I am vegetarian, actually vegan, and me and my fiancee who's also vegan will be
going together. I know with cruises just like with airlines you can call ahead
to request those meals. Of course I'll be careful to explain what it is.
Whenever I eat out I call ahead often to ask if they have vegetarian options
and they start naming all the seafood and chicken dishes. Anyway, I know
likely I can do this with any cruise but am looking at different cruise lines,
Royal Caribbean, Holland America, etc. and am wondering if there are certain
ones that cater better to vegetarians and vegans.

Markwco34 wrote:

> I am vegetarian, actually vegan, and me and my fiancee who's also vegan will be
> going together. I know with cruises just like with airlines you can call ahead
> to request those meals. Of course I'll be careful to explain what it is.

Damn right you will. It's a marginal eating disorder. Cruise lines hire chefs
who carefully prepare sumptuous foods, not anal retentives who practice the
avoidance of minute animal parts.

> Whenever I eat out I call ahead often to ask if they have vegetarian options
> and they start naming all the seafood and chicken dishes.

Stop eating out if that's a problem for you.

> Anyway, I know
> likely I can do this with any cruise but am looking at different cruise lines,
> Royal Caribbean, Holland America, etc. and am wondering if there are certain
> ones that cater better to vegetarians and vegans.

They all cater to *normal* human populations, but they're in the hospitality
business and will even try to accomodate those who follow marginalized and
alternative lifestyles. They have more experience with legitimate dietary
restrictions, like Kosher, low-sodium, and diabetic diets. Don't expect
perfection from others who don't share your peculiar views about animal parts
and food.

That said, look at the websites of the lines you're considering. One cruise site
I looked at noted:
The galley has special areas where chefs prepare meals for children and
for passengers who require special diets, an option that makes cruising
the best way to travel for those with special needs.

Remember, you don't have special NEEDS, just special DESIRES. That article
continued by pointing out the stores for a typical cruise.
The quantity of food consumed every week is staggering. On our cruise,
1,700 lobsters were delivered to the ship for Wednesday night alone. On
an average fourteen-day cruise, passengers will consume:
24,236 pounds of beef
5,040 pounds of lamb
7,216 pounds of pork
4,600 pounds of veal
10,211 pounds of chicken
3,156 pounds of turkey
13,851 pounds of fish
350 pounds of crab
25,736 pounds of fresh vegetables
15,150 pounds of potatoes
20,002 pounds of fresh fruit
3,260 gallons of milk
600 gallons of ice cream
9,235 dozen eggs
120 pounds of herbs and spices
3,400 bottles of assorted wines
10,100 bottles/cans of beer

See:
http://www.cruisemates.com/articles/...-infinity2.cfm

Holland America's site specifically says:
Special diets and meals, such as Kosher**, Passover Seder dinner,
gluten-free, salt-free, fat-free, baby food, diabetic and other special
dietary needs can be accommodated only if we are notified in advance.

If you don't get it spelled out in your contract, you better not expect it on
your cruise. And like I said before, you're better off not expecting perfection
unless you cook it yourself. If that bothers you or your girlfriend, make other
plans. If you bitched about my food on my boat, you'd be swimming home.

On Fri, 07 May 2004 14:33:21 GMT, usual suspect > wrote:

>They have more experience with legitimate dietary
>restrictions, like Kosher

Explain why Kosher is a legitimate dietary restriction
while veganism isn't.

>That said, look at the websites of the lines you're considering. One cruise site
>I looked at noted:
> The galley has special areas where chefs prepare meals for children and
> for passengers who require special diets, an option that makes cruising
> the best way to travel for those with special needs.
>
>Remember, you don't have special NEEDS, just special DESIRES.

Then, why is Kosher a special NEED? And then explain
why the same rule or explanation cannot be applied to
veganism.

ipse dixit wrote:

Please note your snips, Derek.

>>They have more experience with legitimate dietary
>>restrictions, like Kosher
>
> Explain why Kosher is a legitimate dietary restriction
> while veganism isn't.

Kosher is part of a valid religion called Judaism, into which people are born.
Veganism is a pseudo-religion, and the decision to go vegan has nothing to do
with one's relationship with God.

>>That said, look at the websites of the lines you're considering. One cruise site
>>I looked at noted:
>> The galley has special areas where chefs prepare meals for children and
>> for passengers who require special diets, an option that makes cruising
>> the best way to travel for those with special needs.
>>
>>Remember, you don't have special NEEDS, just special DESIRES.
>
> Then, why is Kosher a special NEED?

Did I say Kosher is a need?

> And then explain
> why the same rule or explanation cannot be applied to
> veganism.

Veganism is a lifestyle choice, not a religious command nor a health-related
issue like diabetes. Cruise lines are free to cater to vegans if they think
enough vegans exist to niche market to them. The market for vegetarian, though,
is a bit broader and the cruise lines have vegetarian menus to accomodate them.
The OP will likely find suitable items on buffets and menus, but he and his
girlfriend should not expect perfection in keeping their food free from all
animal parts on a cruise.

On Fri, 07 May 2004 15:21:06 GMT, usual suspect > wrote:

>ipse dixit wrote:
>
>Please note your snips, Derek.
>
>>>They have more experience with legitimate dietary
>>>restrictions, like Kosher
>>
>> Explain why Kosher is a legitimate dietary restriction
>> while veganism isn't.
>
>Kosher is part of a valid religion called Judaism, into which people are born.
>Veganism is a pseudo-religion, and the decision to go vegan has nothing to do
>with one's relationship with God.

Then, according to you, a man's religion is legitimate
justification for his dietary restrictions iff you consider
his religion to be a 'valid' religion.

>>>That said, look at the websites of the lines you're considering. One cruise site
>>>I looked at noted:
>>> The galley has special areas where chefs prepare meals for children and
>>> for passengers who require special diets, an option that makes cruising
>>> the best way to travel for those with special needs.
>>>
>>>Remember, you don't have special NEEDS, just special DESIRES.
>>
>> Then, why is Kosher a special NEED?
>
>Did I say Kosher is a need?

You implied that it was, but if you're willing to concede
that it isn't, then the customer for Kosher meat has only
"special desires", and these special desires aren't needs,
so why attack markwco34 for his special desires while
defending the special desires of others?

>> And then explain
>> why the same rule or explanation cannot be applied to
>> veganism.
>
>Veganism is a lifestyle choice, not a religious command

Then, like Swamp you believe man's diet and the method
of obtaining it by ritual sacrifice is commanded to us from
a God, and that it would be immoral to act against God's
word by eating Haram food.

>nor a health-related issue like diabetes.

For some, veganism is a moral issue because they favour
the humane treatment of animals, which to them means
not killing them for their own benefit. Kosher meat and
vegan fare are similar in that both are encouraged by
moral considerations, so why attack one (veganism) and
not the other?


>Cruise lines are free to cater to vegans if they think
>enough vegans exist to niche market to them. The market for vegetarian, though,
>is a bit broader and the cruise lines have vegetarian menus to accomodate them.
>The OP will likely find suitable items on buffets and menus, but he and his
>girlfriend should not expect perfection in keeping their food free from all
>animal parts on a cruise.

ipse dixit wrote:
>>Please note your snips, Derek.
>>
>>>>They have more experience with legitimate dietary
>>>>restrictions, like Kosher
>>>
>>>Explain why Kosher is a legitimate dietary restriction
>>>while veganism isn't.
>>
>>Kosher is part of a valid religion called Judaism, into which people are born.
>>Veganism is a pseudo-religion, and the decision to go vegan has nothing to do
>>with one's relationship with God.
>
> Then, according to you, a man's religion is legitimate
> justification for his dietary restrictions iff you consider
> his religion to be a 'valid' religion.

I consider religion valid grounds for dietary restrictions, full stop.

>>>>That said, look at the websites of the lines you're considering. One cruise site
>>>>I looked at noted:
>>>> The galley has special areas where chefs prepare meals for children and
>>>> for passengers who require special diets, an option that makes cruising
>>>> the best way to travel for those with special needs.
>>>>
>>>>Remember, you don't have special NEEDS, just special DESIRES.
>>>
>>>Then, why is Kosher a special NEED?
>>
>>Did I say Kosher is a need?
>
> You implied that it was,

No, you assumed that.

> but if you're willing to concede
> that it isn't, then the customer for Kosher meat has only
> "special desires", and these special desires aren't needs,

I don't consider religious requirements "desires" for those they affect.

> so why attack markwco34 for his special desires while
> defending the special desires of others?

Who attacked anyone? I told him he shouldn't have expectations of perfection
unless he cooks for himself (oh yeah, and that I'd throw him off my boat if he
whined about ingredients).

>>>And then explain
>>>why the same rule or explanation cannot be applied to
>>>veganism.
>>
>>Veganism is a lifestyle choice, not a religious command
>
> Then, like Swamp

Swamp and I are not in legion. I sense he's very annoyed with me from the
late-term abortion threads in tpa/aaev.

> you believe man's diet and the method
> of obtaining it by ritual sacrifice is commanded to us from
> a God,

Does swamp believe that? He's not a theist, is he?

> and that it would be immoral to act against God's
> word by eating Haram food.

The whole issue is a non sequitur, Derek.

>>nor a health-related issue like diabetes.
>
> For some,

No, for none. This has been explained to you repeatedly and with appeals to many
levels of understanding at tpa and aaev. Unfortunately, it's yet to sink it. You
are incorrigible.

> veganism is a moral issue because they favour
> the humane treatment of animals, which to them means
> not killing them for their own benefit.

CDs are for their own benefit. Go ahead, pass the buck.

> Kosher meat and
> vegan fare are similar in that both are encouraged by
> moral considerations,

Kosher is moral?

> so why attack one (veganism) and
> not the other?

I don't know that kosher is inherently moral -- it is predicated on religious
texts and commands, and they rely on a certain appeal to authority rather than
some moral code (other than life is in blood, so the blood must be drained or
salted out of the meat before it's eaten; how, though, do other commands about
shellfish, cooking meat and dairy together, etc., have anything to do with
morality?). I know veganism plainly isn't about morality (quite the contrary),
despite the moral claims made by vegans.

>>Cruise lines are free to cater to vegans if they think
>>enough vegans exist to niche market to them. The market for vegetarian, though,
>>is a bit broader and the cruise lines have vegetarian menus to accomodate them.
>>The OP will likely find suitable items on buffets and menus, but he and his
>>girlfriend should not expect perfection in keeping their food free from all
>>animal parts on a cruise.

"Markwco34" > wrote in message
...
> I am vegetarian, actually vegan, and me and my fiancee who's also vegan
will be
> going together. I know with cruises just like with airlines you can call
ahead
> to request those meals. Of course I'll be careful to explain what it is.
> Whenever I eat out I call ahead often to ask if they have vegetarian
options
> and they start naming all the seafood and chicken dishes. Anyway, I know
> likely I can do this with any cruise but am looking at different cruise
lines,
> Royal Caribbean, Holland America, etc. and am wondering if there are
certain
> ones that cater better to vegetarians and vegans.

==================
So, let's get this straight. You claim to be vegan, yet you have no problem
with going on a cruise that makes the petro-chemical industry happy.
You really think that by just not eating any animal bits while you are on
board will have any real effect on the death and suffering of animals that
you will be causeing by just supporting this kind of activity? So typical
of the vegans here on usenet. You really have no true concern about
animals, it's all about posing.

wowfabgroovy wrote:
>>I am vegetarian, actually vegan, and me and my fiancee who's also vegan will be
>>going together. I know with cruises just like with airlines you can call ahead
>>to request those meals. Of course I'll be careful to explain what it is.
>>Whenever I eat out I call ahead often to ask if they have vegetarian options
>>and they start naming all the seafood and chicken dishes. Anyway, I know
>>likely I can do this with any cruise but am looking at different cruise lines,
>>Royal Caribbean, Holland America, etc. and am wondering if there are certain
>>ones that cater better to vegetarians and vegans.
>
> you probably won't have any trouble with vegetarian menus on a cruise.

Vegetarian won't be a problem. Vegan will be.

> it's been quite trendy since probably the late 80s or so, to the point
> where even companies who make most of their profits from the
> exploitation of animals

Did you see the list of foods on a 14-day Alaskan cruise?

The quantity of food consumed every week is staggering. On our cruise,
1,700 lobsters were delivered to the ship for Wednesday night alone. On
an average fourteen-day cruise, passengers will consume:
24,236 pounds of beef
5,040 pounds of lamb
7,216 pounds of pork
4,600 pounds of veal
10,211 pounds of chicken
3,156 pounds of turkey
13,851 pounds of fish
350 pounds of crab
25,736 pounds of fresh vegetables
15,150 pounds of potatoes
20,002 pounds of fresh fruit
3,260 gallons of milk
600 gallons of ice cream
9,235 dozen eggs
120 pounds of herbs and spices
3,400 bottles of assorted wines
10,100 bottles/cans of beer
http://www.cruisemates.com/articles/...-infinity2.cfm

> also produce vegetarian food in an attempt to
> compensate for their drop in profits.

What drop in profits? Meat prices are up -- WAY up -- since meat consumption is
on the increase. At best, such niche marketing to veg-ns has only increased
profits: these large companies bought out companies like Boca and Morningstar,
used their connections to acquire soy and other products in larger scale
(reducing product costs), provided them through their more efficient
distribution streams, sold them to a wider variety of supermarkets, etc. The net
result is a larger profit margin off veg-n dopes.

> the days when having a vegetarian menu meant having a salad bar are
> long gone, and vegetarian menus are now quite varied. some, but
> obviously not the majority, of those menu options will also be
> suitable for a vegan diet.

The unique vegetarian selections now offered by the cruise line are in
response to the preferences of an increasing number of passengers who
follow no-meat diets. As with other Celebrity menus, the vegetarian menu
will uphold the high standards that have made dining aboard a Celebrity
Cruise such a lauded experience.

A host of mouth watering Vegetarian entrees include Rice Glass Noodles
with snow peas, green beans and chili, Middle Eastern Casserole of okra,
potato and zucchini, and Sonora Style Fajitas complete with guacamole,
salsa, sour cream and cilantro. Warm Pear Charlotte with Fruit Coulis,
Rice Conde with Caramel Sauce or a Fresh Fruit Salad are only a few of
the scrumptious desserts that round out the evening meal.
http://www.cruise.com/cruise_info/on...celebrity.html

> but i would still recommend you take with you some of your favourite
> food and request it be stored and prepared by the ship's cook for you
> during your cruise.

Why even bother taking a cruise?

> people who work on cruiseliners are there to
> serve you, and they would never risk bad publicity by refusing to feed
> you the way you want to be fed.

How much bad publicity can one *anal retentive vegan* exert on a popular cruise
line whose clientele go for the all-you-can-eat steak and seafood buffets anyway?

rick etter wrote:
<...>
> So, let's get this straight. You claim to be vegan, yet you have no problem
> with going on a cruise that makes the petro-chemical industry happy.

Not only that, but have you seen the stories of cruise ships that run aground
over coral reefs, dump sewage at sea, etc.? The following link reports on
calamities at sea ranging from illnesses to power outages to environmental
damage to detentions to sinkings to groundings to rapes to murders to drug
busts, etc. Cruises sound even more dangerous than my adventure vacations!

http://www.cruisejunkie.com/events.html

> You really think that by just not eating any animal bits while you are on
> board will have any real effect on the death and suffering of animals that
> you will be causeing by just supporting this kind of activity?

Imagine all the sea creatures killed by ships running aground and through all
that pollution. All so this Mark guy can get a piece from his girlfriend.

> So typical
> of the vegans here on usenet. You really have no true concern about
> animals, it's all about posing.

Exactly.

On Fri, 07 May 2004 20:10:34 GMT, usual suspect > wrote:
>ipse dixit wrote:

>>>>>They have more experience with legitimate dietary
>>>>>restrictions, like Kosher
>>>>
>>>>Explain why Kosher is a legitimate dietary restriction
>>>>while veganism isn't.
>>>
>>>Kosher is part of a valid religion called Judaism, into which people are born.
>>>Veganism is a pseudo-religion, and the decision to go vegan has nothing to do
>>>with one's relationship with God.
>>
>> Then, according to you, a man's religion is legitimate
>> justification for his dietary restrictions iff you consider
>> his religion to be a 'valid' religion.
>
>I consider religion valid grounds for dietary restrictions, full stop.

No, it isn't "full stop" because the answer you gave
contained two parts;
1) "Kosher is part of a valid religion"
2) "Veganism is a pseudo-religion"

So it's clear, according to you, that a man's religion is
legitimate justification for his dietary restrictions iff
you consider his religion to be a 'valid' religion.

According to you, "Veganism is a pseudo-religion" and
so has no legitimate grounds for any dietary restrictions
in the way Kosher food has, yet in the past you've insisted
Genesis 1:29-30 gives Christians and Jews an equal stake
in their dietary restrictions, namely veganism in this instance;

"Genesis 1:29-30 (New King James Version) --
And God said, "See, I have given you every herb
that yields seed which is on the face of all the
earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to
you it shall be for food. Also, to every beast of the
earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything
that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I
have given every green herb for food"; and it was
so.

So Jews and Christians have as legitimate a stake to
veganism and vegetarianism as any other religion.
Usual Suspect http://tinyurl.com/23vre

You clearly do or did think veganism is a legitimate
dietary restriction, so why are you now that claiming
it isn't?
[..]
>> so why attack markwco34 for his special desires while
>> defending the special desires of others?
>
>Who attacked anyone?

You attacked markwco34 and his fiancee for being
analy retentive and for having an eating disorder while
at the same time insisting a customer for Kosher food
has a legitimate justification for his dietary restrictions.
Here's his opening paragraph and your attacking reply;

[start markwco34]
> I am vegetarian, actually vegan, and me and my fiancee who's also vegan will be
> going together. I know with cruises just like with airlines you can call ahead
> to request those meals. Of course I'll be careful to explain what it is.
[You]
Damn right you will. It's a marginal eating disorder. Cruise lines hire chefs
who carefully prepare sumptuous foods, not anal retentives who practice the
avoidance of minute animal parts
[end]

Why did you attack him with personal insults for
merely wanting to *carefully" clarify his legitimate
dietary restrictions?
[..]
>>>>And then explain
>>>>why the same rule or explanation cannot be applied to
>>>>veganism.
>>>
>>>Veganism is a lifestyle choice, not a religious command
>>
>> Then, like Swamp
>
>Swamp and I are not in legion. I sense he's very annoyed with me from the
>late-term abortion threads in tpa/aaev.

Nevertheless, Like Swamp you believe man's diet
and the method of obtaining it by ritual sacrifice is
commanded to us from a God, and that it would be
immoral to act against God's word by eating Haram
food.

>> you believe man's diet and the method
>> of obtaining it by ritual sacrifice is commanded to us from
>> a God,
>
>Does swamp believe that?

He believes in a God that compels him to pay
homage to "Her" by eating the meat from "Her"
animals, and he said he'll stand by that. Here's
a small part of a discussion where he admits
this belief.

[start me]
> > You believe that your understanding
> > of this Goddess you metaphorically call 'Ma Nature'
> > compels you pay homage to 'her' by eating meat,
> > and your own words are crystal clear in showing
> > this belief;
> > "Show Her a little more respect and have a hamburger
> > fer cryin' out loud."
> > Swamp. Date: 2003-06-29
>
> ok, I'll stand by that.
> Swamp
[end]
http://tinyurl.com/24bae

The reason for this is because Swamp's God, doesn't
like my vegan diet.
"She's merely the result of unnumerable random
events, and She doesn't like your diet."
http://tinyurl.com/24bae

[..]
>> and that it would be immoral to act against God's
>> word by eating Haram food.
>
>The whole issue is a non sequitur, Derek.

The issue is that according to you, a man's religion
is legitimate justification for his dietary restrictions
iff you consider his religion to be a 'valid' religion.
When we look at your past quote;

So Jews and Christians have as legitimate a stake to
veganism and vegetarianism as any other religion."
Usual Suspect http://tinyurl.com/23vre

it's clear to see that you once believed vegans have
just a legitimate stake in their dietary restrictions as
others, but you NOW claim "Veganism is a pseudo-
religion", and that while Kosher is a legitimate dietary
restriction, veganism isn't. You're not being consistent.

>>>nor a health-related issue like diabetes.
>>
>> For some,
>
>No, for none. This has been explained to you repeatedly and with appeals to many
>levels of understanding at tpa and aaev. Unfortunately, it's yet to sink it. You
>are incorrigible.

You cut into my question to write something entirely
unrelated to it. Try answering it without dodging it
by cutting it up and leaving it without the intended
context if you can.

"For some, veganism is a moral issue because they
favour the humane treatment of animals, which to
them means not killing them for their own benefit.
Kosher meat and vegan fare are similar in that both
are encouraged by moral considerations, so why
attack one (veganism) and not the other?"
[..]

"Markwco34" > wrote in message
...
> I am vegetarian, actually vegan, and me and my fiancee who's also vegan
will be
> going together. I know with cruises just like with airlines you can call
ahead
> to request those meals. Of course I'll be careful to explain what it is.
> Whenever I eat out I call ahead often to ask if they have vegetarian
options
> and they start naming all the seafood and chicken dishes. Anyway, I know
> likely I can do this with any cruise but am looking at different cruise
lines,
> Royal Caribbean, Holland America, etc. and am wondering if there are
certain
> ones that cater better to vegetarians and vegans.

found this website about a vegan cruise company. they seem small, like not
one of those massive ships like you'd typically think of, but it could be
really cool:
http://www.vegparadise.com/otherbirds62.html
also, i can't think of it right now, but there's a travel agency out there
that specializes in veg travel arrangements. if you can hunt them down,
i'll bet they could help you out. i'm sure if you google around, you can
find what you're looking for.