I happened to find myself in the SF area for a photonics conference (as
one so often does), and managed to drop into a few tea spots between
wavicles. There seems to be a proliferation of such, similar in style
but very different in atmosphere. In case it's useful to anyone, here
are a few sententious comments:

- Imperial Tea Court, Chinatown and the Ferry Building.
I prefer the original location for dimmer, quieter, more retreat-like
atmosphere. The new location is separated from the (rather classy) Ferry
Building mall by not much more than a partial lattice, and on this nasty
January day was reasonably quiet but frigid. Have yet to meet Roy Fong,
who seems ever to be in the warehouse or out buying; but Grace is a
charming presence. They have a bunch of above-average pots and other
useful teaware, though the best pots are NFS. Plenty of tea on offer in
both locations, at high prices - generally, however, commensurate with
quality. Tastings are a bargain by comparison. Service by elegant young
men. (Why so rarely women in this business?)

The Ferry Building ITC location has a fair amount of food on offer; most
people there seemed to be more dining than drinking. Combined with
admittedly pleasant aromas from the center's other food and
personal-care vendors, I found this to be somewhat distracting.
Personally, were I in that neighborhood, I'd save my caloric quota for
Yank Sing, an upscale dim sum house in the heart of the Rincon Center
complex. Beyond the HK-class food, there's a kind of waterfall from the
atrium ceiling that adds good feng shui or something. I can't speak for
their tea, since I'd brought a very nice (code for "wanted it back right
away") new Yixing pot and a bag of SRT's cheapest but IMO best-tasting
fenghuang dan cong for my host.

I was somewhat uncomfortable with the instructional style, which I did
not experience directly (being a take-charge kinda guy) but repeatedly
witnessed. My impression was that both server/teachers and customers
were getting lost in mannered ritual at the expense of the tea. Watching
people awkwardly slurp from gaiwans instead of decanting was vicariously
embarrassing - nothing wrong with the act, but it was clearly out of
character for those partaking. Worse, they seem to use near-boiling
water indiscriminately. When I asked for something much cooler for our
long jing (a delicate green), I was politely asked what temperature I'd
like - a good response, but the wrong place to start. (I just asked for
a pot of cold water to mix ad lib.) I'm wondering how many people who
start the cha dao here (or in many other places) ever learn that green
tea does not taste like spinach? Even many oolongs can't take this
treatment. As long as I'm ranting, I'll also complain about the gaiwan
we were given, much too large for the amount of leaf it contained. I
dropped a broad hint, and was offered another a good 10% smaller.

- Red Blossom Tea Company, Chinatown.
This tiny, deep shop has just a couple of tasting tables between rows of
paraphernalia, with most tea in the back. Pots and gaiwans fairly
priced, though most a bit fancy to my taste. Not exactly a secluded
experience, right on Grant St., but pleasant and informed service. And
the staff seemed able to establish a quiet zone around each table.

- Vital T-leaf, two Chinatown locations (head office in Seattle).
The main store is a magnet for extroverts, open to Grant St. and with a
riotous agglomeration of 20-something passersby enjoying free rounds at
the bar with the friendly energy of a post- (winning) game beer crowd.
Staff young as well, with Benihana-type cheerful showmanship blending
with as much serious information as people seemed able to absorb. A very
large range of teas, many flavored (not my cuppa) and flowers/herbs
(even a couple types of kuding) in tins and open trays, which may be OK
if turnover is high. Many Pu-erhs also on display, including
presentation bing and zhuanchas of at least two kg and a 30-yo shu cake
for $380. (Latter was plastic-wrapped, so the aroma was inaccessible.
Looked authentic, though.) Many pots at fair prices, though again only a
couple I'd want. My sense was that the staff was entirely prepared for a
much more serious tasting experience during times quieter than a
Saturday afternoon.

A couple of blocks uphill is a more intimate satellite shop, with a
representative stock (including the $380 shu bing) and less riotous
atmosphere.

- Teance, Berkeley. Best for last.
This was supposed to be the penultimate scene of a day's nostalgia tour
of Berkeley, following a walk around the Vine St. Gourmet Ghetto-as-was
(where I used to buy coffee in his one shop from Mr. Peet) and before
trooping up Grizzly Peak for a characteristically stunning sunset. A
careful drive along Solano failed to produce this establishment, even as
an emergency call to Joe K. confirmed the location. Fortunately, my
friend's Blackberry was web-enabled, so we were able to discover that
they had just moved down to the Flats. The unprepossessing neighborhood
prompted speculation about marketing mistakes, but their new (of two
months) home proved to be in the middle of a cluster of assorted shops
and restaurants fine enough to qualify the whole as a Destination.

Teance offers a stylishly sparse ambience reminiscent of, but more
elegant than, the late Wild Lily Tea Room. The front is an open shop,
with an appropriate number of teas and some nice teaware of diverse
styles - the celadon (per former establishment name) perhaps the best on
offer; three exceptional Yixings were unfortunately NFS.

The tasting area is a single circle of about a dozen seats in several
nicely designed stations, so as to be serviceable by one or several
people. Tasting are again a bargain for the quality. Our server, one
Darius (I forbore the bibulous pun about one man's Mede being another's
Persian) seemed quite well informed about the qualities of his stock,
and helped us to a selection of interesting oolongs. Aware that we were
not ignorant of technique, he also offered a broad range of pots and
gaiwans, as well as mixing and serving gear.

I was concerned at how empty the place was, given a sunny-Sunday mob in
the environs. Perhaps they do mostly a take-out business. At least until
it's (re-)discovered, though, I'd make it a top choice for area visitors
with transportation.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

On a final note, I stopped into a number of Asian grocery stores,
apothecaries and tchachke shops in the ongoing quest for
cheap'n'cheerful shu Pu-erh to bring to Chinese restaurants. Every such
place I looked had one, and only one, cheap bing on display: a 340g
"black tea" from Hung Chong Tai in HK, of which maker Samarkand has
written on RFDT:
groups.google.com/group/rec.food.drink.tea/msg/3a2c4b18381e83ac. Is this
a conspiracy? I did finally do the experiment of asking a back-alley TCM
outfit for something better, but that's another story.

DM

? I did finally do the experiment of asking a back-alley TCM
> outfit for something better, but that's another story.
>
Please, let's hear the story. I live in SF Chinatown area, and I
would love to know if you had any success.
-David L.

In Hang-Ah Alley, there's a little shop that carries some cool Yixing
and sometimes, pretty good tea.
Shen
On Jan 29, 8:35 pm, "Davelcorp" > wrote:
> ? I did finally do the experiment of asking a back-alley TCM> outfit for something better, but that's another story.
>
> Please, let's hear the story. I live in SF Chinatown area, and I
> would love to know if you had any success.
> -David L.

On Jan 29, 9:43 pm, "Shen" > wrote:
> In Hang-Ah Alley, there's a little shop that carries some cool Yixing
> and sometimes, pretty good tea.
> Shen
> On Jan 29, 8:35 pm, "Davelcorp" > wrote:
>
> > ? I did finally do the experiment of asking a back-alley TCM> outfit for something better, but that's another story.
>
> > Please, let's hear the story. I live in SF Chinatown area, and I
> > would love to know if you had any success.
> > -David L.

I'll check it out tomorrow (and get lunch at Hang Ah.)
-David L.

DogMa,

Thanks for the comments. I'll be in SF next week, and I planned to visit
Red Blossom, having recently purchased two reasonably-priced gaiwans from
them.

I always make a pilgrimage to ITC whenever I'm in town - the prices are
high, but so is the quality. The last time I was there I got a Baozhong
that was IMHO just about perfect: balanced, floral and good for 6-8 steeps.
At $20/oz though, it ought to be .

I don't like drinking from gaiwans either, but I assume I can ask for a cup
to decant into.

Dean

"DogMa" > wrote in message
...
>I happened to find myself in the SF area for a photonics conference (as one
>so often does), and managed to drop into a few tea spots between wavicles.
>There seems to be a proliferation of such, similar in style but very
>different in atmosphere. In case it's useful to anyone, here are a few
>sententious comments:
>
> - Imperial Tea Court, Chinatown and the Ferry Building.
> I prefer the original location for dimmer, quieter, more retreat-like
> atmosphere. The new location is separated from the (rather classy) Ferry
> Building mall by not much more than a partial lattice, and on this nasty
> January day was reasonably quiet but frigid. Have yet to meet Roy Fong,
> who seems ever to be in the warehouse or out buying; but Grace is a
> charming presence. They have a bunch of above-average pots and other
> useful teaware, though the best pots are NFS. Plenty of tea on offer in
> both locations, at high prices - generally, however, commensurate with
> quality. Tastings are a bargain by comparison. Service by elegant young
> men. (Why so rarely women in this business?)
>
> The Ferry Building ITC location has a fair amount of food on offer; most
> people there seemed to be more dining than drinking. Combined with
> admittedly pleasant aromas from the center's other food and personal-care
> vendors, I found this to be somewhat distracting. Personally, were I in
> that neighborhood, I'd save my caloric quota for Yank Sing, an upscale dim
> sum house in the heart of the Rincon Center complex. Beyond the HK-class
> food, there's a kind of waterfall from the atrium ceiling that adds good
> feng shui or something. I can't speak for their tea, since I'd brought a
> very nice (code for "wanted it back right away") new Yixing pot and a bag
> of SRT's cheapest but IMO best-tasting fenghuang dan cong for my host.
>
> I was somewhat uncomfortable with the instructional style, which I did not
> experience directly (being a take-charge kinda guy) but repeatedly
> witnessed. My impression was that both server/teachers and customers were
> getting lost in mannered ritual at the expense of the tea. Watching people
> awkwardly slurp from gaiwans instead of decanting was vicariously
> embarrassing - nothing wrong with the act, but it was clearly out of
> character for those partaking. Worse, they seem to use near-boiling water
> indiscriminately. When I asked for something much cooler for our long jing
> (a delicate green), I was politely asked what temperature I'd like - a
> good response, but the wrong place to start. (I just asked for a pot of
> cold water to mix ad lib.) I'm wondering how many people who start the cha
> dao here (or in many other places) ever learn that green tea does not
> taste like spinach? Even many oolongs can't take this treatment. As long
> as I'm ranting, I'll also complain about the gaiwan we were given, much
> too large for the amount of leaf it contained. I dropped a broad hint, and
> was offered another a good 10% smaller.
>
> - Red Blossom Tea Company, Chinatown.
> This tiny, deep shop has just a couple of tasting tables between rows of
> paraphernalia, with most tea in the back. Pots and gaiwans fairly priced,
> though most a bit fancy to my taste. Not exactly a secluded experience,
> right on Grant St., but pleasant and informed service. And the staff
> seemed able to establish a quiet zone around each table.
>
> - Vital T-leaf, two Chinatown locations (head office in Seattle).
> The main store is a magnet for extroverts, open to Grant St. and with a
> riotous agglomeration of 20-something passersby enjoying free rounds at
> the bar with the friendly energy of a post- (winning) game beer crowd.
> Staff young as well, with Benihana-type cheerful showmanship blending with
> as much serious information as people seemed able to absorb. A very large
> range of teas, many flavored (not my cuppa) and flowers/herbs (even a
> couple types of kuding) in tins and open trays, which may be OK if
> turnover is high. Many Pu-erhs also on display, including presentation
> bing and zhuanchas of at least two kg and a 30-yo shu cake for $380.
> (Latter was plastic-wrapped, so the aroma was inaccessible. Looked
> authentic, though.) Many pots at fair prices, though again only a couple
> I'd want. My sense was that the staff was entirely prepared for a much
> more serious tasting experience during times quieter than a Saturday
> afternoon.
>
> A couple of blocks uphill is a more intimate satellite shop, with a
> representative stock (including the $380 shu bing) and less riotous
> atmosphere.
>
> - Teance, Berkeley. Best for last.
> This was supposed to be the penultimate scene of a day's nostalgia tour of
> Berkeley, following a walk around the Vine St. Gourmet Ghetto-as-was
> (where I used to buy coffee in his one shop from Mr. Peet) and before
> trooping up Grizzly Peak for a characteristically stunning sunset. A
> careful drive along Solano failed to produce this establishment, even as
> an emergency call to Joe K. confirmed the location. Fortunately, my
> friend's Blackberry was web-enabled, so we were able to discover that they
> had just moved down to the Flats. The unprepossessing neighborhood
> prompted speculation about marketing mistakes, but their new (of two
> months) home proved to be in the middle of a cluster of assorted shops and
> restaurants fine enough to qualify the whole as a Destination.
>
> Teance offers a stylishly sparse ambience reminiscent of, but more elegant
> than, the late Wild Lily Tea Room. The front is an open shop, with an
> appropriate number of teas and some nice teaware of diverse styles - the
> celadon (per former establishment name) perhaps the best on offer; three
> exceptional Yixings were unfortunately NFS.
>
> The tasting area is a single circle of about a dozen seats in several
> nicely designed stations, so as to be serviceable by one or several
> people. Tasting are again a bargain for the quality. Our server, one
> Darius (I forbore the bibulous pun about one man's Mede being another's
> Persian) seemed quite well informed about the qualities of his stock, and
> helped us to a selection of interesting oolongs. Aware that we were not
> ignorant of technique, he also offered a broad range of pots and gaiwans,
> as well as mixing and serving gear.
>
> I was concerned at how empty the place was, given a sunny-Sunday mob in
> the environs. Perhaps they do mostly a take-out business. At least until
> it's (re-)discovered, though, I'd make it a top choice for area visitors
> with transportation.
>
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
>
> On a final note, I stopped into a number of Asian grocery stores,
> apothecaries and tchachke shops in the ongoing quest for cheap'n'cheerful
> shu Pu-erh to bring to Chinese restaurants. Every such place I looked had
> one, and only one, cheap bing on display: a 340g "black tea" from Hung
> Chong Tai in HK, of which maker Samarkand has written on RFDT:
> groups.google.com/group/rec.food.drink.tea/msg/3a2c4b18381e83ac. Is this a
> conspiracy? I did finally do the experiment of asking a back-alley TCM
> outfit for something better, but that's another story.
>
> DM

On Jan 30, 11:04 am, "DPM" > wrote:
> DogMa,
>
> Thanks for the comments. I'll be in SF next week, and I planned to visit
> Red Blossom, having recently purchased two reasonably-priced gaiwans from
> them.
>
> I always make a pilgrimage to ITC whenever I'm in town - the prices are
> high, but so is the quality. The last time I was there I got a Baozhong
> that was IMHO just about perfect: balanced, floral and good for 6-8 steeps.
> At $20/oz though, it ought to be .
>
> I don't like drinking from gaiwans either, but I assume I can ask for a cup
> to decant into.
>
> Dean
>
> "DogMa" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >I happened to find myself in the SF area for a photonics conference (as one
> >so often does), and managed to drop into a few tea spots between wavicles.
> >There seems to be a proliferation of such, similar in style but very
> >different in atmosphere. In case it's useful to anyone, here are a few
> >sententious comments:
>
> > - Imperial Tea Court, Chinatown and the Ferry Building.
> > I prefer the original location for dimmer, quieter, more retreat-like
> > atmosphere. The new location is separated from the (rather classy) Ferry
> > Building mall by not much more than a partial lattice, and on this nasty
> > January day was reasonably quiet but frigid. Have yet to meet Roy Fong,
> > who seems ever to be in the warehouse or out buying; but Grace is a
> > charming presence. They have a bunch of above-average pots and other
> > useful teaware, though the best pots are NFS. Plenty of tea on offer in
> > both locations, at high prices - generally, however, commensurate with
> > quality. Tastings are a bargain by comparison. Service by elegant young
> > men. (Why so rarely women in this business?)
>
> > The Ferry Building ITC location has a fair amount of food on offer; most
> > people there seemed to be more dining than drinking. Combined with
> > admittedly pleasant aromas from the center's other food and personal-care
> > vendors, I found this to be somewhat distracting. Personally, were I in
> > that neighborhood, I'd save my caloric quota for Yank Sing, an upscale dim
> > sum house in the heart of the Rincon Center complex. Beyond the HK-class
> > food, there's a kind of waterfall from the atrium ceiling that adds good
> > feng shui or something. I can't speak for their tea, since I'd brought a
> > very nice (code for "wanted it back right away") new Yixing pot and a bag
> > of SRT's cheapest but IMO best-tasting fenghuang dan cong for my host.
>
> > I was somewhat uncomfortable with the instructional style, which I did not
> > experience directly (being a take-charge kinda guy) but repeatedly
> > witnessed. My impression was that both server/teachers and customers were
> > getting lost in mannered ritual at the expense of the tea. Watching people
> > awkwardly slurp from gaiwans instead of decanting was vicariously
> > embarrassing - nothing wrong with the act, but it was clearly out of
> > character for those partaking. Worse, they seem to use near-boiling water
> > indiscriminately. When I asked for something much cooler for our long jing
> > (a delicate green), I was politely asked what temperature I'd like - a
> > good response, but the wrong place to start. (I just asked for a pot of
> > cold water to mix ad lib.) I'm wondering how many people who start the cha
> > dao here (or in many other places) ever learn that green tea does not
> > taste like spinach? Even many oolongs can't take this treatment. As long
> > as I'm ranting, I'll also complain about the gaiwan we were given, much
> > too large for the amount of leaf it contained. I dropped a broad hint, and
> > was offered another a good 10% smaller.
>
> > - Red Blossom Tea Company, Chinatown.
> > This tiny, deep shop has just a couple of tasting tables between rows of
> > paraphernalia, with most tea in the back. Pots and gaiwans fairly priced,
> > though most a bit fancy to my taste. Not exactly a secluded experience,
> > right on Grant St., but pleasant and informed service. And the staff
> > seemed able to establish a quiet zone around each table.
>
> > - Vital T-leaf, two Chinatown locations (head office in Seattle).
> > The main store is a magnet for extroverts, open to Grant St. and with a
> > riotous agglomeration of 20-something passersby enjoying free rounds at
> > the bar with the friendly energy of a post- (winning) game beer crowd.
> > Staff young as well, with Benihana-type cheerful showmanship blending with
> > as much serious information as people seemed able to absorb. A very large
> > range of teas, many flavored (not my cuppa) and flowers/herbs (even a
> > couple types of kuding) in tins and open trays, which may be OK if
> > turnover is high. Many Pu-erhs also on display, including presentation
> > bing and zhuanchas of at least two kg and a 30-yo shu cake for $380.
> > (Latter was plastic-wrapped, so the aroma was inaccessible. Looked
> > authentic, though.) Many pots at fair prices, though again only a couple
> > I'd want. My sense was that the staff was entirely prepared for a much
> > more serious tasting experience during times quieter than a Saturday
> > afternoon.
>
> > A couple of blocks uphill is a more intimate satellite shop, with a
> > representative stock (including the $380 shu bing) and less riotous
> > atmosphere.
>
> > - Teance, Berkeley. Best for last.
> > This was supposed to be the penultimate scene of a day's nostalgia tour of
> > Berkeley, following a walk around the Vine St. Gourmet Ghetto-as-was
> > (where I used to buy coffee in his one shop from Mr. Peet) and before
> > trooping up Grizzly Peak for a characteristically stunning sunset. A
> > careful drive along Solano failed to produce this establishment, even as
> > an emergency call to Joe K. confirmed the location. Fortunately, my
> > friend's Blackberry was web-enabled, so we were able to discover that they
> > had just moved down to the Flats. The unprepossessing neighborhood
> > prompted speculation about marketing mistakes, but their new (of two
> > months) home proved to be in the middle of a cluster of assorted shops and
> > restaurants fine enough to qualify the whole as a Destination.
>
> > Teance offers a stylishly sparse ambience reminiscent of, but more elegant
> > than, the late Wild Lily Tea Room. The front is an open shop, with an
> > appropriate number of teas and some nice teaware of diverse styles - the
> > celadon (per former establishment name) perhaps the best on offer; three
> > exceptional Yixings were unfortunately NFS.
>
> > The tasting area is a single circle of about a dozen seats in several
> > nicely designed stations, so as to be serviceable by one or several
> > people. Tasting are again a bargain for the quality. Our server, one
> > Darius (I forbore the bibulous pun about one man's Mede being another's
> > Persian) seemed quite well informed about the qualities of his stock, and
> > helped us to a selection of interesting oolongs. Aware that we were not
> > ignorant of technique, he also offered a broad range of pots and gaiwans,
> > as well as mixing and serving gear.
>
> > I was concerned at how empty the place was, given a sunny-Sunday mob in
> > the environs. Perhaps they do mostly a take-out business. At least until
> > it's (re-)discovered, though, I'd make it a top choice for area visitors
> > with transportation.
>
> > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
>
> > On a final note, I stopped into a number of Asian grocery stores,
> > apothecaries and tchachke shops in the ongoing quest for cheap'n'cheerful
> > shu Pu-erh to bring to Chinese restaurants. Every such place I looked had
> > one, and only one, cheap bing on display: a 340g "black tea" from Hung
> > Chong Tai in HK, of which maker Samarkand has written on RFDT:
> > groups.google.com/group/rec.food.drink.tea/msg/3a2c4b18381e83ac. Is this a
> > conspiracy? I did finally do the experiment of asking a back-alley TCM
> > outfit for something better, but that's another story.
>
> > DM

The last time I was at ITC in the Ferry building, I ordered a gaiwan
of a yan cha. I asked if I could have a reserve pitcher to decant
into. I was told that I would have to pay for a gong fu service, and
they don't offer that to individuals. I gave the server a puzzled
look and seitched my order to a green tea and proceeded to sip from
the gaiwan.
-D

Following my note of 1/29/07, I've been fascinated by remarks on- and
off-list. Some people seemed to find the OP useful. Many immediately
criticized the quality, presentation or practices at various
establishments. Others leapt to the defense of their favorites shops.

One does not expect even-tempered commentary on Usenet. At least I owned
up to "a few sententious comments" - i.e., frankly opinionated and not
comprehensive.

IMO, "real" shop/restaurant reviews require a perspective and
objectivity that require multiple visits at different times of days,
days of the week, times of year, and company. (And then the issue is
complicated by familiarity with the proprietors.) Mine were summary
comments on hasty visits, only one to a place I'd been previously.

Likewise, discernment and subject-matter expertise are critical (so to
speak), though not necessarily in equal amounts. My taste sense is
apparently much less capable, and certainly less educated, than those of
many people here. My knowledge of tea is yet several orders diminished.
However, we probably all share an equal capacity for absorption in tea
and tea service, and in the enjoyment thereof.

I wouldn't presume to doubt anyone else's experience. My current
favorite oolong is a commercial product from Anxi, which I suspect costs
about a buck a box (over there). I have had nastily mediocre dan congs
in the $300/lb range even from the much-reputed Silk Road. The two teas
I tried at Teance were excellent, and the oolong I sipped at the Vital
T-leaf was perfectly acceptable. Possibly I got lucky.

However, I was not in any event writing formal reviews; rather, offering
some semi-qualified options for anyone else who might be visiting the
town, and to start comment (which it did). After some of the adverse
responses, I had a look at snapshots from the Vital bistro. Here is what
I see: a SRO full house, with every guest smiling or laughing. Staff of
diverse ages entirely attentive to and respectful of guests. A balance
of just-plain-fun and gentle education. A lot of tea in glass-fronted
bins, some open, and a lot more better protected.

I'm not trying to "sell" any establishment. I consider ITC to be
overpriced and pretentious, and in the Ferry building case deficient in
atmosphere. I consider Red Blossom to be far more serious and welcoming,
but a little claustrophobic (though probably much nicer on a weekday). I
had a good time with a friend at Teance. I did not even sit down at
Vital T; too rambunctious by far. But the people there were having a
wonderful time. All of them. And what's it all about, anyway?

One thing I've found in several decades of globe-trotting gourmandise is
that many different networks will reliably guide one to the "best of" -
and that's without even the Web. Forums like this are a great vehicle
for exchange of delights. Perhaps it's useful to bear in mind that we
all have different tastes and standards. Short of deceptive practices,
which get "outed" pretty quickly, it's all a matter of taste. Let's help
each other - including lurkers and future readers of the archive - to
have fun in whatever way and at whatever level suits.

-DM

On Mar 3, 6:31 am, DogMa > wrote:
> Following my note of 1/29/07, I've been fascinated by remarks on- and
> off-list. Some people seemed to find the OP useful. Many immediately
> criticized the quality, presentation or practices at various
> establishments. Others leapt to the defense of their favorites shops.
>
> One does not expect even-tempered commentary on Usenet. At least I owned
> up to "a few sententious comments" - i.e., frankly opinionated and not
> comprehensive.
>
> IMO, "real" shop/restaurant reviews require a perspective and
> objectivity that require multiple visits at different times of days,
> days of the week, times of year, and company. (And then the issue is
> complicated by familiarity with the proprietors.) Mine were summary
> comments on hasty visits, only one to a place I'd been previously.
>
> Likewise, discernment and subject-matter expertise are critical (so to
> speak), though not necessarily in equal amounts. My taste sense is
> apparently much less capable, and certainly less educated, than those of
> many people here. My knowledge of tea is yet several orders diminished.
> However, we probably all share an equal capacity for absorption in tea
> and tea service, and in the enjoyment thereof.
>
> I wouldn't presume to doubt anyone else's experience. My current
> favorite oolong is a commercial product from Anxi, which I suspect costs
> about a buck a box (over there). I have had nastily mediocre dan congs
> in the $300/lb range even from the much-reputed Silk Road. The two teas
> I tried at Teance were excellent, and the oolong I sipped at the Vital
> T-leaf was perfectly acceptable. Possibly I got lucky.
>
> However, I was not in any event writing formal reviews; rather, offering
> some semi-qualified options for anyone else who might be visiting the
> town, and to start comment (which it did). After some of the adverse
> responses, I had a look at snapshots from the Vital bistro. Here is what
> I see: a SRO full house, with every guest smiling or laughing. Staff of
> diverse ages entirely attentive to and respectful of guests. A balance
> of just-plain-fun and gentle education. A lot of tea in glass-fronted
> bins, some open, and a lot more better protected.
>
> I'm not trying to "sell" any establishment. I consider ITC to be
> overpriced and pretentious, and in the Ferry building case deficient in
> atmosphere. I consider Red Blossom to be far more serious and welcoming,
> but a little claustrophobic (though probably much nicer on a weekday). I
> had a good time with a friend at Teance. I did not even sit down at
> Vital T; too rambunctious by far. But the people there were having a
> wonderful time. All of them. And what's it all about, anyway?
>
> One thing I've found in several decades of globe-trotting gourmandise is
> that many different networks will reliably guide one to the "best of" -
> and that's without even the Web. Forums like this are a great vehicle
> for exchange of delights. Perhaps it's useful to bear in mind that we
> all have different tastes and standards. Short of deceptive practices,
> which get "outed" pretty quickly, it's all a matter of taste. Let's help
> each other - including lurkers and future readers of the archive - to
> have fun in whatever way and at whatever level suits.
>
> -DM

Although, I am pretty new to all of this, I admit: yes, I am a tea
snob.
Initially, I had criticized Mr. Fong for his secrecy. However, the
quality of the teas I've had from ITC, for the most part, have been
fairly priced (just a little high) and very, very good - especially
his Imperial selections. After all, an oz. of most teas goes a way.
I do enjoy the honesty, knowlege and care with which the proprietors
of Red Blossom approach their business. It is a crowded shop, yes;
but, it's nearly impossible to get decent space on Grant Street that
doesn't "cost an arm and a leg".
After all, they inherited the space from their grandpa and dad when it
was just a little Chinatown herb store.
As for my criticism (subjective as criticism is) of Teance or Vital, I
have frequented them often.I gave it a good shot. I live here in
Berkeley and at least twice a week head off tea shopping, either
nearby or in one of our two Chinatowns. There are better, cheaper,
fresher places in the area. And, too, Vitals are very highly priced
and do cater to the tourist trade in Chinatown.
My main objection to Teance is that their teas sit out in their bins
for quite a long time. They are ALL prepackaged and the sample you get
in a tasting is not always the product you take home in the sealed
bag, since all their teas are prepared in their warehouse. Personally,
I like to buy a little of this, a little of that and have the vendor
package it in front of me, especially if I've had a tasting of
something in the store. When I shop online, I tend to go to vendors
I've done considerable business with, as well.
Who's to say that being really fussy about the quality and care of tea
isn't fun? And, you're right: it is all matter of taste.
As far as ITC in the ferry building goes: unfortunately, they will not
be there much longer. ITC and all the other wonderful purveyors will
be relocating because the building will be closed and may or may not
(depending on the decisons of the City Council, earthquake
preparedness and funding) re-open. If it fails to re-open, it will be
sorely missed by all of us that live here and those who visit.
BTW, glad you got to spend some time in our great area of the world.
Shen (fast-becoming a committed tea snob)

On Mar 3, 4:43 pm, "Shen" > wrote:
> On Mar 3, 6:31 am, DogMa > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Following my note of 1/29/07, I've been fascinated by remarks on- and
> > off-list. Some people seemed to find the OP useful. Many immediately
> > criticized the quality, presentation or practices at various
> > establishments. Others leapt to the defense of their favorites shops.
>
> > One does not expect even-tempered commentary on Usenet. At least I owned
> > up to "a few sententious comments" - i.e., frankly opinionated and not
> > comprehensive.
>
> > IMO, "real" shop/restaurant reviews require a perspective and
> > objectivity that require multiple visits at different times of days,
> > days of the week, times of year, and company. (And then the issue is
> > complicated by familiarity with the proprietors.) Mine were summary
> > comments on hasty visits, only one to a place I'd been previously.
>
> > Likewise, discernment and subject-matter expertise are critical (so to
> > speak), though not necessarily in equal amounts. My taste sense is
> > apparently much less capable, and certainly less educated, than those of
> > many people here. My knowledge of tea is yet several orders diminished.
> > However, we probably all share an equal capacity for absorption in tea
> > and tea service, and in the enjoyment thereof.
>
> > I wouldn't presume to doubt anyone else's experience. My current
> > favorite oolong is a commercial product from Anxi, which I suspect costs
> > about a buck a box (over there). I have had nastily mediocre dan congs
> > in the $300/lb range even from the much-reputed Silk Road. The two teas
> > I tried at Teance were excellent, and the oolong I sipped at the Vital
> > T-leaf was perfectly acceptable. Possibly I got lucky.
>
> > However, I was not in any event writing formal reviews; rather, offering
> > some semi-qualified options for anyone else who might be visiting the
> > town, and to start comment (which it did). After some of the adverse
> > responses, I had a look at snapshots from the Vital bistro. Here is what
> > I see: a SRO full house, with every guest smiling or laughing. Staff of
> > diverse ages entirely attentive to and respectful of guests. A balance
> > of just-plain-fun and gentle education. A lot of tea in glass-fronted
> > bins, some open, and a lot more better protected.
>
> > I'm not trying to "sell" any establishment. I consider ITC to be
> > overpriced and pretentious, and in the Ferry building case deficient in
> > atmosphere. I consider Red Blossom to be far more serious and welcoming,
> > but a little claustrophobic (though probably much nicer on a weekday). I
> > had a good time with a friend at Teance. I did not even sit down at
> > Vital T; too rambunctious by far. But the people there were having a
> > wonderful time. All of them. And what's it all about, anyway?
>
> > One thing I've found in several decades of globe-trotting gourmandise is
> > that many different networks will reliably guide one to the "best of" -
> > and that's without even the Web. Forums like this are a great vehicle
> > for exchange of delights. Perhaps it's useful to bear in mind that we
> > all have different tastes and standards. Short of deceptive practices,
> > which get "outed" pretty quickly, it's all a matter of taste. Let's help
> > each other - including lurkers and future readers of the archive - to
> > have fun in whatever way and at whatever level suits.
>
> > -DM
>
> Although, I am pretty new to all of this, I admit: yes, I am a tea
> snob.
> Initially, I had criticized Mr. Fong for his secrecy. However, the
> quality of the teas I've had from ITC, for the most part, have been
> fairly priced (just a little high) and very, very good - especially
> his Imperial selections. After all, an oz. of most teas goes a way.
> I do enjoy the honesty, knowlege and care with which the proprietors
> of Red Blossom approach their business. It is a crowded shop, yes;
> but, it's nearly impossible to get decent space on Grant Street that
> doesn't "cost an arm and a leg".
> After all, they inherited the space from their grandpa and dad when it
> was just a little Chinatown herb store.
> As for my criticism (subjective as criticism is) of Teance or Vital, I
> have frequented them often.I gave it a good shot. I live here in
> Berkeley and at least twice a week head off tea shopping, either
> nearby or in one of our two Chinatowns. There are better, cheaper,
> fresher places in the area. And, too, Vitals are very highly priced
> and do cater to the tourist trade in Chinatown.
> My main objection to Teance is that their teas sit out in their bins
> for quite a long time. They are ALL prepackaged and the sample you get
> in a tasting is not always the product you take home in the sealed
> bag, since all their teas are prepared in their warehouse. Personally,
> I like to buy a little of this, a little of that and have the vendor
> package it in front of me, especially if I've had a tasting of
> something in the store. When I shop online, I tend to go to vendors
> I've done considerable business with, as well.
> Who's to say that being really fussy about the quality and care of tea
> isn't fun? And, you're right: it is all matter of taste.
> As far as ITC in the ferry building goes: unfortunately, they will not
> be there much longer. ITC and all the other wonderful purveyors will
> be relocating because the building will be closed and may or may not
> (depending on the decisons of the City Council, earthquake
> preparedness and funding) re-open. If it fails to re-open, it will be
> sorely missed by all of us that live here and those who visit.
> BTW, glad you got to spend some time in our great area of the world.
> Shen (fast-becoming a committed tea snob)

I agree regarding Teance. I've had good green teas there and a nice
charcoal roasted TGY but their puerh and some of their oolongs are not
the best tasting; not because the tea isn't of high quality but I
think it gets stale in some part of the process. They are nowhere
near as good as ITC's best selections or some of the internet
purveyors in my humble opinion.

I know I need a long time to make up my mind about any tea. So much
so, I've given up and enjoy the provenance as much as anything else.
Each one of my teas has a story. My local tea shoppe isn't how I
would run a tea shoppe. I'd dump the silly little pots and replace
them with a 1 liter glass carafe with a gill strainer and a webcam. I
don't have to pay the bills. My local owner has fullfilled his vision
of an English tea shoppe full of women with money to spend. I duck in
there time to time to see what new is on the shelves and get a cup to
go. A Nilgiri green hit the spot this morning. It's been on my C
list for a year. I enjoy the stories and experiences of fellow tea
drinkers in this group. The only taste buds that count are mine.

Jim

PS I was rearranging my QiZi over the weekend and one of my tongs was
one short.

On Mar 3, 7:31 am, DogMa > wrote:
> Following my note of 1/29/07, I've been fascinated by remarks on- and
> off-list. Some people seemed to find the OP useful. Many immediately
> criticized the quality, presentation or practices at various
> establishments. Others leapt to the defense of their favorites shops.
....I know where to look...