OK - it was certainly not perfect. In fact, there is LOTS of room for
improvement. But our first loaf came out of the oven today. Miracle of
miracles - it looked great - and tasted great!

Used our recently activated "Original San Francisco" from SDI - for all
those who posted that this culture is not sour --- well, maybe we got a
different strain, because it is astoundingly sour. Without even
extending the culture proofing time.

Need to do a better job with the rising time and/or the flour - the
inside of the loaf didn't rise completely, leaving a small gap between
the top crust and the interior of the loaf. And the loaf was not as
'risen' as I might have wanted. I suspect it rose and fell again due to
too long a rise time. Need to keep a closer eye on it.

Thanks to all who helped with advice - we're thrilled to have the
starter in the fridge, and look forward to a fresh loaf or two every
week.

Hello Ric & all;

Well, I'm delighted that you got some pretty good results...and I'm
envious that it came out SOUR!

My version of the SDI culture is as bland as a pancake. So, how
about sharing your recipe and giving me a bit of info about your
timing, flour selection, etc...

TIA,
Dusty


"Ric" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> OK - it was certainly not perfect. In fact, there is LOTS of room
> for
> improvement. But our first loaf came out of the oven today.
> Miracle of
> miracles - it looked great - and tasted great!
>
> Used our recently activated "Original San Francisco" from SDI -
> for all
> those who posted that this culture is not sour --- well, maybe we
> got a
> different strain, because it is astoundingly sour. Without even
> extending the culture proofing time.
>
> Need to do a better job with the rising time and/or the flour -
> the
> inside of the loaf didn't rise completely, leaving a small gap
> between
> the top crust and the interior of the loaf. And the loaf was not
> as
> 'risen' as I might have wanted. I suspect it rose and fell again
> due to
> too long a rise time. Need to keep a closer eye on it.
>
> Thanks to all who helped with advice - we're thrilled to have the
> starter in the fridge, and look forward to a fresh loaf or two
> every
> week.
>

"Ric" > wrote:

"Need to do a better job with the rising time and/or the flour - the
inside of the loaf didn't rise completely, leaving a small gap between
the top crust and the interior of the loaf. And the loaf was not as
'risen' as I might have wanted. I suspect it rose and fell again due to
too long a rise time. Need to keep a closer eye on it."

Yes, fill us in on the details of what you did to get this loaf. The
problems you describe are all things that can be fixed, believe me I know,
the good people here have helped me through them all, but more info is
needed, your recipe would be nice, and thing like how much preferment was
used in the final dough mix, what were your proof times, did you use stretch
and folds, what type of rising method (some type of rising bowl, or free
form), was this baked in a bread pan or "hearth type" bread.

" Thanks to all who helped with advice - we're thrilled to have the
starter in the fridge, and look forward to a fresh loaf or two every
week."

Exciting isnt it? Hope you can post pictures.

hutchndi

Hutch... let your mind wander back to those first loaves. Remember
those records of preferments and proof times? No? I don't remember mine
either <g>.

Ric... you need to have a couple of things for us to help you. You need
a gram scale to measure the the bread's water and flour accurately. And
you need an oven rack thermometer that measures the real oven
temperature at the baking position. These are not expensive things.
Maybe $25 or $30 in total. They will save you a lot of supposition and
speculation. And get you to excellent bread more quickly than you might
believe. There are friendly bakers here to guide you and they can...
rather precisely... but they need accurate information.

Will

"Will" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hutch... let your mind wander back to those first loaves. Remember
> those records of preferments and proof times? No? I don't remember mine
> either <g>.
>

Nope


> Ric... you need to have a couple of things for us to help you. You need
> a gram scale to measure the the bread's water and flour accurately. And
> you need an oven rack thermometer that measures the real oven
> temperature at the baking position. These are not expensive things.
> Maybe $25 or $30 in total. They will save you a lot of supposition and
> speculation. And get you to excellent bread more quickly than you might
> believe. There are friendly bakers here to guide you and they can...
> rather precisely... but they need accurate information.
>
> Will
>

YES. Emphatical agreement.

And one thing I have gotten better at but cant perfect, keeping the snarts
to a minimum. My wife is always getting on me about flour snarts. Seems no
matter how well clean up after working with starter and dough, I always miss
a tenacious little glob somewhere, the faucet handle, the sink rim, dish
towel, somewhere. Nasty little boogers.

hutchndi

"Will" > wrote in message oups.com...

> Ric... you need to have a couple of things for us to help you. You need
> a gram scale to measure the bread's water and flour accurately.

Ounces are pretty crude, I guess. Fluid ounces are a total myth: a
fluid ounce of water can weigh most anything, and so with a milliliter
or a cubic centimeter or whatever. So spend your money carefully,
sucker.

> And you need an oven rack thermometer that measures the real oven
> temperature at the baking position.

It's like with rectal and oral. What can a gauge on top of the stove
know about the actual situation beneath?

> There are friendly bakers here to guide you and they can...
> rather precisely... but they need accurate information.

The really friendly ones will get you all wound up with an incredible
menage of details and futzy exhortations.

I, on the other hand, will tell you the truth.

1. It is useful to determine the weight of the flour you measure with a
cup.

2. A cup of water amounts to 8 fluid ounces and, at room temperature,
weighs pretty close to 8 ounces (or 30 grammes, if you are fancy).

3. The practical temperature of the oven can be established by its
effect on the surface of the dough you bake there. (But a cheap
oven thermometer will tell you if the controller is really out of whack.)

4. If you volumetrically measure fluids precisely, the weight of the
final dough can tell you the bakers' per-cent hydration, without
you make any other weighings. Well, if you are able and willing
to do a bit of arithmetic. That's a useful thing to know. Me, I
read it off a table and write it down for each batch. Soon I
have a good idea what dough at a particular hydration level
feels like and how it behaves in the mixer.

But, since I'm old, I forget pretty quick. So I keep observing and
writing down.

--
Dicky

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message news:HOLDf.13552$oo1.13084@trnddc02...

> A cup of water amounts to 8 fluid ounces and, at room temperature,
> weighs pretty close to 8 ounces (or 30 grammes, if you are fancy).

Oops! 30 grammes per ounce, close enough. But arguable. Probably
a whole thread there!

-d.

"Dick Adams" > wrote

> And you need an oven rack thermometer that measures the real oven
> temperature at the baking position.

It's like with rectal and oral. What can a gauge on top of the stove
know about the actual situation beneath?

Besides the major discrepancies I recently found in my cup weights, I can
definately vouch for the oven temp thermometer. My oven is really close to
the setting temps, until I use an oven stone, at which time my oven gets
30 -35 degrees hotter then the set temp, so adjustments are needed.

Is someone putting an oven thermometer on top of the stove? I wonder where
they put the rectal thermometer...

<g>

hutchndi

Why bother with all that Pillsbury back-of-the flour-sack blather
written for the Stepford wives? It's not like gram scales are precious
lab equipment these days. They are $15 or $20 and available at the
hardware store or big box cattle corral. I have yet to see a oven
register right at the dial. Not the cheap-o Kenmore I'm using now or
the monster Dynasty I installed two houses ago. $5 gets you right on
the rack.

Goodness, Dick, it's not like I recommended ye olde 2 ton marble slab
and French grammar course <g>.

I am also a newbie to sourdough. I add flour by feel after adding the
amount called for in the recipe, instead of sticking to a strict
recipe, but I do add the amount of water per recipe. I do this because
I trust my feel more than the recipes because I have experienced
failures by being too strict wtih the recipe.

Maybe it is just me. I have made regular yeast bread with success for
many years and realize I am learning a very different process for which
I have had to re-adjust my thinking. I just have a hard time relating
to all you guys talking about weighing the flour and water etc. Does
it have to be such an exact science?

I made a couple of loaves last night which were formed french/no bread
pan. I used KA bread flour and some fresh ground WW flour. They rose
well and had a good crumb (does that mean the air bubbles?, cause that
is what I meant)..but still they are not sour at all. I used SDI's SF
sourdough.

I am also not sure when the best time to slit the dough is to get the
look I want. I tried slitting at the start of the last rise. Next time
I will try at the end since I didn't like the results at the beginnin.
How deep do you make the slits? My slits didn't stop a tear on the
sides.

How many rises did you do after activating the starter?

Mine was activated overnight and then I didn't bake it until that
night. Once you add all the flour and salt did you form the loaves or
let it rise then stretch and fold and let it rise again? Should I have
tried to go overnight a second time? Would that work without needing
to add more flour? Would it rise again in the morning after stretching
and folding.
I baked it at 450 from a cold start for 40 mins. It probably could
have been taken out a couple of minutes sooner. (electric oven
convection)

I may try making my own starter with mostly rye. Will that produce a
more sour bread?

Sorry for so many newbie questions.

Trix wrote:
> I just have a hard time relating
> to all you guys talking about weighing the flour and water etc. Does
> it have to be such an exact science?

Let me ask a question.... when you went to the grocery store checkout,
did you eyeball that pile of bills and coins you gave the cashier? Or
did you count it?

Bread is like money... a little discipline goes a very long way <g>.

Will

On 1 Feb 2006 10:53:25 -0800, "Will" > wrote:

>
>Trix wrote:
>> I just have a hard time relating
>> to all you guys talking about weighing the flour and water etc. Does
>> it have to be such an exact science?
>
>Let me ask a question.... when you went to the grocery store checkout,
>did you eyeball that pile of bills and coins you gave the cashier? Or
>did you count it?
>
>Bread is like money... a little discipline goes a very long way <g>.
>
>Will


Big diff here....Sometimes measurements are needed, sometimes not. I
have been at this awhile and I know the rules. I have a scale. I am
capable of calculating hydration, but I also get off on making my
breads (with goals in mind) and doing them from sight & feel. I do not
own a bakery so I have nothing pressuring me to produce the same exact
results every time, but I sure do have fun and the breads don't
exactly get thumbs-down at the family table.

I baked 8 loaves over the weekend, 3 different types....I used no
measurements of any kind for any of them.

http://i1.tinypic.com/mtum3l.jpg


http://i1.tinypic.com/mtutnc.jpg


http://i1.tinypic.com/mtvw2a.jpg



This is what I posted in rec.food.cooking about them...remember, that
is not a bread group...I'd have worded some things differently her:

************************************************** *********
The bread making actually began Friday night...I have a lot of
sourdough cultures that I nurture and then sometimes neglect. I have
to "refresh" them to keep them alive, alive-o and that is what I did
last week. By Friday night, they were so active, they were popping
their Rubbermaid lids & shooting them across the room.

I mixed up 3 separate batches to being the breads...One was based on a
rye-based starter, one was based a starter that I got from a artisan
bakery and one was a starter from god-only-know-where. I had planned 3
separate types of breads...and so I needed 3 different bases for them.
Each starter was mixed with flours of varying kinds and water, and
left to ferment overnight.

Saturday morning, after errands, I took the pre-ferments and mixed
doughs for:


1)A lean-dough multi-grain bread, with regular flour, dark rye,
rolled oats, spelt flour and coarse corn meal, water and salt.


2) A lean dough, artisan type sourdough that had regular flour and
some semolina for a bit of color & crunch, and some water and salt


3)A rich dough that had flour, rolled oats, some butter, sour cream,
milk and honey, and that was to be the basis for cinnamon-raisin
bread..

All three doughs were mixed up, kneaded, then put in the fridge about
noon on Saturday.
************************************************** *****************


I removed the doughs from the fridge Sunday morning, proceeded to
shape & proof them...the cin-raisin got rolled out and covered in
brown sugar, cinnamon & raisins before being rolled into loaves. The
rest it is obvious what I did...except that one loaf was too long for
the oven....

Many thanks to all who replied and offered the benefit of their
experience. Much appreciated. There seem to be two 'threads' to this
interesting conversation;

1. Exact weights and measures. I tend towards the same approach that
Trix uses when I bake - I use the recipe to a point, but judge the
final dough by feel more than recipe. But I shall bake another loaf in
the next couple days - keeping accurate notes, and report on my success
- or lack thereof. As a winemaker, I'm accustomed to such protocols.
2. 'Sourness' of the SDI "Original San Francisco'. As mentioned in my
intial post, the bread from the other day was exceptionally sour. To
answer the couple questions in this regard; I activated it, 'fed it'
twice more - then used it. The loaf was risen only once (and rose much
more than I expected - I was thrilled!).

This next loaf (maybe two - delicious stuff!) I will use a more strict
protocol relative to type of flour, weights and measures, timing, etc,
and give a report. I hope it is as delicious as the first!

Here is a link to what is left of the loaf I made last night. Thanks to
the Baron for the Tinypic.com link...I haven't used it before so I hope
it works..

http://i1.tinypic.com/n1qq6p.jpg

Ric, maybe you can post a photo of your bread next time.

How long did you let it rise (proof) after you fed it 2 more times?

I meant how long for each feed?

OK - that pic just makes me JEALOUS ! ;-)

"Ric" > wrote in message
ups.com...
....
> 2. 'Sourness' of the SDI "Original San Francisco'. As mentioned in
> my
> intial post, the bread from the other day was exceptionally sour.
> To
> answer the couple questions in this regard; I activated it, 'fed
> it'
> twice more - then used it. The loaf was risen only once (and rose
> much
> more than I expected - I was thrilled!).
At the risk of becoming a pest, could you embellish on that a bit?
I've been making great SD for some time now. The only thing I can't
seem to "get" is the sour. I usually get great rises and baking
performance, and I get the odd hint of sour at times. But I want
Sour with a capital 'S' that reaches out and grabs me by the throat.
I know that might be too much...but then I can work at throttling it
back...(:-o)!

There aren't that many variables that can effect the sourness. I'd
say: starter, flour, and methods (temps, timing & such). I'd really
like to find out just what you do and compare it to what I do...and
see if I can figure out my "missing link"...

So if you could post the recipe and instructions you used to get
that sour, I'd be most grateful.

Actually, that goes for any of the readership. If someone's got a
recipe that consistently gives 'em "sour" in relatively plain,
white, San Francisco style loaf, I'd really, Really, REALLY like to
get my hands on it...

I've got 4-different starters, most from folks reading here, and
have tried 'em all. None of 'em give me what I seek. So, as I've
said before, I suspect it's (1) my starter, (2) my methods, or (3)
my flour. I've tried altering each of those in turn, and have made
the same, very consistent and delightful to eat but bland (not sour)
bread. I guess I should be happy (that they come out as well as
they do), BUT I WANT MORE SOUR!

> This next loaf (maybe two - delicious stuff!) I will use a more
> strict
> protocol relative to type of flour, weights and measures, timing,
> etc,
> and give a report. I hope it is as delicious as the first!
I'd love to hear about your experiments as well. Please do post
'em...


TIA,
Dusty
San Jose

>

Dusty Bleher" > wrote in message
...>
> Actually, that goes for any of the readership. If someone's got a
> recipe that consistently gives 'em "sour" in relatively plain,
> white, San Francisco style loaf, I'd really, Really, REALLY like to
> get my hands on it...
>
> I've got 4-different starters, most from folks reading here, and
> have tried 'em all. None of 'em give me what I seek. So, as I've
> said before, I suspect it's (1) my starter, (2) my methods, or (3)
> my flour. I've tried altering each of those in turn, and have made
> the same, very consistent and delightful to eat but bland (not sour)
> bread. I guess I should be happy (that they come out as well as
> they do), BUT I WANT MORE SOUR!
>
> > This next loaf (maybe two - delicious stuff!) I will use a more
> > strict
> > protocol relative to type of flour, weights and measures, timing,
> > etc,
> > and give a report. I hope it is as delicious as the first!
> I'd love to hear about your experiments as well. Please do post
> 'em...
>
>
> TIA,
> Dusty
> San Jose

ok dusty, here is what i got so far. i have also been working on this
aspect of my sd, here is my research:
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrow...der_id=1590994

well, if that didn't make too much sense, here is a little more. first
these posts pointed me in the right direction:

Hi Dan,

I would suggest only one modification to the above...

You can "get" any taste you might want using any method you
might choose, but to "repeat" the ability to produce that
taste, the ability to control the variables is important.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

Dan,

I think the answer to your question is yes. There seems to be a
continuum in starter results from cool, high hydration, mixtures... to
warm, low hydration, ones: cool and thin, favor yeasts, warm and thick
favor LB's. Of course there are exceptions and variants but I think the
warm/thick, cool/thin paradigm, which is very simplistic, holds.

I think spending time reading the Gaenzle and Wing posts on Samartha's
site is a good idea. It takes a while, and several readings, to absorb
what is presented. It's not exciting reading, but if you really,
seriously, parse what is presented you will learn what you need to
know. There are a lot of variables: size of inoculation, flour ash,
ions, etc... Cereal chemistry is complex and none of us master it. But
a little knowledge generates huge benefits.

I am walking the same road you are. My mileage indicates that fresh,
vigorous starters are essential. That warm starter builds make complex
flavors. That retards are absolutely necessary for gluten build and
crumb structure, and that warm proofs finish what those warm builds
initiate. I like the complexity, frankly, We are following a real
Tradition. There is enough mystery and science for all.

Back to your starter question... I think that the origin of the starter
is orders of magnitude less important than how it is maintained and
amplified for dough. I have a small stable of starters that I have
built or acquired over the years.

Every one of them can present as either sour or mild.

Will

another poster - sorry can't find the post- said he/she kept thier starter
at room temp, refreshing each day. this keeps the starter fresh and
smelling wonderful. it took about three daily feedings of 50g water and 40g
flour, but the results were amazing. bubbly and sweet , almost champagne?
aroma.

here are the things that i have found directly affect sourness: hydration,
smaller innoculation of starter to flour (as a percentage), longer fermnets,
warmer ferments and final rising, possibly adding retard cycle, and if you
really want sour - add some rye.

here are the two recipes i have worked with, that did get me the sour i
wanted. this is still a work in progress.

the recipe is here http://samartha.net/SD/recipes/SF-01.html
here are my adjustments:

step 1- 70g starter/ 140g apf / 73g water / mix and store at 80º for 8 hr
(i use a heating blanket covered with bowl
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrow...der_id=1584181 )

step 2- use 200g starter from above / add 390g apf / 234g water / 10g salt
(add later)

rough mix dough from step 2- allow to sit 30 min at 80º

take dough and mix in ka mixer for 4 min speed 2- scrape down and add 10g
salt- knead 1 min speed 2

form according to link and proof at 85º for 6 hrs. slash and bake 390º for
45 min with steam.

timing of loaf: start 8am, loaf out at 10pm; or start at 12 midnight, loaf
finished at 3pm next day.

Dan's Very Sour Sourdough

Step 1- 32g starter / 100 g water / 146g AP flour

mix and cover and store 12 hours at 80º

Step 2- 75g water / 146g Dark rye flour (or even pumpernickel)

mix and cover and store 10 hours at 80º

Step 3- 149g water / 249g AP flour / 10g salt (later)

machine mix ingredients speed 2 (KA mixer) for 4 min, scrape down and add
10g kosher salt, mix 1 min longer speed 2.

Oil bowl and cover with plastic and put in refer for 12-36 hrs. Remove and
allow to thaw for 2hrs at 80º. Stretch and fold 30 min apart 2-4 time. Final
rise and bake with steam at 450º for 25 min and 400º for 20-30 min, internal
temp 190-200º.

Variation:

add all ingredients in step 3 and rough mix until all flour is moist. Cover
and store 45 min at 80º. Do 4-6 stretch and folds 30 min apart. Final rise
and bake with steam at 450º for 25 min and 400º for 20-30 min, internal temp
190-200º.



as i said before, i am still running my tests, but i believe i am getting
close to my mecca of real sf sd.



dan w

"dan w" > wrote in message
...
>
> the recipe is here http://samartha.net/SD/recipes/SF-01.html
> here are my adjustments:
>
> step 1- 70g starter/ 140g apf / 73g water / mix and store at 80º for 8 hr
> (i use a heating blanket covered with bowl
> http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrow...der_id=1584181 )
>
> step 2- use 200g starter from above / add 390g apf / 234g water / 10g salt
> (add later)
>
> rough mix dough from step 2- allow to sit 30 min at 80º
>
> take dough and mix in ka mixer for 4 min speed 2- scrape down and add 10g
> salt- knead 1 min speed 2
>
> form according to link and proof at 85º for 6 hrs. slash and bake 390º
for
> 45 min with steam.
>
> timing of loaf: start 8am, loaf out at 10pm; or start at 12 midnight,
loaf
> finished at 3pm next day.
>
here are the pics:
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrow...der_id=1591749

the crust and crumb are just like sf sd, however the elusive taste, well not
so close. has a mild sour, a hint of what i am looking for. i will make a
few adjustments, maybe add 10% rye to step 2. will let you know how it
works. i am also going to do dickys new recipe tonight- i am going to
convert it to gram weight and send it to you dick! the recipe, i mean.

dan w

"Ric" > wrote
>
> Need to do a better job with the rising time and/or the flour - the
> inside of the loaf didn't rise completely, leaving a small gap between
> the top crust and the interior of the loaf. And the loaf was not as
> 'risen' as I might have wanted. I suspect it rose and fell again due to
> too long a rise time. Need to keep a closer eye on it.
>


Its hard to get that right, Sometimes if I make small changes in percentage
of whole wheat for instance, it changes much I should let it final proof
for. These loaves I added abot 20% whole wheat and did everything else
exactly the same as when I add only 10% whole wheat (which I had pretty well
gotten proofed right by now). When I let them rise for the alloted time and
got the rise (thought) I wanted, it was over proofed a bit, and you can see
it in the two loaves. The one I slashed sort of fell, and the un-slashed one
still got good oven spring, but the crumb holes were very large just under
the top crust, (almost fly-away).

http://members.cox.net/hutchndi/DSCN0062.JPG

hutchndi

Now those look yummy !!!!!!! :-)


>it in the two loaves. The one I slashed sort of fell, and the un-slashed one
>still got good oven spring, but the crumb holes were very large just under
>the top crust, (almost fly-away).
>
>http://members.cox.net/hutchndi/DSCN0062.JPG
>
>hutchndi
>