Rubystars wrote:

> "Rat & Swan" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>
>>
>>>On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:23:50 +0000 (UTC), "Plug"
>
> > wrote:
>
>>>>I know this is a vegan site, but some of you have veggie friends, so
>
> might
>
>>>>be able to help me with my query. I am tackling a supplier of battery
>
> eggs
>
>>>>in this country (UK) who puts "suitable for vegetarians" on the boxes.
>
> I
>
>>>>believe this is misleading and am speaking with Trading Standards. The
>>>>company respond by claiming most veggies "don't care" whether eggs or
>
> free
>
>>>>range or not.
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>>I disagree; in my opinion, veggies care very much, which is
>>>>why free range eggs are more readily available nowadays - due to
>
> consumer
>
>>>>pressure.
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>I certainly think any ethical vegetarian would care about the way the
>>hens are treated. I don't see eggs themselves as sentient, and
>>if they are unfertilized the issue wouldn't even arise, so I don't
>>see why unfertilized eggs would be an ethical issue in themselves.
>>But certainly, the welfare of the hens would be.
>>
>>Rat
>
>
> There would also be breeding operations going on there if the company
> expected to continue egg production into the future. Another concern would
> be the fate of male chicks.

Does the same principal apply to milk products because most bull calves
end up as veal?

>
> -Rubystars
>
>

"Elmo" > wrote in message
...
> Rubystars wrote:
>
> > "Rat & Swan" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:23:50 +0000 (UTC), "Plug"
> >
> > > wrote:
> >
> >>>>I know this is a vegan site, but some of you have veggie friends, so
> >
> > might
> >
> >>>>be able to help me with my query. I am tackling a supplier of
battery
> >
> > eggs
> >
> >>>>in this country (UK) who puts "suitable for vegetarians" on the boxes.
> >
> > I
> >
> >>>>believe this is misleading and am speaking with Trading Standards.
The
> >>>>company respond by claiming most veggies "don't care" whether eggs or
> >
> > free
> >
> >>>>range or not.
> >>
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>>>I disagree; in my opinion, veggies care very much, which is
> >>>>why free range eggs are more readily available nowadays - due to
> >
> > consumer
> >
> >>>>pressure.
> >>
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>I certainly think any ethical vegetarian would care about the way the
> >>hens are treated. I don't see eggs themselves as sentient, and
> >>if they are unfertilized the issue wouldn't even arise, so I don't
> >>see why unfertilized eggs would be an ethical issue in themselves.
> >>But certainly, the welfare of the hens would be.
> >>
> >>Rat
> >
> >
> > There would also be breeding operations going on there if the company
> > expected to continue egg production into the future. Another concern
would
> > be the fate of male chicks.
>
> Does the same principal apply to milk products because most bull calves
> end up as veal?

check the figures, very little veal eaten in proportion to the amount of
beef

"Elmo" > wrote in message
...
> Rubystars wrote:
>
> > "Rat & Swan" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:23:50 +0000 (UTC), "Plug"
> >
> > > wrote:
> >
> >>>>I know this is a vegan site, but some of you have veggie friends, so
> >
> > might
> >
> >>>>be able to help me with my query. I am tackling a supplier of
battery
> >
> > eggs
> >
> >>>>in this country (UK) who puts "suitable for vegetarians" on the boxes.
> >
> > I
> >
> >>>>believe this is misleading and am speaking with Trading Standards.
The
> >>>>company respond by claiming most veggies "don't care" whether eggs or
> >
> > free
> >
> >>>>range or not.
> >>
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>>>I disagree; in my opinion, veggies care very much, which is
> >>>>why free range eggs are more readily available nowadays - due to
> >
> > consumer
> >
> >>>>pressure.
> >>
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>I certainly think any ethical vegetarian would care about the way the
> >>hens are treated. I don't see eggs themselves as sentient, and
> >>if they are unfertilized the issue wouldn't even arise, so I don't
> >>see why unfertilized eggs would be an ethical issue in themselves.
> >>But certainly, the welfare of the hens would be.
> >>
> >>Rat
> >
> >
> > There would also be breeding operations going on there if the company
> > expected to continue egg production into the future. Another concern
would
> > be the fate of male chicks.
>
> Does the same principal apply to milk products because most bull calves
> end up as veal?

The fate of male calves on dairy farms is also a concern.

-Rubystars

> The fate of male calves on dairy farms is also a concern.
> -Rubystars

The vast majority of dairy bull calves end up being raised for beef, not
veal. For some breeds of dairy cows like Jerseys (the breed of cow we have)
no bull calves end up as veal.
Most of our bull calves are sold in groups of 2 or 3 to people who wish
to raise them for their own eating. Most of these people use rotational
grazing to rais these calves. A small number are raised as breeding bulls.

Kala Thompson
Farmer
Richland Center, Wi




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"Russ Thompson" > wrote in message
...
> > The fate of male calves on dairy farms is also a concern.
> > -Rubystars
>
> The vast majority of dairy bull calves end up being raised for beef, not
> veal. For some breeds of dairy cows like Jerseys (the breed of cow we
have)
> no bull calves end up as veal.
> Most of our bull calves are sold in groups of 2 or 3 to people who
wish
> to raise them for their own eating. Most of these people use rotational
> grazing to rais these calves. A small number are raised as breeding
bulls.
>
> Kala Thompson
> Farmer
> Richland Center, Wi

Ok thanks for the info!

-Rubystars

Elmo wrote:

<snip>
>>> I certainly think any ethical vegetarian would care about the way the
>>> hens are treated. I don't see eggs themselves as sentient, and
>>> if they are unfertilized the issue wouldn't even arise, so I don't
>>> see why unfertilized eggs would be an ethical issue in themselves.
>>> But certainly, the welfare of the hens would be.

>>> Rat

<snip>
> Does the same principal apply to milk products because most bull calves
> end up as veal?

Absolutely. In theory, if a cow were treated as a genuine companion
animal, allowed to pick her own mate (bull), nurse her calf herself,
and remain in the society of her own herd, taking _surplus_ milk
beyond that required by the calf -- as long as the cow was tame
enough that the process did not stress her -- would not, IMO, be a
violation of AR principles, any more than using the same cow's dung
as fertilizer. But such a situation is almost impossible in our
modern world as it exists, and, certainly, is not found in dairy
farms which produce commercial milk products.

Rat

> Absolutely. In theory, if a cow were treated as a genuine companion
> animal, allowed to pick her own mate (bull),

Cows don't pick their own mates. Their wild relitives don't either. In the
wild the bulls fight among themselves and the winner breeds the cows. The
cows don't care who he is and is given the oppertunity will mate with every
bull that attemps to breed them as long as they are in standing heat.
The idea that people force cows to mate with bulls not of their
choosing is a myth as cows make no attempt to prevent ANY bull (or other cow
for that matter) from breeding them.

Kala Thompson
Farmer
Richland Center, Wi




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> Does the same principal apply to milk products because most bull calves
> end up as veal?
> > -Rubystars

"most" bulls calves do not end up as veal. This was true in the past but has
not ben true for some time now.

Kala Thompson
Farmer
Richland Center, Wi




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"Russ Thompson" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> > Does the same principal apply to milk products because most bull calves
> > end up as veal?
> > > -Rubystars
>
> "most" bulls calves do not end up as veal. This was true in the past but
has
> not ben true for some time now.
>
> Kala Thompson
> Farmer
> Richland Center, Wi

I didn't make that statement but I'm glad to know.

-Rubystars

"Russ Thompson" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> > Does the same principal apply to milk products because most bull calves
> > end up as veal?
> > > -Rubystars
>
> "most" bulls calves do not end up as veal. This was true in the past but
has
> not ben true for some time now.

Most bull calves do not end up as veal in the UK or Europe generally

In message >, Russ Thompson
> writes
>
>
>> Does the same principal apply to milk products because most bull calves
>> end up as veal?
>> > -Rubystars
>
>"most" bulls calves do not end up as veal. This was true in the past but has
>not ben true for some time now.
>
>Kala Thompson
>Farmer
>Richland Center, Wi

Sorry to be ignorant, but where is the 'Richland Center, Wi'? Somewhere
in the US?

--
Five Cats
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