Tea (rec.drink.tea) Discussion relating to tea, the world's second most consumed beverage (after water), made by infusing or boiling the leaves of the tea plant (C. sinensis or close relatives) in water.

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Default Caffeine and someone who should know better

Tea People,

I just watched the "Caffeinated" episode of Unwrapped on the Food
Nework. The master blender (or taster or whatever his title was) at
Lipton said that a 15-20 second steep will SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the
caffeine levels of subsequent steeps. ARGH!!!!

Thanks. I just had to vent.

Alan
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Alan > writes:

> I just watched the "Caffeinated" episode of Unwrapped on the Food
> Nework. The master blender (or taster or whatever his title was) at
> Lipton said that a 15-20 second steep will SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the
> caffeine levels of subsequent steeps. ARGH!!!!


Do you really think he's ignorant ("should know better")? I suspect
he's just stretching the truth as far as possible without telling a
lie. Maybe I'm just cynical. And I didn't see the show, of course.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
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On Mar 1, 1:57*pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> Alan > writes:
> > I just watched the "Caffeinated" episode of Unwrapped on the Food
> > Nework. The master blender (or taster or whatever his title was) at
> > Lipton said that a 15-20 second steep will SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the
> > caffeine levels of subsequent steeps. ARGH!!!!

>
> Do you really think he's ignorant ("should know better")? *I suspect
> he's just stretching the truth as far as possible without telling a
> lie. *Maybe I'm just cynical. *And I didn't see the show, of course.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /


Why would a man who sells mediocre tea to millions who may or may not
be affected by caffeine lie? And, how much expertise does it take to
be a "Master Blender" for Lipton?
I've just jumped into the cynical pool.
Shen
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On Mar 1, 5:04 pm, Shen > wrote:
> On Mar 1, 1:57 pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
>
> > Alan > writes:
> > > I just watched the "Caffeinated" episode of Unwrapped on the Food
> > > Nework. The master blender (or taster or whatever his title was) at
> > > Lipton said that a 15-20 second steep will SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the
> > > caffeine levels of subsequent steeps. ARGH!!!!

>
> > Do you really think he's ignorant ("should know better")? I suspect
> > he's just stretching the truth as far as possible without telling a
> > lie. Maybe I'm just cynical. And I didn't see the show, of course.

>
> > /Lew
> > ---
> > Lew Perin /

>
> Why would a man who sells mediocre tea to millions who may or may not
> be affected by caffeine lie? And, how much expertise does it take to
> be a "Master Blender" for Lipton?
> I've just jumped into the cynical pool.
> Shen


Heh, I thought the same thing the first time I saw that episode but
then they go into the 20+ (IIRC) teas they blend to keep the flavor
consistent. I'm sure it is actually a fairly skilled job but still
mediocre. I'd guess it would be like being Master Vintner at Arbor
Mist.

- Dominic

P.S. So your saying the 15-20 second steep won't reduce the
caffeine?
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On Mar 1, 3:00*pm, Alan > wrote:
> Tea People,
>
> I just watched the "Caffeinated" episode of Unwrapped on the Food
> Nework. The master blender (or taster or whatever his title was) at
> Lipton said that a 15-20 second steep will SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the
> caffeine levels of subsequent steeps. ARGH!!!!
>
> Thanks. I just had to vent.
>
> Alan


So if it reduces caffeine by 15-20% you don't think it's
significant?

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN


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Default Caffeine and someone who should know better

where again is the link to the study that says it takes much longer to get
out the caffeine? Couldn't find it from before. thx


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On Mar 1, 3:33*pm, "Slippy" > wrote:
> where again is the link to the study that says it takes much longer to get
> out the caffeine? *Couldn't find it from before. *thx


Nigel! Nigel! Where are you, Nigel??
It's the old caffeine sticky mess again...................we need you!
Shen
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On Mar 1, 4:33*pm, "Slippy" > wrote:
> where again is the link to the study that says it takes much longer to get
> out the caffeine? *Couldn't find it from before. *thx


I set the wayback machine to skip over the em eye five messages and
found this:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...a7df2abe2ef44#

I don't believe we ever found conclusive results for short steeps
(shorter than five minutes) though.

To answer MarshallN's question: no, I don't consider 15-20%
significant (yes, I saw your smiley). Part of the problem, as I'm sure
WE all know, is that people are looking for a way to decaffeinate
their favorite tea, where "decaffeinate" means "remove almost all
caffeine". Yes, 15-20% may be significant from a science experiment
point of view, but not from the POV of someone who has to avoid
caffeine for health reasons.

While most of us here look down on Lipton, I have to believe that even
a brand that caters to the masses is employing someone who knows
something about tea to do their blending. Keep in mind that the
problem with putting out a consistent product is that it is
consistently mediocre. Think about it: you have to be able to produce
the same product during good years and bad years. It simply cannot be
top quality every time. The bar has to be lowered to be able to jump
over it each year.

Alan
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Default Caffeine and someone who should know better

[slippy] where again is the link to the study that says it takes much
longer to get out the caffeine? Couldn't find it from before. thx

[shen] Nigel! Nigel! Where are you, Nigel?? It's the old caffeine
sticky mess again...................we need you!

[corax] at the moment nigel is, i believe, trotting the globe once
again, but his latest summation of the evidence on caffeine levels in
tea -- and common misperceptions about decaffeinating tea -- is
conveniently located [with some new material added as well] for all to
read at CHA DAO. this [permanent] short link will whisk you thither in
a trice:

http://tinyurl.com/2kgwy4

there is already a whole string of comments there, too, which make
interesting reading, and to which readers are invited to contribute.
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On Mar 1, 7:49*pm, Alan > wrote:
> On Mar 1, 4:33*pm, "Slippy" > wrote:
>
> > where again is the link to the study that says it takes much longer to get
> > out the caffeine? *Couldn't find it from before. *thx

>
> I set the wayback machine to skip over the em eye five messages and
> found this:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...e_thread/threa...
>
> I don't believe we ever found conclusive results for short steeps
> (shorter than five minutes) though.
>
> To answer MarshallN's question: no, I don't consider 15-20%
> significant (yes, I saw your smiley). Part of the problem, as I'm sure
> WE all know, is that people are looking for a way to decaffeinate
> their favorite tea, where "decaffeinate" means "remove almost all
> caffeine". Yes, 15-20% may be significant from a science experiment
> point of view, but not from the POV of someone who has to avoid
> caffeine for health reasons.
>
> While most of us here look down on Lipton, I have to believe that even
> a brand that caters to the masses is employing someone who knows
> something about tea to do their blending. Keep in mind that the
> problem with putting out a consistent product is that it is
> consistently mediocre. Think about it: you have to be able to produce
> the same product during good years and bad years. It simply cannot be
> top quality every time. The bar has to be lowered to be able to jump
> over it each year.
>
> Alan


One thing I haven't seen addressed: with black tea I use one steeping,
or occasionally two. With green tea I use up to seven steepings. I
think what I do may be typical of a lot of others' practice. If so,
it would seem to be that even if black and green tea start out as
essentially the same in caffeine, the later steepings of green tea
would have less. Toci


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>One thing I haven't seen addressed: with black tea I use one steeping,
>or occasionally two. With green tea I use up to seven steepings. I
>think what I do may be typical of a lot of others' practice. If so,
>it would seem to be that even if black and green tea start out as
>essentially the same in caffeine, the later steepings of green tea
>would have less. Toci


Which is of course why you must increase the steep time, each time. I
always thought I lost almost all the caffeine in the first steep. But now,
if those studies are right, it seems that you can get fairly consistent
caffeine on subsequent steepings by increasing the time a minute or so each
time.


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> Which is of course why you must increase the steep time, each time. I
> always thought I lost almost all the caffeine in the first steep. But

now,
> if those studies are right, it seems that you can get fairly consistent
> caffeine on subsequent steepings by increasing the time a minute or so

each
> time.


In fact, now that I mention it, I'd love to see an experiment where they
compare the caffeine in 4-5 different cups, all steeped from the same leaves
with the same amt of water. First steep is for (say) 2 minutes, second is
for 3 minutes, third is for 4, etc. I bet you'd get fairly consistent
caffeine in all the pours.


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On Mar 1, 3:00*pm, Alan > wrote:
> Tea People,
>
> I just watched the "Caffeinated" episode of Unwrapped on the Food
> Nework. The master blender (or taster or whatever his title was) at
> Lipton said that a 15-20 second steep will SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the
> caffeine levels of subsequent steeps. ARGH!!!!
>
> Thanks. I just had to vent.
>
> Alan


I think it stands to reason that if you brew tea for 15 seconds that
the caffeine level and overall flavor level will be "significantly"
lower than if you brew for several minutes as Lipton recommends.
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toci > writes:

> On Mar 1, 7:49*pm, Alan > wrote:
> > On Mar 1, 4:33*pm, "Slippy" > wrote:
> >
> > > where again is the link to the study that says it takes much
> > > longer to get out the caffeine? *Couldn't find it from
> > > before. *thx

> >
> > I set the wayback machine to skip over the em eye five messages and
> > found this:
> >
> > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...e_thread/threa...
> >
> > I don't believe we ever found conclusive results for short steeps
> > (shorter than five minutes) though.
> >
> > To answer MarshallN's question: no, I don't consider 15-20%
> > significant (yes, I saw your smiley). Part of the problem, as I'm sure
> > WE all know, is that people are looking for a way to decaffeinate
> > their favorite tea, where "decaffeinate" means "remove almost all
> > caffeine". Yes, 15-20% may be significant from a science experiment
> > point of view, but not from the POV of someone who has to avoid
> > caffeine for health reasons.
> >
> > While most of us here look down on Lipton, I have to believe that even
> > a brand that caters to the masses is employing someone who knows
> > something about tea to do their blending. Keep in mind that the
> > problem with putting out a consistent product is that it is
> > consistently mediocre. Think about it: you have to be able to produce
> > the same product during good years and bad years. It simply cannot be
> > top quality every time. The bar has to be lowered to be able to jump
> > over it each year.
> >
> > Alan

>
> One thing I haven't seen addressed: with black tea I use one steeping,
> or occasionally two. With green tea I use up to seven steepings. I
> think what I do may be typical of a lot of others' practice. If so,
> it would seem to be that even if black and green tea start out as
> essentially the same in caffeine, the later steepings of green tea
> would have less. Toci


Probably even the earlier steeps of the green would have less
caffeine, if you brew your greens with shorter steeps and lower
temperatures than your blacks. (Most people do.)

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
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Nigel here - newly returned from Rwanda in the pursuit of new
specialty teas - to find we are still debating the Camellia equivalent
of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Thank you corax for the tinylink to my CHA DAO article which is
(virtually) my last word on the 30 second decaff issue - until I find
funding to do the actual lab work to prove/disprove the claim - all
asistance welcome.

Nigel at Teacraft


On Mar 2, 5:12*pm, corax > wrote:
> [slippy] where again is the link to the study that says it takes much
> longer to get out the caffeine? *Couldn't find it from before. *thx
>
> [shen] Nigel! Nigel! Where are you, Nigel?? It's the old caffeine
> sticky mess again...................we need you!
>
> [corax] at the moment nigel is, i believe, trotting the globe once
> again, but his latest summation of the evidence on caffeine levels in
> tea -- and common misperceptions about decaffeinating tea -- is
> conveniently located [with some new material added as well] for all to
> read at CHA DAO. this [permanent] short link will whisk you thither in
> a trice:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2kgwy4
>
> there is already a whole string of comments there, too, which make
> interesting reading, and to which readers are invited to contribute.




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On Mar 2, 9:12*am, corax > wrote:
> [slippy] where again is the link to the study that says it takes much
> longer to get out the caffeine? *Couldn't find it from before. *thx
>
> [shen] Nigel! Nigel! Where are you, Nigel?? It's the old caffeine
> sticky mess again...................we need you!
>
> [corax] at the moment nigel is, i believe, trotting the globe once
> again, but his latest summation of the evidence on caffeine levels in
> tea -- and common misperceptions about decaffeinating tea -- is
> conveniently located [with some new material added as well] for all to
> read at CHA DAO. this [permanent] short link will whisk you thither in
> a trice:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2kgwy4
>
> there is already a whole string of comments there, too, which make
> interesting reading, and to which readers are invited to contribute.


Thank you, Corax. My dear old mind plays tricks on me and I forgot
(geez...how could I?) about that wonderful piece in Cha Dao.
Me thinks I am caffeine deprived!
Shen
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On Mar 2, 1:00 am, Alan > wrote:
> Tea People,
>
> I just watched the "Caffeinated" episode of Unwrapped on the Food
> Nework. The master blender (or taster or whatever his title was) at
> Lipton said that a 15-20 second steep will SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the
> caffeine levels of subsequent steeps. ARGH!!!!
>
> Thanks. I just had to vent.
>
> Alan


Hello to scientific tea lovers.

Tea brew , basically , is a complex mixture of so many dissolved
chemicals ( which were initially present in the tea leaf ) in water ,
besides the chemicals present in water used . So the resultant tea
brew depends upon the
* Quantity, Quality and temperature of water used
* Quantity and Quality of tea used.
* The brewing process ( time of brewing etc) used
* and the solubility of the chemicals present in tea.
Solubility of different compounds in tea leaf in boiling water .
decreases as we go down below the following list of compounds.-
1. Carbohydrates
2. Salts and Organic acids
3. Polyphenols
4. Proteins
5. Caffeine
6. Flavor compounds
As is clear from the above list, solubility of carbohydrates is
maximum and of flavor compounds is minimum..
The following are the further details regarding solubility of the
above
1. Carbohydratres- in tea are in the following forms. And their
solubility is less as we go down the list.
A. Free Carbohydrates- glucose etc- readily soluble in water.
B. Pectins- . Less soluble than free Carbohydrates. They are smaller
in size than hemicellulose They form a jelly. Precipitation occurs
when cooled down. Their solubility increases with rise in
temperature .
C. Hemicellulose- more soluble than starch. Solubility increases with
temperature.
D. Starch- Solubilty depends upon temperature
E. Cellulose not soluble in water.
2. Salts and Organic acids
Salts and Organic acids are taken from the soil by the tea
plant .Salts are taken in the form of Nitrates,chlorides, etc of
Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium , and Potassium etc . Salts are more
soluble in comparision to the base materials.
3. Polyphenols- Solubility dcreases with polymerization and increases
with rise in temperature.
4. Proteins- the solubility of proteins increases with rise in
temperature but after a particular temperature the solubility
decreases with temperature due to coagulation.
5. Caffeine- solubility increases with temperature.
6. Flavor compounds- least soluble

Caffeine gives bitter taste and I have never found a bitter taste in
first 15- 20 second steep in any tea tasted by me and I found them
rather sweet since it contained maximum percentage of sweet
carbohydrates). So "Lipton said that a 15-20 second steep will
SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the caffeine levels of subsequent steeps" is
unscientific. Scientific part of my mind tells me that people
interested in less caffeine should prefer ist steep of 15-20 seconds,
in comparision to later steeps.

S.M.Changoiwala
Gopaldhara tea Company Pvt Ltd.
India.
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