Dusty Bleher" > wrote in message
...>
> Actually, that goes for any of the readership. If someone's got a
> recipe that consistently gives 'em "sour" in relatively plain,
> white, San Francisco style loaf, I'd really, Really, REALLY like to
> get my hands on it...
>
> I've got 4-different starters, most from folks reading here, and
> have tried 'em all. None of 'em give me what I seek. So, as I've
> said before, I suspect it's (1) my starter, (2) my methods, or (3)
> my flour. I've tried altering each of those in turn, and have made
> the same, very consistent and delightful to eat but bland (not sour)
> bread. I guess I should be happy (that they come out as well as
> they do), BUT I WANT MORE SOUR!
>
> > This next loaf (maybe two - delicious stuff!) I will use a more
> > strict
> > protocol relative to type of flour, weights and measures, timing,
> > etc,
> > and give a report. I hope it is as delicious as the first!
> I'd love to hear about your experiments as well. Please do post
> 'em...
>
>
> TIA,
> Dusty
> San Jose
ok dusty, here is what i got so far. i have also been working on this
aspect of my sd, here is my research:
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrow...der_id=1590994
well, if that didn't make too much sense, here is a little more. first
these posts pointed me in the right direction:
Hi Dan,
I would suggest only one modification to the above...
You can "get" any taste you might want using any method you
might choose, but to "repeat" the ability to produce that
taste, the ability to control the variables is important.
All the best,
--
Kenneth
Dan,
I think the answer to your question is yes. There seems to be a
continuum in starter results from cool, high hydration, mixtures... to
warm, low hydration, ones: cool and thin, favor yeasts, warm and thick
favor LB's. Of course there are exceptions and variants but I think the
warm/thick, cool/thin paradigm, which is very simplistic, holds.
I think spending time reading the Gaenzle and Wing posts on Samartha's
site is a good idea. It takes a while, and several readings, to absorb
what is presented. It's not exciting reading, but if you really,
seriously, parse what is presented you will learn what you need to
know. There are a lot of variables: size of inoculation, flour ash,
ions, etc... Cereal chemistry is complex and none of us master it. But
a little knowledge generates huge benefits.
I am walking the same road you are. My mileage indicates that fresh,
vigorous starters are essential. That warm starter builds make complex
flavors. That retards are absolutely necessary for gluten build and
crumb structure, and that warm proofs finish what those warm builds
initiate. I like the complexity, frankly, We are following a real
Tradition. There is enough mystery and science for all.
Back to your starter question... I think that the origin of the starter
is orders of magnitude less important than how it is maintained and
amplified for dough. I have a small stable of starters that I have
built or acquired over the years.
Every one of them can present as either sour or mild.
Will
another poster - sorry can't find the post- said he/she kept thier starter
at room temp, refreshing each day. this keeps the starter fresh and
smelling wonderful. it took about three daily feedings of 50g water and 40g
flour, but the results were amazing. bubbly and sweet , almost champagne?
aroma.
here are the things that i have found directly affect sourness: hydration,
smaller innoculation of starter to flour (as a percentage), longer fermnets,
warmer ferments and final rising, possibly adding retard cycle, and if you
really want sour - add some rye.
here are the two recipes i have worked with, that did get me the sour i
wanted. this is still a work in progress.
the recipe is here
http://samartha.net/SD/recipes/SF-01.html
here are my adjustments:
step 1- 70g starter/ 140g apf / 73g water / mix and store at 80º for 8 hr
(i use a heating blanket covered with bowl
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrow...der_id=1584181 )
step 2- use 200g starter from above / add 390g apf / 234g water / 10g salt
(add later)
rough mix dough from step 2- allow to sit 30 min at 80º
take dough and mix in ka mixer for 4 min speed 2- scrape down and add 10g
salt- knead 1 min speed 2
form according to link and proof at 85º for 6 hrs. slash and bake 390º for
45 min with steam.
timing of loaf: start 8am, loaf out at 10pm; or start at 12 midnight, loaf
finished at 3pm next day.
Dan's Very Sour Sourdough
Step 1- 32g starter / 100 g water / 146g AP flour
mix and cover and store 12 hours at 80º
Step 2- 75g water / 146g Dark rye flour (or even pumpernickel)
mix and cover and store 10 hours at 80º
Step 3- 149g water / 249g AP flour / 10g salt (later)
machine mix ingredients speed 2 (KA mixer) for 4 min, scrape down and add
10g kosher salt, mix 1 min longer speed 2.
Oil bowl and cover with plastic and put in refer for 12-36 hrs. Remove and
allow to thaw for 2hrs at 80º. Stretch and fold 30 min apart 2-4 time. Final
rise and bake with steam at 450º for 25 min and 400º for 20-30 min, internal
temp 190-200º.
Variation:
add all ingredients in step 3 and rough mix until all flour is moist. Cover
and store 45 min at 80º. Do 4-6 stretch and folds 30 min apart. Final rise
and bake with steam at 450º for 25 min and 400º for 20-30 min, internal temp
190-200º.
as i said before, i am still running my tests, but i believe i am getting
close to my mecca of real sf sd.
dan w