What about approaching the tea drinking experience in a special way,
such as how a child might?

To do this, I fancy pretending to act out a tea-making/drinking
scenario in imitation of the Japanese ceremony.

What all the ingredients of the Japanese tea ceremony are, I'm not
sure. Something about two people involved in the process, which is
done deliberately and appreciation of living close to the earth, as in
days of old.

To bring out the child-like experience, I think it should be described
as a performance, or play, like children do when they are imitating
adults in some fantasy. In fact, it would probably be good if you
played at making tea with a child or two, having each do his/her part,
then tasting the result.

Kids are great at pretending something be done in a certain way, being
an actor, etc.. Also, I think kids enjoy repeating the same
experience. Probably, they like correcting each other, too. bookburn

On Jan 23, 2:49 pm, wrote:
> What about approaching the tea drinking experience in a special way,
> such as how a child might?
>
> To do this, I fancy pretending to act out a tea-making/drinking
> scenario in imitation of the Japanese ceremony.
>
> What all the ingredients of the Japanese tea ceremony are, I'm not
> sure. Something about two people involved in the process, which is
> done deliberately and appreciation of living close to the earth, as in
> days of old.
>
> To bring out the child-like experience, I think it should be described
> as a performance, or play, like children do when they are imitating
> adults in some fantasy. In fact, it would probably be good if you
> played at making tea with a child or two, having each do his/her part,
> then tasting the result.
>
> Kids are great at pretending something be done in a certain way, being
> an actor, etc.. Also, I think kids enjoy repeating the same
> experience. Probably, they like correcting each other, too. bookburn

I'm not sure if I understand exactly what this post is getting at...
There is nothing wrong with any flight of fancy or whimsy and everyone
is free to enjoy tea in the way that they choose. After a few years
into my love of tea I began to really look admiringly at the tea
ceremony, not long after the luster began to fade and the more I
learned and researched the less I liked. Gong Fu/Kung Fu brewing is a
different story though and was the perfect form of enjoyment for me.

That being said, I don't think there is really a way to do what you
speak of. The tea ceremony is very complex, rooted in tradition, and
almost robotic precision. Maybe on a very surface-level goofy/fun way
it could be achieved, but not much more. Beyond that I'm not sure a
kid *should* or even could understand or internalize much of anything
to do with tea. To enjoy it, fine, to respect tea, fine, but outside
of that I can't see it.

- Dominic

On Jan 23, 1:49*pm, wrote:
> What about approaching the tea drinking experience in a special way,
> such as how a child might?
>
> To do this, I fancy pretending to act out a tea-making/drinking
> scenario in imitation of the Japanese ceremony.
>
> What all the ingredients of the Japanese tea ceremony are, I'm not
> sure. *Something about two people involved in the process, which is
> done deliberately and appreciation of living close to the earth, as in
> days of old.
>
> To bring out the child-like experience, I think it should be described
> as a performance, or play, like children do when they are imitating
> adults in some fantasy. *In fact, it would probably be good if you
> played at making tea with a child or two, having each do his/her part,
> then tasting the result.
>
> Kids are great at pretending something be done in a certain way, being
> an actor, etc.. *Also, I think kids enjoy repeating the same
> experience. *Probably, they like correcting each other, too. *bookburn

Children should probably not drink anything with caffeine in it. The
English tea party, with a tisane, has been fun for a lot of
children. Toci

On Jan 23, 3:24*pm, "Dominic T." > wrote:
>The tea ceremony is very complex, rooted in tradition, and almost robotic precision.

Dominic doesn't make tea ceremony sound very fun-- but *I* enjoy it,
and some of my research has been about the question of why/how tea
ceremony professionals enjoy it. This question has been actively
ignored by people writing about tea ceremony (whether in English or in
Japanese) in an effort to preserve the "profound" image... but, truth
is, an ideal tea gathering should be relaxed, have doses of
spontaneity, and be a concrete expression of the closeness of the
participants... and, I'd say lots of tea gatherings achieve this
ideal. I've even seen examples of somewhat rambunctious levity at
very elite tea gatherings, and people thought they were both fun and
successful gatherings.

I should note that the tea ceremony teachers in Japan who are the most
straight-laced, uptight and not-fun are teachers who seem to feel
insecure in the art, often cowered by status fears. The more
experienced/elite teachers are the ones who are more relaxed, who have
an easier time at being generous (and forgiving) hosts, and who have a
keener sense of *play*.

I think the notion of "playing" at a self-created "tea ceremony" is
nice: it is the creation of a ritual time and space when the
participants can *focus*, something *I* consider to be healthy and
healing. The advantage that I see in learning an established
tradition of tea drinking is that you have a ready-made community of
people with whom you can share this ritual experience. The caveat?
Study with an elite teacher. (If you need hints about how to do
*that*, drop me a note!)

james-henry holland
japanese language and culture
hobart and william smith colleges
geneva, new york 14456 usa

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:47:53 -0800 (PST), Thitherflit
> wrote:

>On Jan 23, 3:24*pm, "Dominic T." > wrote:
>>The tea ceremony is very complex, rooted in tradition, and almost robotic precision.
>
>Dominic doesn't make tea ceremony sound very fun-- but *I* enjoy it,
>and some of my research has been about the question of why/how tea
>ceremony professionals enjoy it. This question has been actively
>ignored by people writing about tea ceremony (whether in English or in
>Japanese) in an effort to preserve the "profound" image... but, truth
>is, an ideal tea gathering should be relaxed, have doses of
>spontaneity, and be a concrete expression of the closeness of the
>participants... and, I'd say lots of tea gatherings achieve this
>ideal. I've even seen examples of somewhat rambunctious levity at
>very elite tea gatherings, and people thought they were both fun and
>successful gatherings.
>
>I should note that the tea ceremony teachers in Japan who are the most
>straight-laced, uptight and not-fun are teachers who seem to feel
>insecure in the art, often cowered by status fears. The more
>experienced/elite teachers are the ones who are more relaxed, who have
>an easier time at being generous (and forgiving) hosts, and who have a
>keener sense of *play*.
>
>I think the notion of "playing" at a self-created "tea ceremony" is
>nice: it is the creation of a ritual time and space when the
>participants can *focus*, something *I* consider to be healthy and
>healing. The advantage that I see in learning an established
>tradition of tea drinking is that you have a ready-made community of
>people with whom you can share this ritual experience. The caveat?
>Study with an elite teacher. (If you need hints about how to do
>*that*, drop me a note!)
>
>james-henry holland
>japanese language and culture
>hobart and william smith colleges
>geneva, new york 14456 usa

Thanks for sharing something about the essence of tea ceremony. I get
the feeling of a community of tea drinking experience at this NG, and
for me that's enough, without being instructed in correct manners.

Maybe, as I lurk along, I'll study on how different philosophies might
approach the experience of tea drinking, as in the famous engraving of
"The Vinegar Tasters."

Regards, bookburn

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:24:40 -0800 (PST), "Dominic T."
> wrote:

>On Jan 23, 2:49 pm, wrote:
>> What about approaching the tea drinking experience in a special way,
>> such as how a child might?
>>
>> To do this, I fancy pretending to act out a tea-making/drinking
>> scenario in imitation of the Japanese ceremony.
>>
>> What all the ingredients of the Japanese tea ceremony are, I'm not
>> sure. Something about two people involved in the process, which is
>> done deliberately and appreciation of living close to the earth, as in
>> days of old.
>>
>> To bring out the child-like experience, I think it should be described
>> as a performance, or play, like children do when they are imitating
>> adults in some fantasy. In fact, it would probably be good if you
>> played at making tea with a child or two, having each do his/her part,
>> then tasting the result.
>>
>> Kids are great at pretending something be done in a certain way, being
>> an actor, etc.. Also, I think kids enjoy repeating the same
>> experience. Probably, they like correcting each other, too. bookburn
>
>I'm not sure if I understand exactly what this post is getting at...
>There is nothing wrong with any flight of fancy or whimsy and everyone
>is free to enjoy tea in the way that they choose. After a few years
>into my love of tea I began to really look admiringly at the tea
>ceremony, not long after the luster began to fade and the more I
>learned and researched the less I liked. Gong Fu/Kung Fu brewing is a
>different story though and was the perfect form of enjoyment for me.
>
>That being said, I don't think there is really a way to do what you
>speak of. The tea ceremony is very complex, rooted in tradition, and
>almost robotic precision. Maybe on a very surface-level goofy/fun way
>it could be achieved, but not much more. Beyond that I'm not sure a
>kid *should* or even could understand or internalize much of anything
>to do with tea. To enjoy it, fine, to respect tea, fine, but outside
>of that I can't see it.
>
>- Dominic

One might say that imitation is a sign of respect, and that playing
at/copying is learning. Maybe children are socialized by elders, and
participating in customary practices is useful instruction?

I have to confess not knowing what kids are doing when they play, but
it does seem we all need to play. Play involves the same stress
relief and relaxation we get from tea drinking, maybe?

I don't intend to make a case for children taking part in tea ceremony
in terms of game theory, but do think they understand and internalize
stuff all the time.

Regards, bookburn

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:03:40 -0800 (PST), toci >
wrote:

>On Jan 23, 1:49*pm, wrote:
>> What about approaching the tea drinking experience in a special way,
>> such as how a child might?
>>
>> To do this, I fancy pretending to act out a tea-making/drinking
>> scenario in imitation of the Japanese ceremony.
>>
>> What all the ingredients of the Japanese tea ceremony are, I'm not
>> sure. *Something about two people involved in the process, which is
>> done deliberately and appreciation of living close to the earth, as in
>> days of old.
>>
>> To bring out the child-like experience, I think it should be described
>> as a performance, or play, like children do when they are imitating
>> adults in some fantasy. *In fact, it would probably be good if you
>> played at making tea with a child or two, having each do his/her part,
>> then tasting the result.
>>
>> Kids are great at pretending something be done in a certain way, being
>> an actor, etc.. *Also, I think kids enjoy repeating the same
>> experience. *Probably, they like correcting each other, too. *bookburn
>
>Children should probably not drink anything with caffeine in it. The
>English tea party, with a tisane, has been fun for a lot of
>children. Toci

Lots of caffeine in soda pop, too. Okay, let's make weak tea and
drink only a tiny cup. I understand the artificial sweeteners, except
ones made of fruit extract, are unhealthy. Just think of all the
good things you could teach kids in a tea ceremony. bookburn

On Jan 24, 10:47 am, Thitherflit > wrote:
> On Jan 23, 3:24 pm, "Dominic T." > wrote:
>
> >The tea ceremony is very complex, rooted in tradition, and almost robotic precision.
>
> Dominic doesn't make tea ceremony sound very fun-- but *I* enjoy it,
> and some of my research has been about the question of why/how tea
> ceremony professionals enjoy it. This question has been actively
> ignored by people writing about tea ceremony (whether in English or in
> Japanese) in an effort to preserve the "profound" image... but, truth
> is, an ideal tea gathering should be relaxed, have doses of
> spontaneity, and be a concrete expression of the closeness of the
> participants... and, I'd say lots of tea gatherings achieve this
> ideal. I've even seen examples of somewhat rambunctious levity at
> very elite tea gatherings, and people thought they were both fun and
> successful gatherings.
>
> I should note that the tea ceremony teachers in Japan who are the most
> straight-laced, uptight and not-fun are teachers who seem to feel
> insecure in the art, often cowered by status fears. The more
> experienced/elite teachers are the ones who are more relaxed, who have
> an easier time at being generous (and forgiving) hosts, and who have a
> keener sense of *play*.
>
> I think the notion of "playing" at a self-created "tea ceremony" is
> nice: it is the creation of a ritual time and space when the
> participants can *focus*, something *I* consider to be healthy and
> healing. The advantage that I see in learning an established
> tradition of tea drinking is that you have a ready-made community of
> people with whom you can share this ritual experience. The caveat?
> Study with an elite teacher. (If you need hints about how to do
> *that*, drop me a note!)
>
> james-henry holland
> japanese language and culture
> hobart and william smith colleges
> geneva, new york 14456 usa

I'm not sure which school of the tea ceremony you are speaking about
when you mention "fun" but I guess it is relative. I make no bones
about my falling away from the tea ceremony, but that doesn't mean I
would deliberately paint it in a bad light. I have nothing against it
or those who practice it and keep it alive... in fact I am big on any
ethnic tradition, tea related or not.

Sado/Chado are fairly complex and each step is rooted in deep/complex
meaning and history. Ikebana, Shodo, wabi, etc. There is a pretty well
defined script that unfolds in the same order and manner each time.
That is the point of a ceremony or ritual, not so much variety and
spontenaity and fun.

Let me say this though, I don't personally believe that it needs to be
performed robotic and traditionally to be enjoyable... in fact just as
you say the more loose and inviting it is the better. However this
isn't really in the spirit of the actual ceremony and I can't actually
call it "Tea Ceremony" I call it Tea. And there is nothing wrong with
that.

IMHO,
- Dominic