Roy Fong at ITC is a stickler for how a tea feels in the mouth; he has
at times espoused a technique involving sipping the tea, holding it in
the front of the mouth and using the tongue to determine how thick or
silky the tea tastes before swallowing it. Since I became aware of this
I've really changed how I judge puerh teas. The really good ones
sometimes have a very subtle taste but great mouthfeel, although one
would hope they would have both.

I'm really digging YSLLCs '97 Xia Guan cooked cake right now, btw.

Michael Plant wrote:
> snip snip snip
>
> > I tend to become
> > inexplicably violent when I read other people using the word
> > "mouthfeel". Then again, I use more than my share of silly words, so
> > I'm sure it all evens out in the end.
>
> Guilty. The feel of the tea in the mouth
> is part of the tea's pleasure, and when it is
> too thin or too thick, it can ruin the overall
> experience. This is especially true for old
> Sheng Pu'erhs and for well roasted WuYi's.
> When the mouthfeel is right, there is an ever
> changing flavor coating in the mouth and on
> the tongue, especially perhaps at the back of
> the throat. This can move from sweet carmel
> to wood or bitter/sour notes. You can hardly
> speak of Bao Zhong without speaking of its
> feel in the mouth. These are solely my own
> opinions. I don't mean to imply that others
> should feel the same way.
>
> I know what you mean by silly words, though.
> Ultimately, all words are silly when it comes to
> tea drinking.
>
> How do I drink? I sniff dry leaf, wet leaf,
> lid, liquor, empty cup, gaiwan, or pot by
> turns and at the right moments as the mood
> strikes, and with others whenever these
> things are offered to me for inspection. I
> drink by slurp and gurgle and slosh in
> quiet concentration. Most amazing to me
> is how the tea unfolds when I'm focused
> on it, and how different the tea drinking
> experience is when I'm not. Breathing out
> to enjoy the tea's aroma has been mentioned
> to me before in other context. I have to
> remind myself to do it. It's worth the effort.
>
> I think by the way that that is one of the
> best questions that's gotten asked around
> here in quite awhile. Praise to the original
> poster.
>
> Michael

Danica wrote:
> Roy Fong at ITC is a stickler for how a tea feels in the mouth; he has
> at times espoused a technique involving sipping the tea, holding it in
> the front of the mouth and using the tongue to determine how thick or
> silky the tea tastes before swallowing it. Since I became aware of this
> I've really changed how I judge puerh teas. The really good ones
> sometimes have a very subtle taste but great mouthfeel, although one
> would hope they would have both.
>
> I'm really digging YSLLCs '97 Xia Guan cooked cake right now, btw.
>

I use the term "mouthfeel" because it's a direct translation of the
word "kougan". There's no way to describe that term.

For young puerh, it is pretty much the ONLY criteria that should be
used to evaluate the tea, because almost all the flavours will change
over the course of aging, but mouthfeel is something that will stay
constant and will tell you more about the quality of the tea than any
flavour you're getting from it for now. A puerh that tastes great now
might not age into something great, and vice versa. In fact, if a
puerh tastes too good (for example, if it reminds you of a good oolong)
it's probably not good for aging. If it's not bitter at all or not
astringent at all, it's probably not good for aging. If it's too
fragrant, it's probably not good for aging.

While I'm not in the "it has to taste nasty now for it to be great"
school, it is unfortunately true that some producers now are making
puerh that tastes great now, but at the possible price of its future.
Some renowned Taiwanese puerh makers are guilty of this.

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

"MarshalN" > writes:

> [...]
>
> I use the term "mouthfeel" because it's a direct translation of the
> word "kougan". There's no way to describe that term.
>
> For young puerh, it is pretty much the ONLY criteria that should be
> used to evaluate the tea, because almost all the flavours will change
> over the course of aging, but mouthfeel is something that will stay
> constant and will tell you more about the quality of the tea than any
> flavour you're getting from it for now.

Could you describe what pleases your mouth in a Pu'er?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
always apposite: Cha Zhi Fou Zang Cun Yu Kou Jue

On 8 Nov 2006 12:45:21 -0800, "MarshalN" > wrote:

>For young puerh, it is pretty much the ONLY criteria that should be
>used to evaluate the tea, because almost all the flavours will change
>over the course of aging, but mouthfeel is something that will stay
>constant and will tell you more about the quality of the tea than any
>flavour you're getting from it for now. A puerh that tastes great now
>might not age into something great, and vice versa. In fact, if a
>puerh tastes too good (for example, if it reminds you of a good oolong)
>it's probably not good for aging. If it's not bitter at all or not
>astringent at all, it's probably not good for aging. If it's too
>fragrant, it's probably not good for aging.
>
>While I'm not in the "it has to taste nasty now for it to be great"
>school, it is unfortunately true that some producers now are making
>puerh that tastes great now, but at the possible price of its future.
>Some renowned Taiwanese puerh makers are guilty of this.

A large Puerh dealer in Kunming, who tutored me early on, held similar
views. This guy sells literally sells tons of puerh every month, he
owns his own shop in the oldest market in Kunming, he also works
directly with the owners of that tea market itself in Kunming, he has
proven himself to me time and again as being extremely knowledgeable
in his craft.

Anyway, he taught me that a good aging candidate will have a certain
strength in its youth, and that it is this strength that develops into
the characters we appreciate in an aged gem. He warned me against
investing in sweet tasting young puerhs like the silver tip ones that
are popular now. These taste great now but do not have that strength
(could he be referring to a form of Qi?) that make them worthy of
taking up storage space for years. He also warned me against many of
these mild tasting young puerhs as they also do not have the strength
required for aging. Cakes that he sent me that he described as being
good candidates did have a lot of astringency and were often bitter,
they did not taste great when young but some were drinkable if you
acquire the taste for astringency, others were simply too strong. He
taught me to be conscious of the feeling in my body, to look for the
"flush" that would start in my chest and spread up through my head,
this was the strength he was referring to, not to be confused with
caffeine either.

Wang also warned me about many of these so called wild arbor cakes.
Many of them come from trees in old abandoned plantations. He spoke of
five families who used to own most of these plantations. He said many
of the plantations were abandoned because the soils had been depleted
and the trees simply did not yield good tea anymore. Now many,
particularly Taiwanese, speculators are investing in these old
plantations. The tea from them will not live up to the hype, from what
I am told.

--
Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net

Mike 11/10/06


> On 8 Nov 2006 12:45:21 -0800, "MarshalN" > wrote:
>
>> For young puerh, it is pretty much the ONLY criteria that should be
>> used to evaluate the tea, because almost all the flavours will change
>> over the course of aging, but mouthfeel is something that will stay
>> constant and will tell you more about the quality of the tea than any
>> flavour you're getting from it for now. A puerh that tastes great now
>> might not age into something great, and vice versa. In fact, if a
>> puerh tastes too good (for example, if it reminds you of a good oolong)
>> it's probably not good for aging. If it's not bitter at all or not
>> astringent at all, it's probably not good for aging. If it's too
>> fragrant, it's probably not good for aging.
>>
>> While I'm not in the "it has to taste nasty now for it to be great"
>> school, it is unfortunately true that some producers now are making
>> puerh that tastes great now, but at the possible price of its future.
>> Some renowned Taiwanese puerh makers are guilty of this.
>
> A large Puerh dealer in Kunming, who tutored me early on, held similar
> views. This guy sells literally sells tons of puerh every month, he
> owns his own shop in the oldest market in Kunming, he also works
> directly with the owners of that tea market itself in Kunming, he has
> proven himself to me time and again as being extremely knowledgeable
> in his craft.

His credentials needn't be defended, as yours are impecable.

> Anyway, he taught me that a good aging candidate will have a certain
> strength in its youth, and that it is this strength that develops into
> the characters we appreciate in an aged gem. He warned me against
> investing in sweet tasting young puerhs like the silver tip ones that
> are popular now. These taste great now but do not have that strength
> (could he be referring to a form of Qi?) that make them worthy of
> taking up storage space for years. He also warned me against many of
> these mild tasting young puerhs as they also do not have the strength
> required for aging. Cakes that he sent me that he described as being
> good candidates did have a lot of astringency and were often bitter,
> they did not taste great when young but some were drinkable if you
> acquire the taste for astringency, others were simply too strong. He
> taught me to be conscious of the feeling in my body, to look for the
> "flush" that would start in my chest and spread up through my head,
> this was the strength he was referring to, not to be confused with
> caffeine either.

That last is the Qi of the tea, but I thought Qi develops with time and
patience over decades, so I'm surprised to hear that we expect strong Qi
from a new Pu'erh. BTW, I drank a 2004 silver bud Pu'erh the other day and
it was lovely, nice, gorgeous, and interesting. Don't expect it to last
forever, but for a few years, I expect great things.

> Wang also warned me about many of these so called wild arbor cakes.
> Many of them come from trees in old abandoned plantations. He spoke of
> five families who used to own most of these plantations. He said many
> of the plantations were abandoned because the soils had been depleted
> and the trees simply did not yield good tea anymore. Now many,
> particularly Taiwanese, speculators are investing in these old
> plantations. The tea from them will not live up to the hype, from what
> I am told.

The depletion of soil is an interesting idea. If an old plantation tree
depletes its soil, what about a 2500 year old tree growing out God knows
where? Can we say that a plantation is lower down the mountain and
the soil is more easily depleted? Can we say that the rock and flint of
the soil around the truly ancient tree keeps the leaf going for hundreds
of years? I have heard this soil depletion idea in reference to the
"original" Da Hong Po trees. What to think? BTW, just how old is this
popular idea of keeping sheng Pu'erh for many decades, enjoying the
improvements in taste, aroma, and style? I suspect the original plantation
planters did *not* subscribe to aging and waiting on purpose. So, in what
sense are those trees depleted? The mind boggles.

Michael

Michael Plant > writes:

> Mike 11/10/06
>
> > [...wild arbor Pu'er trees may suffer from depleted soil...]
>
> The depletion of soil is an interesting idea. If an old plantation
> tree depletes its soil, what about a 2500 year old tree growing out
> God knows where? Can we say that a plantation is lower down the
> mountain and the soil is more easily depleted? Can we say that the
> rock and flint of the soil around the truly ancient tree keeps the
> leaf going for hundreds of years? I have heard this soil depletion
> idea in reference to the "original" Da Hong Po trees. What to think?

You've hit on a very interesting point. Probably none of us, except
Nigel, could convincingly pose as an agronomist, but I do know that
this isn't as simple as it seems. Sure, tea plants subjected to
environmental stresses, e.g. poor nutrition, will yield less leaf, but
for high quality, there are cases where we demand that the trees or
shrubs be tortured:

- Yan cha, which doesn't get much sunlight and, in the case of the
really old trees, probably has depleted soil, too;

- Darjeeling, where it's cold and dim lots of the time, and even the
plants that are genetically identical to Assam shrubs yield far
better tasting (though less plentiful) leaf;

- Frost tea from Nilgiri, obviously;

- Oriental Beauty attacked by leafhoppers.

I don't doubt there are other examples.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Lewis Perin wrote:
> You've hit on a very interesting point. Probably none of us, except
> Nigel, could convincingly pose as an agronomist, but I do know that
> this isn't as simple as it seems. Sure, tea plants subjected to
> environmental stresses, e.g. poor nutrition, will yield less leaf, but
> for high quality, there are cases where we demand that the trees or
> shrubs be tortured:
>
> - Yan cha, which doesn't get much sunlight and, in the case of the
> really old trees, probably has depleted soil, too;
>
> - Darjeeling, where it's cold and dim lots of the time, and even the
> plants that are genetically identical to Assam shrubs yield far
> better tasting (though less plentiful) leaf;
>
> - Frost tea from Nilgiri, obviously;
>
> - Oriental Beauty attacked by leafhoppers.
>
> I don't doubt there are other examples.
>
> /Lew

Gyokuro, where they are kept in shade to produce the light-green color
and inhibit the production of chlorophyl.

I have been growing bonsai for many years now, and that is about as
much torture as you can bring upon a poor defenseless plant... and you
are correct. Nature is all about struggle and survival, they don't get
endless supplies of fertilizer and care and watering, and I do believe
that it is a positive thing for tea. I'm growing my own tea trees from
seeds and have been experimenting with each one. One in rocky soil, one
in regular soil, one being fertilized, one not, and one bonsai. I'm
hoping to eventually see (and possibly taste) the effects first-hand in
a few years.

Not that care will not produce more leaf and even more quality leaf,
but I prefer the real thing. Wild, fairly au natural, and then produced
with care and minimal processing. I don't mind if taste and quality
vary year to year, to me that is the fun of it. Of the puerh I have
bought, I tend to go toward the wild tree/old tree stuff (real or not
who knows) but it does have a different quality than the other puerh I
have bought and I like it.

Similar to my love for Canadian Ice Wine. The grapes are left on the
vine to be exposed to frosting. It concentrates the flavor and then
turned into an amazing wine. I'll take that over some hotsy-totsy thin
skin grape coddled and fawned over until it hits my glass. I like that
natural and "real" aspect.

- Dominic

Lew, I'll put up my hand as a tea agronomist amongst other things.

The subject of tea quality and stress is, as you suspect, not
straightforward. Neither is it with people some of whom thrive on it
while it destroys others - and react in different ways to any
particular type of stress. I left the safety of corporate Unilever
after 27 years because that sort of stress (lack of control over my own
decisions) gave me psoriasis. The stress of running my own, often
financially precarious, business has never affected me - in fact it is
often exhilerating. My initial Teacraft business partner couldn't
handle the financial insecurity and quit after a few years. Different
plants do well in different soils.

My observations with tea are that quality and stress is not a straight
line correlation. It's certain that too much of a good thing -
nitrogen, warmth, abundant water, will stimulate fast vigorous growth
that lacks quality - Rains teas in Assam and Darjeeling is a good
example - soft cups but high yields. Slow growth - due to cool weather
or drying winds combined with rocky soil tends to give a peak of
quality - the low yielding Uva quality season in Sri Lanka for
instance. Just to take one single variable - nitrogen fertilizer - one
certainly show a diminishing cup quality with increasing nitrogen BUT
the line will not start at zero. The response is quadratic. Reduce
nitrogen below a certain point and cup quality will again diminish.

I suspect the effect of rocky soils is the same - a degree of depletion
slows growth and improves quality - but deplete too far and it will
reduce quality.

Soil pH is possible the most obvious illustration of the effect. Tea
thrives at pH 5.0 but growth declines with increasing soil pH until
plants actually die at pH 7.0 Similarly, growth declines at reducing
pH and plants actually die at pH 3.0 Between 3 and 7 there is a
perfect quadratic response peaking at 5.0 I supect that the best pH
for cup quality is around pH 4 - below optimum for yield (pH 5) but
well above the plunge into the death zone.

The moral being that for optimum tea quality you must not spoil the
bushes with unlimited treats - deal with them firmly but not too hard -
lots think that effective child raising follows similar rules.

Nigel at Teacraft




Lewis Perin wrote:
> You've hit on a very interesting point. Probably none of us, except
> Nigel, could convincingly pose as an agronomist, but I do know that
> this isn't as simple as it seems. Sure, tea plants subjected to
> environmental stresses, e.g. poor nutrition, will yield less leaf, but
> for high quality, there are cases where we demand that the trees or
> shrubs be tortured:
>

(Nigel wrote ...)
> The moral being that for optimum tea quality you must not spoil the
> bushes with unlimited treats - deal with them firmly but not too hard -
> lots think that effective child raising follows similar rules.


Hence the phrase 'Nothing but tea' Nigel?

Im T

Oh, this is completely unknown to me. And I like (but can drink little
/ inoften) Nilgiri teas with their slight greenness and dryness alike
to Darjeelings. Can you point me somewhere to find out more, Lew?


Lewis Perin wrote:

> - Frost tea from Nilgiri, obviously;

11/11
/06

> Oh, this is completely unknown to me. And I like (but can drink little
> / inoften) Nilgiri teas with their slight greenness and dryness alike
> to Darjeelings. Can you point me somewhere to find out more, Lew?
>
>
> Lewis Perin wrote:
>
>> - Frost tea from Nilgiri, obviously;

I've never tasted the Nilgiri frost tea.
There is a Taiwan Oolong version
produced only in good years, say they.
It's very fine, having small *tough*
leaves and a concentrated taste that
I still remember, even having had it
only once and that somewhat over a
year ago.

Michael

http://www.chadotea.com/rlist.asp?reservedid=261
http://www.teasociety.org/products.asp?id=2

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Oh, this is completely unknown to me. And I like (but can drink little
> / inoften) Nilgiri teas with their slight greenness and dryness alike
> to Darjeelings. Can you point me somewhere to find out more, Lew?
>
>
> Lewis Perin wrote:
>
>> - Frost tea from Nilgiri, obviously;
>

> BTW, I drank a 2004 silver bud Pu'erh the other day and
> it was lovely, nice, gorgeous, and interesting. Don't expect it to last
> forever, but for a few years, I expect great things.

Michael,

Is the 2004 you're referring to happen to be the mini-beeng from The
Tea Gallery in NY? I ask because I've been drinking this and agree
wholeheartedly with your adjectives.

Steven

On 11/10/2006 17:19:46 " > wrote:

Michael,

> Is the 2004 you're referring to happen to be the mini-beeng from The Tea
> Gallery in NY? I ask because I've been drinking this and agree
> wholeheartedly with your adjectives.

> Steven


Yes, it is. Indeed. My string of
meaningless, unhelpful adjectives
was meant humorously, but I am
very fond of the tea.
Michael

[MarshalN]
> I use the term "mouthfeel" because it's a direct translation of the
> word "kougan". There's no way to describe that term.
>
Mouth-feel sounds ok to us, but rather confusing for the rest of the world.
How about "Texture of Taste in the Mouth"? Hmm. perhaps even more
confusing...

> For young puerh, it is pretty much the ONLY criteria that should be
> used to evaluate the tea, because almost all the flavours will change
> over the course of aging, but mouthfeel is something that will stay
> constant and will tell you more about the quality of the tea than any
> flavour you're getting from it for now. A puerh that tastes great now
> might not age into something great, and vice versa. In fact, if a
> puerh tastes too good (for example, if it reminds you of a good oolong)
> it's probably not good for aging. If it's not bitter at all or not
> astringent at all, it's probably not good for aging. If it's too
> fragrant, it's probably not good for aging.
>
> While I'm not in the "it has to taste nasty now for it to be great"
> school, it is unfortunately true that some producers now are making
> puerh that tastes great now, but at the possible price of its future.
> Some renowned Taiwanese puerh makers are guilty of this.
>
>
True, but not wholly true.
If we were to base our preference of purchase on the above criteria set, we
would be going off-course.
One has to understand how the above criteria came about, the broad spectrum
of Yunnan leaves from different locations, the differences in processing,
and then see how correct are the above assumptions.

Danny

For anybody interested, here is the definition of 'Kou Gan', or
'Mouthfeel', or 'Mouth-feel' or whatever - in chinese. According to
the China Tea Encyclopedia, the term in English is 'Tasting Sensation'
- just as inadequate...

�感 [Tasting Sensation]
茶湯ä¸*的呈味物支在å�£è…”å…§åˆºæ¿€å‘³è¦ºç´ °èƒžè€Œå½¢æˆ�的綜å�ˆæ„Ÿè¦º.
與æ��ç´*性術語組å�ˆå¾Œ, 用于å°�滋味的綜å�ˆè©•å®š, 如:
�感良好.

Danny

Danny wrote:
> For anybody interested, here is the definition of 'Kou Gan', or
> 'Mouthfeel', or 'Mouth-feel' or whatever - in chinese. According to
> the China Tea Encyclopedia, the term in English is 'Tasting Sensation'
> - just as inadequate...
>
> �感 [Tasting Sensation]
> 茶湯ä¸*的呈味物支在å�£è…”å…§åˆºæ¿€å‘³è¦ºç´ °èƒžè€Œå½¢æˆ�的綜å�ˆæ„Ÿè¦º.
> 與æ��ç´*性術語組å�ˆå¾Œ, 用于å°�滋味的綜å�ˆè©•å®š, 如:
> �感良好.
>
> Danny

Danny, the encyclopedia you mentioned. Is it in Chinese? What is the
name of that book in Chinese? I am interested in acquiring such handy
book. Thanks!

Hee

Yeah Danny, are you referring to the

Cha Ye Da Ci Dian, by (I think) Chen Zong Mao? That is the book that
Livio put me on to and I finally picked it up last year. It's in
chinese only, excepting some odd words up in English, but you'd need
modern chinese characters for it to be any use to you. If it's this
one, its big and costs about 380 yuan.

Immo T


According to
> > the China Tea Encyclopedia, the term in English is 'Tasting Sensation'

> Danny, the encyclopedia you mentioned. Is it in Chinese? What is the
> name of that book in Chinese? I am interested in acquiring such handy
> book. Thanks!
>
> Hee

Bingo!

That's the one.

Not many bookstores carry it, so grab it while you can...

:")

Danny


> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Yeah Danny, are you referring to the
>
> Cha Ye Da Ci Dian, by (I think) Chen Zong Mao? That is the book that
> Livio put me on to and I finally picked it up last year. It's in
> chinese only, excepting some odd words up in English, but you'd need
> modern chinese characters for it to be any use to you. If it's this
> one, its big and costs about 380 yuan.
>
> Immo T
>
>
> According to
>> > the China Tea Encyclopedia, the term in English is 'Tasting Sensation'
>
>> Danny, the encyclopedia you mentioned. Is it in Chinese? What is the
>> name of that book in Chinese? I am interested in acquiring such handy
>> book. Thanks!
>>
>> Hee
>

In that case it's not exactly 'handy' , Hee, but I'm pleased I finally
got a copy (presently stored away and not to hand, but I'll be able to
look at it next week) -

it's not just tea, but an encyclopaedia of all things tea - like
agricultural equipment!
Tho' it's huge and the several pages on chinese tea are most
interesting -

if you have difficulty finding it (um ie in China I mean) I could point
you to where I bought it (near Qianmen, Beijing) and possible other
stockists - if you're after tracking down an import copy (expensive I
would presume) let me know and I'll have a look for any ISBN etc stuff
on it.

Cheers,

MIT


samarkand wrote:
> Bingo!
> That's the one.
> Not many bookstores carry it, so grab it while you can...

> >> Danny, the encyclopedia you mentioned. Is it in Chinese? What is the
> >> name of that book in Chinese? I am interested in acquiring such handy
> >> book. Thanks!

Danica wrote:
> Roy Fong at ITC is a stickler for how a tea feels in the mouth; he has
> at times espoused a technique involving sipping the tea, holding it in
> the front of the mouth and using the tongue to determine how thick or
> silky the tea tastes before swallowing it. Since I became aware of this
> I've really changed how I judge puerh teas. The really good ones
> sometimes have a very subtle taste but great mouthfeel, although one
> would hope they would have both.
>
> I'm really digging YSLLCs '97 Xia Guan cooked cake right now, btw.
>

I use the term "mouthfeel" because it's a direct translation of the
word "kougan". There's no way to describe that term.

For young puerh, it is pretty much the ONLY criteria that should be
used to evaluate the tea, because almost all the flavours will change
over the course of aging, but mouthfeel is something that will stay
constant and will tell you more about the quality of the tea than any
flavour you're getting from it for now. A puerh that tastes great now
might not age into something great, and vice versa. In fact, if a
puerh tastes too good (for example, if it reminds you of a good oolong)
it's probably not good for aging. If it's not bitter at all or not
astringent at all, it's probably not good for aging. If it's too
fragrant, it's probably not good for aging.

While I'm not in the "it has to taste nasty now for it to be great"
school, it is unfortunately true that some producers now are making
puerh that tastes great now, but at the possible price of its future.
Some renowned Taiwanese puerh makers are guilty of this.

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN