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| Tea (rec.drink.tea) Discussion relating to tea, the world's second most consumed beverage (after water), made by infusing or boiling the leaves of the tea plant (C. sinensis or close relatives) in water. |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
Mike Petro > wrote in message >. ..
> Ripon, > > Is this email address valid? I have tried to send you email about that > Yunnan gold bud (A) you asked about but never got a response? Dear Mike: This is not valid anymore. Please re-send the message at Thanks. Ripon Vienna,VA |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
Mike Petro > writes:
> [...] > > The 2 main things that make a Puerh a Puerh are the "base tea" and the > processing. Age and storage only improve upon it. > > 1) The base tea MUST be one of the Yunnan large leaf varieties. I do > not know the specific cultivar names but I will find out. These large > leaf teas are unique to the Yunnan region and are traditionally only > made into puerh or red(black) tea. I have also seen imitations that > used Vietnamese leaf which were then processed in Yunnan. This is not to disagree with you, but as you know there are other legitimate hei chas, e.g. Liu An, that don't use Yunnan leaf of any kind but can be quite good. These teas aren't pretending to be true Puerhs, but they're often confusingly called Puerh. > 2) Processing. If you look at http://www.pu-erh.net/greenpuerh.html > (Production step #5) the withering step in the puerh process is > crucial to its ultimate quality. My Chinese teacher says that TRUE > puerh is Sun-Dried (Blue) rather than using other methods. So this sun drying, because it happens after what you call step 3, heating to stop oxidation, is different from the sun drying of white tea, which allows oxidation. > Sun drying does create some enzymatic (sp) conditions, however they > are all naturally occurring and are not artificially introduced like > in sour dough or yogurt. Since tea is organic matter, moisture is > involved, and the process takes many hours/days, these enzymatic > (sp) conditions occur quite naturally. Some puerhs are withered by > manmade heating systems (dryers) but these produce puerh of lesser > quality than sun dried methods. Sorry, but I find this confusing. I've read that in typical processing of green tea, the purpose of the heating corresponding to your step 3 is to stop oxidation *by killing the enzymes* in the leaves. Are you saying that the heat in step 3 is less intense, or shorter, or what? /Lew --- Lew Perin / http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
Mike Petro > writes:
> [...] > > The 2 main things that make a Puerh a Puerh are the "base tea" and the > processing. Age and storage only improve upon it. > > 1) The base tea MUST be one of the Yunnan large leaf varieties. I do > not know the specific cultivar names but I will find out. These large > leaf teas are unique to the Yunnan region and are traditionally only > made into puerh or red(black) tea. I have also seen imitations that > used Vietnamese leaf which were then processed in Yunnan. This is not to disagree with you, but as you know there are other legitimate hei chas, e.g. Liu An, that don't use Yunnan leaf of any kind but can be quite good. These teas aren't pretending to be true Puerhs, but they're often confusingly called Puerh. > 2) Processing. If you look at http://www.pu-erh.net/greenpuerh.html > (Production step #5) the withering step in the puerh process is > crucial to its ultimate quality. My Chinese teacher says that TRUE > puerh is Sun-Dried (Blue) rather than using other methods. So this sun drying, because it happens after what you call step 3, heating to stop oxidation, is different from the sun drying of white tea, which allows oxidation. > Sun drying does create some enzymatic (sp) conditions, however they > are all naturally occurring and are not artificially introduced like > in sour dough or yogurt. Since tea is organic matter, moisture is > involved, and the process takes many hours/days, these enzymatic > (sp) conditions occur quite naturally. Some puerhs are withered by > manmade heating systems (dryers) but these produce puerh of lesser > quality than sun dried methods. Sorry, but I find this confusing. I've read that in typical processing of green tea, the purpose of the heating corresponding to your step 3 is to stop oxidation *by killing the enzymes* in the leaves. Are you saying that the heat in step 3 is less intense, or shorter, or what? /Lew --- Lew Perin / http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
I opened up my 1997 "Hong Kong Back to China" 2 kilo brick green Pu-erh and
gave it a go. Two things strike me. First, although it *is* a green Pu-erh as witnessed by taste and style and liquor color, etc, the dry outer skin leaves are darker than I would have expected. Second, this tea has a soft camphory wood taste; very pleasing, but also very different from other Pu-erhs I've tasted of late. Smooth, but not sweet. Friendly and warm. I'd think some of these attributes would be reserved for Pu-erhs somewhat older. So, Pu-erh "age" can be a relative thing, much like the geological life of rivers. See, what all this Pu-erh talk has done to me. Michael |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
I opened up my 1997 "Hong Kong Back to China" 2 kilo brick green Pu-erh and
gave it a go. Two things strike me. First, although it *is* a green Pu-erh as witnessed by taste and style and liquor color, etc, the dry outer skin leaves are darker than I would have expected. Second, this tea has a soft camphory wood taste; very pleasing, but also very different from other Pu-erhs I've tasted of late. Smooth, but not sweet. Friendly and warm. I'd think some of these attributes would be reserved for Pu-erhs somewhat older. So, Pu-erh "age" can be a relative thing, much like the geological life of rivers. See, what all this Pu-erh talk has done to me. Michael |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
> > If you want to know more about the quality, then you need to check if
> > the processing(Green or Black), tea leaves, The tea master who > > processed the tea, location(Lang Chung is famous for good aged Pu-Erh > > tea tree), their storage facilities etc. etc. Their are many > > parameters. > > Legion. (I am so confused.) Michael: Sorry, I didn't want to confuse you. Honestly, I still have some confusion. Last time when I was in China, I didn't know so much about Pu-Erh. Right now, I have a strong basic for further enquiry about this tea. I hope from my next China trip, I will be able to clear-up my Pu-Erh confusion. Just enjoy your Pu-Erh. Remember, we all are still student about tea. Rest of our life, we will do the same. taste more teas and learn more about this treasure of God. Isn't it exciting? Ripon Vienna,VA |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
> > If you want to know more about the quality, then you need to check if
> > the processing(Green or Black), tea leaves, The tea master who > > processed the tea, location(Lang Chung is famous for good aged Pu-Erh > > tea tree), their storage facilities etc. etc. Their are many > > parameters. > > Legion. (I am so confused.) Michael: Sorry, I didn't want to confuse you. Honestly, I still have some confusion. Last time when I was in China, I didn't know so much about Pu-Erh. Right now, I have a strong basic for further enquiry about this tea. I hope from my next China trip, I will be able to clear-up my Pu-Erh confusion. Just enjoy your Pu-Erh. Remember, we all are still student about tea. Rest of our life, we will do the same. taste more teas and learn more about this treasure of God. Isn't it exciting? Ripon Vienna,VA |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
>> 1) The base tea MUST be one of the Yunnan large leaf varieties. I do >> not know the specific cultivar names but I will find out. These large >> leaf teas are unique to the Yunnan region and are traditionally only >> made into puerh or red(black) tea. I have also seen imitations that >> used Vietnamese leaf which were then processed in Yunnan. > >This is not to disagree with you, but as you know there are other >legitimate hei chas, e.g. Liu An, that don't use Yunnan leaf of any >kind but can be quite good. These teas aren't pretending to be true >Puerhs, but they're often confusingly called Puerh. My statement still stands, true Puerh is made from Yunnan large leaf trees. I was only speaking of "what makes puerh a puerh". I like Liu An as well but it is not puerh so I was not referring to it. I have not studied Liu An's processing at all. I guess you could say that I am a puerhist! >> 2) Processing. If you look at http://www.pu-erh.net/greenpuerh.html >> (Production step #5) the withering step in the puerh process is >> crucial to its ultimate quality. My Chinese teacher says that TRUE >> puerh is Sun-Dried (Blue) rather than using other methods. > >So this sun drying, because it happens after what you call step 3, >heating to stop oxidation, is different from the sun drying of white >tea, which allows oxidation. I do not know much about the processing of white tea so I am unable to offer a reliable comparison. >> Sun drying does create some enzymatic (sp) conditions, however they >> are all naturally occurring and are not artificially introduced like >> in sour dough or yogurt. Since tea is organic matter, moisture is >> involved, and the process takes many hours/days, these enzymatic >> (sp) conditions occur quite naturally. Some puerhs are withered by >> manmade heating systems (dryers) but these produce puerh of lesser >> quality than sun dried methods. > >Sorry, but I find this confusing. I've read that in typical >processing of green tea, the purpose of the heating corresponding to >your step 3 is to stop oxidation *by killing the enzymes* in the >leaves. Are you saying that the heat in step 3 is less intense, or >shorter, or what? I am saying that withering is one of the key differences in the processing of Puerh. The withering stage is long enough to allow the enzymatic action to begin again but on a much more subdued scale. Tea leaves have enzymes in their veins. The amount of oxidation depends upon how much of the enzymes are exposed and for how long. Now this enzyme killing stage (step 3, steaming, pan firing, etc) may very well be a little different than the green counterpart, this could be one of the differences that the Chinese Factories are reluctant to talk about. Black tea does not get this enzyme killing stage. Green tea is steamed or pan fried to kill the enzymes and then the tea is typically dried mechanically over a course of minutes, not hours. The whole green tea process typically only takes a few hours from start to finish, it is not allowed to wither in the sun for hours/days so it never has time to start oxidizing again before it was thoroughly dried. Withering can be, and often is, omitted during the production of green tea, but it is crucial in puerh (also black tea) production. Sun withering is almost exclusively used for puerh. Withering in the sun does allow for the return of some enzymatic action because. 1) not all of the enzymes get killed by pan firing or steaming, and 2) wet organic matter will begin to oxidize again over the course of the hours/days until sufficient moisture has dried away. Had the pan firing not occurred it would have oxidized considerably more rapidly during this withering stage. Hence there is more enzymatic action (aka Beasties) in the process of making Puerh than there is in the process of making Green Tea. Mike Petro http://www.pu-erh.net remove the "filter" in my email address to reply |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
>> 1) The base tea MUST be one of the Yunnan large leaf varieties. I do >> not know the specific cultivar names but I will find out. These large >> leaf teas are unique to the Yunnan region and are traditionally only >> made into puerh or red(black) tea. I have also seen imitations that >> used Vietnamese leaf which were then processed in Yunnan. > >This is not to disagree with you, but as you know there are other >legitimate hei chas, e.g. Liu An, that don't use Yunnan leaf of any >kind but can be quite good. These teas aren't pretending to be true >Puerhs, but they're often confusingly called Puerh. My statement still stands, true Puerh is made from Yunnan large leaf trees. I was only speaking of "what makes puerh a puerh". I like Liu An as well but it is not puerh so I was not referring to it. I have not studied Liu An's processing at all. I guess you could say that I am a puerhist! >> 2) Processing. If you look at http://www.pu-erh.net/greenpuerh.html >> (Production step #5) the withering step in the puerh process is >> crucial to its ultimate quality. My Chinese teacher says that TRUE >> puerh is Sun-Dried (Blue) rather than using other methods. > >So this sun drying, because it happens after what you call step 3, >heating to stop oxidation, is different from the sun drying of white >tea, which allows oxidation. I do not know much about the processing of white tea so I am unable to offer a reliable comparison. >> Sun drying does create some enzymatic (sp) conditions, however they >> are all naturally occurring and are not artificially introduced like >> in sour dough or yogurt. Since tea is organic matter, moisture is >> involved, and the process takes many hours/days, these enzymatic >> (sp) conditions occur quite naturally. Some puerhs are withered by >> manmade heating systems (dryers) but these produce puerh of lesser >> quality than sun dried methods. > >Sorry, but I find this confusing. I've read that in typical >processing of green tea, the purpose of the heating corresponding to >your step 3 is to stop oxidation *by killing the enzymes* in the >leaves. Are you saying that the heat in step 3 is less intense, or >shorter, or what? I am saying that withering is one of the key differences in the processing of Puerh. The withering stage is long enough to allow the enzymatic action to begin again but on a much more subdued scale. Tea leaves have enzymes in their veins. The amount of oxidation depends upon how much of the enzymes are exposed and for how long. Now this enzyme killing stage (step 3, steaming, pan firing, etc) may very well be a little different than the green counterpart, this could be one of the differences that the Chinese Factories are reluctant to talk about. Black tea does not get this enzyme killing stage. Green tea is steamed or pan fried to kill the enzymes and then the tea is typically dried mechanically over a course of minutes, not hours. The whole green tea process typically only takes a few hours from start to finish, it is not allowed to wither in the sun for hours/days so it never has time to start oxidizing again before it was thoroughly dried. Withering can be, and often is, omitted during the production of green tea, but it is crucial in puerh (also black tea) production. Sun withering is almost exclusively used for puerh. Withering in the sun does allow for the return of some enzymatic action because. 1) not all of the enzymes get killed by pan firing or steaming, and 2) wet organic matter will begin to oxidize again over the course of the hours/days until sufficient moisture has dried away. Had the pan firing not occurred it would have oxidized considerably more rapidly during this withering stage. Hence there is more enzymatic action (aka Beasties) in the process of making Puerh than there is in the process of making Green Tea. Mike Petro http://www.pu-erh.net remove the "filter" in my email address to reply |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
Hi Michael,
See my responses below... Linda > Linda, > > Interesting comments you made. I've interspersed questions below which I > hope you will help us by answering. > > [Linda] > > A few comments: > > 1. The oldest tea tree in Yunnan (and the world) > > is only 2700 year old. It was awarded a Shanghai > > Guinness World of Record. It is now under the > > guardiance of Mr. Lee Rie-Ho and his Ten Ren tea > > company. > > How is the age of this tree verified? How is the age of any really old tea > tree verified? I think there *might* be a tree that you were not aware of. > Is that possible? > > (Linda - Many researchers went down there and measured many things then came out with that conclusion. Local governments are dying to have a "world's oldest tree" in there areas, if there is one older than the 2700 year one, you think that they would rush out to announce that. ) > [Linda] > > 2. Teas from the six tea moutains have different > > characteristics. Some are sweeter, some have > > stronger aroma... > > To help us, could you be a little more specific about these "six tea > mountains"? What are their names in Chinese and in English? What in your > view causes the differences you mentioned? Soil? Tree variety? Other? > > (Linda - The old six tea mountains a You Le ֡Ge Deng ǡYi Bang аMang Zhi ç֦ Man Rui ˡMan Sa . The new six tea mountains a Man Sa Yi Wu 䡢Man Zhuan שYi Bang аGe Deng ǡYou Le . I do not know why they taste different. We just know it by experiences. ) > [Linda] > > 3. Like other teas, early spring leaves are the > > best for making Pu-erh. Regardless the leaf > > varieties, fresh leaves have to grow from tiny > > to large. When you only have a very short period > > of time to grow (early Spring), how large a > > young leave can be? 4-5cm the most. > > I am not doubting you, but wouldn't the case of Oolongs such as Tie Guan Yin > be a reasonable exception because the leaves must undergo such profound > manipulation and processing? Wouldn't an Oolong leaf have to be strong to > weather this treatment and handling? Isn't a "rubbery" -- that is a > resilient and strong somewhat OLDER leaf -- best for Oolong production? > > Further, 5 cm is about 2 inches, which is already pretty big. Nobody > suggested that truly old leaves are used from the "large leaf" varietals to > produce Pu-erh. The young leaf used for a Bi Lo Chun for example is a > different level of "young" than the appropriate leaf used for a Pu-erh. I'm > nearly sure that a leaf appropriate to the productin of Bi Lo Chun would > disintegrate into powder if you tried to produce a Pu-erh out of it. > (Linda - You were right about both Tie Guan Yin and Bi Luo Chun. What I meant was that generally speaking, young leaves were better for processing teas. Oolong tea is an exception. It does require older leaves. Bi Luo Chun on the other hand, requires very young leaves. Bi Luo Chun only uses young tea buds, while Tie Guan Yin uses one bud and three leaves... Pu-erh is the in the middle of the range. Our green pu-erh only uses early spring before rain leaves.) > Finally, the most important question, which I beg you to answer for us and > clear up the mystery: **What makes Pu-erh Pu- erh?** > (Linda - Traditionally, we call young raw (uncooked) Pu-erh Qing Bing ( or Green Been Cha, and consider it as Pu-erh. According to the newly published Pu-erh Yunnan Local Standard, the definition of Pu-er is like the following: Pu-erh tea is a type of fermented tea that is processed using sun-dried large-leaf tea leaves from certain areas in Yunnan. Pu-erh tea can be divided into two categories: loose and compressed. Pu-erh has the following characteristics: brownish red dry leaves, clear bright reddish tea liquor, aged woody aroma, mellow with sweet after taste flavor, and brownish red color wet leaves. You may find more about that standard at our web site at http://www.teahub.com/puerhtalk.htm . Under this definition, you may consider Qing Bing as raw materials for fermented Pu-erh. Many people in Asia collect high quality Qing Bing when they are affordable and patiently wait them to age and go up in price. BTW, you sure can drink Qing Bing as green tea (with little difference in brewing method - after all, it is made for Pu-erh). > Finally again, Mike P, could you kindly help us with the verification of our > 3700 year old tree. Perhaps get a little more specific information from your > respected teacher in Kumming (sp?). Thanks. > > Linda, thanks for joining this "conversation." I'm truly looking forward to > your help in clarifying the issues, answering my questions. > > Michael > > > > >> Mike > > 6/ > > 28/04 > >> > >> > >>>>> So, if this tea, which is fresher than > > most so-called fresh greens we > >>>>> drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs > > I've ever had, what, then, > >>>>> is a Puerh? > >>> > >>>> I think Lew's question is right on the > > money. > >>> snip > >>>> Nor can I figure out what makes Pu-erh Pu- > > erh. > >>> > >>> > >>> Technically Puerh is tea from the Yunnan > > large leaf varieties of the > >>> tea plant that is processed in the > > traditional methods, see my site > >>> for specific processing steps. The "tea > > variety/traditional > >>> processing" is what makes a puerh a puerh. > > Within this broad group are > >>> a multitude of variables that can make > > distinctly different tasting > >>> products. The "natural oxidation" process is > > what "ages" puerh and > >>> improves it. > >> > >> Have we given up on the beastie theory? I'll > > check out your site again. > >> Meanwhile Mike, why not place the site URL as > > part of your signature block > >> the way Lew places Babelcarp's homebase? It > > would be very helpful. > >> > >>> What you guys experienced what an > > outstanding "base tea" > >>> that was "processed" into puerh. To my > > knowledge they do not process > >>> these "wild old" trees any other way > > presumably because the value when > >>> processed as puerh exceeds other methods, > > though I have seen regular > >>> Yunnan large leaf blacks before. > >> > >>> BTW, I have independent confirmation about > > the Tea Master who has > >>> contracted all of the tea from this 3700 > > year old tree. My buddy in > >>> China confirmed the existence and is rather > > jealous because he has > >>> never been able to get a hold of a sample. > >> > >> If he has a house to mortgage or a child to > > sell, I would part with part of > >> my sample. Actually, we could discuss this > > more seriously off-group. I do > >> have some and enough to share. I'm glad to > > hear the confirmation. > >>> > >>> Lew, I have tasted some of these $100+ cakes > > but let me taste these > >>> upcoming samples and I will let you know if > > they compare. I suspect > >>> not as these pedigreed cakes I have tasted > > where from trees that were > >>> quite old but still less than 1000 years old. > >> > >> I'm going to hazzard a guess here, go out on a > > limb, based on absolutely > >> nothing, and say that I really don't think > > that a tree let us say 800 years > >> old is going to produce a tea significantly > > different from a tea from a tree > >> three or four times its age, all other things > > being equal. Why do I think > >> so? Just seems that way to me. (Conversely, > > tea from each tree will be > >> different given soil, micro-climate, and other > > individual conditions.) > >> > >> Michael > >> > >> > > > > > > |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
Hi Michael,
See my responses below... Linda > Linda, > > Interesting comments you made. I've interspersed questions below which I > hope you will help us by answering. > > [Linda] > > A few comments: > > 1. The oldest tea tree in Yunnan (and the world) > > is only 2700 year old. It was awarded a Shanghai > > Guinness World of Record. It is now under the > > guardiance of Mr. Lee Rie-Ho and his Ten Ren tea > > company. > > How is the age of this tree verified? How is the age of any really old tea > tree verified? I think there *might* be a tree that you were not aware of. > Is that possible? > > (Linda - Many researchers went down there and measured many things then came out with that conclusion. Local governments are dying to have a "world's oldest tree" in there areas, if there is one older than the 2700 year one, you think that they would rush out to announce that. ) > [Linda] > > 2. Teas from the six tea moutains have different > > characteristics. Some are sweeter, some have > > stronger aroma... > > To help us, could you be a little more specific about these "six tea > mountains"? What are their names in Chinese and in English? What in your > view causes the differences you mentioned? Soil? Tree variety? Other? > > (Linda - The old six tea mountains a You Le ֡Ge Deng ǡYi Bang аMang Zhi ç֦ Man Rui ˡMan Sa . The new six tea mountains a Man Sa Yi Wu 䡢Man Zhuan שYi Bang аGe Deng ǡYou Le . I do not know why they taste different. We just know it by experiences. ) > [Linda] > > 3. Like other teas, early spring leaves are the > > best for making Pu-erh. Regardless the leaf > > varieties, fresh leaves have to grow from tiny > > to large. When you only have a very short period > > of time to grow (early Spring), how large a > > young leave can be? 4-5cm the most. > > I am not doubting you, but wouldn't the case of Oolongs such as Tie Guan Yin > be a reasonable exception because the leaves must undergo such profound > manipulation and processing? Wouldn't an Oolong leaf have to be strong to > weather this treatment and handling? Isn't a "rubbery" -- that is a > resilient and strong somewhat OLDER leaf -- best for Oolong production? > > Further, 5 cm is about 2 inches, which is already pretty big. Nobody > suggested that truly old leaves are used from the "large leaf" varietals to > produce Pu-erh. The young leaf used for a Bi Lo Chun for example is a > different level of "young" than the appropriate leaf used for a Pu-erh. I'm > nearly sure that a leaf appropriate to the productin of Bi Lo Chun would > disintegrate into powder if you tried to produce a Pu-erh out of it. > (Linda - You were right about both Tie Guan Yin and Bi Luo Chun. What I meant was that generally speaking, young leaves were better for processing teas. Oolong tea is an exception. It does require older leaves. Bi Luo Chun on the other hand, requires very young leaves. Bi Luo Chun only uses young tea buds, while Tie Guan Yin uses one bud and three leaves... Pu-erh is the in the middle of the range. Our green pu-erh only uses early spring before rain leaves.) > Finally, the most important question, which I beg you to answer for us and > clear up the mystery: **What makes Pu-erh Pu- erh?** > (Linda - Traditionally, we call young raw (uncooked) Pu-erh Qing Bing ( or Green Been Cha, and consider it as Pu-erh. According to the newly published Pu-erh Yunnan Local Standard, the definition of Pu-er is like the following: Pu-erh tea is a type of fermented tea that is processed using sun-dried large-leaf tea leaves from certain areas in Yunnan. Pu-erh tea can be divided into two categories: loose and compressed. Pu-erh has the following characteristics: brownish red dry leaves, clear bright reddish tea liquor, aged woody aroma, mellow with sweet after taste flavor, and brownish red color wet leaves. You may find more about that standard at our web site at http://www.teahub.com/puerhtalk.htm . Under this definition, you may consider Qing Bing as raw materials for fermented Pu-erh. Many people in Asia collect high quality Qing Bing when they are affordable and patiently wait them to age and go up in price. BTW, you sure can drink Qing Bing as green tea (with little difference in brewing method - after all, it is made for Pu-erh). > Finally again, Mike P, could you kindly help us with the verification of our > 3700 year old tree. Perhaps get a little more specific information from your > respected teacher in Kumming (sp?). Thanks. > > Linda, thanks for joining this "conversation." I'm truly looking forward to > your help in clarifying the issues, answering my questions. > > Michael > > > > >> Mike > > 6/ > > 28/04 > >> > >> > >>>>> So, if this tea, which is fresher than > > most so-called fresh greens we > >>>>> drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs > > I've ever had, what, then, > >>>>> is a Puerh? > >>> > >>>> I think Lew's question is right on the > > money. > >>> snip > >>>> Nor can I figure out what makes Pu-erh Pu- > > erh. > >>> > >>> > >>> Technically Puerh is tea from the Yunnan > > large leaf varieties of the > >>> tea plant that is processed in the > > traditional methods, see my site > >>> for specific processing steps. The "tea > > variety/traditional > >>> processing" is what makes a puerh a puerh. > > Within this broad group are > >>> a multitude of variables that can make > > distinctly different tasting > >>> products. The "natural oxidation" process is > > what "ages" puerh and > >>> improves it. > >> > >> Have we given up on the beastie theory? I'll > > check out your site again. > >> Meanwhile Mike, why not place the site URL as > > part of your signature block > >> the way Lew places Babelcarp's homebase? It > > would be very helpful. > >> > >>> What you guys experienced what an > > outstanding "base tea" > >>> that was "processed" into puerh. To my > > knowledge they do not process > >>> these "wild old" trees any other way > > presumably because the value when > >>> processed as puerh exceeds other methods, > > though I have seen regular > >>> Yunnan large leaf blacks before. > >> > >>> BTW, I have independent confirmation about > > the Tea Master who has > >>> contracted all of the tea from this 3700 > > year old tree. My buddy in > >>> China confirmed the existence and is rather > > jealous because he has > >>> never been able to get a hold of a sample. > >> > >> If he has a house to mortgage or a child to > > sell, I would part with part of > >> my sample. Actually, we could discuss this > > more seriously off-group. I do > >> have some and enough to share. I'm glad to > > hear the confirmation. > >>> > >>> Lew, I have tasted some of these $100+ cakes > > but let me taste these > >>> upcoming samples and I will let you know if > > they compare. I suspect > >>> not as these pedigreed cakes I have tasted > > where from trees that were > >>> quite old but still less than 1000 years old. > >> > >> I'm going to hazzard a guess here, go out on a > > limb, based on absolutely > >> nothing, and say that I really don't think > > that a tree let us say 800 years > >> old is going to produce a tea significantly > > different from a tea from a tree > >> three or four times its age, all other things > > being equal. Why do I think > >> so? Just seems that way to me. (Conversely, > > tea from each tree will be > >> different given soil, micro-climate, and other > > individual conditions.) > >> > >> Michael > >> > >> > > > > > > |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
Mike 6/30/04
> >>> 1) The base tea MUST be one of the Yunnan large leaf varieties. I do >>> not know the specific cultivar names but I will find out. These large >>> leaf teas are unique to the Yunnan region and are traditionally only >>> made into puerh or red(black) tea. I have also seen imitations that >>> used Vietnamese leaf which were then processed in Yunnan. >> >> This is not to disagree with you, but as you know there are other >> legitimate hei chas, e.g. Liu An, that don't use Yunnan leaf of any >> kind but can be quite good. These teas aren't pretending to be true >> Puerhs, but they're often confusingly called Puerh. > > My statement still stands, true Puerh is made from Yunnan large leaf > trees. I was only speaking of "what makes puerh a puerh". I like Liu > An as well but it is not puerh so I was not referring to it. I have > not studied Liu An's processing at all. I guess you could say that I > am a puerhist! The taste of the Liu An would suggest some similarity of processing with what we can call "classical" Pu-erh. Semantics rears its ugly head. I guess you could call me puerile. > >>> 2) Processing. If you look at http://www.pu-erh.net/greenpuerh.html >>> (Production step #5) the withering step in the puerh process is >>> crucial to its ultimate quality. My Chinese teacher says that TRUE >>> puerh is Sun-Dried (Blue) rather than using other methods. >> >> So this sun drying, because it happens after what you call step 3, >> heating to stop oxidation, is different from the sun drying of white >> tea, which allows oxidation. > > I do not know much about the processing of white tea so I am unable to > offer a reliable comparison. > >>> Sun drying does create some enzymatic (sp) conditions, however they >>> are all naturally occurring and are not artificially introduced like >>> in sour dough or yogurt. Since tea is organic matter, moisture is >>> involved, and the process takes many hours/days, these enzymatic >>> (sp) conditions occur quite naturally. Some puerhs are withered by >>> manmade heating systems (dryers) but these produce puerh of lesser >>> quality than sun dried methods. >> >> Sorry, but I find this confusing. I've read that in typical >> processing of green tea, the purpose of the heating corresponding to >> your step 3 is to stop oxidation *by killing the enzymes* in the >> leaves. Are you saying that the heat in step 3 is less intense, or >> shorter, or what? > > I am saying that withering is one of the key differences in the > processing of Puerh. The withering stage is long enough to allow the > enzymatic action to begin again but on a much more subdued scale. Tea > leaves have enzymes in their veins. The amount of oxidation depends > upon how much of the enzymes are exposed and for how long. > > Now this enzyme killing stage (step 3, steaming, pan firing, etc) may > very well be a little different than the green counterpart, this could > be one of the differences that the Chinese Factories are reluctant to > talk about. Black tea does not get this enzyme killing stage. > > Green tea is steamed or pan fried to kill the enzymes and then the tea > is typically dried mechanically over a course of minutes, not hours. > The whole green tea process typically only takes a few hours from > start to finish, it is not allowed to wither in the sun for hours/days > so it never has time to start oxidizing again before it was thoroughly > dried. > > Withering can be, and often is, omitted during the production of green > tea, but it is crucial in puerh (also black tea) production. Sun > withering is almost exclusively used for puerh. Withering in the sun > does allow for the return of some enzymatic action because. 1) not all > of the enzymes get killed by pan firing or steaming, and 2) wet > organic matter will begin to oxidize again over the course of the > hours/days until sufficient moisture has dried away. Had the pan > firing not occurred it would have oxidized considerably more rapidly > during this withering stage. > > Hence there is more enzymatic action (aka Beasties) in the process of > making Puerh than there is in the process of making Green Tea. Enzymatic action (aka Beasties)? I thought we were talking about an oxidation process -- interactions with the oxygen of the air causing the leaf to darken. So, the beasties feed on or are encouraged by the enzymes? I'm so confused. (Don't worry; confusion is my life.) Michael |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
Linda,
Thanks for adding a couple more pieces to the puzzle. A picture is emerging. Lew, did you get what I imagine to be Chinese characters in Linda's text? It came up code in my mail program. Michael 6/30/04 > Hi Michael, > > See my responses below... > > Linda > >> Linda, >> >> Interesting comments you made. I've > interspersed questions below which I >> hope you will help us by answering. >> >> [Linda] >>> A few comments: >>> 1. The oldest tea tree in Yunnan (and the > world) >>> is only 2700 year old. It was awarded a > Shanghai >>> Guinness World of Record. It is now under the >>> guardiance of Mr. Lee Rie-Ho and his Ten Ren > tea >>> company. >> >> How is the age of this tree verified? How is > the age of any really old tea >> tree verified? I think there *might* be a tree > that you were not aware of. >> Is that possible? >>> > (Linda - Many researchers went down there and > measured many things then came out with that > conclusion. Local governments are dying to have > a "world's oldest tree" in there areas, if there > is one older than the 2700 year one, you think > that they would rush out to announce that. ) > >> [Linda] >>> 2. Teas from the six tea moutains have > different >>> characteristics. Some are sweeter, some have >>> stronger aroma... >> >> To help us, could you be a little more > specific about these "six tea >> mountains"? What are their names in Chinese > and in English? What in your >> view causes the differences you mentioned? > Soil? Tree variety? Other? >>> > (Linda - The old six tea mountains a You Le > ֡Ge Deng ǡYi Bang аMang Zhi ç֦ > Man Rui ˡMan Sa . The new six tea > mountains a Man Sa Yi Wu 䡢Man Zhuan > שYi Bang аGe Deng ǡYou Le . > I do not know why they taste different. We just > know it by experiences. ) > >> [Linda] >>> 3. Like other teas, early spring leaves are > the >>> best for making Pu-erh. Regardless the leaf >>> varieties, fresh leaves have to grow from > tiny >>> to large. When you only have a very short > period >>> of time to grow (early Spring), how large a >>> young leave can be? 4-5cm the most. >> >> I am not doubting you, but wouldn't the case > of Oolongs such as Tie Guan Yin >> be a reasonable exception because the leaves > must undergo such profound >> manipulation and processing? Wouldn't an > Oolong leaf have to be strong to >> weather this treatment and handling? Isn't > a "rubbery" -- that is a >> resilient and strong somewhat OLDER leaf -- > best for Oolong production? >> >> Further, 5 cm is about 2 inches, which is > already pretty big. Nobody >> suggested that truly old leaves are used from > the "large leaf" varietals to >> produce Pu-erh. The young leaf used for a Bi > Lo Chun for example is a >> different level of "young" than the > appropriate leaf used for a Pu-erh. I'm >> nearly sure that a leaf appropriate to the > productin of Bi Lo Chun would >> disintegrate into powder if you tried to > produce a Pu-erh out of it. >> > > (Linda - You were right about both Tie Guan Yin > and Bi Luo Chun. What I meant was that generally > speaking, young leaves were better for > processing teas. Oolong tea is an exception. It > does require older leaves. Bi Luo Chun on the > other hand, requires very young leaves. Bi Luo > Chun only uses young tea buds, while Tie Guan > Yin uses one bud and three leaves... Pu-erh is > the in the middle of the range. Our green pu-erh > only uses early spring before rain leaves.) > >> Finally, the most important question, which I > beg you to answer for us and >> clear up the mystery: **What makes Pu-erh Pu- > erh?** >> > (Linda - Traditionally, we call young raw > (uncooked) Pu-erh Qing Bing ( or Green > Been Cha, and consider it as Pu-erh. According > to the newly published Pu-erh Yunnan Local > Standard, the definition of Pu-er is like the > following: > > Pu-erh tea is a type of fermented tea that is > processed using sun-dried large-leaf tea leaves > from certain areas in Yunnan. Pu-erh tea can be > divided into two categories: loose and > compressed. Pu-erh has the following > characteristics: brownish red dry leaves, clear > bright reddish tea liquor, aged woody aroma, > mellow with sweet after taste flavor, and > brownish red color wet leaves. > > You may find more about that standard at our web > site at http://www.teahub.com/puerhtalk.htm . > Under this definition, you may consider Qing > Bing as raw materials for fermented Pu-erh. Many > people in Asia collect high quality Qing Bing > when they are affordable and patiently wait them > to age and go up in price. BTW, you sure can > drink Qing Bing as green tea (with little > difference in brewing method - after all, it is > made for Pu-erh). |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
Linda,
Thanks for adding a couple more pieces to the puzzle. A picture is emerging. Lew, did you get what I imagine to be Chinese characters in Linda's text? It came up code in my mail program. Michael 6/30/04 > Hi Michael, > > See my responses below... > > Linda > >> Linda, >> >> Interesting comments you made. I've > interspersed questions below which I >> hope you will help us by answering. >> >> [Linda] >>> A few comments: >>> 1. The oldest tea tree in Yunnan (and the > world) >>> is only 2700 year old. It was awarded a > Shanghai >>> Guinness World of Record. It is now under the >>> guardiance of Mr. Lee Rie-Ho and his Ten Ren > tea >>> company. >> >> How is the age of this tree verified? How is > the age of any really old tea >> tree verified? I think there *might* be a tree > that you were not aware of. >> Is that possible? >>> > (Linda - Many researchers went down there and > measured many things then came out with that > conclusion. Local governments are dying to have > a "world's oldest tree" in there areas, if there > is one older than the 2700 year one, you think > that they would rush out to announce that. ) > >> [Linda] >>> 2. Teas from the six tea moutains have > different >>> characteristics. Some are sweeter, some have >>> stronger aroma... >> >> To help us, could you be a little more > specific about these "six tea >> mountains"? What are their names in Chinese > and in English? What in your >> view causes the differences you mentioned? > Soil? Tree variety? Other? >>> > (Linda - The old six tea mountains a You Le > ֡Ge Deng ǡYi Bang аMang Zhi ç֦ > Man Rui ˡMan Sa . The new six tea > mountains a Man Sa Yi Wu 䡢Man Zhuan > שYi Bang аGe Deng ǡYou Le . > I do not know why they taste different. We just > know it by experiences. ) > >> [Linda] >>> 3. Like other teas, early spring leaves are > the >>> best for making Pu-erh. Regardless the leaf >>> varieties, fresh leaves have to grow from > tiny >>> to large. When you only have a very short > period >>> of time to grow (early Spring), how large a >>> young leave can be? 4-5cm the most. >> >> I am not doubting you, but wouldn't the case > of Oolongs such as Tie Guan Yin >> be a reasonable exception because the leaves > must undergo such profound >> manipulation and processing? Wouldn't an > Oolong leaf have to be strong to >> weather this treatment and handling? Isn't > a "rubbery" -- that is a >> resilient and strong somewhat OLDER leaf -- > best for Oolong production? >> >> Further, 5 cm is about 2 inches, which is > already pretty big. Nobody >> suggested that truly old leaves are used from > the "large leaf" varietals to >> produce Pu-erh. The young leaf used for a Bi > Lo Chun for example is a >> different level of "young" than the > appropriate leaf used for a Pu-erh. I'm >> nearly sure that a leaf appropriate to the > productin of Bi Lo Chun would >> disintegrate into powder if you tried to > produce a Pu-erh out of it. >> > > (Linda - You were right about both Tie Guan Yin > and Bi Luo Chun. What I meant was that generally > speaking, young leaves were better for > processing teas. Oolong tea is an exception. It > does require older leaves. Bi Luo Chun on the > other hand, requires very young leaves. Bi Luo > Chun only uses young tea buds, while Tie Guan > Yin uses one bud and three leaves... Pu-erh is > the in the middle of the range. Our green pu-erh > only uses early spring before rain leaves.) > >> Finally, the most important question, which I > beg you to answer for us and >> clear up the mystery: **What makes Pu-erh Pu- > erh?** >> > (Linda - Traditionally, we call young raw > (uncooked) Pu-erh Qing Bing ( or Green > Been Cha, and consider it as Pu-erh. According > to the newly published Pu-erh Yunnan Local > Standard, the definition of Pu-er is like the > following: > > Pu-erh tea is a type of fermented tea that is > processed using sun-dried large-leaf tea leaves > from certain areas in Yunnan. Pu-erh tea can be > divided into two categories: loose and > compressed. Pu-erh has the following > characteristics: brownish red dry leaves, clear > bright reddish tea liquor, aged woody aroma, > mellow with sweet after taste flavor, and > brownish red color wet leaves. > > You may find more about that standard at our web > site at http://www.teahub.com/puerhtalk.htm . > Under this definition, you may consider Qing > Bing as raw materials for fermented Pu-erh. Many > people in Asia collect high quality Qing Bing > when they are affordable and patiently wait them > to age and go up in price. BTW, you sure can > drink Qing Bing as green tea (with little > difference in brewing method - after all, it is > made for Pu-erh). |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
Michael Plant > writes:
> Thanks for adding a couple more pieces to the puzzle. A picture is emerging. > Lew, did you get what I imagine to be Chinese characters in Linda's text? > It came up code in my mail program. If you manually set your charset to cn-gb-2312 I think you'll see the right characters. Linda's article doesn't contain a MIME header that indicates the charset, so even the best software is unlikely to display it correctly unless it defaults to that charset. Cheers, - Joel |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
Michael Plant > writes:
> Thanks for adding a couple more pieces to the puzzle. A picture is emerging. > Lew, did you get what I imagine to be Chinese characters in Linda's text? > It came up code in my mail program. If you manually set your charset to cn-gb-2312 I think you'll see the right characters. Linda's article doesn't contain a MIME header that indicates the charset, so even the best software is unlikely to display it correctly unless it defaults to that charset. Cheers, - Joel |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
>> >>>> 1) The base tea MUST be one of the Yunnan large leaf varieties. I do >>>> not know the specific cultivar names but I will find out. These large >>>> leaf teas are unique to the Yunnan region and are traditionally only >>>> made into puerh or red(black) tea. I have also seen imitations that >>>> used Vietnamese leaf which were then processed in Yunnan. >>> >>> This is not to disagree with you, but as you know there are other >>> legitimate hei chas, e.g. Liu An, that don't use Yunnan leaf of any >>> kind but can be quite good. These teas aren't pretending to be true >>> Puerhs, but they're often confusingly called Puerh. >> >> My statement still stands, true Puerh is made from Yunnan large leaf >> trees. I was only speaking of "what makes puerh a puerh". I like Liu >> An as well but it is not puerh so I was not referring to it. I have >> not studied Liu An's processing at all. I guess you could say that I >> am a puerhist! > >The taste of the Liu An would suggest some similarity of processing with >what we can call "classical" Pu-erh. Semantics rears its ugly head. I guess >you could call me puerile. I disagree, it is more than simple semantics. Puerh and Liu An are different teas and come from different base teas. The processing may be similar, I really don't know, but the 2 things that make a puerh are base tea and processing. Liu An does not satisfy BOTH requirements. You will never hear me call Liu An a puerh! They ARE "similar" products but this thread is about "What is a Puerh, really" and Liu An is NOT really. Snip >> I am saying that withering is one of the key differences in the >> processing of Puerh. The withering stage is long enough to allow the >> enzymatic action to begin again but on a much more subdued scale. Tea >> leaves have enzymes in their veins. The amount of oxidation depends >> upon how much of the enzymes are exposed and for how long. >> >> Now this enzyme killing stage (step 3, steaming, pan firing, etc) may >> very well be a little different than the green counterpart, this could >> be one of the differences that the Chinese Factories are reluctant to >> talk about. Black tea does not get this enzyme killing stage. >> >> Green tea is steamed or pan fried to kill the enzymes and then the tea >> is typically dried mechanically over a course of minutes, not hours. >> The whole green tea process typically only takes a few hours from >> start to finish, it is not allowed to wither in the sun for hours/days >> so it never has time to start oxidizing again before it was thoroughly >> dried. >> >> Withering can be, and often is, omitted during the production of green >> tea, but it is crucial in puerh (also black tea) production. Sun >> withering is almost exclusively used for puerh. Withering in the sun >> does allow for the return of some enzymatic action because. 1) not all >> of the enzymes get killed by pan firing or steaming, and 2) wet >> organic matter will begin to oxidize again over the course of the >> hours/days until sufficient moisture has dried away. Had the pan >> firing not occurred it would have oxidized considerably more rapidly >> during this withering stage. >> >> Hence there is more enzymatic action (aka Beasties) in the process of >> making Puerh than there is in the process of making Green Tea. > >Enzymatic action (aka Beasties)? I thought we were talking about an >oxidation process -- interactions with the oxygen of the air causing the >leaf to darken. So, the beasties feed on or are encouraged by the enzymes? >I'm so confused. (Don't worry; confusion is my life.) It is the enzymes that react with the oxygen to cause the oxidation. Fewer enzymes equals less oxidation. Mike Petro http://www.pu-erh.net remove the "filter" in my email address to reply |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
>> >>>> 1) The base tea MUST be one of the Yunnan large leaf varieties. I do >>>> not know the specific cultivar names but I will find out. These large >>>> leaf teas are unique to the Yunnan region and are traditionally only >>>> made into puerh or red(black) tea. I have also seen imitations that >>>> used Vietnamese leaf which were then processed in Yunnan. >>> >>> This is not to disagree with you, but as you know there are other >>> legitimate hei chas, e.g. Liu An, that don't use Yunnan leaf of any >>> kind but can be quite good. These teas aren't pretending to be true >>> Puerhs, but they're often confusingly called Puerh. >> >> My statement still stands, true Puerh is made from Yunnan large leaf >> trees. I was only speaking of "what makes puerh a puerh". I like Liu >> An as well but it is not puerh so I was not referring to it. I have >> not studied Liu An's processing at all. I guess you could say that I >> am a puerhist! > >The taste of the Liu An would suggest some similarity of processing with >what we can call "classical" Pu-erh. Semantics rears its ugly head. I guess >you could call me puerile. I disagree, it is more than simple semantics. Puerh and Liu An are different teas and come from different base teas. The processing may be similar, I really don't know, but the 2 things that make a puerh are base tea and processing. Liu An does not satisfy BOTH requirements. You will never hear me call Liu An a puerh! They ARE "similar" products but this thread is about "What is a Puerh, really" and Liu An is NOT really. Snip >> I am saying that withering is one of the key differences in the >> processing of Puerh. The withering stage is long enough to allow the >> enzymatic action to begin again but on a much more subdued scale. Tea >> leaves have enzymes in their veins. The amount of oxidation depends >> upon how much of the enzymes are exposed and for how long. >> >> Now this enzyme killing stage (step 3, steaming, pan firing, etc) may >> very well be a little different than the green counterpart, this could >> be one of the differences that the Chinese Factories are reluctant to >> talk about. Black tea does not get this enzyme killing stage. >> >> Green tea is steamed or pan fried to kill the enzymes and then the tea >> is typically dried mechanically over a course of minutes, not hours. >> The whole green tea process typically only takes a few hours from >> start to finish, it is not allowed to wither in the sun for hours/days >> so it never has time to start oxidizing again before it was thoroughly >> dried. >> >> Withering can be, and often is, omitted during the production of green >> tea, but it is crucial in puerh (also black tea) production. Sun >> withering is almost exclusively used for puerh. Withering in the sun >> does allow for the return of some enzymatic action because. 1) not all >> of the enzymes get killed by pan firing or steaming, and 2) wet >> organic matter will begin to oxidize again over the course of the >> hours/days until sufficient moisture has dried away. Had the pan >> firing not occurred it would have oxidized considerably more rapidly >> during this withering stage. >> >> Hence there is more enzymatic action (aka Beasties) in the process of >> making Puerh than there is in the process of making Green Tea. > >Enzymatic action (aka Beasties)? I thought we were talking about an >oxidation process -- interactions with the oxygen of the air causing the >leaf to darken. So, the beasties feed on or are encouraged by the enzymes? >I'm so confused. (Don't worry; confusion is my life.) It is the enzymes that react with the oxygen to cause the oxidation. Fewer enzymes equals less oxidation. Mike Petro http://www.pu-erh.net remove the "filter" in my email address to reply |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
Hi Mike,
> I am saying that withering is one of the key differences in the > processing of Puerh. The withering stage is long enough to allow the > enzymatic action to begin again but on a much more subdued scale. Well that's very interesting but the Puer-kin is not an enzyme. It's a sort of bacteria (kin is the Japanese reading of the character for bacterias). > Hence there is more enzymatic action (aka Beasties) Puer-kin are "beasties", but enzymes are not. That took me a while to understand that when I was at highschool. In oolong and red tea there is an enzymatic reaction (oxydation that is also called "fermentation"), and no "beasties". In Puer, there are both enzymes for the oxidation and a specific bacteria for the long-run reaction (that is also called "post-fermentation" but should be "bacterial fermentation" ). 2 different phenomenons. That Puer-kin is naturally living in treebark, and has to be "introduced" into the dried tea leaves. Well, at least that's what they say they do in Xishuangbanna and what the Japanese micro-organism scientists (that are researching the action of that Puer-kin) say about it. Certainly what you say about sun-drying is essential obtain a good quality Puer tea (and get the require humidity,etc,to allow the puer-kin to develop well). The phenomenon has been discovered relatively recently, during hundreds of years, the teaproducers didn't know there was a Puer-kin and didn't know they introduced it. Your comparison with yogurth is good, in old times, people didn't use any "starter" and that worked because the starter was present in the container for some reason, most bacterias used in food appeared that way, by chance. Here, they happened to store the tea in places where "Puer-kin" was present. That's how I take it when your teacher says it is "not introduced artificially". Now the yogurt bacterias are cultivated and introduced in the milk. And most people consider it's real yogurt. The questions about Puer tea are : -If you introduce the specific bacteria in tea from another place that the Puer area, will they develop with the same effect ? -Is it still Puer ? if not, that's what ? As the objective of drinking tea is not just to get that micro-organism , I'd say we have "Puer tea" (from the Puer area), "puerised tea" from other places and tea not-puerised from the Puer area. A bit like wines that are made with the process of champagnisation, but cannot be Champagne unless they are from that origine (+other conditions), and also wines that have the origine and were not prepared by the process. Kuri |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
Hi Mike,
> I am saying that withering is one of the key differences in the > processing of Puerh. The withering stage is long enough to allow the > enzymatic action to begin again but on a much more subdued scale. Well that's very interesting but the Puer-kin is not an enzyme. It's a sort of bacteria (kin is the Japanese reading of the character for bacterias). > Hence there is more enzymatic action (aka Beasties) Puer-kin are "beasties", but enzymes are not. That took me a while to understand that when I was at highschool. In oolong and red tea there is an enzymatic reaction (oxydation that is also called "fermentation"), and no "beasties". In Puer, there are both enzymes for the oxidation and a specific bacteria for the long-run reaction (that is also called "post-fermentation" but should be "bacterial fermentation" ). 2 different phenomenons. That Puer-kin is naturally living in treebark, and has to be "introduced" into the dried tea leaves. Well, at least that's what they say they do in Xishuangbanna and what the Japanese micro-organism scientists (that are researching the action of that Puer-kin) say about it. Certainly what you say about sun-drying is essential obtain a good quality Puer tea (and get the require humidity,etc,to allow the puer-kin to develop well). The phenomenon has been discovered relatively recently, during hundreds of years, the teaproducers didn't know there was a Puer-kin and didn't know they introduced it. Your comparison with yogurth is good, in old times, people didn't use any "starter" and that worked because the starter was present in the container for some reason, most bacterias used in food appeared that way, by chance. Here, they happened to store the tea in places where "Puer-kin" was present. That's how I take it when your teacher says it is "not introduced artificially". Now the yogurt bacterias are cultivated and introduced in the milk. And most people consider it's real yogurt. The questions about Puer tea are : -If you introduce the specific bacteria in tea from another place that the Puer area, will they develop with the same effect ? -Is it still Puer ? if not, that's what ? As the objective of drinking tea is not just to get that micro-organism , I'd say we have "Puer tea" (from the Puer area), "puerised tea" from other places and tea not-puerised from the Puer area. A bit like wines that are made with the process of champagnisation, but cannot be Champagne unless they are from that origine (+other conditions), and also wines that have the origine and were not prepared by the process. Kuri |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
> > I disagree, it is more than simple semantics. Puerh and Liu An are
> > different teas and come from different base teas. The processing may > > be similar, I really don't know, but the 2 things that make a puerh > > are base tea and processing. Liu An does not satisfy BOTH > > requirements. You will never hear me call Liu An a puerh! They ARE > > "similar" products but this thread is about "What is a Puerh, really" > > and Liu An is NOT really. > > I concede (consede, conseed, conceed, whatever). Sorry, pet peeve, I really do like Liu An but unfortunely just about the only place you see it for sale is on a puerh page and they seldom explain the difference. Can any other readers tell us about how Liu AN is processed? > >>> I am saying that withering is one of the key differences in the > >>> processing of Puerh. The withering stage is long enough to allow the > >>> enzymatic action to begin again but on a much more subdued scale. Tea > >>> leaves have enzymes in their veins. The amount of oxidation depends > >>> upon how much of the enzymes are exposed and for how long. > >>> > >>> Now this enzyme killing stage (step 3, steaming, pan firing, etc) may > >>> very well be a little different than the green counterpart, this could > >>> be one of the differences that the Chinese Factories are reluctant to > >>> talk about. Black tea does not get this enzyme killing stage. > >>> > >>> Green tea is steamed or pan fried to kill the enzymes and then the tea > >>> is typically dried mechanically over a course of minutes, not hours. > >>> The whole green tea process typically only takes a few hours from > >>> start to finish, it is not allowed to wither in the sun for hours/days > >>> so it never has time to start oxidizing again before it was thoroughly > >>> dried. > >>> > >>> Withering can be, and often is, omitted during the production of green > >>> tea, but it is crucial in puerh (also black tea) production. Sun > >>> withering is almost exclusively used for puerh. Withering in the sun > >>> does allow for the return of some enzymatic action because. 1) not all > >>> of the enzymes get killed by pan firing or steaming, and 2) wet > >>> organic matter will begin to oxidize again over the course of the > >>> hours/days until sufficient moisture has dried away. Had the pan > >>> firing not occurred it would have oxidized considerably more rapidly > >>> during this withering stage. > >>> > >>> Hence there is more enzymatic action (aka Beasties) in the process of > >>> making Puerh than there is in the process of making Green Tea. > >> > >> Enzymatic action (aka Beasties)? I thought we were talking about an > >> oxidation process -- interactions with the oxygen of the air causing the > >> leaf to darken. So, the beasties feed on or are encouraged by the enzymes? > >> I'm so confused. (Don't worry; confusion is my life.) > > > > It is the enzymes that react with the oxygen to cause the oxidation. > > Fewer enzymes equals less oxidation. > > > > > OK, I'm with you. So what about the beasties? I was referring to the enzymes as your "beasties". Enzymatic action is the closest thing to "beasties" that you get. If by "beasties" you meant something else like cultures of some microbe/mold/spore or whatever then I am not aware of any such thing. An interesting note, that site you gave me this morning calls "Blue" tea "half fermentation". Our other buddy keeps saying "sun dried blue", this backs up the notion that the withering step is a form of "half fermentation". |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
> > I disagree, it is more than simple semantics. Puerh and Liu An are
> > different teas and come from different base teas. The processing may > > be similar, I really don't know, but the 2 things that make a puerh > > are base tea and processing. Liu An does not satisfy BOTH > > requirements. You will never hear me call Liu An a puerh! They ARE > > "similar" products but this thread is about "What is a Puerh, really" > > and Liu An is NOT really. > > I concede (consede, conseed, conceed, whatever). Sorry, pet peeve, I really do like Liu An but unfortunely just about the only place you see it for sale is on a puerh page and they seldom explain the difference. Can any other readers tell us about how Liu AN is processed? > >>> I am saying that withering is one of the key differences in the > >>> processing of Puerh. The withering stage is long enough to allow the > >>> enzymatic action to begin again but on a much more subdued scale. Tea > >>> leaves have enzymes in their veins. The amount of oxidation depends > >>> upon how much of the enzymes are exposed and for how long. > >>> > >>> Now this enzyme killing stage (step 3, steaming, pan firing, etc) may > >>> very well be a little different than the green counterpart, this could > >>> be one of the differences that the Chinese Factories are reluctant to > >>> talk about. Black tea does not get this enzyme killing stage. > >>> > >>> Green tea is steamed or pan fried to kill the enzymes and then the tea > >>> is typically dried mechanically over a course of minutes, not hours. > >>> The whole green tea process typically only takes a few hours from > >>> start to finish, it is not allowed to wither in the sun for hours/days > >>> so it never has time to start oxidizing again before it was thoroughly > >>> dried. > >>> > >>> Withering can be, and often is, omitted during the production of green > >>> tea, but it is crucial in puerh (also black tea) production. Sun > >>> withering is almost exclusively used for puerh. Withering in the sun > >>> does allow for the return of some enzymatic action because. 1) not all > >>> of the enzymes get killed by pan firing or steaming, and 2) wet > >>> organic matter will begin to oxidize again over the course of the > >>> hours/days until sufficient moisture has dried away. Had the pan > >>> firing not occurred it would have oxidized considerably more rapidly > >>> during this withering stage. > >>> > >>> Hence there is more enzymatic action (aka Beasties) in the process of > >>> making Puerh than there is in the process of making Green Tea. > >> > >> Enzymatic action (aka Beasties)? I thought we were talking about an > >> oxidation process -- interactions with the oxygen of the air causing the > >> leaf to darken. So, the beasties feed on or are encouraged by the enzymes? > >> I'm so confused. (Don't worry; confusion is my life.) > > > > It is the enzymes that react with the oxygen to cause the oxidation. > > Fewer enzymes equals less oxidation. > > > > > OK, I'm with you. So what about the beasties? I was referring to the enzymes as your "beasties". Enzymatic action is the closest thing to "beasties" that you get. If by "beasties" you meant something else like cultures of some microbe/mold/spore or whatever then I am not aware of any such thing. An interesting note, that site you gave me this morning calls "Blue" tea "half fermentation". Our other buddy keeps saying "sun dried blue", this backs up the notion that the withering step is a form of "half fermentation". |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
Kuri, this is great stuff. Do you have any references you can give us
to support this. I have heard rumors of the existence of something like this but have never seen anything concrete to substantiate it. I have spoken with many in China who have told me that nothing like this is introduced. However, these were tea people not scientist. Is "Puerh-Kin" a bona fide name or just a nickname? A quick google did not turn up anything with this name. This "tree-bark", is it from a specific tree? I know that Puerh is often placed on wooden racks after processing; I guess it's possible that bacteria in the wood could spread this way. Please do not take my skepticism personally, I have literally spent years diligently researching this stuff and I have not found anything substantial or verifiable, not a single authoritative text substantiating the "bacteria theory"! These references are as close as I have ever come: TributeTea.com says: "Puerh tea is fermented with mold. When the desired color, aroma, and flavor have developed, the mold is carefully removed to prevent spoiling." but I have not been able to substantiate this claim anywhere else. In an article published in the China post on 8/30/2000 titled "Chinese tea found to lower cholesterol" they refer to puerh as "a special bacteria-fermented Chinese green tea" but they do not elaborate on it at all. There is another brief reference at http://www.terebess.hu/tea/fermantacio.html Another quote I found was "During the withering process some of the leaves are allowed to rot to produce bacteria." Another quote I found was "Pu-erh teas, from the Yunnan province of China, are unique due to a true fermentation, not the oxidization used for other teas. Bacteria may be added to processed green tea leaves that are then placed in damp caves to age for up to 60 years. As a result of this storage, the leaves take on an earthy flavor." Mike >Well that's very interesting but the Puer-kin is not an enzyme. It's a sort >of bacteria (kin is the Japanese reading of the character for bacterias). > >> Hence there is more enzymatic action (aka Beasties) > >Puer-kin are "beasties", but enzymes are not. That took me a while to >understand that when I was at highschool. >In oolong and red tea there is an enzymatic reaction (oxydation that is also >called "fermentation"), and no "beasties". >In Puer, there are both enzymes for the oxidation and a specific bacteria >for the long-run reaction (that is also called "post-fermentation" but >should be "bacterial fermentation" ). 2 different phenomenons. > >That Puer-kin is naturally living in treebark, and has to be "introduced" >into the dried tea leaves. Well, at least that's what they say they do in >Xishuangbanna and what the Japanese micro-organism scientists (that are >researching the action of that Puer-kin) say about it. > >Certainly what you say about sun-drying is essential obtain a good quality >Puer tea (and get the require humidity,etc,to allow the puer-kin to develop >well). >The phenomenon has been discovered relatively recently, during hundreds of >years, the teaproducers didn't know there was a Puer-kin and didn't know >they introduced it. Your comparison with yogurth is good, in old times, >people didn't use any "starter" and that worked because the starter was >present in the container for some reason, most bacterias used in food >appeared that way, by chance. Here, they happened to store the tea in places >where "Puer-kin" was present. That's how I take it when your teacher says it >is "not introduced artificially". > >Now the yogurt bacterias are cultivated and introduced in the milk. And most >people consider it's real yogurt. > >The questions about Puer tea are : >-If you introduce the specific bacteria in tea from another place that the >Puer area, will they develop with the same effect ? >-Is it still Puer ? if not, that's what ? > >As the objective of drinking tea is not just to get that micro-organism , >I'd say we have "Puer tea" (from the Puer area), "puerised tea" from other >places and tea not-puerised from the Puer area. >A bit like wines that are made with the process of champagnisation, but >cannot be Champagne unless they are from that origine (+other conditions), >and also wines that have the origine and were not prepared by the process. Mike Petro http://www.pu-erh.net remove the "filter" in my email address to reply |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
Kuri, this is great stuff. Do you have any references you can give us
to support this. I have heard rumors of the existence of something like this but have never seen anything concrete to substantiate it. I have spoken with many in China who have told me that nothing like this is introduced. However, these were tea people not scientist. Is "Puerh-Kin" a bona fide name or just a nickname? A quick google did not turn up anything with this name. This "tree-bark", is it from a specific tree? I know that Puerh is often placed on wooden racks after processing; I guess it's possible that bacteria in the wood could spread this way. Please do not take my skepticism personally, I have literally spent years diligently researching this stuff and I have not found anything substantial or verifiable, not a single authoritative text substantiating the "bacteria theory"! These references are as close as I have ever come: TributeTea.com says: "Puerh tea is fermented with mold. When the desired color, aroma, and flavor have developed, the mold is carefully removed to prevent spoiling." but I have not been able to substantiate this claim anywhere else. In an article published in the China post on 8/30/2000 titled "Chinese tea found to lower cholesterol" they refer to puerh as "a special bacteria-fermented Chinese green tea" but they do not elaborate on it at all. There is another brief reference at http://www.terebess.hu/tea/fermantacio.html Another quote I found was "During the withering process some of the leaves are allowed to rot to produce bacteria." Another quote I found was "Pu-erh teas, from the Yunnan province of China, are unique due to a true fermentation, not the oxidization used for other teas. Bacteria may be added to processed green tea leaves that are then placed in damp caves to age for up to 60 years. As a result of this storage, the leaves take on an earthy flavor." Mike >Well that's very interesting but the Puer-kin is not an enzyme. It's a sort >of bacteria (kin is the Japanese reading of the character for bacterias). > >> Hence there is more enzymatic action (aka Beasties) > >Puer-kin are "beasties", but enzymes are not. That took me a while to >understand that when I was at highschool. >In oolong and red tea there is an enzymatic reaction (oxydation that is also >called "fermentation"), and no "beasties". >In Puer, there are both enzymes for the oxidation and a specific bacteria >for the long-run reaction (that is also called "post-fermentation" but >should be "bacterial fermentation" ). 2 different phenomenons. > >That Puer-kin is naturally living in treebark, and has to be "introduced" >into the dried tea leaves. Well, at least that's what they say they do in >Xishuangbanna and what the Japanese micro-organism scientists (that are >researching the action of that Puer-kin) say about it. > >Certainly what you say about sun-drying is essential obtain a good quality >Puer tea (and get the require humidity,etc,to allow the puer-kin to develop >well). >The phenomenon has been discovered relatively recently, during hundreds of >years, the teaproducers didn't know there was a Puer-kin and didn't know >they introduced it. Your comparison with yogurth is good, in old times, >people didn't use any "starter" and that worked because the starter was >present in the container for some reason, most bacterias used in food >appeared that way, by chance. Here, they happened to store the tea in places >where "Puer-kin" was present. That's how I take it when your teacher says it >is "not introduced artificially". > >Now the yogurt bacterias are cultivated and introduced in the milk. And most >people consider it's real yogurt. > >The questions about Puer tea are : >-If you introduce the specific bacteria in tea from another place that the >Puer area, will they develop with the same effect ? >-Is it still Puer ? if not, that's what ? > >As the objective of drinking tea is not just to get that micro-organism , >I'd say we have "Puer tea" (from the Puer area), "puerised tea" from other >places and tea not-puerised from the Puer area. >A bit like wines that are made with the process of champagnisation, but >cannot be Champagne unless they are from that origine (+other conditions), >and also wines that have the origine and were not prepared by the process. Mike Petro http://www.pu-erh.net remove the "filter" in my email address to reply |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
Hi Mike,
> Is "Puerh-Kin" a bona fide name or just a nickname? A "nickname" , a shorter name it means litterally "puer + bacteria/microbe". It is probably puer-cha something-kin. There should be a scientific Latin name. > A quick google did > not turn up anything with this name. This "tree-bark", is it from a > specific tree? No idea. That "Puer-kin" is probably native of the rain-forest of South Yunnan. There are other teas with bacterias (Yellow teas for instance), but the Puer-beasties are unique. >I know that Puerh is often placed on wooden racks after > processing; I guess it's possible that bacteria in the wood could > spread this way. Maybe. I was told it is introduced. My little Japanese guidebook of Chinese teas says it used to appear "accidentally" (when they just meant to store the compressed green tea) but is now introduced. I've seen it on TV shows, the kind that explains health benefits of food they interview briefly the researcher and give sometimes over-simplified filmed explanations, but they are not reputed to give fake information. They said "historically" Puer was stored in different ways, sometimes on wooden racks as you say, sometimes buried or as you found placed in damp caves, etc. > Please do not take my skepticism personally, I have literally spent > years diligently researching this stuff and I have not found anything > substantial or verifiable, not a single authoritative text > substantiating the "bacteria theory"! These references are as close as > I have ever come: I understand your doubts. You have already asked on this NG, I have looked for references in English and didn't find any. I didn't even get an accessible version of the scientific research in Japanese. It is sure that research exists. The problem is to read it. There is sort of Iron Wall between the scientists' world and ordinary people like us. It seems a lot of it is in the thesis of : I. Tomila and M. Sano, Laboratory of Health Science in School of Pharmaceutical Sciences at Shizuoka University, Japan That's not the sort of readings you get at the local library or in bookstores. Japanese universities are very closed, you can't do like in the US and Europe, go to any uni library and look for a publication. A friend has tried for 3 years to be allowed to use the library of ethnology of Osaka for her reasearch and they keep saying they'll let her in when she can show a student or teacher card of their attached uni. So unless, that thesis has been published outside the uni world, forget it. By surfing google, I have found that Professor Kanzo Sakata that seem to a be specialist of our musterious beasties : http://www.kuicr.kyoto-u.ac.jp/icr-b...r=sakata+kanzo 1.. Lu I, Sakata K, Guo W,Luo S, All About Dark Tea, A Kind of Mysterious Tea Produced via Microbial Fermentation Process 1 - 8 Food Style 21 6, (4)106-110, (5)142-145, (6)127-129, (7)135-137, (8)139-141, (9)136-139, (10)129-133, (11)128-132, (12)125-128 (2002) 2.. Guo W, Sakata K, Yagi A, Ina K, Luo S, A new venture to prepare chinese black tea from stale green tea Proceedings of the International Symposium on Tea Science, ed. by The Organizing Committee of ISTS, Shizuoka , 42-46 (). 3.. Etoh H, Sakata K, Yagi A, Ina, K Gong L Liu Q, Chemcial change of Pu-erh tea during processing studied by C-13 NMR and GC-MS spectroscopy Proceedings of the International Symposium on Tea Science, ed. by The Organizing Committee of ISTS, Shizuoka , 140-144 (1991). In Google, you'll get dozens of hits in Chinese with : 普洱茶*的麴菌 In Japanese, hundreds of hits with プーアール 菌 (puer + kin) The articles on webpages are not interesting (I didn't check them all...), they only say that exists with no detailed explanation. Well frankly, I don't want to read Sakata's reasearch as that'd be too technical and chemical. Is it possible there is nothing "in between" the one line explanation and the tea-Einstein's thesis ? Kuri |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
Hi Mike,
> Is "Puerh-Kin" a bona fide name or just a nickname? A "nickname" , a shorter name it means litterally "puer + bacteria/microbe". It is probably puer-cha something-kin. There should be a scientific Latin name. > A quick google did > not turn up anything with this name. This "tree-bark", is it from a > specific tree? No idea. That "Puer-kin" is probably native of the rain-forest of South Yunnan. There are other teas with bacterias (Yellow teas for instance), but the Puer-beasties are unique. >I know that Puerh is often placed on wooden racks after > processing; I guess it's possible that bacteria in the wood could > spread this way. Maybe. I was told it is introduced. My little Japanese guidebook of Chinese teas says it used to appear "accidentally" (when they just meant to store the compressed green tea) but is now introduced. I've seen it on TV shows, the kind that explains health benefits of food they interview briefly the researcher and give sometimes over-simplified filmed explanations, but they are not reputed to give fake information. They said "historically" Puer was stored in different ways, sometimes on wooden racks as you say, sometimes buried or as you found placed in damp caves, etc. > Please do not take my skepticism personally, I have literally spent > years diligently researching this stuff and I have not found anything > substantial or verifiable, not a single authoritative text > substantiating the "bacteria theory"! These references are as close as > I have ever come: I understand your doubts. You have already asked on this NG, I have looked for references in English and didn't find any. I didn't even get an accessible version of the scientific research in Japanese. It is sure that research exists. The problem is to read it. There is sort of Iron Wall between the scientists' world and ordinary people like us. It seems a lot of it is in the thesis of : I. Tomila and M. Sano, Laboratory of Health Science in School of Pharmaceutical Sciences at Shizuoka University, Japan That's not the sort of readings you get at the local library or in bookstores. Japanese universities are very closed, you can't do like in the US and Europe, go to any uni library and look for a publication. A friend has tried for 3 years to be allowed to use the library of ethnology of Osaka for her reasearch and they keep saying they'll let her in when she can show a student or teacher card of their attached uni. So unless, that thesis has been published outside the uni world, forget it. By surfing google, I have found that Professor Kanzo Sakata that seem to a be specialist of our musterious beasties : http://www.kuicr.kyoto-u.ac.jp/icr-b...r=sakata+kanzo 1.. Lu I, Sakata K, Guo W,Luo S, All About Dark Tea, A Kind of Mysterious Tea Produced via Microbial Fermentation Process 1 - 8 Food Style 21 6, (4)106-110, (5)142-145, (6)127-129, (7)135-137, (8)139-141, (9)136-139, (10)129-133, (11)128-132, (12)125-128 (2002) 2.. Guo W, Sakata K, Yagi A, Ina K, Luo S, A new venture to prepare chinese black tea from stale green tea Proceedings of the International Symposium on Tea Science, ed. by The Organizing Committee of ISTS, Shizuoka , 42-46 (). 3.. Etoh H, Sakata K, Yagi A, Ina, K Gong L Liu Q, Chemcial change of Pu-erh tea during processing studied by C-13 NMR and GC-MS spectroscopy Proceedings of the International Symposium on Tea Science, ed. by The Organizing Committee of ISTS, Shizuoka , 140-144 (1991). In Google, you'll get dozens of hits in Chinese with : 普洱茶*的麴菌 In Japanese, hundreds of hits with プーアール 菌 (puer + kin) The articles on webpages are not interesting (I didn't check them all...), they only say that exists with no detailed explanation. Well frankly, I don't want to read Sakata's reasearch as that'd be too technical and chemical. Is it possible there is nothing "in between" the one line explanation and the tea-Einstein's thesis ? Kuri |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
>Well frankly, I don't want to read Sakata's reasearch as that'd be too >technical and chemical. Is it possible there is nothing "in between" the one >line explanation and the tea-Einstein's thesis ? Thank you Kuri, I hereby stand corrected and I truly appreciate it. If you run across any other reference PLEASE email me. I will try to muddle through the scientific mumbo jumbo. I really have a need to understand this. I have also confirmed the existence of bacteria with my Chinese mentor last night. Apparently we misunderstood each other when I asked this question the last time. Misunderstandings are common, if you saw our IM conversations you would see that we often struggle with simple concepts. He raised as many questions as he answered but here are some highlights. 1)The bacteria name is "Saccharomycetes" , he didn't know the English translation so he gave me the Chinese characters and I translated it elsewhere. 2)In his words the bacteria is "already in the leaf and already in air. Ripe(black) and raw(green) use same bacteria." 3)"Sometimes" a culture from a previous batch of leaves is introduced into new batch's of Raw puerh. It is ALWAYS introduced to Ripe puerh. 4) This inoculation appears to occur during the withering step. Mike Petro http://www.pu-erh.net remove the "filter" in my email address to reply |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
>Well frankly, I don't want to read Sakata's reasearch as that'd be too >technical and chemical. Is it possible there is nothing "in between" the one >line explanation and the tea-Einstein's thesis ? Thank you Kuri, I hereby stand corrected and I truly appreciate it. If you run across any other reference PLEASE email me. I will try to muddle through the scientific mumbo jumbo. I really have a need to understand this. I have also confirmed the existence of bacteria with my Chinese mentor last night. Apparently we misunderstood each other when I asked this question the last time. Misunderstandings are common, if you saw our IM conversations you would see that we often struggle with simple concepts. He raised as many questions as he answered but here are some highlights. 1)The bacteria name is "Saccharomycetes" , he didn't know the English translation so he gave me the Chinese characters and I translated it elsewhere. 2)In his words the bacteria is "already in the leaf and already in air. Ripe(black) and raw(green) use same bacteria." 3)"Sometimes" a culture from a previous batch of leaves is introduced into new batch's of Raw puerh. It is ALWAYS introduced to Ripe puerh. 4) This inoculation appears to occur during the withering step. Mike Petro http://www.pu-erh.net remove the "filter" in my email address to reply |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
Hi Kuri,
My newsreader didn't understand the encoding, can you please send me those characters in an email? Thank you, Mike On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:44:20 +0900, in rec.food.drink.tea you wrote: >In Google, you'll get dozens of hits in Chinese with : > >??????? > >In Japanese, hundreds of hits with ????? ??(puer + kin) >The articles on webpages are not interesting (I didn't check them all...), >they only say that exists with no detailed explanation. Mike Petro http://www.pu-erh.net remove the "filter" in my email address to reply |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
Hi Kuri,
My newsreader didn't understand the encoding, can you please send me those characters in an email? Thank you, Mike On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:44:20 +0900, in rec.food.drink.tea you wrote: >In Google, you'll get dozens of hits in Chinese with : > >??????? > >In Japanese, hundreds of hits with ????? ??(puer + kin) >The articles on webpages are not interesting (I didn't check them all...), >they only say that exists with no detailed explanation. Mike Petro http://www.pu-erh.net remove the "filter" in my email address to reply |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
"Mike Petro" > wrote in message > My newsreader didn't understand the encoding, can you please send me > those characters in an email? No problem. I should have written it in the title, the encoding of my post was UTF-8 unicode and both Chinese and Japanese fonts are necessary to read the 2 lines in characters. Kuri |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
"Mike Petro" > wrote in message > My newsreader didn't understand the encoding, can you please send me > those characters in an email? No problem. I should have written it in the title, the encoding of my post was UTF-8 unicode and both Chinese and Japanese fonts are necessary to read the 2 lines in characters. Kuri |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
Hi Kuri,
I see the Chinese characters. I see the Japanese character for KIN but nothing for PUER (at least the MS CJK unicode set is free). Something to do on the 4th walking all over Chinatown asking do you have any of this stuff. Another great representative tea post of "asked and answered" without surfing useless urls. I'll also take the picture from the recent Tie Guanyin post and see if I can find that particular brand with it's sexy leaf. If I can't find that brand I'll try some other expensive version and see after all these decades it was my wallet causing the dislike and not my tastebuds. My local tea vendor got some expensive TG I like about $10/100g YOWZER!!! I've been converted and damn the 5th infusion tastes like the first ;-). Jim Mike Petro > wrote in message >. .. > Hi Kuri, > > My newsreader didn't understand the encoding, can you please send me > those characters in an email? > > Thank you, > > Mike > > > On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:44:20 +0900, in rec.food.drink.tea you wrote: > > >In Google, you'll get dozens of hits in Chinese with : > > > >??????? > > > >In Japanese, hundreds of hits with ????? ??(puer + kin) > >The articles on webpages are not interesting (I didn't check them all...), > >they only say that exists with no detailed explanation. |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
Hi Kuri,
I see the Chinese characters. I see the Japanese character for KIN but nothing for PUER (at least the MS CJK unicode set is free). Something to do on the 4th walking all over Chinatown asking do you have any of this stuff. Another great representative tea post of "asked and answered" without surfing useless urls. I'll also take the picture from the recent Tie Guanyin post and see if I can find that particular brand with it's sexy leaf. If I can't find that brand I'll try some other expensive version and see after all these decades it was my wallet causing the dislike and not my tastebuds. My local tea vendor got some expensive TG I like about $10/100g YOWZER!!! I've been converted and damn the 5th infusion tastes like the first ;-). Jim Mike Petro > wrote in message >. .. > Hi Kuri, > > My newsreader didn't understand the encoding, can you please send me > those characters in an email? > > Thank you, > > Mike > > > On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:44:20 +0900, in rec.food.drink.tea you wrote: > > >In Google, you'll get dozens of hits in Chinese with : > > > >??????? > > > >In Japanese, hundreds of hits with ????? ??(puer + kin) > >The articles on webpages are not interesting (I didn't check them all...), > >they only say that exists with no detailed explanation. |
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What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)
Hi Space Cowboy,
> I see the Chinese characters. I see the Japanese character for KIN > but nothing for PUER (at least the MS CJK unicode set is free). It's not in "characters" but in katakana, the phonetic writing Japanese use for foreign words (the second character of puer is not in the standard Japanese fonts, they can't input it). To see it an additional set of fonts is needed. You can probably live without it. That writing is necessary if Mike wants to see the frequency of the puer+kin Japanese pages on google. > I'll also take the > picture from the recent Tie Guanyin post and see if I can find that > particular brand with it's sexy leaf. If I can't find that brand I'll > try some other expensive version and see after all these decades it > was my wallet causing the dislike and not my tastebuds. My local tea > vendor got some expensive TG I like about $10/100g YOWZER!!! I've > been converted and damn the 5th infusion tastes like the first ;-). I have never regretted buying teas that were relatively expensive or even frankly not in my means. It's sure a good product, storage, freshness, and everything has a cost. But that makes a real difference in the cup. Especially for Oolongs that have been mass-produced in abysmal quality. That can be night and day. I've made a strange bargain in Chinatown-shopping. I've found at a discount store Lotus tea in a nice wooden box (with "cha" or "tra" ? pyrograved in Vietnamese calligraphy). It was a old, I knew it, it didn't cost more than an empty box. When I opened it, it looked like and tasted like unflavored cheap black tea, no lotus flavor. Forgot it, but last week I intented to re-use the box for pencils, so I gave a try to the leaves in cold infusion. There was a little miracle : in cold water, the leaves take back their green color and flavor and the lotus fragrance is also revived. It's very refreshing. Great for this season. Kuri |
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