Hello.

I've had my starter for about a month now. I was the guy who wrote about a
month ago saying that my starter was extremely active, and showed signs of
activity after a couple of hours. Anyhoo.... a footnote on that -- as some
people suggested, it was just initial growth, and it slowed down and resumed
normal growth after a bit. I've been using it since then, and it's been
fine.

However, I haven't touched it in a couple of weeks. And this time, when I
decided to use it, it was a little different.

At first, when I made the proof, it did nothing. It just sat there, and got
a little bubbly. I followed the instructions to restart a starter, and it
still did nothing. It's been on my counter for 3 days now, and hasn't done
very much. Bubbled a bit, but that's all.

It smells like old, cheap whiskey. Or maybe very strong, sour wine that's
been sitting in a glass on the counter for a long time. Or maybe beer
that's gone rancid in a can/bottle that was forgotten about. Not a
particularly unpleasant smell, but not a particularly good one. I'm sorry,
I can't really describe it very well. The flavor is *extremely* sour. My
gut told me that perhaps I should get rid of it, take another batch out of
the fridge and start it again. However.......

I fed it again this AM, after removing 1/2 of what was in the bowl, and
replacing it with flour and water. All of a sudden, FFOOOM! It woke up!!!
It stil has that weird smell to it, and that extremely sour taste. But,
it's become very active.

My question is... is it OK to use? Or, shoud I get rid of it, and take
another batch out of the fridge, and re-do it?

The REAL Pope Emperor FrogMaN wrote:

> My question is... is it OK to use? Or, shoud I get rid of it, and take
> another batch out of the fridge, and re-do it?

It's probably fine, just take a cup of flour and a cup of water or more,
you want something like a pancake batter and add two teaspoons of your
starter to it.

That should 'clean' it. Yeah, it's difficult to describe a smell, but
it should be 'lighter' than that.

B/

"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
...
> The REAL Pope Emperor FrogMaN wrote:
>
> > My question is... is it OK to use? Or, shoud I get rid of it, and take
> > another batch out of the fridge, and re-do it?
>
> It's probably fine, just take a cup of flour and a cup of water or more,
> you want something like a pancake batter and add two teaspoons of your
> starter to it.
>
> That should 'clean' it. Yeah, it's difficult to describe a smell, but
> it should be 'lighter' than that.

Thank you very much. I did that, and after a couple of hours, it's resuming
more of a "lighter" smell. The flavor has toned down somewhat, also. It's
still very sour, but not like sucking on lemons.

The REAL Pope Emperor FrogMaN wrote:

> "Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
> ...
>> The REAL Pope Emperor FrogMaN wrote:
>>
>> > My question is... is it OK to use? Or, shoud I get rid of it, and take
>> > another batch out of the fridge, and re-do it?
>>
>> It's probably fine, just take a cup of flour and a cup of water or more,
>> you want something like a pancake batter and add two teaspoons of your
>> starter to it.
>>
>> That should 'clean' it. Yeah, it's difficult to describe a smell, but
>> it should be 'lighter' than that.
>
> Thank you very much. I did that, and after a couple of hours, it's resuming
> more of a "lighter" smell. The flavor has toned down somewhat, also. It's
> still very sour, but not like sucking on lemons.

Well, flavor of the starter isn't that important I don't think...
neither particularly would be the smell unless it's waaay out of the
ballpark. It may be your starter has a more intense odor than some.
It's how your bread turns out that's important.

B/

Brian Mailman:
> Well, flavor of the starter isn't that important I don't think...
> neither particularly would be the smell unless it's waaay out of the
> ballpark. It may be your starter has a more intense odor than some.
> It's how your bread turns out that's important.
Certainly the initial starter is a small percentage of the final dough, but
the smell seems to vary very sensitively with the starter's health and
condition. Too much sourness seems to indicate maybe too much rye flour or
too low temp. Alcohol smell means it's time to feed. A bad or rotten
smell may suggest adding more rye to help preserve the starter better.
These are all unscientific impressions, and it would be nice to hear other
people's experiences. But smell seems to be an excellent tool in
troubleshooting a starter. As for flavor, you should never eat or taste
raw starter, right? So that shouldn't be an issue.

Another Dan wrote:

> As for flavor, you should never eat or taste raw starter, right?

Right. It'll grow in your belly and stick.

Don't put beans in your ears either for the same reasons.

B/

Brian Mailman wrote:
>> As for flavor, you should never eat or taste raw starter, right?
> Right. It'll grow in your belly and stick.
Actually, I tried that once, and for a couple days, it felt like it was
growing in the back of my throat. Kind of unpleasant and worrisome. Of
course, it won't grow in the belly because of stomach acids.

> Don't put beans in your ears either for the same reasons.
Now you can't fool me on that one -- beans grow just fine in your ears, and
they taste delicious too! Potatoes also do quite well, but they don't fit
nearly as well.

"Another Dan" > wrote in message
...
> Brian Mailman wrote:
> >> As for flavor, you should never eat or taste raw starter, right?
> > Right. It'll grow in your belly and stick.
> Actually, I tried that once, and for a couple days, it felt like it was
> growing in the back of my throat. Kind of unpleasant and worrisome. Of
> course, it won't grow in the belly because of stomach acids.

What about if you swallow a bunch of soil, first? Some plants like
extremely acidic soil.

> > Don't put beans in your ears either for the same reasons.
> Now you can't fool me on that one -- beans grow just fine in your ears,
and
> they taste delicious too! Potatoes also do quite well, but they don't fit
> nearly as well.

I've never tried ear-beans before. I had a roommate in college who was
severely lacking in the hygiene department. It wouldn't surprise me in the
least if he could grow stuff on his person.

"Another Dan" > wrote in message
...
> Brian Mailman:
> > Well, flavor of the starter isn't that important I don't think...
> > neither particularly would be the smell unless it's waaay out of the
> > ballpark. It may be your starter has a more intense odor than some.
> > It's how your bread turns out that's important.

> Certainly the initial starter is a small percentage of the final dough,
but
> the smell seems to vary very sensitively with the starter's health and
> condition. Too much sourness seems to indicate maybe too much rye flour
or

I haven't used rye flour. I searched 6 stores in my area, and none of them
carried it. I even searched health food places. When I feed my starter, I
usually use a combination if 1/4 c. whole grain whole wheat flour, and 3/4
c. all purpose unbleached flour.

> As for flavor, you should never eat or taste raw starter, right?

I always taste my starter. I don't swallow it, though, I spit it out. I
always taste my bread doughs before the rise, to make sure the flavors are
OK -- not too salty, etc. I then taste it after the initial rise. If it
doesn't have a good flavor, I scrap it and start again. If it has a so-so
flavor, I create bread out of it and then use the bread for croutons, or
bread crumbs, or something. In my area, flour is extremely inexpensive --
$1.10 for a 5 lb. bag of unbleached AP (at the grocery store), or $2.79 for
a 20 lb. bag of unbleached AP (at Costco). Granted, it's not super quality
stuff, but if it's just me, I don't care about the quality of the flour I
use. If I'm baking for other people, then I am very careful about the
quality of the flours (and other ingredients) that I use - then I use King
Arthur, or Red Mills.

"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
...
> The REAL Pope Emperor FrogMaN wrote:
>
> > Thank you very much. I did that, and after a couple of hours, it's
resuming
> > more of a "lighter" smell. The flavor has toned down somewhat, also.
It's
> > still very sour, but not like sucking on lemons.
>
> Well, flavor of the starter isn't that important I don't think...
> neither particularly would be the smell unless it's waaay out of the
> ballpark. It may be your starter has a more intense odor than some.
> It's how your bread turns out that's important.

Thanks again. I tried making some bread out of it. It didn't rise very
well, but the flavor was OK. So, I fed the starter and let it sit for
another 24 hours, and then tried to make bread again. The second time,
there was a much better rise, and a nice flavor to it.

The REAL Pope Emperor FrogMaN wrote:

> I always taste my starter. I don't swallow it, though, I spit it
> out.

A-hem.

> I always taste my bread doughs before the rise, to make sure the
> flavors are OK -- not too salty, etc. I then taste it after the
> initial rise.

That might work for yeasted doughs, but with sourdough most of the
flavors develop in the final rise.

> ... In my area, flour is extremely inexpensive -- $1.10 for a 5 lb.
> bag of unbleached AP (at the grocery store), or $2.79 for a 20 lb.
> bag of unbleached AP (at Costco).

Well, if your AP is 12% gluten, that's at the lowest end of bread flour
(13% for Pillsbury Better for Bread). You might want to invest in a
bread flour, or a teaspoon of gluten itself per cup of AP flour.

B/

"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
...
> The REAL Pope Emperor FrogMaN wrote:
>
> > I always taste my starter. I don't swallow it, though, I spit it
> > out.
>
> A-hem.

Oops... haha. That came out totally wrong.

> Well, if your AP is 12% gluten, that's at the lowest end of bread flour
> (13% for Pillsbury Better for Bread). You might want to invest in a
> bread flour, or a teaspoon of gluten itself per cup of AP flour.

Thanks for the information. I usually buy King Arthur bread flour for when
I want to make good quality bread.

I was happy today -- I found rye flour!!!!! I looked in 6 different places
locally to find it, with no avail. It was just this tiny hole-in-the-wall
mom 'n pop store that I wouldn't have noticed if I wasn't walking by it at
the time. They had several varieties, so I chose Red Mills. When I got
home, I decided to mix a quantity of sponge with the rye flour, and I swear
the yeasts and bacteria were jumping for joy and having a party. I think I
better go yell at them to quiet down, else I'm going to call the cops. Damn
noisy yeasts.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:37:46 -0700, Brian Mailman
> wrote:

>Well, if your AP is 12% gluten, that's at the lowest end of bread flour
>(13% for Pillsbury Better for Bread). You might want to invest in a
>bread flour, or a teaspoon of gluten itself per cup of AP flour.

Howdy,

It might be useful to remember that the designation "bread
flour" is just a marketing thing.

For example, the white flour used in France is far lower in
protein than is American "bread flour" and would not
qualify.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 07:55:52 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:

>For example, the white flour used in France

Ooops.

That should have been "For example, the white flour used in
France for bread etc."

Thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:37:46 -0700, Brian Mailman
> > wrote:
>
>>Well, if your AP is 12% gluten, that's at the lowest end of bread flour
>>(13% for Pillsbury Better for Bread). You might want to invest in a
>>bread flour, or a teaspoon of gluten itself per cup of AP flour.
>
> Howdy,
>
> It might be useful to remember that the designation "bread
> flour" is just a marketing thing.

Yes, that's why I phrased it that way.

B/

The REAL Pope Emperor FrogMaN wrote:

> "Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
> ...
>> The REAL Pope Emperor FrogMaN wrote:
>>
>> > I always taste my starter. I don't swallow it, though, I spit it
>> > out.
>>
>> A-hem.
>
> Oops... haha. That came out totally wrong.

In my house that's a "oh my and I think I should start some tea NOW"...

>> Well, if your AP is 12% gluten, that's at the lowest end of bread flour
>> (13% for Pillsbury Better for Bread). You might want to invest in a
>> bread flour, or a teaspoon of gluten itself per cup of AP flour.
>
> Thanks for the information. I usually buy King Arthur bread flour for when
> I want to make good quality bread.

Ah, OK. Versus the "what's for tonight" kind.

> I was happy today -- I found rye flour!!!!! I looked in 6 different places
> locally to find it, with no avail.

Where are you? The Safeway near me in SF stopped carrying it a while
ago, when they expanded the store. More and more items, less and less
variety.

> Damn noisy yeasts.

BACK, I say!! BACK!!!

B/

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 10:01:50 -0700, Brian Mailman
> wrote:

>Kenneth wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:37:46 -0700, Brian Mailman
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>Well, if your AP is 12% gluten, that's at the lowest end of bread flour
>>>(13% for Pillsbury Better for Bread). You might want to invest in a
>>>bread flour, or a teaspoon of gluten itself per cup of AP flour.
>>
>> Howdy,
>>
>> It might be useful to remember that the designation "bread
>> flour" is just a marketing thing.
>
>Yes, that's why I phrased it that way.
>
>B/

Hi Brian,

That is why you phrased what, what way?

My point was that wheat flour need not be from hard (that is
high protein) grain to make wonderful bread.

What were you trying to convey?

Thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
...
> The REAL Pope Emperor FrogMaN wrote:
>
> > Oops... haha. That came out totally wrong.
>
> In my house that's a "oh my and I think I should start some tea NOW"...

LOL.

> >> Well, if your AP is 12% gluten, that's at the lowest end of bread flour
> >> (13% for Pillsbury Better for Bread). You might want to invest in a
> >> bread flour, or a teaspoon of gluten itself per cup of AP flour.
> >
> > Thanks for the information. I usually buy King Arthur bread flour for
when
> > I want to make good quality bread.
>
> Ah, OK. Versus the "what's for tonight" kind.

*nod* The best flour I had was some I brought home with me from China. I
visited this very small farming village (maybe 1,000 residents) where
they're completely self-sufficient, and mill all their own flours. I was
there for homestay for a week, so my host (who is the town's baker --
breads, noodles, etc.) and I had a baking exchange. I made them several
types of western-type breads, and he taught me several techniques on making
Chinese-style breads and noodles. I didn't have time to make a sufficiently
good sourdough starter, unfortunately. Anyways, he gave me some flour to
take home (which isn't entirely legal to bring into the US).

> > I was happy today -- I found rye flour!!!!! I looked in 6 different
places
> > locally to find it, with no avail.
>
> Where are you? The Safeway near me in SF stopped carrying it a while
> ago, when they expanded the store. More and more items, less and less
> variety.

I live in the Riverside area of Southern California. My sister used to live
in San Jose, and her local Safeway stopped carrying it, too. This place I
mentioned had 3 brands -- Arrowhead Mills, Red Mills, and then some hybrid
brand that had rye and other flour mixed. I bought the Red Mills, because
it was a 5 lb. bag for $3.00 vs. the Arrowhead which was a 1.6 lb. bag for
$3.00.

I just found another place -- Clark's. There might be one in your area, as
they have several stores around CA. They had Red Mills there. I was
looking for flaxseed meal, as I like to add that to bread sometimes for
flavor and texture. They also had nigella seeds, which I like to use in
Naan bread that I smoke on my grill to cook.