Wow.. it's great to find this resource, albeit a bit late for my first
starter batch. I can defintely see there is a fairly large learning
curve in advancing my sourdough baking techniques past where I am now.

About 10 days ago I decided to begin a starter after having a
discussion with my girlfriend about starters and sourdough, she
beleiving that sourdough starters simply added flavor to the bread and
you were still required to add commercial yeast in order to rise a
loaf. Given that she doesn't bake (nor cook more than boiling water
from time to time) I decided to prove her wrong.

I did just a few minutes of reading online and decided to jump right
in. I began with a non-standard starter method using organic Rye flour
and water. With my oven on its lowest 'warming' setting the storage
drawer at the bottom held a perfect 75 degrees. I mixed up two batches
of rye starter, one using plain filtered water, the other using potato
water. Both were started using 1c water and 1.5c flour.

Feeding was every 12 hours. I poured out the contents saving 1/2 cup
and fed with the same ration of water/rye flour that I used to begin
the started.

After 3 days there was definite activity -- I was seeing about a 25%
rise with very small bubbles and LOTS of hooch. The smell was
extremely sour.

The original instructions I read told me to switch over to regular
white flour feeds at this point which I did.

By the 7th day I was getting 150% rises, foamy tops, and what appeared
to be a very active starter. Both the rye/water and rye/potato water
starters have the same activity now although the potato water starter
probably showed a little more activity early on compared to the water
only one.

The smell is quite unique and I'm not sure if it's good or bad. It's a
very sweet alcohol smell with sour tinges. The feeding rises complete
about 4-5 hours after feeding and are totally settled back down to
initial volume 12 hours later -- which is when the hooch starts
appearing. The hooch is clear with a slight yellow tinge around the
edges.

Today I decided to try a baguette loaf with the starter. I pulled out
one cup of starter 4 hours after feeding and started a sponge adding
1c/1c and letting that go for 4 hours then repeating. I then took 2c
of that mixture and slowly added flour in the mixture until it formed
the right consistency. (salt was also added). This was about 6 cups
total -- 2c starter, 4c additional flour, 2 tsp salt. After the flour
went in I kneaded in the mixer for 10 minutes and set it in my proofing
bowl for the first rise.

I was totally suprised at how fast the mixture rose. It doubled in
approximately 35 minutes at 75 degrees. Given how fast it rose I
knocked it down and gave it a second proofing in the bowl for another
45 minutes which resulted in doubling.

I lightly knocked that down and rolled the baguettes and put them in my
baguette trays for rising for 30 minutes -- slashed and baked.

The results were still very crazy. even after two proofings the
baguettes rose over the edges of the rounded french loaf trays. I'd
say it nearly doubled up from it's starting baking point in the first
ten minutes.

The overall result was pretty pleasant. With steam and misting it
produced a nice chewy crust and light and airy core. Unfotunately
there was only a small hint of sourness in the bread.

Overall I still consider it an amazing success for a starter that was
only a week old and I definitely proved to the significant other that
one could rise bread without the addition of commercial yeast -- which
made me happy.

My question now is whether or not to continue these starters or order
some that are much more mature. My starters definitely rise well,
(Make great biscuits!! tried that tonight), but just don't have the
sour flavor I'm looking for.

Will these starters mature over time? Will I get a more sour flavor in
another month or so once they mature more?

Is my sweet but sour alcohol smell a good thing?

Should I have stayed with the rye flour instead of switching over to
white bread flour? I may spawn some of it off into rye just to see
how that goes anyway.

-Scott
Alexandria, VA

wrote:

> The overall result was pretty pleasant. With steam and misting it
> produced a nice chewy crust and light and airy core. Unfotunately
> there was only a small hint of sourness in the bread.

you've now found the heisenberg principle of sourdough... how to get
both rise and sour at the same time.

b/

> in message =
ups.com...
rambled a bit, and asked if he might be on the right track

Scott, since you are, by your e-addy, an innovator, I suspect that
you will do whatever you do in whatever way you elect to do it in.

But perhaps you would be interested in my graphical explanation of
my process, i.e.,
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...structions.doc
at http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...owthcurve2.GIF
based on http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#SEC10

My presumption is that (a) the concentration of bacterial products is
kept low by dilutions, but increases in the dough stage and/or (b)
bacterial growth (and the production of their acidic and tasty products)
is enhanced by the appearance of nutritive body parts of dead and dying
yeast when the yeast runs out of nutritive substances. (One theory, as =
you
may have heard, holds that the yeast leave maltose for the bacteria.)

I feel that the generation of this sort of pictorial complexity is =
innovative,
so I thought you might be able to take some interest in it. It is, =
however,
generally unacceptable to the R.F.S. readership, and certainly not worth
taking any chance of a headache.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

> in message =
ups.com...
rambled a bit, and asked if he might be on the right track

Scott, since you are, by your e-addy, an innovator, I suspect that
you will do whatever you do in whatever way you elect to do it in.

But perhaps you would be interested in my graphical explanation of
my process, i.e.,
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...structions.doc
at http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...owthcurve2.GIF
based on http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#SEC10

My presumption is that (a) the concentration of bacterial products is
kept low by dilutions, but increases in the dough stage and/or (b)
bacterial growth (and the production of their acidic and tasty products)
is enhanced by the appearance of nutritive body parts of dead and dying
yeast when the yeast runs out of nutritive substances. (One theory, as =
you
may have heard, holds that the yeast leave maltose for the bacteria.)

I feel that the generation of this sort of pictorial complexity is =
innovative,
so I thought you might be able to take some interest in it. It is, =
however,
generally unacceptable to the R.F.S. readership, and certainly not worth
taking any chance of a headache.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 23:21:06 -0800,
wrote:

> Wow.. it's great to find this resource, albeit a bit late for my first
> starter batch. I can defintely see there is a fairly large learning
> curve in advancing my sourdough baking techniques past where I am now.
>

You may get bogged down in conflicting advice and voodoo baking here once
and a while. When in doubt, do a careful experiment to test a new idea out.

> About 10 days ago I decided to begin a starter after having a
> discussion with my girlfriend about starters and sourdough, she
> beleiving that sourdough starters simply added flavor to the bread and
> you were still required to add commercial yeast in order to rise a
> loaf. Given that she doesn't bake (nor cook more than boiling water
> from time to time) I decided to prove her wrong.
>

Some people do add commercial yeast to sourdough. As you discovered, it
isn't necessary to do so.

> I did just a few minutes of reading online and decided to jump right
> in. I began with a non-standard starter method using organic Rye flour
> and water. With my oven on its lowest 'warming' setting the storage
> drawer at the bottom held a perfect 75 degrees. I mixed up two batches
> of rye starter, one using plain filtered water, the other using potato
> water. Both were started using 1c water and 1.5c flour.
>
> Feeding was every 12 hours. I poured out the contents saving 1/2 cup
> and fed with the same ration of water/rye flour that I used to begin
> the started.
>
> After 3 days there was definite activity -- I was seeing about a 25%
> rise with very small bubbles and LOTS of hooch. The smell was
> extremely sour.
>
> The original instructions I read told me to switch over to regular
> white flour feeds at this point which I did.
>

If you start a starter with rye, I don't see any harm in keeping it on
rye, if you desire.

> By the 7th day I was getting 150% rises, foamy tops, and what appeared
> to be a very active starter. Both the rye/water and rye/potato water
> starters have the same activity now although the potato water starter
> probably showed a little more activity early on compared to the water
> only one.
>
> The smell is quite unique and I'm not sure if it's good or bad. It's a
> very sweet alcohol smell with sour tinges. The feeding rises complete
> about 4-5 hours after feeding and are totally settled back down to
> initial volume 12 hours later -- which is when the hooch starts
> appearing. The hooch is clear with a slight yellow tinge around the
> edges.
>

This 12-hour business may be good for getting the culture going, I don't
know. But it is a lousy way to maintain an established starter, IMO. Once
the starter seems healthy, I would probably feed it once every 3 or 4
hours if it seems very active. If you refrigerate it, you don't have to
feed it very often at all. Lots of people say once a week or twice a week.
But if the starter was healthy when it went in, it can probably be revived
after months of neglect in the refrigerator.

> Today I decided to try a baguette loaf with the starter. I pulled out
> one cup of starter 4 hours after feeding and started a sponge adding
> 1c/1c and letting that go for 4 hours then repeating. I then took 2c
> of that mixture and slowly added flour in the mixture until it formed
> the right consistency. (salt was also added). This was about 6 cups
> total -- 2c starter, 4c additional flour, 2 tsp salt. After the flour
> went in I kneaded in the mixer for 10 minutes and set it in my proofing
> bowl for the first rise.
>
> I was totally suprised at how fast the mixture rose. It doubled in
> approximately 35 minutes at 75 degrees. Given how fast it rose I
> knocked it down and gave it a second proofing in the bowl for another
> 45 minutes which resulted in doubling.
>
> I lightly knocked that down and rolled the baguettes and put them in my
> baguette trays for rising for 30 minutes -- slashed and baked.
>

Your loaves rise MUCH faster than mine. Mine are 100% whole wheat, though.
Maybe Dick Adams can chime in here about how fast his white flour loaves
rise.

> The results were still very crazy. even after two proofings the
> baguettes rose over the edges of the rounded french loaf trays. I'd
> say it nearly doubled up from it's starting baking point in the first
> ten minutes.
>

This is referred to hereabouts as "oven bounce."

> The overall result was pretty pleasant. With steam and misting it
> produced a nice chewy crust and light and airy core. Unfotunately
> there was only a small hint of sourness in the bread.
>
> Overall I still consider it an amazing success for a starter that was
> only a week old and I definitely proved to the significant other that
> one could rise bread without the addition of commercial yeast -- which
> made me happy.
>
> My question now is whether or not to continue these starters or order
> some that are much more mature. My starters definitely rise well,
> (Make great biscuits!! tried that tonight), but just don't have the
> sour flavor I'm looking for.
>

Given your results, I think you should continue with the starters you
have. If they prove to be robust over time, there might not be any reason
to ever use another starter.

Then again, if you are the curious sort, maybe you should try a
well-established starer and compare results.

> Will these starters mature over time? Will I get a more sour flavor in
> another month or so once they mature more?
>

The sourness seems to be a function mainly of how long you let the dough
rise (or the starter ferment). If you let the starter sour a little more
before you pull it, that might help. If you let the dough rise longer,
that might help. This may also slow the rise a little.

Also, you can maintain your starter at equal weights water and flour, then
use a larger proportion of starter when you start to bake your loaf.

> Is my sweet but sour alcohol smell a good thing?
>

Well, if it smells like alcohol, you may have let it go a tad too long
without feeding it. But the smell of sourdough is hard to describe, and
yours sounds like it may very well be normal.

> Should I have stayed with the rye flour instead of switching over to
> white bread flour? I may spawn some of it off into rye just to see
> how that goes anyway.
>

I already commented on this above, somewhere.

> -Scott
> Alexandria, VA

Congratulations on your success! I'd appreciate hearing how your starter
is doing in a few months. Or less if there is a dramatic change.

--Mac

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 23:21:06 -0800,
wrote:

> Wow.. it's great to find this resource, albeit a bit late for my first
> starter batch. I can defintely see there is a fairly large learning
> curve in advancing my sourdough baking techniques past where I am now.
>

You may get bogged down in conflicting advice and voodoo baking here once
and a while. When in doubt, do a careful experiment to test a new idea out.

> About 10 days ago I decided to begin a starter after having a
> discussion with my girlfriend about starters and sourdough, she
> beleiving that sourdough starters simply added flavor to the bread and
> you were still required to add commercial yeast in order to rise a
> loaf. Given that she doesn't bake (nor cook more than boiling water
> from time to time) I decided to prove her wrong.
>

Some people do add commercial yeast to sourdough. As you discovered, it
isn't necessary to do so.

> I did just a few minutes of reading online and decided to jump right
> in. I began with a non-standard starter method using organic Rye flour
> and water. With my oven on its lowest 'warming' setting the storage
> drawer at the bottom held a perfect 75 degrees. I mixed up two batches
> of rye starter, one using plain filtered water, the other using potato
> water. Both were started using 1c water and 1.5c flour.
>
> Feeding was every 12 hours. I poured out the contents saving 1/2 cup
> and fed with the same ration of water/rye flour that I used to begin
> the started.
>
> After 3 days there was definite activity -- I was seeing about a 25%
> rise with very small bubbles and LOTS of hooch. The smell was
> extremely sour.
>
> The original instructions I read told me to switch over to regular
> white flour feeds at this point which I did.
>

If you start a starter with rye, I don't see any harm in keeping it on
rye, if you desire.

> By the 7th day I was getting 150% rises, foamy tops, and what appeared
> to be a very active starter. Both the rye/water and rye/potato water
> starters have the same activity now although the potato water starter
> probably showed a little more activity early on compared to the water
> only one.
>
> The smell is quite unique and I'm not sure if it's good or bad. It's a
> very sweet alcohol smell with sour tinges. The feeding rises complete
> about 4-5 hours after feeding and are totally settled back down to
> initial volume 12 hours later -- which is when the hooch starts
> appearing. The hooch is clear with a slight yellow tinge around the
> edges.
>

This 12-hour business may be good for getting the culture going, I don't
know. But it is a lousy way to maintain an established starter, IMO. Once
the starter seems healthy, I would probably feed it once every 3 or 4
hours if it seems very active. If you refrigerate it, you don't have to
feed it very often at all. Lots of people say once a week or twice a week.
But if the starter was healthy when it went in, it can probably be revived
after months of neglect in the refrigerator.

> Today I decided to try a baguette loaf with the starter. I pulled out
> one cup of starter 4 hours after feeding and started a sponge adding
> 1c/1c and letting that go for 4 hours then repeating. I then took 2c
> of that mixture and slowly added flour in the mixture until it formed
> the right consistency. (salt was also added). This was about 6 cups
> total -- 2c starter, 4c additional flour, 2 tsp salt. After the flour
> went in I kneaded in the mixer for 10 minutes and set it in my proofing
> bowl for the first rise.
>
> I was totally suprised at how fast the mixture rose. It doubled in
> approximately 35 minutes at 75 degrees. Given how fast it rose I
> knocked it down and gave it a second proofing in the bowl for another
> 45 minutes which resulted in doubling.
>
> I lightly knocked that down and rolled the baguettes and put them in my
> baguette trays for rising for 30 minutes -- slashed and baked.
>

Your loaves rise MUCH faster than mine. Mine are 100% whole wheat, though.
Maybe Dick Adams can chime in here about how fast his white flour loaves
rise.

> The results were still very crazy. even after two proofings the
> baguettes rose over the edges of the rounded french loaf trays. I'd
> say it nearly doubled up from it's starting baking point in the first
> ten minutes.
>

This is referred to hereabouts as "oven bounce."

> The overall result was pretty pleasant. With steam and misting it
> produced a nice chewy crust and light and airy core. Unfotunately
> there was only a small hint of sourness in the bread.
>
> Overall I still consider it an amazing success for a starter that was
> only a week old and I definitely proved to the significant other that
> one could rise bread without the addition of commercial yeast -- which
> made me happy.
>
> My question now is whether or not to continue these starters or order
> some that are much more mature. My starters definitely rise well,
> (Make great biscuits!! tried that tonight), but just don't have the
> sour flavor I'm looking for.
>

Given your results, I think you should continue with the starters you
have. If they prove to be robust over time, there might not be any reason
to ever use another starter.

Then again, if you are the curious sort, maybe you should try a
well-established starer and compare results.

> Will these starters mature over time? Will I get a more sour flavor in
> another month or so once they mature more?
>

The sourness seems to be a function mainly of how long you let the dough
rise (or the starter ferment). If you let the starter sour a little more
before you pull it, that might help. If you let the dough rise longer,
that might help. This may also slow the rise a little.

Also, you can maintain your starter at equal weights water and flour, then
use a larger proportion of starter when you start to bake your loaf.

> Is my sweet but sour alcohol smell a good thing?
>

Well, if it smells like alcohol, you may have let it go a tad too long
without feeding it. But the smell of sourdough is hard to describe, and
yours sounds like it may very well be normal.

> Should I have stayed with the rye flour instead of switching over to
> white bread flour? I may spawn some of it off into rye just to see
> how that goes anyway.
>

I already commented on this above, somewhere.

> -Scott
> Alexandria, VA

Congratulations on your success! I'd appreciate hearing how your starter
is doing in a few months. Or less if there is a dramatic change.

--Mac

wrote:

[a successful sourdough from scratch report]

Congratulations!

> Will these starters mature over time? Will I get a more sour flavor in
> another month or so once they mature more?

They probably will change over time. Acid content is mainly influenced
by fermentation time and by buffering - you may get more acid content
with fuller grain flours.

> Is my sweet but sour alcohol smell a good thing?

A very good indication - the organisms are doing their thing.

> Should I have stayed with the rye flour instead of switching over to
> white bread flour? I may spawn some of it off into rye just to see
> how that goes anyway.

Experimenting is a good idea. What you do with your starters is entirely
up to you. Practically is another aspect. If you do mainly rye, you may
want to keep your starter in rye. Same goes for white.

I personally think that full grain rye starters are richer. Everyone has
his/her preferences to go by. All depends what you like - or dislike, if
you have a maso tendency, then you can do that and be pervertedly happy.

Luckily, it's not yet against the law to make bread with the wong
starter. If the current trend continues, this may change in the US, when
things are more under control.

Samartha

wrote:

[a successful sourdough from scratch report]

Congratulations!

> Will these starters mature over time? Will I get a more sour flavor in
> another month or so once they mature more?

They probably will change over time. Acid content is mainly influenced
by fermentation time and by buffering - you may get more acid content
with fuller grain flours.

> Is my sweet but sour alcohol smell a good thing?

A very good indication - the organisms are doing their thing.

> Should I have stayed with the rye flour instead of switching over to
> white bread flour? I may spawn some of it off into rye just to see
> how that goes anyway.

Experimenting is a good idea. What you do with your starters is entirely
up to you. Practically is another aspect. If you do mainly rye, you may
want to keep your starter in rye. Same goes for white.

I personally think that full grain rye starters are richer. Everyone has
his/her preferences to go by. All depends what you like - or dislike, if
you have a maso tendency, then you can do that and be pervertedly happy.

Luckily, it's not yet against the law to make bread with the wong
starter. If the current trend continues, this may change in the US, when
things are more under control.

Samartha

Dick, pictoral representations are always a good bet... of course the
subject (myself specifically) would have to understand what you were
talking about when you refer to such things as bacterial growth and
dilution ratios

Dick Adams wrote:
> > in message ups.com...
> rambled a bit, and asked if he might be on the right track
>
> Scott, since you are, by your e-addy, an innovator, I suspect that
> you will do whatever you do in whatever way you elect to do it in.
>
> But perhaps you would be interested in my graphical explanation of
> my process, i.e.,
> http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...structions.doc
> at http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...owthcurve2.GIF
> based on http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#SEC10
>
> My presumption is that (a) the concentration of bacterial products is
> kept low by dilutions, but increases in the dough stage and/or (b)
> bacterial growth (and the production of their acidic and tasty products)
> is enhanced by the appearance of nutritive body parts of dead and dying
> yeast when the yeast runs out of nutritive substances. (One theory, as you
> may have heard, holds that the yeast leave maltose for the bacteria.)
>
> I feel that the generation of this sort of pictorial complexity is innovative,
> so I thought you might be able to take some interest in it. It is, however,
> generally unacceptable to the R.F.S. readership, and certainly not worth
> taking any chance of a headache.
>
while we are on the subject of pics- thought i would link mine. as you
all know i am a noobie, however with the assistance from this group, i
think i am finally getting somewhere. these loaves were made using the
recipe above-thx DickA! i slashed the one on the right directly after
forming, and the one on the left right before baking (testing to see if
slashing before or after rise made a diff).

i found that it had crispy crust and the crumb was soft and not very
sour. so on the next loaves i used a rye starter as base, and had a
much more sd taste, at least the sd taste i like

thx again to the everyone on the ng

here are the pics:
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-3/964783/P1010013(7).JPG
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-3/964783/p1010011(7).JPG
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-3/964783/p1010009(8).JPG
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-3/964783/p1010010(11).JPG

dan w wrote:

> Dick Adams wrote:
>
>> > in message
>> ups.com...
>> rambled a bit, and asked if he might be on the right track
>>
>> Scott, since you are, by your e-addy, an innovator, I suspect that
>> you will do whatever you do in whatever way you elect to do it in.
>>
>> But perhaps you would be interested in my graphical explanation of
>> my process, i.e.,
>> http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...structions.doc
>> at http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...owthcurve2.GIF
>> based on http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#SEC10
>>
>> My presumption is that (a) the concentration of bacterial products is
>> kept low by dilutions, but increases in the dough stage and/or (b)
>> bacterial growth (and the production of their acidic and tasty products)
>> is enhanced by the appearance of nutritive body parts of dead and dying
>> yeast when the yeast runs out of nutritive substances. (One theory,
>> as you
>> may have heard, holds that the yeast leave maltose for the bacteria.)
>>
>> I feel that the generation of this sort of pictorial complexity is
>> innovative,
>> so I thought you might be able to take some interest in it. It is,
>> however,
>> generally unacceptable to the R.F.S. readership, and certainly not worth
>> taking any chance of a headache.
>>
> while we are on the subject of pics- thought i would link mine. as you
> all know i am a noobie, however with the assistance from this group, i
> think i am finally getting somewhere. these loaves were made using the
> recipe above-thx DickA! i slashed the one on the right directly after
> forming, and the one on the left right before baking (testing to see if
> slashing before or after rise made a diff).
>
> i found that it had crispy crust and the crumb was soft and not very
> sour. so on the next loaves i used a rye starter as base, and had a
> much more sd taste, at least the sd taste i like
>
> thx again to the everyone on the ng
>
> here are the pics:
>
another noobie mistake, try this one
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrow...der_id=1242225

"dan w" > in message =
showed

> http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrow...5Fid=3D1242225

Good job, danw4. Now, if you could just find your caps key ...

"dan w" > in message =
showed

> http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrow...5Fid=3D1242225

Good job, danw4. Now, if you could just find your caps key ...