children have to meat."
> > - Adolf Hitler. April 25, 1942. Section 198, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
> >
> > "When I later gave up eating meat, I immediately began to perspire much
> less,
> > and within a fortnight to perspire hardly at all. My thirst, too,
> decreased
> > considerably, and an occasional sip of water was all I required.
> Vegetarian
> > diet, therefore, has some obvious advantages."
> > - Adolf Hitler. July 8, 1942. Section 256, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
> >
> > "I am no admirer of the poacher, particularly as I am a vegetarian."
> > - Adolf Hitler. August 20, 1942. Section 293, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
> >
> > Source: HITLER'S TABLE TALK: 1941-1944. Enigma Books.
> >
> > http://www.geocities.com/hitlerwasavegetarian/
> >
> > His secretary said:
> > "I admit, I was fascinated by Adolf Hitler. He was a pleasant boss
> and a
> > fatherly friend. I deliberately ignored all the warning voices
inside
> me
> > and enjoyed the time by his side almost until the bitter end. . It
> > wasn't what he said, but the way he said things and how he did
> things."
> >
> > Such things included his modest appetite, and the way he ate only
> side
> > dishes - *ALWAYS AVOIDING MEAT*.
> >
> > His Austrian cook Kruemel believed that life without meat was not
> worth
> > living, and would often try to sneak a little animal broth or fat
> into
> > the meal.
> >
> > "Mostly the Fuhrer would notice the attempt at deception, would get
> very
> > annoyed and then get tummy ache. At the end he would only let
Kruemel
> > cook him clear soup and mashed potato."
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1800287.stm [my emphasis]
> >
> > > but he stubbornly rejects our evidence
> >
> > Does your "evidence" contain quotes about how much he enjoyed meat,
> hunting,
> > etc.? Does your "evidence" contain quotes from those with firsthand
> knowledge of
> > the man from living with him? Traudl Junge, his secretary, had firsthand
> > knowledge. Read again her quote above, particularly the part I
emphasized
> to
> > disabuse your error.
> >
> > > and repeats his own unethical snippage of his own link.
> >
> > I explained my decision to leave the part about laboratory results out
> already:
> > "Laboratory results" do not indicate one's primary diet. It can
> indicate
> > deficiencies or excesses, and in connection with a post mortem
those
> > findings can point to organic causes or dietary causes. That said,
> > deficiencies can exist in vegetarians or non-vegetarians and
excesses
> > can likewise exist in either group. It's a red herring -- and
> > irrelevant, as [Derk] kindly pointed out.
> >
> > > Personally, I dislike protracted threads, so I throw it open to the
> groups.
> > >
> > > Was Adolf Hitler a vegetarian?
> >
> > Yes. He said he was, and his secretary has confirmed it in her account
> above.
> > Read the BBC article for yourself.
>
> I've read it, but you ignore all the other information to the contrary
made
> by people who actually 'knew the man'.
>
> You ignore these in the same manner as you ignore the conclusion from the
> very site from which you quote. This clearly states:-
>
> **[ The fact is, there are no actual laboratory results on record that can
> > be
> > > >>>>>used to prove or disprove Hitler's Vegetarianism.]**
>
> Read this one taken from the many reports on the net.
>
> > > http://www.vegsource.com/berry/hitler.html.
>
> You are wrong in your original statement that "Hitler was a vegetarian"
>
> It matters little either way, the importance is your persistent denial of
> the truth.
I think it is better to let some sleeping dogs sleep-and not bring up
whether Hitler was or wasn't-obviously he was a very sick person-Kill people
not animals...

Ray wrote:
<...>
>>Read the BBC article for yourself.
>
> I've read it, but you ignore all the other information to the contrary made
> by people who actually 'knew the man'.

From your vegsource article:
Lucas, drawing on her experiences as a hotel chef in Hamburg during the
1930s, remembered being called upon quite often to prepare Hitler's
favorite dish, which was not a vegetarian one.

From my source which quotes Hitler himself:
Question: On May 30, 1937 The New York Times reported, "Hitler is a
vegetarian, ... although he occasionally relishes a slice of ham and
relieves the tediousness of his diet with such delicacies as caviar...".
How can such allegations of Hitler "occasionally" eating meat be
reconciled with the apparent fact that Hitler was a vegetarian?

Answer: Whenever people make an extreme change in diet it is entirely
normal for them to "occasionally" suffer from a lack of willpower during
which they will temporarily revert to their old eating habits. As time
goes by, the frequency of their backsliding diminishes until eventually
the transition to their new diet is complete. It's a natural weaning
process: three steps forward for every one step backward until the goal
is reached. Accordingly, there is nothing damning nor surprising in any
allegations that Hitler "occasionally" ate meat, as was claimed in The
New York Times article dated 1937. Such unsubstantiated claims, if
accurate, merely indicate that Hitler's transition to vegetarianism was
a routinely gradual one that may not have reached completion until the
1940's,* (by all accounts, Hitler's lasting effort to go vegetarian
began in the 1930's). All things considered, there is nothing to suggest
that Hitler's vegetarianism was anything less than a sincere struggle
marked with honest failings in its formative stages.
*Notice that all of Hitler's vegetarian remarks quoted throughout this
webpage are from the 1940's.

First, can you find a timeline of Dione Lucas' employment in Hamburg to
determine when she cooked for Hitler? Second, did you go veg full stop, Raymond?
Do most people? No, they usually go through a weaning process. Even after
weaning, they g


> You ignore these in the same manner as you ignore the conclusion from the
> very site from which you quote. This clearly states:-
>
> **[ The fact is, there are no actual laboratory results on record that can
>
>>be
>>
>>>>>>>>used to prove or disprove Hitler's Vegetarianism.]**

Stop exaggerating. That's not *the* conclusion. As already explained to you,
it's a red herring. Science cannot determine the components of one's diet simply
through "laboratory results," whatever that means.

> Read this one taken from the many reports on the net.

I have. It's repeated around the internet. Many of the issues your article
raises are dealt with in the FAQ on the page I linked. Perhaps you should read it.

>>>http://www.vegsource.com/berry/hitler.html.
>
> You are wrong in your original statement that "Hitler was a vegetarian"

Ipse dixit.

> It matters little either way, the importance is your persistent denial of
> the truth.

I'm not the one denying anything. Hitler called himself a vegetarian, starting
in 1937 (*your* source says as much: 'Hitler did not describe himself as a
"vegetarian" until 1937'). Your source raises several red herrings and non
sequiturs. One of them is this:
...[O]ne could infer that Hitler was not a true vegetarian from the
poor state of his health.
I can show you overweight, flatulent, anemic, etc., vegetarians and
non-vegetarians. Berry insinuates that all vegetarian diets are healthy and all
meat-containing diets are unhealthy; nothing could be further from the truth.
The Berry then lists some of the maladies for which Hitler's doctor purportedly
recommended abstaining from meat. By all indications, and from his own words and
the words of those around him, he did just that starting in the 1930s and
gradually weaning himself off meat, for the most part, in the 1940s.

I also think your source has a bit of a bias:
Rynn Berry is the historical advisor to the NAVS (North American
Vegetarian Society) and is on the Advisory Board of Earth Save.

I remain unconvinced by your source's source. Berry's primary source in
objection to the "Hitler was a vegetarian" is Robert Payne. Yet my source says,
Historians Alan Bullock, Ian Kershaw, and John Toland are indisputably
the three most highly acclaimed Hitler biographers. Each of their
extensive Hitler biographies was written after Robert Payne had
published his speculative denial of Hitler’s vegetarianism. Neither
Bullock, Kershaw, nor Toland gave any credence to Payne's unfounded
theory. On the contrary, all three concluded that Hitler became a
vegetarian.

Berry is a polemicist and *all* his work is to defend the militant vegetarian
agenda (read "About the Author"). That is also borne out in his prolific non
sequiturs, red herrings, and his complete confusion between diet and dietary
politics, such as:
It is noteworthy that Hitler, this alleged vegetarian and lover of
animals, had no compunction about first testing the cyanide on his dog
Blondi. [This comes from the part about his and Eva Braun's suicides.]

Suicide is a desperate measure, and is usually the culmination of any number of
mental illnesses (notably depression). I found it amusing that Mr Berry's thesis
would contain such a digression. Hitler merely took those he loved, Eva and
Blondi, with him to avoid falling into enemy (i.e., Russian) hands.

In totality, we're left with a sickly leader who was advised sometime in the
1930s to abstain from meat. We have a chef who'd cooked squab for him sometime
in the 1930s. We have some agreement in our sources that Hitler yo-yoed with
vegetarianism in the 1930s. We have his secretary who says that at the time of
her employment he ate only side dishes, not meat. We have his own informally
recorded statements from the 1940s that he was vegetarian.

I'm convinced from the totality of evidence that he was. He may not have been a
perfect one (who is?), but his inclinations, his support of AR, and the accounts
of those around him lend sufficient credibility that it shouldn't be reflexively
dismissed, not even by agenda-driven sloths like you.

usual suspect wrote:
<...>
> First, can you find a timeline of Dione Lucas' employment in Hamburg to
> determine when she cooked for Hitler? Second, did you go veg full stop,
> Raymond? Do most people? No, they usually go through a weaning process.
> Even after weaning, they g

Finishing up (phone):
Even after weaning, they often go through yo-yo splurges in which meat is again
consumed. Most people don't go vegetarian cold turkey. Even the information from
PETA and other sources recommends a gradual transition.

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
news
> usual suspect wrote:
> <...>
> > First, can you find a timeline of Dione Lucas' employment in Hamburg to
> > determine when she cooked for Hitler?

No, neither can you.

Second, did you go veg full stop,
> > Raymond? Do most people? No, they usually go through a weaning process.
> > Even after weaning, they g
>
> Finishing up (phone):

Wrong number, but do carry on


> Even after weaning, they often go through yo-yo splurges in which meat is
again
> consumed. Most people don't go vegetarian cold turkey. Even the
information from
> PETA and other sources recommends a gradual transition.

I did go veg full stop.
Absolutely no problem, and it was a damn sight harder thirty odd years ago.

But that is of no importance.

The point is that you have stated that Hitler was a vegetarian, bad move.

You can find nothing to support your claim other than the reported words
from Hitler's own mouth. Even then you fail to accept the conclusion.

Ask yourself, was Hitler a person you could trust to speak the truth? You
have, your entire assertion is based on what he supposedly said. (Hitler's
Table Talk).

Simple fact:-

You associated Hitler with vegetarianism in order to discredit the latter.

You failed because you can ofer no concrete evidence. Clearly you should not
have made the claim because nobody believes a Vegan with egg on his face.

[END]
>

Old Coot Ray wrote:
>><...>
>>
>>>First, can you find a timeline of Dione Lucas' employment in Hamburg to
>>>determine when she cooked for Hitler?
>
> No, neither can you.

That would be the first step to discrediting the claim that Hitler was a
vegetarian, Ray. If she cooked squab for him in 1938 or 1939, then he was not a
vegetarian. If she cooked squab for him before 1937, when Hitler reportedly
began his transition to a vegetarian diet (not to mention a vegetarian
pseudophilosphy), then it's quite possible he was right. You're dismissing
things based on incomplete information. I'm basing my opinion on (a) testimony
of post-1937 eyewitnesses, (b) recorded conversations with Hitler, and (c) the
view of apparently all but one historian.

With respect to (b), please review my link again. Those aren't recollected
informal discussions, they were recorded contemporaneously.

From the publisher: On Martin Bormann's instructions, the secret
conversations at Hitler's headquarters, from July 1941 to November 1944,
were all recorded for posterity.
http://www.geocities.com/hitlerwasavegetarian/

> Second, did you go veg full stop,
>>>Raymond? Do most people? No, they usually go through a weaning process.
>>>Even after weaning, they g
>>
>>Finishing up (phone):
>
> Wrong number, but do carry on

It was the right number, just the wrong time for me (but not for the caller).

>>Even after weaning, they often go through yo-yo splurges in which meat is
> again
>>consumed. Most people don't go vegetarian cold turkey. Even the
> information from
>>PETA and other sources recommends a gradual transition.
>
> I did go veg full stop.

Congratulations.

> Absolutely no problem, and it was a damn sight harder thirty odd years ago.
>
> But that is of no importance.

Not as far as you're concerned, but what about Hitler?

> The point is that you have stated that Hitler was a vegetarian, bad move.

On what grounds?

> You can find nothing to support your claim other than the reported words
> from Hitler's own mouth. Even then you fail to accept the conclusion.

That was not the conclusion. That was part of the FAQ. There is a section called
"Closing Thoughts" on that page. It doesn't leave the issue hanging as you would
have others believe:
Closing Thoughts

"One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to form an idea
of the shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one thing
I can predict to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be
vegetarian."
- Adolf Hitler. November 11, 1941. Section 66, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

There is more than enough factual evidence -- regarding human health,
world hunger, animal welfare, the environment, and economics -- to
easily demonstrate that a vegetarian diet is the optimum diet for
humankind, now more than ever. It was the one thing that Hitler actually
had right! But, don't let the surprising fact of his admirable
vegetarianism distract you from the horrible truth about Hitler. There
can be no denying nor defending his monstrous crimes against humanity.

> Ask yourself, was Hitler a person you could trust to speak the truth? You
> have, your entire assertion is based on what he supposedly said. (Hitler's
> Table Talk).

Wrong, I'm basing my opinion on (a) testimony of post-1937 eyewitnesses, (b)
recorded conversations with Hitler, and (c) the view of apparently all but one
historian.

> Simple fact:-
>
> You associated Hitler with vegetarianism in order to discredit the latter.

Wrong. Vegetarianism is an issue which stands or falls on its own merit. I
pointed to authoritarianism of veg-ns and animal rights supporters, and I noted
the Nazis enacting the most comprehensive AR laws at the time. If you have a
bone to pick, pick it with Hitler himself, Traudl Junge, Alan Bullock, Ian
Kershaw, John Toland, and others.

> You failed because you can ofer no concrete evidence.

I've provided sufficient evidence that supports my opinion that Hitler was a
vegetarian, or at the very least what is today called "flexitarian" -- basically
a vegetarian who occasionally eats meat.

> Clearly you should not
> have made the claim because nobody believes a Vegan with egg on his face.

I am not the one making the claim. I just happen to think it has more validity
than the pro-vegetarian groups who seek to distance themselves from Hitler.
Historians Alan Bullock, Ian Kershaw, and John Toland are indisputably
the three most highly acclaimed Hitler biographers. Each of their
extensive Hitler biographies was written after Robert Payne had
published his speculative denial of Hitler’s vegetarianism. Neither
Bullock, Kershaw, nor Toland gave any credence to Payne's unfounded
theory. On the contrary, all three concluded that Hitler became a
vegetarian.

The irony of all of this, Ray, and I find it all hilarious, is that you would
have agreed ONE-HUNDRED PERCENT with him if I'd pasted in his quotes without
citing who said it. You'd wet your pants with excitement. You'd be on the
bandwagon. You'd be such a yes-man than you'd not even say "know" for fear of
being misunderstood. You'd want him to run in your constituency, especially when
you learned of his views on ethnic minorities. And you know that, too.

> [END]

You'll reply. You can't keep your old yapper shut long enough.

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> Old Coot Ray wrote:
> >><...>
> >>
> >>>First, can you find a timeline of Dione Lucas' employment in Hamburg to
> >>>determine when she cooked for Hitler?
> >
> > No, neither can you.
>
> That would be the first step to discrediting the claim that Hitler was a
> vegetarian, Ray. If she cooked squab for him in 1938 or 1939, then he was
not a
> vegetarian. If she cooked squab for him before 1937, when Hitler
reportedly
> began his transition to a vegetarian diet (not to mention a vegetarian
> pseudophilosphy), then it's quite possible he was right. You're dismissing
> things based on incomplete information. I'm basing my opinion on (a)
testimony
> of post-1937 eyewitnesses, (b) recorded conversations with Hitler, and (c)
the
> view of apparently all but one historian.
>
> With respect to (b), please review my link again. Those aren't recollected
> informal discussions, they were recorded contemporaneously.
>
> From the publisher: On Martin Bormann's instructions, the secret
> conversations at Hitler's headquarters, from July 1941 to November 1944,
> were all recorded for posterity.
> http://www.geocities.com/hitlerwasavegetarian/
>
> > Second, did you go veg full stop,
> >>>Raymond? Do most people? No, they usually go through a weaning process.
> >>>Even after weaning, they g
> >>
> >>Finishing up (phone):
> >
> > Wrong number, but do carry on
>
> It was the right number, just the wrong time for me (but not for the
caller).
>
> >>Even after weaning, they often go through yo-yo splurges in which meat
is
> > again
> >>consumed. Most people don't go vegetarian cold turkey. Even the
> > information from
> >>PETA and other sources recommends a gradual transition.
> >
> > I did go veg full stop.
>
> Congratulations.
>
> > Absolutely no problem, and it was a damn sight harder thirty odd years
ago.
> >
> > But that is of no importance.
>
> Not as far as you're concerned, but what about Hitler?
>
> > The point is that you have stated that Hitler was a vegetarian, bad
move.
>
> On what grounds?
>
> > You can find nothing to support your claim other than the reported words
> > from Hitler's own mouth. Even then you fail to accept the conclusion.
>
> That was not the conclusion. That was part of the FAQ. There is a section
called
> "Closing Thoughts" on that page. It doesn't leave the issue hanging as you
would
> have others believe:
> Closing Thoughts

"Closing thoughts", sounds like a conclusion to me.
>
> "One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to form an idea
> of the shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one thing
> I can predict to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be
> vegetarian."
> - Adolf Hitler. November 11, 1941. Section 66, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
>
> There is more than enough factual evidence -- regarding human health,
> world hunger, animal welfare, the environment, and economics -- to
> easily demonstrate that a vegetarian diet is the optimum diet for
> humankind, now more than ever. It was the one thing that Hitler actually
> had right! But, don't let the surprising fact of his admirable
> vegetarianism distract you from the horrible truth about Hitler. There
> can be no denying nor defending his monstrous crimes against humanity.
>
> > Ask yourself, was Hitler a person you could trust to speak the truth?
You
> > have, your entire assertion is based on what he supposedly said.
(Hitler's
> > Table Talk).
>
> Wrong, I'm basing my opinion on (a) testimony of post-1937 eyewitnesses,
(b)
> recorded conversations with Hitler, and (c) the view of apparently all but
one
> historian.
>
> > Simple fact:-
> >
> > You associated Hitler with vegetarianism in order to discredit the
latter.
>
> Wrong. Vegetarianism is an issue which stands or falls on its own merit. I
> pointed to authoritarianism of veg-ns and animal rights supporters, and I
noted
> the Nazis enacting the most comprehensive AR laws at the time. If you have
a
> bone to pick, pick it with Hitler himself, Traudl Junge, Alan Bullock, Ian
> Kershaw, John Toland, and others.
>
> > You failed because you can ofer no concrete evidence.

<siippage restored later>
>
>[ I've provided sufficient evidence that supports my opinion that Hitler
was a
> vegetarian, or at the very least what is today called "flexitarian" --
basically
> a vegetarian who occasionally eats meat.]


>
> > Clearly you should not
> > have made the claim because nobody believes a Vegan with egg on his
face.
>
> I am not the one making the claim. I just happen to think it has more
validity
> than the pro-vegetarian groups who seek to distance themselves from
Hitler.
> Historians Alan Bullock, Ian Kershaw, and John Toland are indisputably
> the three most highly acclaimed Hitler biographers. Each of their
> extensive Hitler biographies was written after Robert Payne had
> published his speculative denial of Hitler’s vegetarianism. Neither
> Bullock, Kershaw, nor Toland gave any credence to Payne's unfounded
> theory. On the contrary, all three concluded that Hitler became a
> vegetarian.
>
> The irony of all of this, Ray, and I find it all hilarious, is that you
would
> have agreed ONE-HUNDRED PERCENT with him if I'd pasted in his quotes
without
> citing who said it. You'd wet your pants with excitement. You'd be on the
> bandwagon. You'd be such a yes-man than you'd not even say "know" for fear
of
> being misunderstood. You'd want him to run in your constituency,
especially when
> you learned of his views on ethnic minorities. And you know that, too.
>
> > [END]
>
> You'll reply. You can't keep your old yapper shut long enough.

Dead right,

You have proved that you should not have made the original posting. Even
Dutch will not agree with you!

You have nothing to substainiate your foolish claim, the only thing you have
proved is that you are a seriously Bad, Bad, LOSER.

You have placed your own knackers in the rat trap, so don't blame me because
it hurts. LOSER.

> http://www.veg-world.com/articles/historical.htm

>[ I've provided sufficient evidence that supports my opinion that Hitler
was a
> vegetarian, or at the very least what is today called "flexitarian" --
basically
> a vegetarian who occasionally eats meat.] ---usual suspect

You have proved that Hitler was a meat eating vegetarian:-)

I'll settle for that.

Knackered Senile Old Coot Ray wrote:
<...>
>>>[END]
>>
>>You'll reply. You can't keep your old yapper shut long enough.
>
> Dead right,

At least we found *some* area of agreement.

> You have proved that you should not have made the original posting.

Too bad you couldn't address any of the points I made in my reply.

> Even Dutch will not agree with you!

You think?

> You have nothing to substainiate your foolish claim,

His recorded quotes on the matter. The testimony of his contemporaries. All but
one historian. What do you have? The lone historian whose conclusion about
Hitler's diet was speculative, vegetarian advocacy websites.

> the only thing you have
> proved is that you are a seriously Bad, Bad, LOSER.

Is that why you're attacking me rather than my reply? I'm basing my opinion on
(a) testimony of post-1937 eyewitnesses, (b) recorded conversations with Hitler,
and (c) the view of apparently all but one historian. The irony in all of this,
is that you would have agreed ONE-HUNDRED PERCENT with him if I'd pasted in
his quotes without citing who said it.

> You have placed your own knackers in the rat trap, so don't blame me because
> it hurts. LOSER.

Why didn't you address my thoughtful response rather than attack me personally?

> http://www.veg-world.com/articles/historical.htm

From your "source":
For the last *#$%!ng time, Hitler was not a vegetarian
Whatever else motivated the Fürher, it was not a desire for a
cruelty-free life style.

I'm vegetarian but it's not for a desire of a "cruelty-free" lifestyle --
there's no such thing. Vegetarian diets are not free of cruelty, however you
define the term. Such notions deny the antecedent, i.e., "I don't eat meat, so
no animals die." You've already ceded the CD issue, so you know animals die in
the course of your food and beer production. The manner in which those animals
die -- thrashing, slashing, mutilation, poisoning, drowning, trapping, etc. --
you would consider such deaths inhumane if they were performed in a laboratory,
yet you have no objections when it's for barley for your lager.

Here's your cruelty-free lifesyle, Ray:
http://www.bds.org.uk/Research/Silag...entperrier.htm

One more thing, there's an "urban legends" link on the page you linked. I just
tried to look up other UL sites and got some interesting hits. Consider this
from a list of famous vegetarians:
Adolf Hitler - according to several sources who had close personal
contact with him, including the architect Albert Speer, his personal
secretary Traudl Junge, and both of his cooks, Constanze Manziarly and
Marlene von Exner. All of the respected biographies of Hitler, including
those by Joachim Fest and Ian Kershaw, state that Hitler became a
steadfast vegetarian after the death of his niece Geli Raubal in 1931.
There is an urban legend that he occasionally engaged in the consumption
of pork, but no member of his personal circle has confirmed this.
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclop...of-vegetarians

You're free to believe the veg-n societies rather historians and eyewitnesses.

>>[ I've provided sufficient evidence that supports my opinion that Hitler
> was a
>>vegetarian, or at the very least what is today called "flexitarian" --
> basically
>>a vegetarian who occasionally eats meat.] ---usual suspect
>
> You have proved that Hitler was a meat eating vegetarian:-)

I qualified with "at the very least;" I believe that he was vegetarian along
with most historians, those who lived around him and observed his habits, and
from his own words.

> I'll settle for that.

You have so much in common with him, Ray:
"I am no admirer of the poacher, particularly as I am a vegetarian."
- Adolf Hitler. August 20, 1942. Section 293, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"Hunters have no rights."
-- Ray Slater. July 1, 2003. http://snipurl.com/6ngc

"Ray" > wrote in message
...
>
> "usual suspect" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Old Coot Ray wrote:
> > >><...>
> > >>
> > >>>First, can you find a timeline of Dione Lucas' employment in Hamburg
to
> > >>>determine when she cooked for Hitler?
> > >
> > > No, neither can you.
> >
> > That would be the first step to discrediting the claim that Hitler was a
> > vegetarian, Ray. If she cooked squab for him in 1938 or 1939, then he
was
> not a
> > vegetarian. If she cooked squab for him before 1937, when Hitler
> reportedly
> > began his transition to a vegetarian diet (not to mention a vegetarian
> > pseudophilosphy), then it's quite possible he was right. You're
dismissing
> > things based on incomplete information. I'm basing my opinion on (a)
> testimony
> > of post-1937 eyewitnesses, (b) recorded conversations with Hitler, and
(c)
> the
> > view of apparently all but one historian.
> >
> > With respect to (b), please review my link again. Those aren't
recollected
> > informal discussions, they were recorded contemporaneously.
> >
> > From the publisher: On Martin Bormann's instructions, the secret
> > conversations at Hitler's headquarters, from July 1941 to November 1944,
> > were all recorded for posterity.
> > http://www.geocities.com/hitlerwasavegetarian/
> >
> > > Second, did you go veg full stop,
> > >>>Raymond? Do most people? No, they usually go through a weaning
process.
> > >>>Even after weaning, they g
> > >>
> > >>Finishing up (phone):
> > >
> > > Wrong number, but do carry on
> >
> > It was the right number, just the wrong time for me (but not for the
> caller).
> >
> > >>Even after weaning, they often go through yo-yo splurges in which meat
> is
> > > again
> > >>consumed. Most people don't go vegetarian cold turkey. Even the
> > > information from
> > >>PETA and other sources recommends a gradual transition.
> > >
> > > I did go veg full stop.
> >
> > Congratulations.
> >
> > > Absolutely no problem, and it was a damn sight harder thirty odd years
> ago.
> > >
> > > But that is of no importance.
> >
> > Not as far as you're concerned, but what about Hitler?
> >
> > > The point is that you have stated that Hitler was a vegetarian, bad
> move.
> >
> > On what grounds?
> >
> > > You can find nothing to support your claim other than the reported
words
> > > from Hitler's own mouth. Even then you fail to accept the conclusion.
> >
> > That was not the conclusion. That was part of the FAQ. There is a
section
> called
> > "Closing Thoughts" on that page. It doesn't leave the issue hanging as
you
> would
> > have others believe:
> > Closing Thoughts
>
> "Closing thoughts", sounds like a conclusion to me.
> >
> > "One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to form an idea
> > of the shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one thing
> > I can predict to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be
> > vegetarian."
> > - Adolf Hitler. November 11, 1941. Section 66, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
> >
> > There is more than enough factual evidence -- regarding human health,
> > world hunger, animal welfare, the environment, and economics -- to
> > easily demonstrate that a vegetarian diet is the optimum diet for
> > humankind, now more than ever. It was the one thing that Hitler actually
> > had right! But, don't let the surprising fact of his admirable
> > vegetarianism distract you from the horrible truth about Hitler. There
> > can be no denying nor defending his monstrous crimes against humanity.
> >
> > > Ask yourself, was Hitler a person you could trust to speak the truth?
> You
> > > have, your entire assertion is based on what he supposedly said.
> (Hitler's
> > > Table Talk).
> >
> > Wrong, I'm basing my opinion on (a) testimony of post-1937 eyewitnesses,
> (b)
> > recorded conversations with Hitler, and (c) the view of apparently all
but
> one
> > historian.
> >
> > > Simple fact:-
> > >
> > > You associated Hitler with vegetarianism in order to discredit the
> latter.
> >
> > Wrong. Vegetarianism is an issue which stands or falls on its own merit.
I
> > pointed to authoritarianism of veg-ns and animal rights supporters, and
I
> noted
> > the Nazis enacting the most comprehensive AR laws at the time. If you
have
> a
> > bone to pick, pick it with Hitler himself, Traudl Junge, Alan Bullock,
Ian
> > Kershaw, John Toland, and others.
> >
> > > You failed because you can ofer no concrete evidence.
>
> <siippage restored later>
> >
> >[ I've provided sufficient evidence that supports my opinion that Hitler
> was a
> > vegetarian, or at the very least what is today called "flexitarian" --
> basically
> > a vegetarian who occasionally eats meat.]
>
>
> >
> > > Clearly you should not
> > > have made the claim because nobody believes a Vegan with egg on his
> face.
> >
> > I am not the one making the claim. I just happen to think it has more
> validity
> > than the pro-vegetarian groups who seek to distance themselves from
> Hitler.
> > Historians Alan Bullock, Ian Kershaw, and John Toland are indisputably
> > the three most highly acclaimed Hitler biographers. Each of their
> > extensive Hitler biographies was written after Robert Payne had
> > published his speculative denial of Hitler's vegetarianism. Neither
> > Bullock, Kershaw, nor Toland gave any credence to Payne's unfounded
> > theory. On the contrary, all three concluded that Hitler became a
> > vegetarian.
> >
> > The irony of all of this, Ray, and I find it all hilarious, is that you
> would
> > have agreed ONE-HUNDRED PERCENT with him if I'd pasted in his quotes
> without
> > citing who said it. You'd wet your pants with excitement. You'd be on
the
> > bandwagon. You'd be such a yes-man than you'd not even say "know" for
fear
> of
> > being misunderstood. You'd want him to run in your constituency,
> especially when
> > you learned of his views on ethnic minorities. And you know that, too.
> >
> > > [END]
> >
> > You'll reply. You can't keep your old yapper shut long enough.
>
> Dead right,
>
> You have proved that you should not have made the original posting. Even
> Dutch will not agree with you!
>
> You have nothing to substainiate your foolish claim, the only thing you
have
> proved is that you are a seriously Bad, Bad, LOSER.
>
> You have placed your own knackers in the rat trap, so don't blame me
because
> it hurts. LOSER.
>
> > http://www.veg-world.com/articles/historical.htm
>
> >[ I've provided sufficient evidence that supports my opinion that Hitler
> was a
> > vegetarian, or at the very least what is today called "flexitarian" --
> basically
> > a vegetarian who occasionally eats meat.] ---usual suspect
>
> You have proved that Hitler was a meat eating vegetarian:-)
>
> I'll settle for that.

sorry suspect-I agree with Ray- Hitler was a meat eating person who was
mostly vegetarian-in his early life he was ate tons of meat...Like when he
wrote Mein Kampf-regardless he was a very sick wacko.

While it is true that Hitler's doctors put him on a vegetarian diet to cure
him of flatulence and a chronic stomach disorder, his biographers such as
Albert Speer, Robert Payne, John Toland, et al, have attested to his liking
for ham sausages and other cured meats. Even Spencer says that Hitler was a
vegetarian from only 1931 on: "It would be true to say that up to 1931, he
preferred a vegetarian diet, but on some occasions would deviate from it."
He committed suicide in the bunker when he was 56 in 1945; that would have
given him 14 years as a vegetarian, but we have the testimony to the
contrary of the woman chef who was his personal cook in Hamburg during the
late 1930s - Dione Lucas. In her "Gourmet Cooking School Cookbook," she
records that his favorite dish - the one that he customarily requested - was
stuffed squab (pigeon). "I do not mean to spoil your appetite for stuffed
squab, but you might be interested to know that it was a great favorite with
Mr. Hitler, who dined in the hotel often."


>
>

Michael Balarama wrote:
<...>
> sorry suspect-I agree with Ray- Hitler was a meat eating person who was
> mostly vegetarian-in his early life he was ate tons of meat...

That begs a few simple (and respectful) questions.

1. Are you vegetarian?
2. How old were you when you last ate meat?
3. What's the time period during which one must abstain from meat 100% before
one is even to be considered a vegetarian?

I didn't realize there were cut-offs, like if you abstained from meat for 10-15
years you weren't yet vegetarian. I also didn't realize one is judged solely on
what one ate "in his early life" as opposed to what he ate predominantly in the
time period in question. Under that rule, most American and British vegetarians
aren't vegetarians -- nevermind those who ever fall off the bandwagon in a
moment of temptation.

> Like when he
> wrote Mein Kampf-regardless he was a very sick wacko.

That isn't the issue here. During the time period in question, from 1937 to his
death, he did much worse by actually committing atrocities (rather than writing)
and speeding up the Final Solution. The pen is not always mightier than the
sword (or the gas chamber).

> While it is true that Hitler's doctors put him on a vegetarian diet to cure
> him of flatulence and a chronic stomach disorder, his biographers such as
> Albert Speer, Robert Payne, John Toland, et al,

Payne is the only one of those historians who speculated that Hitler never
"went" vegetarian. See below for citation.

> have attested to his liking for ham sausages and other cured meats.

If "liking for" ham, sausages, and other meats is the standard, how many veg-ns
are really veg-n? How many times have I asked people in AFV about how sincere
they can be about detesting animal flesh while longing for recipes for meat
substitutes and for such fake meat products that have proliferated in even
mainstream grocery stores?

> Even Spencer says that Hitler was a
> vegetarian from only 1931 on: "It would be true to say that up to 1931, he
> preferred a vegetarian diet, but on some occasions would deviate from it."

How many veg-ns lapse and occasionally eat something non-veg-n? I don't think
lapses define people -- those are deviations from norms. What was Hitler's norm
at the time period in question?

Traudl Junge was just 22-years-old when Hitler selected the slim blonde
from a pool of hundreds of young applicants to become one of his
secretaries, in December 1942. As Soviet troops began their advance on
Berlin in April 1945, Mrs. Junge - then Miss Humps - followed her boss
into the relative safety of the bunker beneath the chancellery. It was
here on 28 April, as the bunker shook with each explosion outside, she
took down what was to be the final document of the Third Reich, Hitler's
last will and testament. Two days later, Hitler and his newly wed, Eva
Braun, committed suicide.

"I admit, I was fascinated by Adolf Hitler. He was a pleasant boss and a
fatherly friend. I deliberately ignored all the warning voices inside me
and enjoyed the time by his side almost until the bitter end. … It
wasn't what he said, but the way he said things and how he did things."

Such things included his modest appetite, and the way he ate only side
dishes - *ALWAYS AVOIDING MEAT*. [my emphasis]

His Austrian cook Kruemel believed that life without meat was not worth
living, and would often try to sneak a little animal broth or fat into
the meal.

"Mostly the Fuhrer would notice the attempt at deception, would get very
annoyed and then get tummy ache. At the end he would only let Kruemel
cook him clear soup and mashed potato."
http://www.geocities.com/hitlerwasavegetarian/

From the same link:
Historians Alan Bullock, Ian Kershaw, and John Toland are indisputably
the three most highly acclaimed Hitler biographers. Each of their
extensive Hitler biographies was written after Robert Payne had
published his speculative denial of Hitler’s vegetarianism. Neither
Bullock, Kershaw, nor Toland gave any credence to Payne's unfounded
theory. On the contrary, all three concluded that Hitler became a
vegetarian.

> He committed suicide in the bunker when he was 56 in 1945; that would have
> given him 14 years as a vegetarian,

What's the cut off date? I'm curious if I'm vegetarian since I ate a lot of meat
as a child, abstained from it for a few years, gradually ate more meat, and then
abstained again. Do I get credit for "time served" or will I ever get to join
the club?

> but we have the testimony to the
> contrary of the woman chef who was his personal cook in Hamburg during the
> late 1930s - Dione Lucas.

If you read the start of the thread, I addressed that and asked Raymond if he
knew what years. The quotes from Hitler used to demonstrate his affinity with
vegetarianism are from the 1940s. So we're back to, How long must one abstain
from meat to be considered a vegetarian?

> In her "Gourmet Cooking School Cookbook," she
> records that his favorite dish - the one that he customarily requested - was
> stuffed squab (pigeon). "I do not mean to spoil your appetite for stuffed
> squab, but you might be interested to know that it was a great favorite with
> Mr. Hitler, who dined in the hotel often."

All the quotes are from a subsequent period of Hitler's life (1940s). That means
after he ate Lucas' squab.

"One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to form an idea of the
shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one thing I can predict
to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian."
- Adolf Hitler. November 11, 1941. Section 66, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"If I offer a child the choice between a pear and a piece of meat, he'll quickly
choose the pear. That's his atavistic instinct speaking."
- Adolf Hitler. December 28, 1941. Section 81, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"The only thing of which I shall be incapable is to share the sheiks' mutton
with them. I'm a vegetarian, and they must spare me from their meat."
- Adolf Hitler. January 12, 1942. Section 105, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"At the time when I ate meat, I used to sweat a lot. I used to drink four pots
of beer and six bottles of water during a meeting. … When I became a vegetarian,
a mouthful of water was enough."
- Adolf Hitler. January 22, 1942. Section 117, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"When you offer a child the choice of a piece of meat, an apple, or a cake, it's
never the meat that he chooses. There's an ancestral instinct there."
- Adolf Hitler. January 22, 1942. Section 117, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"One has only to keep one's eyes open to notice what an extraordinary antipathy
young children have to meat."
- Adolf Hitler. April 25, 1942. Section 198, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"When I later gave up eating meat, I immediately began to perspire much less,
and within a fortnight to perspire hardly at all. My thirst, too, decreased
considerably, and an occasional sip of water was all I required. Vegetarian
diet, therefore, has some obvious advantages."
- Adolf Hitler. July 8, 1942. Section 256, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"I am no admirer of the poacher, particularly as I am a vegetarian."
- Adolf Hitler. August 20, 1942. Section 293, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

Source: HITLER'S TABLE TALK: 1941-1944. Enigma Books. Available at Amazon and at
Barnes And Noble.

Your argument comes down to how long one must abstain (100%) from meat before
one is a vegetarian. Be careful in defining the term lest you disqualify even
yourself as one.

PS: What in the world is wrong with the Astros? A four-game sweep in Cincy? Geez.

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> Michael Balarama wrote:
> <...>
> > sorry suspect-I agree with Ray- Hitler was a meat eating person who was
> > mostly vegetarian-in his early life he was ate tons of meat...
>
> That begs a few simple (and respectful) questions.
>
> 1. Are you vegetarian?
> 2. How old were you when you last ate meat?
> 3. What's the time period during which one must abstain from meat 100%
before
> one is even to be considered a vegetarian?
>
> I didn't realize there were cut-offs, like if you abstained from meat for
10-15
> years you weren't yet vegetarian. I also didn't realize one is judged
solely on
> what one ate "in his early life" as opposed to what he ate predominantly
in the
> time period in question. Under that rule, most American and British
vegetarians
> aren't vegetarians -- nevermind those who ever fall off the bandwagon in a
> moment of temptation.
>
> > Like when he
> > wrote Mein Kampf-regardless he was a very sick wacko.
>
> That isn't the issue here. During the time period in question, from 1937
to his
> death, he did much worse by actually committing atrocities (rather than
writing)
> and speeding up the Final Solution. The pen is not always mightier than
the
> sword (or the gas chamber).
>
> > While it is true that Hitler's doctors put him on a vegetarian diet to
cure
> > him of flatulence and a chronic stomach disorder, his biographers such
as
> > Albert Speer, Robert Payne, John Toland, et al,
>
> Payne is the only one of those historians who speculated that Hitler never
> "went" vegetarian. See below for citation.
>
> > have attested to his liking for ham sausages and other cured meats.
>
> If "liking for" ham, sausages, and other meats is the standard, how many
veg-ns
> are really veg-n? How many times have I asked people in AFV about how
sincere
> they can be about detesting animal flesh while longing for recipes for
meat
> substitutes and for such fake meat products that have proliferated in even
> mainstream grocery stores?
>
> > Even Spencer says that Hitler was a
> > vegetarian from only 1931 on: "It would be true to say that up to 1931,
he
> > preferred a vegetarian diet, but on some occasions would deviate from
it."
>
> How many veg-ns lapse and occasionally eat something non-veg-n? I don't
think
> lapses define people -- those are deviations from norms. What was Hitler's
norm
> at the time period in question?
>
> Traudl Junge was just 22-years-old when Hitler selected the slim blonde
> from a pool of hundreds of young applicants to become one of his
> secretaries, in December 1942. As Soviet troops began their advance on
> Berlin in April 1945, Mrs. Junge - then Miss Humps - followed her boss
> into the relative safety of the bunker beneath the chancellery. It was
> here on 28 April, as the bunker shook with each explosion outside, she
> took down what was to be the final document of the Third Reich, Hitler's
> last will and testament. Two days later, Hitler and his newly wed, Eva
> Braun, committed suicide.
>
> "I admit, I was fascinated by Adolf Hitler. He was a pleasant boss and a
> fatherly friend. I deliberately ignored all the warning voices inside me
> and enjoyed the time by his side almost until the bitter end. … It
> wasn't what he said, but the way he said things and how he did things."
>
> Such things included his modest appetite, and the way he ate only side
> dishes - *ALWAYS AVOIDING MEAT*. [my emphasis]
>
> His Austrian cook Kruemel believed that life without meat was not worth
> living, and would often try to sneak a little animal broth or fat into
> the meal.
>
> "Mostly the Fuhrer would notice the attempt at deception, would get very
> annoyed and then get tummy ache. At the end he would only let Kruemel
> cook him clear soup and mashed potato."
> http://www.geocities.com/hitlerwasavegetarian/
>
> From the same link:
> Historians Alan Bullock, Ian Kershaw, and John Toland are indisputably
> the three most highly acclaimed Hitler biographers. Each of their
> extensive Hitler biographies was written after Robert Payne had
> published his speculative denial of Hitler’s vegetarianism. Neither
> Bullock, Kershaw, nor Toland gave any credence to Payne's unfounded
> theory. On the contrary, all three concluded that Hitler became a
> vegetarian.
>
> > He committed suicide in the bunker when he was 56 in 1945; that would
have
> > given him 14 years as a vegetarian,
>
> What's the cut off date? I'm curious if I'm vegetarian since I ate a lot
of meat
> as a child, abstained from it for a few years, gradually ate more meat,
and then
> abstained again. Do I get credit for "time served" or will I ever get to
join
> the club?
>
> > but we have the testimony to the
> > contrary of the woman chef who was his personal cook in Hamburg during
the
> > late 1930s - Dione Lucas.
>
> If you read the start of the thread, I addressed that and asked Raymond if
he
> knew what years. The quotes from Hitler used to demonstrate his affinity
with
> vegetarianism are from the 1940s. So we're back to, How long must one
abstain
> from meat to be considered a vegetarian?
>
> > In her "Gourmet Cooking School Cookbook," she
> > records that his favorite dish - the one that he customarily requested -
was
> > stuffed squab (pigeon). "I do not mean to spoil your appetite for
stuffed
> > squab, but you might be interested to know that it was a great favorite
with
> > Mr. Hitler, who dined in the hotel often."
>
> All the quotes are from a subsequent period of Hitler's life (1940s). That
means
> after he ate Lucas' squab.
>
> "One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to form an idea of
the
> shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one thing I can
predict
> to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian."
> - Adolf Hitler. November 11, 1941. Section 66, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
>
> "If I offer a child the choice between a pear and a piece of meat, he'll
quickly
> choose the pear. That's his atavistic instinct speaking."
> - Adolf Hitler. December 28, 1941. Section 81, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
>
> "The only thing of which I shall be incapable is to share the sheiks'
mutton
> with them. I'm a vegetarian, and they must spare me from their meat."
> - Adolf Hitler. January 12, 1942. Section 105, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
>
> "At the time when I ate meat, I used to sweat a lot. I used to drink four
pots
> of beer and six bottles of water during a meeting. … When I became a
vegetarian,
> a mouthful of water was enough."
> - Adolf Hitler. January 22, 1942. Section 117, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
>
> "When you offer a child the choice of a piece of meat, an apple, or a
cake, it's
> never the meat that he chooses. There's an ancestral instinct there."
> - Adolf Hitler. January 22, 1942. Section 117, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
>
> "One has only to keep one's eyes open to notice what an extraordinary
antipathy
> young children have to meat."
> - Adolf Hitler. April 25, 1942. Section 198, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
>
> "When I later gave up eating meat, I immediately began to perspire much
less,
> and within a fortnight to perspire hardly at all. My thirst, too,
decreased
> considerably, and an occasional sip of water was all I required.
Vegetarian
> diet, therefore, has some obvious advantages."
> - Adolf Hitler. July 8, 1942. Section 256, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
>
> "I am no admirer of the poacher, particularly as I am a vegetarian."
> - Adolf Hitler. August 20, 1942. Section 293, HITLER'S TABLE TALK
>
> Source: HITLER'S TABLE TALK: 1941-1944. Enigma Books. Available at Amazon
and at
> Barnes And Noble.
>
> Your argument comes down to how long one must abstain (100%) from meat
before
> one is a vegetarian. Be careful in defining the term lest you disqualify
even
> yourself as one.
As ex legal person-all your quotes about Hitler have to be verified-that
means another source much say subatanially the same thing or they would not
be admissible in court-just hearsay...personally-I don't like to give Hitler
vegetarian credit- or other bad people-I guess like Stalin and bin
Laden -they however are meat heads...I would rather hear talk about
musicians and stars of vegetarian persuasion.
>
> PS: What in the world is wrong with the Astros? A four-game sweep in
Cincy? Geez.
I guess they were born to lose....they are fun to watch on TV ...that
Clemens is a loose cannon...ask Piazza

Michael Balarama wrote:
<...>
> As ex legal person-all your quotes about Hitler have to be verified-that
> means another source much say subatanially the same thing or they would not
> be admissible in court-just hearsay...

Source: HITLER'S TABLE TALK: 1941-1944. Enigma Books.

From my link, if you'd bothered reading it:
From the publisher: On Martin Bormann's instructions, the secret
conversations at Hitler's headquarters, from July 1941 to November 1944,
were all recorded for posterity.

Such recordings do not fall under hearsay rules, even through second-person
parties. Recordings, as you know, are an exception to the hearsay rule and are
allowed to be introduced under several scenarios, such as when the person who
made the recorded statement is dead or otherwise incapicitated or when
recordings were made by a second-person (such as a police officer) and are used
to refresh his or her memory.

Continuing with the above...

This extraordinary document is the result. In the relaxed atmosphere of his
inner circle, Hitler talked freely about his aims, his early life,
his plans for world conquest, and a new German empire. … This book is
he most significant record of Hitler's mind and character in existence.
… It must be read, to understand the inner workings of a mind capable
of genocide. A rare and revealing look into a repellent mind.

"This book remains the only complete and consecutive presentation of an
important historical document…the official record of Hitler's 'table
talk' as uttered at the height of his success. It is surely necessary
reading for students of Nazism and the Second World War." - Hugh
Trevor-Roper. Oxford, Spring 2000.
[Hugh Trevor-Roper worked for British Intelligence during the Second
World War. His official investigation into Hitler's death was later
published as THE LAST DAYS OF HITLER.]

> personally-I don't like to give Hitler
> vegetarian credit- or other bad people-

Does that stem from the actual evidence in front of you or is it just your
repulsion of the individual(s) in question?

> I guess like Stalin and bin
> Laden -they however are meat heads...

I appreciate your reasons for vegetarianism, but those reasons are not
universally shared or held. What does one's diet have to do with behavior? Many
peace activists eat meat. Many great humanitarians eat meat. On the flip side,
vegetarians are just as capable as anyone else of committing atrocious acts
against individuals or entire groups of people. That includes vegan parents like
the Swintons who nearly starved their children to death, and it includes
vegetarian Hindus in India who persecute Christians; see the following link if
you're not aware of that.
http://www.persecution.org/news/In_D...g_news_202.htm

> I would rather hear talk about
> musicians and stars of vegetarian persuasion.

Why? What do they know about nutrition, longevity, etc.? If anything, musicians
are the last people to trust about lifestyle issues.

http://www.pathguy.com/rockstar/rockstar.htm

>>PS: What in the world is wrong with the Astros? A four-game sweep in
> Cincy? Geez.

> I guess they were born to lose....they are fun to watch on TV ...that
> Clemens is a loose cannon...ask Piazza

Their rallies *are* fun to watch. It's all the coming up short after nine
innings or blowing leads late in games that worries me.

"Ray" > wrote in message
...
> In a recent thread Usual Suspect made the assertion that Adolph Hitler was
a
> vegetarian.

Maybe "usual suspect" IS Adolf Hitler, or, the result of some kind of weird
Nazi experiment?

That could explain a lot.

John C

"John Coleman" > wrote in message
news:Rdvtc.145$0e2.75@newsfe4-gui...
>
> "Ray" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In a recent thread Usual Suspect made the assertion that Adolph Hitler
was
> a
> > vegetarian.
>
> Maybe "usual suspect" IS Adolf Hitler, or, the result of some kind of
weird
> Nazi experiment?
>
> That could explain a lot.
=====================
How's that explain your ignorance and stupidity?


>
> John C
>
>

Fruity Poofter wrote:
>>In a recent thread Usual Suspect made the assertion that Adolph Hitler was
> a
>>vegetarian.
>
> Maybe "usual suspect" IS Adolf Hitler,

Adolf Hitler committed suicide on 30 April 1945.
http://history1900s.about.com/librar...t/blhitler.htm

> or, the result of some kind of weird
> Nazi experiment?

The Nazis' demise pre-dated my birth by a matter of decades. Their demise
occurred even before my mother's birth. Idiot.

> That could explain a lot.

Time to invoke Godwin.

Etter>
> How's that explain your ignorance and stupidity?

Why don't you learn to write proper English before calling others ignorant
Rick?

John C

"John Coleman" > wrote in message
news:cbqvc.71$An.7@newsfe6-win...
> Etter>
> > How's that explain your ignorance and stupidity?
>
> Why don't you learn to write proper English before calling others ignorant
> Rick?
>

I see you still have nothing, killer. Having to resort to
net-spell/grammar checker just proves your lack, again.