Tea (rec.drink.tea) Discussion relating to tea, the world's second most consumed beverage (after water), made by infusing or boiling the leaves of the tea plant (C. sinensis or close relatives) in water.

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Lewis Perin
 
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Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

Wednesday morning Michael Plant, Joe Kubera, and I drank Puerh
together in New York at Tea Gallery. Winnie Lee was our hostess. We
drank six or eight different Puerhs, but all the others paled by
comparison to a green (uncooked) one from a single old tree.[1]

Whether it was the best Puerh I've ever tasted I can't say: it's just
too hard to summon up taste memories from different times and compare
them accurately. What I can say is that its taste was mellow, rich,
and complex, and that it easily supported a dozen steeps. (Its leaves
were whole and startlingly large, which I suppose makes it
authentically Da Ye, but that wouldn't matter if it hadn't tasted so
good.)

OK, that sounds normal: from an old tree, tea that's been slowly aged
- wonderful! But the fact is, this tea was harvested this spring,
which is to say, it hasn't had time to age, really.

So, if this tea, which is fresher than most so-called fresh greens we
drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs I've ever had, what, then,
is a Puerh?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
[1]How old? Supposedly it's 3700 years old. Obviously, I have no way
to prove that, and honestly, I don't care. Let's not cut that noble
tree down just to count its rings!
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Mike Petro
 
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Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

On 25 Jun 2004 18:15:14 -0400, Lewis Perin > cast
caution to the wind and posted:

>Wednesday morning Michael Plant, Joe Kubera, and I drank Puerh
>together in New York at Tea Gallery. Winnie Lee was our hostess. We
>drank six or eight different Puerhs, but all the others paled by
>comparison to a green (uncooked) one from a single old tree.[1]

snip
>So, if this tea, which is fresher than most so-called fresh greens we
>drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs I've ever had, what, then,
>is a Puerh?


Well Lew, I wont get my samples until next week, and I am waiting
anxiously. I am also curious about the PLA puerh that you guys
sampled, specifically how it compared to the "other" PLA we recently
tried.

How much did a cake of this Wild Old Tree sell for?

As far as your "What is a Puerh" question goes I think maybe you have
tasted one of the rare high quality puerhs that Rippon alluded to some
months back when he said that we seldom see the high qualities here.
My suspicion is that most of the puerh we see, even the old stuff,
pales in comparison to the puerhs being drunk in China. It sounds like
you just got a really good one. Now imagine what that 3700 year old
would taste like if aged in a nice dry room!

I have been conversing directly with some factories and dealers in
mainland China recently and I can honestly say that "aged" puerh over
there commands VERY high prices. My suspicion is that very little REAL
aged quality puerh ever sees our shores. After all if they can get
Thousands of dollars for a single 20 year old cake why would they ever
try to sell it here where we would shun such prices? I have seen other
verifiably "wild old tree" puerhs that sell for $100+ for a current
year spring cake. Again, few of them ever see our shores because there
is little market for them here. Not many Americans are willing to pay
the premium prices that these cakes command in Asia.

BTW, there are a lot of cakes that claim to be "Wild Arbor Old Tree"
puerh but a very large percentage of them are fake. While they are
real puerh they are not "wild old" tree leaf. The problem has gotten
so bad that a big thing now is to send an Inspector to personally
follow the shipment from observing the picking of the leaf all the way
through the various factory processes so that the Inspector can then
certify the authenticity of the base leaf.

I believe Rippon was absolutely correct when he said we never see the
truly great puerhs here, its a supply and demand thing. There is very
little supply of the really good stuff and much much greater demand in
Asia.



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply
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Mike Petro
 
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Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

On 25 Jun 2004 18:15:14 -0400, Lewis Perin > cast
caution to the wind and posted:

>Wednesday morning Michael Plant, Joe Kubera, and I drank Puerh
>together in New York at Tea Gallery. Winnie Lee was our hostess. We
>drank six or eight different Puerhs, but all the others paled by
>comparison to a green (uncooked) one from a single old tree.[1]

snip
>So, if this tea, which is fresher than most so-called fresh greens we
>drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs I've ever had, what, then,
>is a Puerh?


Well Lew, I wont get my samples until next week, and I am waiting
anxiously. I am also curious about the PLA puerh that you guys
sampled, specifically how it compared to the "other" PLA we recently
tried.

How much did a cake of this Wild Old Tree sell for?

As far as your "What is a Puerh" question goes I think maybe you have
tasted one of the rare high quality puerhs that Rippon alluded to some
months back when he said that we seldom see the high qualities here.
My suspicion is that most of the puerh we see, even the old stuff,
pales in comparison to the puerhs being drunk in China. It sounds like
you just got a really good one. Now imagine what that 3700 year old
would taste like if aged in a nice dry room!

I have been conversing directly with some factories and dealers in
mainland China recently and I can honestly say that "aged" puerh over
there commands VERY high prices. My suspicion is that very little REAL
aged quality puerh ever sees our shores. After all if they can get
Thousands of dollars for a single 20 year old cake why would they ever
try to sell it here where we would shun such prices? I have seen other
verifiably "wild old tree" puerhs that sell for $100+ for a current
year spring cake. Again, few of them ever see our shores because there
is little market for them here. Not many Americans are willing to pay
the premium prices that these cakes command in Asia.

BTW, there are a lot of cakes that claim to be "Wild Arbor Old Tree"
puerh but a very large percentage of them are fake. While they are
real puerh they are not "wild old" tree leaf. The problem has gotten
so bad that a big thing now is to send an Inspector to personally
follow the shipment from observing the picking of the leaf all the way
through the various factory processes so that the Inspector can then
certify the authenticity of the base leaf.

I believe Rippon was absolutely correct when he said we never see the
truly great puerhs here, its a supply and demand thing. There is very
little supply of the really good stuff and much much greater demand in
Asia.



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply
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Michael Plant
 
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Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

Lewis 6/25/04

> Wednesday morning Michael Plant, Joe Kubera, and I drank Puerh
> together in New York at Tea Gallery. Winnie Lee was our hostess. We
> drank six or eight different Puerhs, but all the others paled by
> comparison to a green (uncooked) one from a single old tree.[1]
>
> Whether it was the best Puerh I've ever tasted I can't say: it's just
> too hard to summon up taste memories from different times and compare
> them accurately. What I can say is that its taste was mellow, rich,
> and complex, and that it easily supported a dozen steeps. (Its leaves
> were whole and startlingly large, which I suppose makes it
> authentically Da Ye, but that wouldn't matter if it hadn't tasted so
> good.)
>
> OK, that sounds normal: from an old tree, tea that's been slowly aged
> - wonderful! But the fact is, this tea was harvested this spring,
> which is to say, it hasn't had time to age, really.
>
> So, if this tea, which is fresher than most so-called fresh greens we
> drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs I've ever had, what, then,
> is a Puerh?



I think Lew's question is right on the money. Let me add that the tree from
which these biggest-I've-Ever-Seen-Tea-Leaves were plucked is purported to
be 3700 years old. Well, quite possibly so. But we saw pictures of the tree,
and it *is* humungous with a huge trunk. Drinking this tea was an
extraordinary experience. Nor can I figure out what makes Pu-erh Pu-erh.

Michael

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Michael Plant
 
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Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

Lewis 6/25/04

> Wednesday morning Michael Plant, Joe Kubera, and I drank Puerh
> together in New York at Tea Gallery. Winnie Lee was our hostess. We
> drank six or eight different Puerhs, but all the others paled by
> comparison to a green (uncooked) one from a single old tree.[1]
>
> Whether it was the best Puerh I've ever tasted I can't say: it's just
> too hard to summon up taste memories from different times and compare
> them accurately. What I can say is that its taste was mellow, rich,
> and complex, and that it easily supported a dozen steeps. (Its leaves
> were whole and startlingly large, which I suppose makes it
> authentically Da Ye, but that wouldn't matter if it hadn't tasted so
> good.)
>
> OK, that sounds normal: from an old tree, tea that's been slowly aged
> - wonderful! But the fact is, this tea was harvested this spring,
> which is to say, it hasn't had time to age, really.
>
> So, if this tea, which is fresher than most so-called fresh greens we
> drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs I've ever had, what, then,
> is a Puerh?



I think Lew's question is right on the money. Let me add that the tree from
which these biggest-I've-Ever-Seen-Tea-Leaves were plucked is purported to
be 3700 years old. Well, quite possibly so. But we saw pictures of the tree,
and it *is* humungous with a huge trunk. Drinking this tea was an
extraordinary experience. Nor can I figure out what makes Pu-erh Pu-erh.

Michael



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Michael Plant
 
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Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

Michael /26/04


> Lewis 6/25/04
>
>> Wednesday morning Michael Plant, Joe Kubera, and I drank Puerh
>> together in New York at Tea Gallery. Winnie Lee was our hostess. We
>> drank six or eight different Puerhs, but all the others paled by
>> comparison to a green (uncooked) one from a single old tree.[1]
>>
>> Whether it was the best Puerh I've ever tasted I can't say: it's just
>> too hard to summon up taste memories from different times and compare
>> them accurately. What I can say is that its taste was mellow, rich,
>> and complex, and that it easily supported a dozen steeps. (Its leaves
>> were whole and startlingly large, which I suppose makes it
>> authentically Da Ye, but that wouldn't matter if it hadn't tasted so
>> good.)
>>
>> OK, that sounds normal: from an old tree, tea that's been slowly aged
>> - wonderful! But the fact is, this tea was harvested this spring,
>> which is to say, it hasn't had time to age, really.
>>
>> So, if this tea, which is fresher than most so-called fresh greens we
>> drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs I've ever had, what, then,
>> is a Puerh?

>
>
> I think Lew's question is right on the money. Let me add that the tree from
> which these biggest-I've-Ever-Seen-Tea-Leaves were plucked is purported to
> be 3700 years old. Well, quite possibly so. But we saw pictures of the tree,
> and it *is* humungous with a huge trunk. Drinking this tea was an
> extraordinary experience. Nor can I figure out what makes Pu-erh Pu-erh.
>
> Michael
>



Let me add nothing that Lew didn't already note. Sorry.

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Michael Plant
 
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Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

Michael /26/04


> Lewis 6/25/04
>
>> Wednesday morning Michael Plant, Joe Kubera, and I drank Puerh
>> together in New York at Tea Gallery. Winnie Lee was our hostess. We
>> drank six or eight different Puerhs, but all the others paled by
>> comparison to a green (uncooked) one from a single old tree.[1]
>>
>> Whether it was the best Puerh I've ever tasted I can't say: it's just
>> too hard to summon up taste memories from different times and compare
>> them accurately. What I can say is that its taste was mellow, rich,
>> and complex, and that it easily supported a dozen steeps. (Its leaves
>> were whole and startlingly large, which I suppose makes it
>> authentically Da Ye, but that wouldn't matter if it hadn't tasted so
>> good.)
>>
>> OK, that sounds normal: from an old tree, tea that's been slowly aged
>> - wonderful! But the fact is, this tea was harvested this spring,
>> which is to say, it hasn't had time to age, really.
>>
>> So, if this tea, which is fresher than most so-called fresh greens we
>> drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs I've ever had, what, then,
>> is a Puerh?

>
>
> I think Lew's question is right on the money. Let me add that the tree from
> which these biggest-I've-Ever-Seen-Tea-Leaves were plucked is purported to
> be 3700 years old. Well, quite possibly so. But we saw pictures of the tree,
> and it *is* humungous with a huge trunk. Drinking this tea was an
> extraordinary experience. Nor can I figure out what makes Pu-erh Pu-erh.
>
> Michael
>



Let me add nothing that Lew didn't already note. Sorry.

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Lewis Perin
 
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Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

Mike Petro > writes:

> On 25 Jun 2004 18:15:14 -0400, Lewis Perin > cast
> caution to the wind and posted:
>
> >Wednesday morning Michael Plant, Joe Kubera, and I drank Puerh
> >together in New York at Tea Gallery. Winnie Lee was our hostess. We
> >drank six or eight different Puerhs, but all the others paled by
> >comparison to a green (uncooked) one from a single old tree.[1]

> snip
> >So, if this tea, which is fresher than most so-called fresh greens we
> >drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs I've ever had, what, then,
> >is a Puerh?

>
> Well Lew, I wont get my samples until next week, and I am waiting
> anxiously. I am also curious about the PLA puerh that you guys
> sampled, specifically how it compared to the "other" PLA we recently
> tried.


It was better, but I could live without it. That granted, the obvious
question is whether the two bricks could possibly be from the same
heterogeneous batch or not. The answer: who knows?

> How much did a cake of this Wild Old Tree sell for?


Lots. I think it came to $30 an ounce.

> As far as your "What is a Puerh" question goes I think maybe you have
> tasted one of the rare high quality puerhs that Rippon alluded to some
> months back when he said that we seldom see the high qualities here.
> My suspicion is that most of the puerh we see, even the old stuff,
> pales in comparison to the puerhs being drunk in China. It sounds like
> you just got a really good one. Now imagine what that 3700 year old
> would taste like if aged in a nice dry room!


I'm trying to imagine, and I'm coming up empty, which was kind of the
point of my original post. In my limited experience with Puerh so
far, it seems as if the effect of age has been fairly puny compared to
the effect of - presumably - the underlying quality of the leaf.

> I have been conversing directly with some factories and dealers in
> mainland China recently and I can honestly say that "aged" puerh over
> there commands VERY high prices. My suspicion is that very little REAL
> aged quality puerh ever sees our shores. After all if they can get
> Thousands of dollars for a single 20 year old cake why would they ever
> try to sell it here where we would shun such prices? I have seen other
> verifiably "wild old tree" puerhs that sell for $100+ for a current
> year spring cake. Again, few of them ever see our shores because there
> is little market for them here. Not many Americans are willing to pay
> the premium prices that these cakes command in Asia.


If I could buy the new cake we tasted Wednesday for $100 I'd do it in
a heartbeat. Have you tasted any of these pedigreed $100 bingchas?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
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Lewis Perin
 
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Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

Mike Petro > writes:

> On 25 Jun 2004 18:15:14 -0400, Lewis Perin > cast
> caution to the wind and posted:
>
> >Wednesday morning Michael Plant, Joe Kubera, and I drank Puerh
> >together in New York at Tea Gallery. Winnie Lee was our hostess. We
> >drank six or eight different Puerhs, but all the others paled by
> >comparison to a green (uncooked) one from a single old tree.[1]

> snip
> >So, if this tea, which is fresher than most so-called fresh greens we
> >drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs I've ever had, what, then,
> >is a Puerh?

>
> Well Lew, I wont get my samples until next week, and I am waiting
> anxiously. I am also curious about the PLA puerh that you guys
> sampled, specifically how it compared to the "other" PLA we recently
> tried.


It was better, but I could live without it. That granted, the obvious
question is whether the two bricks could possibly be from the same
heterogeneous batch or not. The answer: who knows?

> How much did a cake of this Wild Old Tree sell for?


Lots. I think it came to $30 an ounce.

> As far as your "What is a Puerh" question goes I think maybe you have
> tasted one of the rare high quality puerhs that Rippon alluded to some
> months back when he said that we seldom see the high qualities here.
> My suspicion is that most of the puerh we see, even the old stuff,
> pales in comparison to the puerhs being drunk in China. It sounds like
> you just got a really good one. Now imagine what that 3700 year old
> would taste like if aged in a nice dry room!


I'm trying to imagine, and I'm coming up empty, which was kind of the
point of my original post. In my limited experience with Puerh so
far, it seems as if the effect of age has been fairly puny compared to
the effect of - presumably - the underlying quality of the leaf.

> I have been conversing directly with some factories and dealers in
> mainland China recently and I can honestly say that "aged" puerh over
> there commands VERY high prices. My suspicion is that very little REAL
> aged quality puerh ever sees our shores. After all if they can get
> Thousands of dollars for a single 20 year old cake why would they ever
> try to sell it here where we would shun such prices? I have seen other
> verifiably "wild old tree" puerhs that sell for $100+ for a current
> year spring cake. Again, few of them ever see our shores because there
> is little market for them here. Not many Americans are willing to pay
> the premium prices that these cakes command in Asia.


If I could buy the new cake we tasted Wednesday for $100 I'd do it in
a heartbeat. Have you tasted any of these pedigreed $100 bingchas?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
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Jon Nossen
 
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Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

Couldn't this be a misunderstanding; that the tea was not
plucked, but rather "excavated" this spring? That the ageing
process was stopped?

Jon

"Lewis Perin" > wrote...
> OK, that sounds normal: from an old tree, tea that's been

slowly aged
> - wonderful! But the fact is, this tea was harvested this

spring,
> which is to say, it hasn't had time to age, really.
>
> So, if this tea, which is fresher than most so-called fresh

greens we
> drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs I've ever had, what,

then,
> is a Puerh?





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Jon Nossen
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

Couldn't this be a misunderstanding; that the tea was not
plucked, but rather "excavated" this spring? That the ageing
process was stopped?

Jon

"Lewis Perin" > wrote...
> OK, that sounds normal: from an old tree, tea that's been

slowly aged
> - wonderful! But the fact is, this tea was harvested this

spring,
> which is to say, it hasn't had time to age, really.
>
> So, if this tea, which is fresher than most so-called fresh

greens we
> drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs I've ever had, what,

then,
> is a Puerh?



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Lewis Perin
 
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Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

"Jon Nossen" > writes:
>
> "Lewis Perin" > wrote...
> > OK, that sounds normal: from an old tree, tea that's been slowly
> > aged - wonderful! But the fact is, this tea was harvested this
> > spring, which is to say, it hasn't had time to age, really.
> >
> > So, if this tea, which is fresher than most so-called fresh greens
> > we drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs I've ever had, what,
> > then, is a Puerh?

>
> Couldn't this be a misunderstanding; that the tea was not
> plucked, but rather "excavated" this spring? That the ageing
> process was stopped?


No. The leaves in the cake didn't look remotely like what you see in
an aged bingcha. They looked like leaves from a month or two ago that
hadn't been kept away from the air.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
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Lewis Perin
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

"Jon Nossen" > writes:
>
> "Lewis Perin" > wrote...
> > OK, that sounds normal: from an old tree, tea that's been slowly
> > aged - wonderful! But the fact is, this tea was harvested this
> > spring, which is to say, it hasn't had time to age, really.
> >
> > So, if this tea, which is fresher than most so-called fresh greens
> > we drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs I've ever had, what,
> > then, is a Puerh?

>
> Couldn't this be a misunderstanding; that the tea was not
> plucked, but rather "excavated" this spring? That the ageing
> process was stopped?


No. The leaves in the cake didn't look remotely like what you see in
an aged bingcha. They looked like leaves from a month or two ago that
hadn't been kept away from the air.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
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Mike Petro
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

>> So, if this tea, which is fresher than most so-called fresh greens we
>> drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs I've ever had, what, then,
>> is a Puerh?


>I think Lew's question is right on the money.

snip
> Nor can I figure out what makes Pu-erh Pu-erh.



Technically Puerh is tea from the Yunnan large leaf varieties of the
tea plant that is processed in the traditional methods, see my site
for specific processing steps. The "tea variety/traditional
processing" is what makes a puerh a puerh. Within this broad group are
a multitude of variables that can make distinctly different tasting
products. The "natural oxidation" process is what "ages" puerh and
improves it. What you guys experienced what an outstanding "base tea"
that was "processed" into puerh. To my knowledge they do not process
these "wild old" trees any other way presumably because the value when
processed as puerh exceeds other methods, though I have seen regular
Yunnan large leaf blacks before.

BTW, I have independent confirmation about the Tea Master who has
contracted all of the tea from this 3700 year old tree. My buddy in
China confirmed the existence and is rather jealous because he has
never been able to get a hold of a sample.

Lew, I have tasted some of these $100+ cakes but let me taste these
upcoming samples and I will let you know if they compare. I suspect
not as these pedigreed cakes I have tasted where from trees that were
quite old but still less than 1000 years old.


Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply
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Mike Petro
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

>> So, if this tea, which is fresher than most so-called fresh greens we
>> drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs I've ever had, what, then,
>> is a Puerh?


>I think Lew's question is right on the money.

snip
> Nor can I figure out what makes Pu-erh Pu-erh.



Technically Puerh is tea from the Yunnan large leaf varieties of the
tea plant that is processed in the traditional methods, see my site
for specific processing steps. The "tea variety/traditional
processing" is what makes a puerh a puerh. Within this broad group are
a multitude of variables that can make distinctly different tasting
products. The "natural oxidation" process is what "ages" puerh and
improves it. What you guys experienced what an outstanding "base tea"
that was "processed" into puerh. To my knowledge they do not process
these "wild old" trees any other way presumably because the value when
processed as puerh exceeds other methods, though I have seen regular
Yunnan large leaf blacks before.

BTW, I have independent confirmation about the Tea Master who has
contracted all of the tea from this 3700 year old tree. My buddy in
China confirmed the existence and is rather jealous because he has
never been able to get a hold of a sample.

Lew, I have tasted some of these $100+ cakes but let me taste these
upcoming samples and I will let you know if they compare. I suspect
not as these pedigreed cakes I have tasted where from trees that were
quite old but still less than 1000 years old.


Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply


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Michael Plant
 
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Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

Lewis 6/26/04

> Mike Petro > writes:
>
>> On 25 Jun 2004 18:15:14 -0400, Lewis Perin > cast
>> caution to the wind and posted:
>>
>>> Wednesday morning Michael Plant, Joe Kubera, and I drank Puerh
>>> together in New York at Tea Gallery. Winnie Lee was our hostess. We
>>> drank six or eight different Puerhs, but all the others paled by
>>> comparison to a green (uncooked) one from a single old tree.[1]

>> snip
>>> So, if this tea, which is fresher than most so-called fresh greens we
>>> drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs I've ever had, what, then,
>>> is a Puerh?

>>
>> Well Lew, I wont get my samples until next week, and I am waiting
>> anxiously. I am also curious about the PLA puerh that you guys
>> sampled, specifically how it compared to the "other" PLA we recently
>> tried.

>
> It was better, but I could live without it. That granted, the obvious
> question is whether the two bricks could possibly be from the same
> heterogeneous batch or not. The answer: who knows?


If I could add my two cents here, I agree with Lew, but this tea lacked the
bitter quality of the former and so it was far better. I would not buy it
since tea of so much better quality is available for less money.
>
>> How much did a cake of this Wild Old Tree sell for?

>
> Lots. I think it came to $30 an ounce.


I have reason to believe that this is a very kind price.
>
>> As far as your "What is a Puerh" question goes I think maybe you have
>> tasted one of the rare high quality puerhs that Rippon alluded to some
>> months back when he said that we seldom see the high qualities here.
>> My suspicion is that most of the puerh we see, even the old stuff,
>> pales in comparison to the puerhs being drunk in China. It sounds like
>> you just got a really good one. Now imagine what that 3700 year old
>> would taste like if aged in a nice dry room!

>
> I'm trying to imagine, and I'm coming up empty, which was kind of the
> point of my original post. In my limited experience with Puerh so
> far, it seems as if the effect of age has been fairly puny compared to
> the effect of - presumably - the underlying quality of the leaf.


This tea has a distinct fruit all its own along with the camphor -- no, I
don't really know what I mean by "camphor" -- which is more muted here than
in more usual Puerh. It carries through bunches of steeps and remains pretty
consistent throughout. (Camphor: Maybe the "smokiness" unique to puerh IME).
Flavor and aroma are consistent with one another, rich and gorgeous. I'm
going to try again, but I seem to recall that the mouth feel was thinner
than I might expect from it later on. God willing and the crik dont rize
we'll be drinking it over the years and will report periodically to this
august teabody.

As for the age and beauty correlation question, I'm not sure yet. I've been
drinking lots of Pu-erhs, but I'm still awaiting some side-by-side tastings
before making up my mind. Teas I've been drinking between 5 and 10 years old
have been among my favorites. Those I've tried that are between 20 and 55
years old have been far from my favorites, some just bad. What does that
mean? Most of the new Pu-erhs I've tried have been mundane with the latest
from the 3700 year old tree being a notable and noteworthy exception.
>
>> I have been conversing directly with some factories and dealers in
>> mainland China recently and I can honestly say that "aged" puerh over
>> there commands VERY high prices. My suspicion is that very little REAL
>> aged quality puerh ever sees our shores. After all if they can get
>> Thousands of dollars for a single 20 year old cake why would they ever
>> try to sell it here where we would shun such prices? I have seen other
>> verifiably "wild old tree" puerhs that sell for $100+ for a current
>> year spring cake. Again, few of them ever see our shores because there
>> is little market for them here. Not many Americans are willing to pay
>> the premium prices that these cakes command in Asia.

>
> If I could buy the new cake we tasted Wednesday for $100 I'd do it in
> a heartbeat. Have you tasted any of these pedigreed $100 bingchas?


How pedigreed are we talking? Do we have certified trees to look at? How
old might they be? I realize that these questions are secondary to the
taste and aroma of the tea, but I'm curious. (I've seen many pu-erh cakes
advertised as "wild old tree," but without further available information.

I'm going to try to get more information about the production of "our"
Pu-erh, but I don't *think* it was made in a large mass production factory,
although I can't say for sure at this point.

Michael




  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

Lewis 6/26/04

> Mike Petro > writes:
>
>> On 25 Jun 2004 18:15:14 -0400, Lewis Perin > cast
>> caution to the wind and posted:
>>
>>> Wednesday morning Michael Plant, Joe Kubera, and I drank Puerh
>>> together in New York at Tea Gallery. Winnie Lee was our hostess. We
>>> drank six or eight different Puerhs, but all the others paled by
>>> comparison to a green (uncooked) one from a single old tree.[1]

>> snip
>>> So, if this tea, which is fresher than most so-called fresh greens we
>>> drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs I've ever had, what, then,
>>> is a Puerh?

>>
>> Well Lew, I wont get my samples until next week, and I am waiting
>> anxiously. I am also curious about the PLA puerh that you guys
>> sampled, specifically how it compared to the "other" PLA we recently
>> tried.

>
> It was better, but I could live without it. That granted, the obvious
> question is whether the two bricks could possibly be from the same
> heterogeneous batch or not. The answer: who knows?


If I could add my two cents here, I agree with Lew, but this tea lacked the
bitter quality of the former and so it was far better. I would not buy it
since tea of so much better quality is available for less money.
>
>> How much did a cake of this Wild Old Tree sell for?

>
> Lots. I think it came to $30 an ounce.


I have reason to believe that this is a very kind price.
>
>> As far as your "What is a Puerh" question goes I think maybe you have
>> tasted one of the rare high quality puerhs that Rippon alluded to some
>> months back when he said that we seldom see the high qualities here.
>> My suspicion is that most of the puerh we see, even the old stuff,
>> pales in comparison to the puerhs being drunk in China. It sounds like
>> you just got a really good one. Now imagine what that 3700 year old
>> would taste like if aged in a nice dry room!

>
> I'm trying to imagine, and I'm coming up empty, which was kind of the
> point of my original post. In my limited experience with Puerh so
> far, it seems as if the effect of age has been fairly puny compared to
> the effect of - presumably - the underlying quality of the leaf.


This tea has a distinct fruit all its own along with the camphor -- no, I
don't really know what I mean by "camphor" -- which is more muted here than
in more usual Puerh. It carries through bunches of steeps and remains pretty
consistent throughout. (Camphor: Maybe the "smokiness" unique to puerh IME).
Flavor and aroma are consistent with one another, rich and gorgeous. I'm
going to try again, but I seem to recall that the mouth feel was thinner
than I might expect from it later on. God willing and the crik dont rize
we'll be drinking it over the years and will report periodically to this
august teabody.

As for the age and beauty correlation question, I'm not sure yet. I've been
drinking lots of Pu-erhs, but I'm still awaiting some side-by-side tastings
before making up my mind. Teas I've been drinking between 5 and 10 years old
have been among my favorites. Those I've tried that are between 20 and 55
years old have been far from my favorites, some just bad. What does that
mean? Most of the new Pu-erhs I've tried have been mundane with the latest
from the 3700 year old tree being a notable and noteworthy exception.
>
>> I have been conversing directly with some factories and dealers in
>> mainland China recently and I can honestly say that "aged" puerh over
>> there commands VERY high prices. My suspicion is that very little REAL
>> aged quality puerh ever sees our shores. After all if they can get
>> Thousands of dollars for a single 20 year old cake why would they ever
>> try to sell it here where we would shun such prices? I have seen other
>> verifiably "wild old tree" puerhs that sell for $100+ for a current
>> year spring cake. Again, few of them ever see our shores because there
>> is little market for them here. Not many Americans are willing to pay
>> the premium prices that these cakes command in Asia.

>
> If I could buy the new cake we tasted Wednesday for $100 I'd do it in
> a heartbeat. Have you tasted any of these pedigreed $100 bingchas?


How pedigreed are we talking? Do we have certified trees to look at? How
old might they be? I realize that these questions are secondary to the
taste and aroma of the tea, but I'm curious. (I've seen many pu-erh cakes
advertised as "wild old tree," but without further available information.

I'm going to try to get more information about the production of "our"
Pu-erh, but I don't *think* it was made in a large mass production factory,
although I can't say for sure at this point.

Michael




  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

Mike 6/28/04


>>> So, if this tea, which is fresher than most so-called fresh greens we
>>> drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs I've ever had, what, then,
>>> is a Puerh?

>
>> I think Lew's question is right on the money.

> snip
>> Nor can I figure out what makes Pu-erh Pu-erh.

>
>
> Technically Puerh is tea from the Yunnan large leaf varieties of the
> tea plant that is processed in the traditional methods, see my site
> for specific processing steps. The "tea variety/traditional
> processing" is what makes a puerh a puerh. Within this broad group are
> a multitude of variables that can make distinctly different tasting
> products. The "natural oxidation" process is what "ages" puerh and
> improves it.


Have we given up on the beastie theory? I'll check out your site again.
Meanwhile Mike, why not place the site URL as part of your signature block
the way Lew places Babelcarp's homebase? It would be very helpful.

>What you guys experienced what an outstanding "base tea"
> that was "processed" into puerh. To my knowledge they do not process
> these "wild old" trees any other way presumably because the value when
> processed as puerh exceeds other methods, though I have seen regular
> Yunnan large leaf blacks before.


> BTW, I have independent confirmation about the Tea Master who has
> contracted all of the tea from this 3700 year old tree. My buddy in
> China confirmed the existence and is rather jealous because he has
> never been able to get a hold of a sample.


If he has a house to mortgage or a child to sell, I would part with part of
my sample. Actually, we could discuss this more seriously off-group. I do
have some and enough to share. I'm glad to hear the confirmation.
>
> Lew, I have tasted some of these $100+ cakes but let me taste these
> upcoming samples and I will let you know if they compare. I suspect
> not as these pedigreed cakes I have tasted where from trees that were
> quite old but still less than 1000 years old.


I'm going to hazzard a guess here, go out on a limb, based on absolutely
nothing, and say that I really don't think that a tree let us say 800 years
old is going to produce a tea significantly different from a tea from a tree
three or four times its age, all other things being equal. Why do I think
so? Just seems that way to me. (Conversely, tea from each tree will be
different given soil, micro-climate, and other individual conditions.)

Michael

  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

Mike 6/28/04


>>> So, if this tea, which is fresher than most so-called fresh greens we
>>> drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs I've ever had, what, then,
>>> is a Puerh?

>
>> I think Lew's question is right on the money.

> snip
>> Nor can I figure out what makes Pu-erh Pu-erh.

>
>
> Technically Puerh is tea from the Yunnan large leaf varieties of the
> tea plant that is processed in the traditional methods, see my site
> for specific processing steps. The "tea variety/traditional
> processing" is what makes a puerh a puerh. Within this broad group are
> a multitude of variables that can make distinctly different tasting
> products. The "natural oxidation" process is what "ages" puerh and
> improves it.


Have we given up on the beastie theory? I'll check out your site again.
Meanwhile Mike, why not place the site URL as part of your signature block
the way Lew places Babelcarp's homebase? It would be very helpful.

>What you guys experienced what an outstanding "base tea"
> that was "processed" into puerh. To my knowledge they do not process
> these "wild old" trees any other way presumably because the value when
> processed as puerh exceeds other methods, though I have seen regular
> Yunnan large leaf blacks before.


> BTW, I have independent confirmation about the Tea Master who has
> contracted all of the tea from this 3700 year old tree. My buddy in
> China confirmed the existence and is rather jealous because he has
> never been able to get a hold of a sample.


If he has a house to mortgage or a child to sell, I would part with part of
my sample. Actually, we could discuss this more seriously off-group. I do
have some and enough to share. I'm glad to hear the confirmation.
>
> Lew, I have tasted some of these $100+ cakes but let me taste these
> upcoming samples and I will let you know if they compare. I suspect
> not as these pedigreed cakes I have tasted where from trees that were
> quite old but still less than 1000 years old.


I'm going to hazzard a guess here, go out on a limb, based on absolutely
nothing, and say that I really don't think that a tree let us say 800 years
old is going to produce a tea significantly different from a tea from a tree
three or four times its age, all other things being equal. Why do I think
so? Just seems that way to me. (Conversely, tea from each tree will be
different given soil, micro-climate, and other individual conditions.)

Michael

  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

A few comments:

1. The oldest tea tree in Yunnan (and the world)
is only 2700 year old. It was awarded a Shanghai
Guinness World of Record. It is now under the
guardiance of Mr. Lee Rie-Ho and his Ten Ren tea
company.

2. Teas from the six tea moutains have different
characteristics. Some are sweeter, some have
stronger aroma...

3. Like other teas, early spring leaves are the
best for making Pu-erh. Regardless the leaf
varieties, fresh leaves have to grow from tiny
to large. When you only have a very short period
of time to grow (early Spring), how large a
young leave can be? 4-5cm the most.

Linda


> Mike

6/
28/04
>
>
> >>> So, if this tea, which is fresher than

most so-called fresh greens we
> >>> drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs

I've ever had, what, then,
> >>> is a Puerh?

> >
> >> I think Lew's question is right on the

money.
> > snip
> >> Nor can I figure out what makes Pu-erh Pu-

erh.
> >
> >
> > Technically Puerh is tea from the Yunnan

large leaf varieties of the
> > tea plant that is processed in the

traditional methods, see my site
> > for specific processing steps. The "tea

variety/traditional
> > processing" is what makes a puerh a puerh.

Within this broad group are
> > a multitude of variables that can make

distinctly different tasting
> > products. The "natural oxidation" process is

what "ages" puerh and
> > improves it.

>
> Have we given up on the beastie theory? I'll

check out your site again.
> Meanwhile Mike, why not place the site URL as

part of your signature block
> the way Lew places Babelcarp's homebase? It

would be very helpful.
>
> >What you guys experienced what an

outstanding "base tea"
> > that was "processed" into puerh. To my

knowledge they do not process
> > these "wild old" trees any other way

presumably because the value when
> > processed as puerh exceeds other methods,

though I have seen regular
> > Yunnan large leaf blacks before.

>
> > BTW, I have independent confirmation about

the Tea Master who has
> > contracted all of the tea from this 3700

year old tree. My buddy in
> > China confirmed the existence and is rather

jealous because he has
> > never been able to get a hold of a sample.

>
> If he has a house to mortgage or a child to

sell, I would part with part of
> my sample. Actually, we could discuss this

more seriously off-group. I do
> have some and enough to share. I'm glad to

hear the confirmation.
> >
> > Lew, I have tasted some of these $100+ cakes

but let me taste these
> > upcoming samples and I will let you know if

they compare. I suspect
> > not as these pedigreed cakes I have tasted

where from trees that were
> > quite old but still less than 1000 years old.

>
> I'm going to hazzard a guess here, go out on a

limb, based on absolutely
> nothing, and say that I really don't think

that a tree let us say 800 years
> old is going to produce a tea significantly

different from a tea from a tree
> three or four times its age, all other things

being equal. Why do I think
> so? Just seems that way to me. (Conversely,

tea from each tree will be
> different given soil, micro-climate, and other

individual conditions.)
>
> Michael
>
>





  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

A few comments:

1. The oldest tea tree in Yunnan (and the world)
is only 2700 year old. It was awarded a Shanghai
Guinness World of Record. It is now under the
guardiance of Mr. Lee Rie-Ho and his Ten Ren tea
company.

2. Teas from the six tea moutains have different
characteristics. Some are sweeter, some have
stronger aroma...

3. Like other teas, early spring leaves are the
best for making Pu-erh. Regardless the leaf
varieties, fresh leaves have to grow from tiny
to large. When you only have a very short period
of time to grow (early Spring), how large a
young leave can be? 4-5cm the most.

Linda


> Mike

6/
28/04
>
>
> >>> So, if this tea, which is fresher than

most so-called fresh greens we
> >>> drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs

I've ever had, what, then,
> >>> is a Puerh?

> >
> >> I think Lew's question is right on the

money.
> > snip
> >> Nor can I figure out what makes Pu-erh Pu-

erh.
> >
> >
> > Technically Puerh is tea from the Yunnan

large leaf varieties of the
> > tea plant that is processed in the

traditional methods, see my site
> > for specific processing steps. The "tea

variety/traditional
> > processing" is what makes a puerh a puerh.

Within this broad group are
> > a multitude of variables that can make

distinctly different tasting
> > products. The "natural oxidation" process is

what "ages" puerh and
> > improves it.

>
> Have we given up on the beastie theory? I'll

check out your site again.
> Meanwhile Mike, why not place the site URL as

part of your signature block
> the way Lew places Babelcarp's homebase? It

would be very helpful.
>
> >What you guys experienced what an

outstanding "base tea"
> > that was "processed" into puerh. To my

knowledge they do not process
> > these "wild old" trees any other way

presumably because the value when
> > processed as puerh exceeds other methods,

though I have seen regular
> > Yunnan large leaf blacks before.

>
> > BTW, I have independent confirmation about

the Tea Master who has
> > contracted all of the tea from this 3700

year old tree. My buddy in
> > China confirmed the existence and is rather

jealous because he has
> > never been able to get a hold of a sample.

>
> If he has a house to mortgage or a child to

sell, I would part with part of
> my sample. Actually, we could discuss this

more seriously off-group. I do
> have some and enough to share. I'm glad to

hear the confirmation.
> >
> > Lew, I have tasted some of these $100+ cakes

but let me taste these
> > upcoming samples and I will let you know if

they compare. I suspect
> > not as these pedigreed cakes I have tasted

where from trees that were
> > quite old but still less than 1000 years old.

>
> I'm going to hazzard a guess here, go out on a

limb, based on absolutely
> nothing, and say that I really don't think

that a tree let us say 800 years
> old is going to produce a tea significantly

different from a tea from a tree
> three or four times its age, all other things

being equal. Why do I think
> so? Just seems that way to me. (Conversely,

tea from each tree will be
> different given soil, micro-climate, and other

individual conditions.)
>
> Michael
>
>



  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

Linda,

Interesting comments you made. I've interspersed questions below which I
hope you will help us by answering.

[Linda]
> A few comments:
> 1. The oldest tea tree in Yunnan (and the world)
> is only 2700 year old. It was awarded a Shanghai
> Guinness World of Record. It is now under the
> guardiance of Mr. Lee Rie-Ho and his Ten Ren tea
> company.


How is the age of this tree verified? How is the age of any really old tea
tree verified? I think there *might* be a tree that you were not aware of.
Is that possible?
>

[Linda]
> 2. Teas from the six tea moutains have different
> characteristics. Some are sweeter, some have
> stronger aroma...


To help us, could you be a little more specific about these "six tea
mountains"? What are their names in Chinese and in English? What in your
view causes the differences you mentioned? Soil? Tree variety? Other?
>

[Linda]
> 3. Like other teas, early spring leaves are the
> best for making Pu-erh. Regardless the leaf
> varieties, fresh leaves have to grow from tiny
> to large. When you only have a very short period
> of time to grow (early Spring), how large a
> young leave can be? 4-5cm the most.


I am not doubting you, but wouldn't the case of Oolongs such as Tie Guan Yin
be a reasonable exception because the leaves must undergo such profound
manipulation and processing? Wouldn't an Oolong leaf have to be strong to
weather this treatment and handling? Isn't a "rubbery" -- that is a
resilient and strong somewhat OLDER leaf -- best for Oolong production?

Further, 5 cm is about 2 inches, which is already pretty big. Nobody
suggested that truly old leaves are used from the "large leaf" varietals to
produce Pu-erh. The young leaf used for a Bi Lo Chun for example is a
different level of "young" than the appropriate leaf used for a Pu-erh. I'm
nearly sure that a leaf appropriate to the productin of Bi Lo Chun would
disintegrate into powder if you tried to produce a Pu-erh out of it.

Finally, the most important question, which I beg you to answer for us and
clear up the mystery: **What makes Pu-erh Pu-erh?**

Finally again, Mike P, could you kindly help us with the verification of our
3700 year old tree. Perhaps get a little more specific information from your
respected teacher in Kumming (sp?). Thanks.

Linda, thanks for joining this "conversation." I'm truly looking forward to
your help in clarifying the issues, answering my questions.

Michael

>
>> Mike

> 6/
> 28/04
>>
>>
>>>>> So, if this tea, which is fresher than

> most so-called fresh greens we
>>>>> drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs

> I've ever had, what, then,
>>>>> is a Puerh?
>>>
>>>> I think Lew's question is right on the

> money.
>>> snip
>>>> Nor can I figure out what makes Pu-erh Pu-

> erh.
>>>
>>>
>>> Technically Puerh is tea from the Yunnan

> large leaf varieties of the
>>> tea plant that is processed in the

> traditional methods, see my site
>>> for specific processing steps. The "tea

> variety/traditional
>>> processing" is what makes a puerh a puerh.

> Within this broad group are
>>> a multitude of variables that can make

> distinctly different tasting
>>> products. The "natural oxidation" process is

> what "ages" puerh and
>>> improves it.

>>
>> Have we given up on the beastie theory? I'll

> check out your site again.
>> Meanwhile Mike, why not place the site URL as

> part of your signature block
>> the way Lew places Babelcarp's homebase? It

> would be very helpful.
>>
>>> What you guys experienced what an

> outstanding "base tea"
>>> that was "processed" into puerh. To my

> knowledge they do not process
>>> these "wild old" trees any other way

> presumably because the value when
>>> processed as puerh exceeds other methods,

> though I have seen regular
>>> Yunnan large leaf blacks before.

>>
>>> BTW, I have independent confirmation about

> the Tea Master who has
>>> contracted all of the tea from this 3700

> year old tree. My buddy in
>>> China confirmed the existence and is rather

> jealous because he has
>>> never been able to get a hold of a sample.

>>
>> If he has a house to mortgage or a child to

> sell, I would part with part of
>> my sample. Actually, we could discuss this

> more seriously off-group. I do
>> have some and enough to share. I'm glad to

> hear the confirmation.
>>>
>>> Lew, I have tasted some of these $100+ cakes

> but let me taste these
>>> upcoming samples and I will let you know if

> they compare. I suspect
>>> not as these pedigreed cakes I have tasted

> where from trees that were
>>> quite old but still less than 1000 years old.

>>
>> I'm going to hazzard a guess here, go out on a

> limb, based on absolutely
>> nothing, and say that I really don't think

> that a tree let us say 800 years
>> old is going to produce a tea significantly

> different from a tea from a tree
>> three or four times its age, all other things

> being equal. Why do I think
>> so? Just seems that way to me. (Conversely,

> tea from each tree will be
>> different given soil, micro-climate, and other

> individual conditions.)
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>

>
>


  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

Linda,

Interesting comments you made. I've interspersed questions below which I
hope you will help us by answering.

[Linda]
> A few comments:
> 1. The oldest tea tree in Yunnan (and the world)
> is only 2700 year old. It was awarded a Shanghai
> Guinness World of Record. It is now under the
> guardiance of Mr. Lee Rie-Ho and his Ten Ren tea
> company.


How is the age of this tree verified? How is the age of any really old tea
tree verified? I think there *might* be a tree that you were not aware of.
Is that possible?
>

[Linda]
> 2. Teas from the six tea moutains have different
> characteristics. Some are sweeter, some have
> stronger aroma...


To help us, could you be a little more specific about these "six tea
mountains"? What are their names in Chinese and in English? What in your
view causes the differences you mentioned? Soil? Tree variety? Other?
>

[Linda]
> 3. Like other teas, early spring leaves are the
> best for making Pu-erh. Regardless the leaf
> varieties, fresh leaves have to grow from tiny
> to large. When you only have a very short period
> of time to grow (early Spring), how large a
> young leave can be? 4-5cm the most.


I am not doubting you, but wouldn't the case of Oolongs such as Tie Guan Yin
be a reasonable exception because the leaves must undergo such profound
manipulation and processing? Wouldn't an Oolong leaf have to be strong to
weather this treatment and handling? Isn't a "rubbery" -- that is a
resilient and strong somewhat OLDER leaf -- best for Oolong production?

Further, 5 cm is about 2 inches, which is already pretty big. Nobody
suggested that truly old leaves are used from the "large leaf" varietals to
produce Pu-erh. The young leaf used for a Bi Lo Chun for example is a
different level of "young" than the appropriate leaf used for a Pu-erh. I'm
nearly sure that a leaf appropriate to the productin of Bi Lo Chun would
disintegrate into powder if you tried to produce a Pu-erh out of it.

Finally, the most important question, which I beg you to answer for us and
clear up the mystery: **What makes Pu-erh Pu-erh?**

Finally again, Mike P, could you kindly help us with the verification of our
3700 year old tree. Perhaps get a little more specific information from your
respected teacher in Kumming (sp?). Thanks.

Linda, thanks for joining this "conversation." I'm truly looking forward to
your help in clarifying the issues, answering my questions.

Michael

>
>> Mike

> 6/
> 28/04
>>
>>
>>>>> So, if this tea, which is fresher than

> most so-called fresh greens we
>>>>> drink, compares with the best aged Puerhs

> I've ever had, what, then,
>>>>> is a Puerh?
>>>
>>>> I think Lew's question is right on the

> money.
>>> snip
>>>> Nor can I figure out what makes Pu-erh Pu-

> erh.
>>>
>>>
>>> Technically Puerh is tea from the Yunnan

> large leaf varieties of the
>>> tea plant that is processed in the

> traditional methods, see my site
>>> for specific processing steps. The "tea

> variety/traditional
>>> processing" is what makes a puerh a puerh.

> Within this broad group are
>>> a multitude of variables that can make

> distinctly different tasting
>>> products. The "natural oxidation" process is

> what "ages" puerh and
>>> improves it.

>>
>> Have we given up on the beastie theory? I'll

> check out your site again.
>> Meanwhile Mike, why not place the site URL as

> part of your signature block
>> the way Lew places Babelcarp's homebase? It

> would be very helpful.
>>
>>> What you guys experienced what an

> outstanding "base tea"
>>> that was "processed" into puerh. To my

> knowledge they do not process
>>> these "wild old" trees any other way

> presumably because the value when
>>> processed as puerh exceeds other methods,

> though I have seen regular
>>> Yunnan large leaf blacks before.

>>
>>> BTW, I have independent confirmation about

> the Tea Master who has
>>> contracted all of the tea from this 3700

> year old tree. My buddy in
>>> China confirmed the existence and is rather

> jealous because he has
>>> never been able to get a hold of a sample.

>>
>> If he has a house to mortgage or a child to

> sell, I would part with part of
>> my sample. Actually, we could discuss this

> more seriously off-group. I do
>> have some and enough to share. I'm glad to

> hear the confirmation.
>>>
>>> Lew, I have tasted some of these $100+ cakes

> but let me taste these
>>> upcoming samples and I will let you know if

> they compare. I suspect
>>> not as these pedigreed cakes I have tasted

> where from trees that were
>>> quite old but still less than 1000 years old.

>>
>> I'm going to hazzard a guess here, go out on a

> limb, based on absolutely
>> nothing, and say that I really don't think

> that a tree let us say 800 years
>> old is going to produce a tea significantly

> different from a tea from a tree
>> three or four times its age, all other things

> being equal. Why do I think
>> so? Just seems that way to me. (Conversely,

> tea from each tree will be
>> different given soil, micro-climate, and other

> individual conditions.)
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>

>
>


  #24 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ripon
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

> Finally again, Mike P, could you kindly help us with the verification of our
> 3700 year old tree. Perhaps get a little more specific information from your
> respected teacher in Kumming (sp?). Thanks.


Michael:

My record is also saying- the oldest Pu-Erh tea is 2700 years old.
Where did you get that 3700 year old tree, please let me know. I want
to clear about this aged tree. The oldest 2700 old tree are mostly
gathered around Xishuangbanna, Yunnan.

I am reading this thread with great interest also preparing my final
post. I know some of you might disagree but the true fact of Pu-Erh
tea is not the age, the processing. A three years properly aged Pu-erh
can be much better then 20 years aged Pu-Erh. Smooth Pu-erh depends
on the right balance of the oxidized tea pigments. Age can sometimes ,
improper storage and processing can damage the tea. The ultimate
quality question is- weather it is a green or black processed Pu-Erh
with proper storage.

Ripon
Vienna,VA
  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ripon
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

> Finally again, Mike P, could you kindly help us with the verification of our
> 3700 year old tree. Perhaps get a little more specific information from your
> respected teacher in Kumming (sp?). Thanks.


Michael:

My record is also saying- the oldest Pu-Erh tea is 2700 years old.
Where did you get that 3700 year old tree, please let me know. I want
to clear about this aged tree. The oldest 2700 old tree are mostly
gathered around Xishuangbanna, Yunnan.

I am reading this thread with great interest also preparing my final
post. I know some of you might disagree but the true fact of Pu-Erh
tea is not the age, the processing. A three years properly aged Pu-erh
can be much better then 20 years aged Pu-Erh. Smooth Pu-erh depends
on the right balance of the oxidized tea pigments. Age can sometimes ,
improper storage and processing can damage the tea. The ultimate
quality question is- weather it is a green or black processed Pu-Erh
with proper storage.

Ripon
Vienna,VA


  #26 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

I'm looking into the 3700. Generally, I agree with Ripon. A lot depends on
processing, quality of leaf, storage conditions. I've been drinking teas
lately of excellent quality leaf and I am very happy. I've been told that
new Pu-erh can taste delicious, as can one with some age on it. However, a
Pu-erh of two-three years will be the harshest. Do you think that an older
Pu-erh might be more complex than its younger brother?

Michael



6/29/04


>> Finally again, Mike P, could you kindly help us with the verification of our
>> 3700 year old tree. Perhaps get a little more specific information from your
>> respected teacher in Kumming (sp?). Thanks.

>
> Michael:
>
> My record is also saying- the oldest Pu-Erh tea is 2700 years old.
> Where did you get that 3700 year old tree, please let me know. I want
> to clear about this aged tree. The oldest 2700 old tree are mostly
> gathered around Xishuangbanna, Yunnan.
>
> I am reading this thread with great interest also preparing my final
> post. I know some of you might disagree but the true fact of Pu-Erh
> tea is not the age, the processing. A three years properly aged Pu-erh
> can be much better then 20 years aged Pu-Erh. Smooth Pu-erh depends
> on the right balance of the oxidized tea pigments. Age can sometimes ,
> improper storage and processing can damage the tea. The ultimate
> quality question is- weather it is a green or black processed Pu-Erh
> with proper storage.
>
> Ripon
> Vienna,VA


  #27 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

I'm looking into the 3700. Generally, I agree with Ripon. A lot depends on
processing, quality of leaf, storage conditions. I've been drinking teas
lately of excellent quality leaf and I am very happy. I've been told that
new Pu-erh can taste delicious, as can one with some age on it. However, a
Pu-erh of two-three years will be the harshest. Do you think that an older
Pu-erh might be more complex than its younger brother?

Michael



6/29/04


>> Finally again, Mike P, could you kindly help us with the verification of our
>> 3700 year old tree. Perhaps get a little more specific information from your
>> respected teacher in Kumming (sp?). Thanks.

>
> Michael:
>
> My record is also saying- the oldest Pu-Erh tea is 2700 years old.
> Where did you get that 3700 year old tree, please let me know. I want
> to clear about this aged tree. The oldest 2700 old tree are mostly
> gathered around Xishuangbanna, Yunnan.
>
> I am reading this thread with great interest also preparing my final
> post. I know some of you might disagree but the true fact of Pu-Erh
> tea is not the age, the processing. A three years properly aged Pu-erh
> can be much better then 20 years aged Pu-Erh. Smooth Pu-erh depends
> on the right balance of the oxidized tea pigments. Age can sometimes ,
> improper storage and processing can damage the tea. The ultimate
> quality question is- weather it is a green or black processed Pu-Erh
> with proper storage.
>
> Ripon
> Vienna,VA


  #28 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

Ripon,

Is this email address valid? I have tried to send you email about that
Yunnan gold bud (A) you asked about but never got a response?



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply
  #29 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

Ripon,

Is this email address valid? I have tried to send you email about that
Yunnan gold bud (A) you asked about but never got a response?



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply
  #30 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)


>Have we given up on the beastie theory? I'll check out your site again.
>Meanwhile Mike, why not place the site URL as part of your signature block
>the way Lew places Babelcarp's homebase? It would be very helpful.


BTW Michael, I checked my original post and my signature does include
my website address.

OK, in response to several requests here and on an offline extension
of this thread, here goes:

The 2 main things that make a Puerh a Puerh are the "base tea" and the
processing. Age and storage only improve upon it.

1) The base tea MUST be one of the Yunnan large leaf varieties. I do
not know the specific cultivar names but I will find out. These large
leaf teas are unique to the Yunnan region and are traditionally only
made into puerh or red(black) tea. I have also seen imitations that
used Vietnamese leaf which were then processed in Yunnan.

2) Processing. If you look at http://www.pu-erh.net/greenpuerh.html
(Production step #5) the withering step in the puerh process is
crucial to its ultimate quality. My Chinese teacher says that TRUE
puerh is Sun-Dried (Blue) rather than using other methods. Sun drying
does create some enzymatic (sp) conditions, however they are all
naturally occurring and are not artificially introduced like in sour
dough or yogurt. Since tea is organic matter, moisture is involved,
and the process takes many hours/days, these enzymatic (sp) conditions
occur quite naturally. Some puerhs are withered by manmade heating
systems (dryers) but these produce puerh of lesser quality than sun
dried methods.

The general process to produce Puerh is public knowledge however if
you where to get into the details of the various tea processing steps
I am sure there are differences between the ones used in Puerh
production and the same steps used Black (red) Tea processing. There
are also difference from factory to factory used in Puerh production.
It is in these details of the individual steps that the Chinese
Factories tend to clam up and become very secretive. These nuances in
processing influence the final character of the tea, and often these
characteristics are recognizable as belonging to a specific factory or
another.

This combination of Yunnan Large Leaf Tea and the traditional
processing methods are what makes a puerh a puerh. Yes, there are some
naturally occurring "beasties" that do play a role, but there seems to
be other puerh that doesn't have them. No, there is no artificial
insemination of any kind.

A lot of the confusion comes in at the factory level. The factories
often just process tea on a contract basis for farmers and
businessmen, they will simply process whatever leaf is brought to them
using whatever processing recipe that the customer asks for. The
factory processes the tea, often called "reprocessing" and then
returns the finished cakes to the customer. The factory does not have
any quality control over the growing of the tea or its harvesting. The
same factory can process really good base tea from one farmer and
really garbage base tea from another farmer. Unfortunately both
batches can wind up in the same paper wrappers. To further complicate
things most large factories do own some of their own farms and are
able to tightly control the production from these farms, unfortunately
they sometimes use the same paper wrappers that they used for their
contract processing. That is why 2 identically looking cakes can be
very different. You really can't judge a tea/book by its
wrapper/cover. Due to the varying degree of quality associated with
contract processing some factories are moving towards NOT allowing the
Factory name on the wrapper in an effort to protect their reputation.
To make things even more interesting it is a common practice to rewrap
cakes in different wrappers, usually to portray the cake as being from
a different source than it originated from.



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply


  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)


>Have we given up on the beastie theory? I'll check out your site again.
>Meanwhile Mike, why not place the site URL as part of your signature block
>the way Lew places Babelcarp's homebase? It would be very helpful.


BTW Michael, I checked my original post and my signature does include
my website address.

OK, in response to several requests here and on an offline extension
of this thread, here goes:

The 2 main things that make a Puerh a Puerh are the "base tea" and the
processing. Age and storage only improve upon it.

1) The base tea MUST be one of the Yunnan large leaf varieties. I do
not know the specific cultivar names but I will find out. These large
leaf teas are unique to the Yunnan region and are traditionally only
made into puerh or red(black) tea. I have also seen imitations that
used Vietnamese leaf which were then processed in Yunnan.

2) Processing. If you look at http://www.pu-erh.net/greenpuerh.html
(Production step #5) the withering step in the puerh process is
crucial to its ultimate quality. My Chinese teacher says that TRUE
puerh is Sun-Dried (Blue) rather than using other methods. Sun drying
does create some enzymatic (sp) conditions, however they are all
naturally occurring and are not artificially introduced like in sour
dough or yogurt. Since tea is organic matter, moisture is involved,
and the process takes many hours/days, these enzymatic (sp) conditions
occur quite naturally. Some puerhs are withered by manmade heating
systems (dryers) but these produce puerh of lesser quality than sun
dried methods.

The general process to produce Puerh is public knowledge however if
you where to get into the details of the various tea processing steps
I am sure there are differences between the ones used in Puerh
production and the same steps used Black (red) Tea processing. There
are also difference from factory to factory used in Puerh production.
It is in these details of the individual steps that the Chinese
Factories tend to clam up and become very secretive. These nuances in
processing influence the final character of the tea, and often these
characteristics are recognizable as belonging to a specific factory or
another.

This combination of Yunnan Large Leaf Tea and the traditional
processing methods are what makes a puerh a puerh. Yes, there are some
naturally occurring "beasties" that do play a role, but there seems to
be other puerh that doesn't have them. No, there is no artificial
insemination of any kind.

A lot of the confusion comes in at the factory level. The factories
often just process tea on a contract basis for farmers and
businessmen, they will simply process whatever leaf is brought to them
using whatever processing recipe that the customer asks for. The
factory processes the tea, often called "reprocessing" and then
returns the finished cakes to the customer. The factory does not have
any quality control over the growing of the tea or its harvesting. The
same factory can process really good base tea from one farmer and
really garbage base tea from another farmer. Unfortunately both
batches can wind up in the same paper wrappers. To further complicate
things most large factories do own some of their own farms and are
able to tightly control the production from these farms, unfortunately
they sometimes use the same paper wrappers that they used for their
contract processing. That is why 2 identically looking cakes can be
very different. You really can't judge a tea/book by its
wrapper/cover. Due to the varying degree of quality associated with
contract processing some factories are moving towards NOT allowing the
Factory name on the wrapper in an effort to protect their reputation.
To make things even more interesting it is a common practice to rewrap
cakes in different wrappers, usually to portray the cake as being from
a different source than it originated from.



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply
  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ripon
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

Michael Plant > wrote in message >...
> I'm looking into the 3700. Generally, I agree with Ripon. A lot depends on
> processing, quality of leaf, storage conditions. I've been drinking teas
> lately of excellent quality leaf and I am very happy. I've been told that
> new Pu-erh can taste delicious, as can one with some age on it. However, a
> Pu-erh of two-three years will be the harshest. Do you think that an older
> Pu-erh might be more complex than its younger brother?
>
> Michael


Michael:

Off course a real aged green processed, well stored, sun dried Pu-Erh
will be more *complex, sweet, smooth* compare with a three years old
properly processed Pu-Erh that's why real aged processed Pu-Erh is a
treasure. The question is- do we get that kind of aged Pu-Erh?

I am putting some information from my upcoming book:

-10+ years green processed Pu-Erh infusion is Orange color with strong
aroma, sweet and smooth

1-3 years green processed Pu-Erh infusion will be dark yellow with
medium aroma

-10+ years black processed Pu-Erh infusion is light black color with
less aroma, sweetness and smoothness

1-3 years black processed Pu-Erh infusion is dark black color with
strong aroma

When you check a quality of Pu-Erh- you first check the color of the
infusion then aroma, sweetness, smoothness. You can tell the
differences by tasting side by side.

If you want to know more about the quality, then you need to check if
the processing(Green or Black), tea leaves, The tea master who
processed the tea, location(Lang Chung is famous for good aged Pu-Erh
tea tree), their storage facilities etc. etc. Their are many
parameters.

Ripon
Vienna,VA
  #35 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ripon
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

Michael Plant > wrote in message >...
> I'm looking into the 3700. Generally, I agree with Ripon. A lot depends on
> processing, quality of leaf, storage conditions. I've been drinking teas
> lately of excellent quality leaf and I am very happy. I've been told that
> new Pu-erh can taste delicious, as can one with some age on it. However, a
> Pu-erh of two-three years will be the harshest. Do you think that an older
> Pu-erh might be more complex than its younger brother?
>
> Michael


Michael:

Off course a real aged green processed, well stored, sun dried Pu-Erh
will be more *complex, sweet, smooth* compare with a three years old
properly processed Pu-Erh that's why real aged processed Pu-Erh is a
treasure. The question is- do we get that kind of aged Pu-Erh?

I am putting some information from my upcoming book:

-10+ years green processed Pu-Erh infusion is Orange color with strong
aroma, sweet and smooth

1-3 years green processed Pu-Erh infusion will be dark yellow with
medium aroma

-10+ years black processed Pu-Erh infusion is light black color with
less aroma, sweetness and smoothness

1-3 years black processed Pu-Erh infusion is dark black color with
strong aroma

When you check a quality of Pu-Erh- you first check the color of the
infusion then aroma, sweetness, smoothness. You can tell the
differences by tasting side by side.

If you want to know more about the quality, then you need to check if
the processing(Green or Black), tea leaves, The tea master who
processed the tea, location(Lang Chung is famous for good aged Pu-Erh
tea tree), their storage facilities etc. etc. Their are many
parameters.

Ripon
Vienna,VA


  #36 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)


>I forget what was said earlier about storage. I've gotten a
>supposedly superior (young) cake. How should I store it ?
>(What kind of wrapper? What kind of container?)


Ideal conditions are cool, dry, odor free, and have free air flow.
Leave the puerh in its original wrapper, do not put in another
container. If you no longer have the original wrapper use tissue paper
or a paper bag, DO NOT use newspaper as the tea will absorb the odor
of the ink. Whatever you use remember that Puerh needs to breath to
age properly, so do not use a Tupperware container or saran wrap.

The two things to avoid are high humidity and odors.

Read http://www.pu-erh.net/greenpuerh.html for more info.



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply
  #37 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)


>I forget what was said earlier about storage. I've gotten a
>supposedly superior (young) cake. How should I store it ?
>(What kind of wrapper? What kind of container?)


Ideal conditions are cool, dry, odor free, and have free air flow.
Leave the puerh in its original wrapper, do not put in another
container. If you no longer have the original wrapper use tissue paper
or a paper bag, DO NOT use newspaper as the tea will absorb the odor
of the ink. Whatever you use remember that Puerh needs to breath to
age properly, so do not use a Tupperware container or saran wrap.

The two things to avoid are high humidity and odors.

Read http://www.pu-erh.net/greenpuerh.html for more info.



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply
  #38 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

6/29/04


> Michael:
>
> Of course a real aged green processed, well stored, sun dried Pu-Erh
> will be more *complex, sweet, smooth* compare with a three years old
> properly processed Pu-Erh that's why real aged processed Pu-Erh is a
> treasure. The question is- do we get that kind of aged Pu-Erh?


Yes, *that* is the question. So, until we have drunk that level of Pu-erh,
how can we be sure, to borrow a train of thought from Lew, that aging is a
major influence on these qualities, espcially in view of the fact that these
qualities vary but are not universally absent from among the younger ones?

> I am putting some information from my upcoming book:
>
> -10+ years green processed Pu-Erh infusion is Orange color with strong
> aroma, sweet and smooth
>
> 1-3 years green processed Pu-Erh infusion will be dark yellow with
> medium aroma
>
> -10+ years black processed Pu-Erh infusion is light black color with
> less aroma, sweetness and smoothness


My most trusted sources say good cooked Pu-erh should *never* be opaque.
>
> 1-3 years black processed Pu-Erh infusion is dark black color with
> strong aroma
>
> When you check a quality of Pu-Erh- you first check the color of the
> infusion then aroma, sweetness, smoothness. You can tell the
> differences by tasting side by side.


What about complexity? I've been drinking a 1988 green pu-erh cake whose
turns and twists of taste, style, and aroma qualities through successive
steeps are the most dramatic I've ever experienced. The first two or three
steeps of this tea are one thing; the seventh and eighth, quite another.
Although I've had really delightful newer Pu-erhs, never have I encountered
this level of complexity. And, unlike myself, this tea is silky smooth
throughout.
>
> If you want to know more about the quality, then you need to check if
> the processing(Green or Black), tea leaves, The tea master who
> processed the tea, location(Lang Chung is famous for good aged Pu-Erh
> tea tree), their storage facilities etc. etc. Their are many
> parameters.


Legion. (I am so confused.)

  #39 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

6/29/04


> Michael:
>
> Of course a real aged green processed, well stored, sun dried Pu-Erh
> will be more *complex, sweet, smooth* compare with a three years old
> properly processed Pu-Erh that's why real aged processed Pu-Erh is a
> treasure. The question is- do we get that kind of aged Pu-Erh?


Yes, *that* is the question. So, until we have drunk that level of Pu-erh,
how can we be sure, to borrow a train of thought from Lew, that aging is a
major influence on these qualities, espcially in view of the fact that these
qualities vary but are not universally absent from among the younger ones?

> I am putting some information from my upcoming book:
>
> -10+ years green processed Pu-Erh infusion is Orange color with strong
> aroma, sweet and smooth
>
> 1-3 years green processed Pu-Erh infusion will be dark yellow with
> medium aroma
>
> -10+ years black processed Pu-Erh infusion is light black color with
> less aroma, sweetness and smoothness


My most trusted sources say good cooked Pu-erh should *never* be opaque.
>
> 1-3 years black processed Pu-Erh infusion is dark black color with
> strong aroma
>
> When you check a quality of Pu-Erh- you first check the color of the
> infusion then aroma, sweetness, smoothness. You can tell the
> differences by tasting side by side.


What about complexity? I've been drinking a 1988 green pu-erh cake whose
turns and twists of taste, style, and aroma qualities through successive
steeps are the most dramatic I've ever experienced. The first two or three
steeps of this tea are one thing; the seventh and eighth, quite another.
Although I've had really delightful newer Pu-erhs, never have I encountered
this level of complexity. And, unlike myself, this tea is silky smooth
throughout.
>
> If you want to know more about the quality, then you need to check if
> the processing(Green or Black), tea leaves, The tea master who
> processed the tea, location(Lang Chung is famous for good aged Pu-Erh
> tea tree), their storage facilities etc. etc. Their are many
> parameters.


Legion. (I am so confused.)

  #40 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ripon
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is a Puerh, really? (cont.)

Mike Petro > wrote in message >. ..
> Ripon,
>
> Is this email address valid? I have tried to send you email about that
> Yunnan gold bud (A) you asked about but never got a response?


Dear Mike:

This is not valid anymore. Please re-send the message at Thanks.

Ripon
Vienna,VA
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