Just got two of these wicker coiled baskets (1.5 lb size, no
instructions included) for a birthday present, they came from he

http://www.tmbbaking.com/baskets.shtml

Havent tryed them yet, but I found in the archives info about rice
flour to make them release easily. Some websites suggest brushing out
the coils after use, others say letting flour build up and eventually
you wont have to flour it. I even found one that says to first baptise
it with Joy caking grease. Wont these things get moldy? Can anybody
speak from experience?

hutchndi

On 6 Dec 2005 08:03:05 -0800, "hutchndi" >
wrote:

> Just got two of these wicker coiled baskets (1.5 lb size, no
>instructions included) for a birthday present, they came from he
>
>http://www.tmbbaking.com/baskets.shtml
>
>Havent tryed them yet, but I found in the archives info about rice
>flour to make them release easily. Some websites suggest brushing out
>the coils after use, others say letting flour build up and eventually
>you wont have to flour it. I even found one that says to first baptise
>it with Joy caking grease. Wont these things get moldy? Can anybody
>speak from experience?
>
>hutchndi

Howdy,

You might consider the linen liner that is on the same page
on the lower right.

I have used linen lined wicker for many years with no
problems. I do sometimes dust 'em with rice flour, and the
stuff is like Teflon.

If you keep them dry, there should be no hassles.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"hutchndi" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Just got two of these wicker coiled baskets (1.5 lb size, no
> instructions included) for a birthday present, they came from he
>
> http://www.tmbbaking.com/baskets.shtml
>
> Havent tryed them yet, but I found in the archives info about rice
> flour to make them release easily. Some websites suggest brushing out
> the coils after use, others say letting flour build up and eventually
> you wont have to flour it. I even found one that says to first baptise
> it with Joy caking grease. Wont these things get moldy? Can anybody
> speak from experience?
>

I have had those for several years -- I started using regular flour and then
switched to rice flour. After I remove the loaf, I let them air dry for a
couple of hours and then turn them upside down over the sink and bang them
on the bottom to get any loose flour out. Store them in *not* hermetically
sealed plastic bags on top of the fridge. Never had the slightest problem
with them.

I do the same thing with the linen couches that I use for free form loaves.
Never had any problems with them either.

Ellen

Ok, tryed them out, the bread looks great, nice rings, and the boules
came out without sticking at all. I have never been that crazy about
the flour taste on the crust though (I just used regular AP flour to
dust my rising bowls). Does rice flour have a flavor difference when
used in this way?

hutchndi

On 9 Dec 2005 09:57:38 -0800, "hutchndi" >
wrote:

>I have never been that crazy about
>the flour taste on the crust

Howdy,

You can easily brush it off...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Well I used my banneton/brotform whatever you call them, used Joans
rcipe from Carls pages.

http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/jo...n_details.html

She apparently doesnt do any forming worth mentioning before placing
the dough in the banneton, so thats what I did. I know I probably could
have let it rise another inch to the top as she does, but it was
getting late...

Anyways I ended up with some serios flyaway crust at the top. Should
that recipe be modified?

hutchndi

On 19 Dec 2005 11:13:08 -0800, "hutchndi" >
wrote:

>
>
>
>Well I used my banneton/brotform whatever you call them, used Joans
>rcipe from Carls pages.
>
>http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/jo...n_details.html
>
>She apparently doesnt do any forming worth mentioning before placing
>the dough in the banneton, so thats what I did. I know I probably could
>have let it rise another inch to the top as she does, but it was
>getting late...
>
>Anyways I ended up with some serios flyaway crust at the top. Should
>that recipe be modified?
>
>hutchndi

Howdy,

"Banneton" is the French tradition, and is usually made of
wicker and linen. "Brotform" is the Germanic tradition and
is usually wood.

The crust problem may be due to an insufficient rise before
the bake.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

> The crust problem may be due to an insufficient rise before
> the bake.

Maybe. But I get suspicious when I read...

> >She apparently doesnt do any forming worth mentioning before placing
> >the dough in the banneton, so thats what I did.

That shortcut has never worked well for me either.

Will

On 19 Dec 2005 12:20:34 -0800, "Will"
> wrote:

>
>Kenneth wrote:
>
>> The crust problem may be due to an insufficient rise before
>> the bake.
>
>Maybe. But I get suspicious when I read...
>
>> >She apparently doesnt do any forming worth mentioning before placing
>> >the dough in the banneton, so thats what I did.
>
>That shortcut has never worked well for me either.
>
>Will

Hi Will,

I agree with you... I had zoned that part of the post out.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

I was leary of this myself, but wanted to (mostly) try to follow the
directions for once. I will go back to preparing my loaves a bit more
before doing the brotform rise.


"Will" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Kenneth wrote:
>
> > The crust problem may be due to an insufficient rise before
> > the bake.
>
> Maybe. But I get suspicious when I read...
>
> > >She apparently doesnt do any forming worth mentioning before placing
> > >the dough in the banneton, so thats what I did.
>
> That shortcut has never worked well for me either.
>
> Will
>

again. I tryed the rising bowls again, taking care to shape
and form my boules before placing them in the bowl (the ones that were in my
dough cam). They appeared to come out better, the crust was at least
attached this time, which is why I originally felt them and thought the
problem was solved. But as I cut through the first loaf, I am finding that
the top crust is elevated above the main body of the bread, attached by a
1/2 inch webwork of stretched looking enlarged holes.

I have not found any rice flour locally yet, so I am dusting my bowls with
AP flour for now, and they still cling to the risen dough a bit, the boules
hanging a few moments before dropping onto my parchment. I am wondering if
this hanging is stretching my dough inside and causing the defect.

The bread itself is great tasting, no oil or honey or anything this time. I
am surprised at what a single long rise, as opposed to my earlier sponge
method, can accomplish. Using a cup of starter for each boule, my rising
bowl time was about 15 hours, resulting in loaves that were proofed enough
so that they swelled a bit in the oven but did not require slashing. Quite
happy with the flavor, crust and crumb except for the defect. Does anybody
else think that the bowl hangup might be the cause?

hutchndi

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 13:11:04 -0500, "hutchndi"
> wrote:

>I have not found any rice flour locally yet, so I am dusting my bowls with
>AP flour for now, and they still cling to the risen dough a bit, the boules
>hanging a few moments before dropping onto my parchment. I am wondering if
>this hanging is stretching my dough inside and causing the defect.

Howdy,

I doubt that's the problem. My suspicion, as I mentioned
earlier in the thread, is that the dough is not sufficiently
fermented.

But, there is something else I will mention:

If the risen dough has to "drop" onto the parchment, you are
using a bowl that is too large (or, said another way, you
are using a recipe that is too small.)

There should be enough dough so that when ready to bake, the
bowl (or basket etc.) is full, and the dough is crowned up
above the container's edge in the center.

With that amount of dough, it is possible to "roll" it out
of the bowl onto the peel (or parchment paper) without it
"dropping."

That can be a real advantage if you go in the direction of
the fuller final fermentation I suggest because in that
condition, the dough is rather fragile. If it "drops" it is
very likely to deflate.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
>
> If the risen dough has to "drop" onto the parchment, you are
> using a bowl that is too large (or, said another way, you
> are using a recipe that is too small.)
>
> There should be enough dough so that when ready to bake, the
> bowl (or basket etc.) is full, and the dough is crowned up
> above the container's edge in the center.
>
> With that amount of dough, it is possible to "roll" it out
> of the bowl onto the peel (or parchment paper) without it
> "dropping."
>
> That can be a real advantage if you go in the direction of
> the fuller final fermentation I suggest because in that
> condition, the dough is rather fragile. If it "drops" it is
> very likely to deflate.


That was a communication error on my part. The dough was fully risen to
crowning over the bowl, and inverted it is touching the parchment . The
"drop" is when I am carefully lifting off the bowl while the dough is still
stuck to the bottom, when it lets go you can sort of see where the dough
surface is momentarily stretched out of shape from the tug. It doesnt
really fall through empty space, it just deforms into a blunt "hersheys
kiss" shape and then drops back into boule shape. The dough is very fragile
indeed and if it were to actually drop it would certainly deflate. So if it
wasnt sticking at all, it probably would just roll out (no drop) as you say.

hutchndi

On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 01:02:52 -0500, "hutchndi"
> wrote:


>
> That was a communication error on my part. The dough was fully risen to
>crowning over the bowl, and inverted it is touching the parchment . The
>"drop" is when I am carefully lifting off the bowl while the dough is still
>stuck to the bottom, when it lets go you can sort of see where the dough
>surface is momentarily stretched out of shape from the tug. It doesnt
>really fall through empty space, it just deforms into a blunt "hersheys
>kiss" shape and then drops back into boule shape. The dough is very fragile
>indeed and if it were to actually drop it would certainly deflate. So if it
>wasnt sticking at all, it probably would just roll out (no drop) as you say.
>
>hutchndi
>

Hello again,

Keep looking for the rice flour...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

hutchndi wrote:

> But as I cut through the first loaf, I am finding that
> the top crust is elevated above the main body of the bread, attached by a
> 1/2 inch webwork of stretched looking enlarged holes.

Hutch...

15 hours is too long to let a dough final proof. You can't buffer it
with flour for that long, so it sticks to the wood. Rice flour won't
change that.

Also, the dough gets gassy and gluten gets too relaxed. Symptoms are
these: the dough settles a lot after you've inverted it. It spreads a
bit. You're seeing an inch and a half in height aren't you? The oven
spring is unevenly distributed. All of that gas rises to the top. You
know this before you've cut it since the finished bread feels bottom
heavy.

I call these flabby doughs.

The solution is simple. Go back to bulk proof in the dough bucket. Get
some S&F's in within 4 hours of the bake. This tones the gluten and
degasses the loaf to an appropriate amount.

I like the web cam... but it needs a ruler don't you think <g>.

Will

Kenneth wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 01:02:52 -0500, "hutchndi"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>
>> That was a communication error on my part. The dough was fully risen to
>>crowning over the bowl, and inverted it is touching the parchment . The
>>"drop" is when I am carefully lifting off the bowl while the dough is still
>>stuck to the bottom, when it lets go you can sort of see where the dough
>>surface is momentarily stretched out of shape from the tug. It doesnt
>>really fall through empty space, it just deforms into a blunt "hersheys
>>kiss" shape and then drops back into boule shape. The dough is very fragile
>>indeed and if it were to actually drop it would certainly deflate. So if it
>>wasnt sticking at all, it probably would just roll out (no drop) as you say.
>>
>>hutchndi
>>
>
> Hello again,
>
> Keep looking for the rice flour...

It's available in the Asian/Japanese markets, called "mochiko." (mochi =
rice, ko = child). NOT "nuka," which is rice bran and used to make a
fermented mash for salt pickles.

B/

Will" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> 15 hours is too long to let a dough final proof. You can't buffer it
> with flour for that long, so it sticks to the wood. Rice flour won't
> change that.
>

But my straight dough recipe took that long to rise, my house was empty and
only around 63 degrees. This just doesnt work?


> All of that gas rises to the top. You
> know this before you've cut it since the finished bread feels bottom
> heavy.
>

Wouldnt the gas be at the bottom, after all that way was "up" for 15
hours....



> I like the web cam... but it needs a ruler don't you think <g>.


Good idea. Maybe I can overlay it onto a clear proof box cover.

hutchndi

hutchndi wrote:

> But my straight dough recipe took that long to rise, my house was empty and
> only around 63 degrees. This just doesnt work?

Well... you were posting the problem. The evidence is in front of you.

> Wouldnt the gas be at the bottom, after all that way was "up" for 15
> hours....

CO2 is heavy.

Hutch... think this through. The dough sticks, it bakes poorly. Does
another 15 hour proof make sense?

Plus... I am telling you that I've been there and it screwed me too.

Will

Will whats the difference between a "flabby dough" and one that is a bit
over proofed?

hutchndi

hutchndi wrote:
> Will whats the difference between a "flabby dough" and one that is a bit
> over proofed?

MO: overproofed falls apart, i. e. doesn't keep it's internal structure.
Flabby is wet and softer, but keeps it's internal structure, you can
stretch it a lot, with over proofed, the strings break and you can't
stretch it as much.


S

hutchndi wrote:
> Will whats the difference between a "flabby dough" and one that is a bit
> over proofed?
>
> hutchndi

Nothing really. They're cousins. One is a little older than the other.

Will wrote:
> hutchndi wrote:
> > Will whats the difference between a "flabby dough" and one that is a bit
> > over proofed?
> >
> > hutchndi
>
> Nothing really. They're cousins. One is a little older than the other.

Actually, I rather like Samartha's answer.