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| Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
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Home Mills
I have a question for those of you with home mills, do any of them permit
you to separate the flour? By that I mean; can I "dial-in" that I want "white flour", or is it always--by definition--"whole grain"? Also, is the difference between bread made with freshly milled flour really noticeable? Or is it more a matter of: "I have a my own flour mill next to my 6-digit precision scale...nah, ni, na, ni, nahnaaa?" As most of you know, I eschew the use of most of today's modern technological advances in my baking. But I'm looking at this issue from a health and nutrition point of view. I think there's a gain to be made there...but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I like whole wheat bread, but I'm not a fan of 100% WW--tends to be too dense for my liking. As an aside, does anybody know of someplace in the bay area (left coast, USA) where I might be able to purchase some freshly milled flour for testing, before I spring for a mill? I Googled but didn't come up with anything useful... TIA, Dusty -- Remove STORE to reply |
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On 2/23/05 2:05 PM, "Dusty" > wrote:
> I have a question for those of you with home mills, do any of them permit > you to separate the flour? By that I mean; can I "dial-in" that I want > "white flour", or is it always--by definition--"whole grain"? Dusty, That would be a nice unit indeed. About the only way you can "dial it" to white, or some version approaching white, is shake it through a sieve system. Sieves, and shakers if you want to get techy, can be found at Fisher Scientifics' web site. The sieves are not expensive. The shakers can be. I believe the site searches better using the keyword: screen. > Also, is the difference between bread made with freshly milled flour really > noticeable? Or is it more a matter of: "I have a my own flour mill next to > my 6-digit precision scale...nah, ni, na, ni, nahnaaa?" A good question. For me, it's not so much a flavor issue as a freshness issue. Everything I read says, aged flour gives better dough handling characteristics. But the germ oils oxidize quickly. So it becomes a tradeoff: extensible dough vs. potentially rancid oils. > As most of you know, I eschew the use of most of today's modern > technological advances in my baking. But I'm looking at this issue from a > health and nutrition point of view. I think there's a gain to be made > there...but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I like whole wheat bread, but > I'm not a fan of 100% WW--tends to be too dense for my liking. Well, it is certainly an acquired taste. I like to cut the whole wheat with spelt which is why whenever a noobie wants a recipe to practice on I recommend Kenneth's venerable Poilane formulation. Lots of flavor, modest density. > As an aside, does anybody know of someplace in the bay area (left coast, > USA) where I might be able to purchase some freshly milled flour for > testing, before I spring for a mill? I Googled but didn't come up with > anything useful... > Can't help you there. But if you own a KitchenAid mixer, Ebay usually has a number of resellers carrying the grain mill attachment. It's usually $85. It works well and if you looking for health benefits, it does a fine job cracking grain for hot cereals. If you like fresh cornbread, it is indispensable. Will |
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On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:05:14 -0800, Dusty wrote:
[snip] > As most of you know, I eschew the use of most of today's modern > technological advances in my baking. But I'm looking at this issue from > a health and nutrition point of view. I think there's a gain to be made > there...but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I like whole wheat bread, > but I'm not a fan of 100% WW--tends to be too dense for my liking. > > As an aside, does anybody know of someplace in the bay area (left coast, > USA) where I might be able to purchase some freshly milled flour for > testing, before I spring for a mill? I Googled but didn't come up with > anything useful... > > > TIA, > Dusty I just got a hand-mill (retsel). I haven't really tried it out yet except for a small test batch. It is a lot of work! But I have a solution for you! If you want freshly milled wheat, go to Whole Foods, take about 5 lbs of wheat berries from the bin area, and bring them over to the coffee area. Then put the wheat berries in the store's coffee mill, and grind away! Be sure to let the first half pound or so go onto the floor, as it will be contaminated with coffee flavor. If anyone stares at you while you are doing this, just smile and say "Hi!" All kidding aside, how dense is your 100% WW bread? Maybe there is something wrong with your starter. (Or maybe you just like very airy bread.) Here is a picture of one of my 100% WW sourdough loaves: http://uploads.savefile.com/users/uploads/816274150.jpg It is a little WIDE, as you can see, but since then I have learned how to keep the loaves from spreading quite so much when they rise. And I could always use a bread pan, too, as has been suggested by some. --Mac |
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Mac wrote the following on 2/27/2005 12:54 AM:
> But I have a solution for you! If you want freshly milled wheat, go > to Whole Foods, take about 5 lbs of wheat berries from the bin area, > and bring them over to the coffee area. Then put the wheat berries in > the store's coffee mill, and grind away! I know you are joking about this, but I hope no one gets any ideas. If someone with celiac sprue grinds their coffee beens after someone has been using the grinder to grind wheat they will get very, very sick when they drink their coffee. In fact, I think I'll get my mother her own grinder just in case someone is tempted to try this... Karen R. |
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Mac wrote the following on 2/27/2005 12:54 AM:
> But I have a solution for you! If you want freshly milled wheat, go > to Whole Foods, take about 5 lbs of wheat berries from the bin area, > and bring them over to the coffee area. Then put the wheat berries in > the store's coffee mill, and grind away! I know you are joking about this, but I hope no one gets any ideas. If someone with celiac sprue grinds their coffee beens after someone has been using the grinder to grind wheat they will get very, very sick when they drink their coffee. In fact, I think I'll get my mother her own grinder just in case someone is tempted to try this... Karen R. |
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On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:13:24 +0000, Karen wrote:
> Mac wrote the following on 2/27/2005 12:54 AM: >> But I have a solution for you! If you want freshly milled wheat, go >> to Whole Foods, take about 5 lbs of wheat berries from the bin area, >> and bring them over to the coffee area. Then put the wheat berries in >> the store's coffee mill, and grind away! > > I know you are joking about this, but I hope no one gets any ideas. If > someone with celiac sprue grinds their coffee beens after someone has > been using the grinder to grind wheat they will get very, very sick when > they drink their coffee. In fact, I think I'll get my mother her own > grinder just in case someone is tempted to try this... > > Karen R. Karen, I'm very sorry. After all, with google and such, these posts do get archived for all to read for a long time. Sometimes I tend to forget that. On the plus side, coffee really is much better when it is made from freshly ground beans. So just to be clear, I was joking about grinding wheat (or anything but coffee) in the dedicated coffee mills at any store. And just in case anyone thinks it is a good idea, it isn't, because the wheat would undoubtedly taste AWFUL after going through a coffee grinder. What might be a good idea is to try to convince whole foods (or other stores) to provide a dedicated grain grinder. They already have juicers, coffee grinders, and even nut butter machines, so why not a grain mill? --Mac |
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On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:13:24 +0000, Karen wrote:
> Mac wrote the following on 2/27/2005 12:54 AM: >> But I have a solution for you! If you want freshly milled wheat, go >> to Whole Foods, take about 5 lbs of wheat berries from the bin area, >> and bring them over to the coffee area. Then put the wheat berries in >> the store's coffee mill, and grind away! > > I know you are joking about this, but I hope no one gets any ideas. If > someone with celiac sprue grinds their coffee beens after someone has > been using the grinder to grind wheat they will get very, very sick when > they drink their coffee. In fact, I think I'll get my mother her own > grinder just in case someone is tempted to try this... > > Karen R. Karen, I'm very sorry. After all, with google and such, these posts do get archived for all to read for a long time. Sometimes I tend to forget that. On the plus side, coffee really is much better when it is made from freshly ground beans. So just to be clear, I was joking about grinding wheat (or anything but coffee) in the dedicated coffee mills at any store. And just in case anyone thinks it is a good idea, it isn't, because the wheat would undoubtedly taste AWFUL after going through a coffee grinder. What might be a good idea is to try to convince whole foods (or other stores) to provide a dedicated grain grinder. They already have juicers, coffee grinders, and even nut butter machines, so why not a grain mill? --Mac |
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Mac,
I finally made a loaf of french bread I am happy with (not sourdough yet) taste and texture wise. I have the same problem you have about the spreading. I was wondering how you solved the problem. Thanks. Vicki Mac wrote: > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:05:14 -0800, Dusty wrote: > > [snip] > > > As most of you know, I eschew the use of most of today's modern > > technological advances in my baking. But I'm looking at this issue from > > a health and nutrition point of view. I think there's a gain to be made > > there...but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I like whole wheat bread, > > but I'm not a fan of 100% WW--tends to be too dense for my liking. > > > > As an aside, does anybody know of someplace in the bay area (left coast, > > USA) where I might be able to purchase some freshly milled flour for > > testing, before I spring for a mill? I Googled but didn't come up with > > anything useful... > > > > > > TIA, > > Dusty > > I just got a hand-mill (retsel). I haven't really tried it out yet except > for a small test batch. It is a lot of work! > > But I have a solution for you! If you want freshly milled wheat, go to > Whole Foods, take about 5 lbs of wheat berries from the bin area, and > bring them over to the coffee area. Then put the wheat berries in the > store's coffee mill, and grind away! Be sure to let the first half pound > or so go onto the floor, as it will be contaminated with coffee flavor. If > anyone stares at you while you are doing this, just smile and say "Hi!" > > All kidding aside, how dense is your 100% WW bread? Maybe there is > something wrong with your starter. (Or maybe you just like very airy bread.) > > Here is a picture of one of my 100% WW sourdough loaves: > > http://uploads.savefile.com/users/uploads/816274150.jpg > > It is a little WIDE, as you can see, but since then I have learned how to > keep the loaves from spreading quite so much when they rise. And I could > always use a bread pan, too, as has been suggested by some. > > --Mac |
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Mac wrote:
>On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:13:24 +0000, Karen wrote: > > > >>Mac wrote the following on 2/27/2005 12:54 AM: >> >> >>>But I have a solution for you! If you want freshly milled wheat, go >>>to Whole Foods, take about 5 lbs of wheat berries from the bin area, >>>and bring them over to the coffee area. Then put the wheat berries in >>>the store's coffee mill, and grind away! >>> >>> >>I know you are joking about this, but I hope no one gets any ideas. If >>someone with celiac sprue grinds their coffee beens after someone has >>been using the grinder to grind wheat they will get very, very sick when >>they drink their coffee. In fact, I think I'll get my mother her own >>grinder just in case someone is tempted to try this... >> >> >> I'm happier when someone discusses religion around here than lunatic fringe dietary issues. Yes, there are people who have celiac/sprue, and it is a very real condition. However, since it typically takes years before someone with celiac/sprue develops their illness far enough to show symptoms, much less be diagnosed, I don't think that a small amount of wheat would be a problem, despite what the more militant members of the celiac/sprue community say. It's not an allergy. It's an intolerance that causes subtle, but significant digestive problems. A shot of wheat isn't likely to make them very sick. Of course, the vast majority of the people who have celiac/sprue are self-diagnosed, and probably don't have it any more than the majority of people who think they are hypo-glycemic actually have it. I have no idea why someone would willingly butcher their diet that much, in either case. Maybe they like the looks that they get from people when they announce, "I can't eat <wheat | gluten bearing grains | sugar>" mistaking the contempt in their fellow diners eyes for sympathy. (Yes, I have a great distaste for people who discuss what they don't like and/or can't eat at the dinner table. If it's an issue, ask the host or hostess before the meal. Far enough in advance that your host or hostess can accomodate you graciously or tell you to go to hell in private sparing you both embarassment. You don't have to discuss the violent trots you'll suffer if you eat whatever at the dinner table. It's rude.) My objection to Mac's humorously made suggestion was that it would waste grain, grain the merchant would have to pay for. And it would make both the flour, and subsequent coffee, taste pretty awful. >What might be a good idea is to try to convince whole foods (or other >stores) to provide a dedicated grain grinder. They already have juicers, >coffee grinders, and even nut butter machines, so why not a grain mill? > > It was my understanding that many Whole Foods Markets, and other stores, have grinders from Montanna Wheat as it is. However, there are still issues. Truthfully, there are reasons why millers typically discard 15% of the bran when they make whole wheat flour. It doesn't help the baker make better bread. In fact, it harms the handling characteristics of the flour. There was a discussion in the Bread Baker's Guild mailing list a while back about a miller who went from a stone grinding process to the micronizer process used in many inexpensive home mills. And the flour quality dropped appreciably. Enough so that the bakers stopped using his flour. I have owned a WhisperMill (which sounds like a jet taking off) and a NutriMill. Neither make flour that makes very good bread, unless you add stuff to it to make up for the deficiencies of the flour. Look at the recipes on the web sites that sell mills. All of them I've seen add significant quantities of wheat gluten to their breads. Without the gluten addition, you get bricks. They also add dough conditioners, which you really shouldn't need to make good bread. I DO like adding things other than flour, water, salt, and riser to bread. But to make it taste different. What's raisin bread without raisins? But I draw the line at adding these things to make the bread work. If the flour is good, you don't need to add milk powder, vitamin C, ginger, and other dough conditioners to make it work. Some breads call for milk, and that's OK. Some breads use ginger, and that's OK. But if you don't add these things and get bricks, either the recipe or the flour is bad, and the answer is not in wheat gluten, milk powder, etc. Either fix the recipe or get good flour. Mike Having played with them, my current feeling is, I prefer my KitchenAid grain mill, and that most of the time it will be used in the fairly coarse settings to produce accent grains, cracked wheat, cracked rye, and so on, not the bulk of the flour in the recipe. Mike |
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Mac wrote:
>On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:13:24 +0000, Karen wrote: > > > >>Mac wrote the following on 2/27/2005 12:54 AM: >> >> >>>But I have a solution for you! If you want freshly milled wheat, go >>>to Whole Foods, take about 5 lbs of wheat berries from the bin area, >>>and bring them over to the coffee area. Then put the wheat berries in >>>the store's coffee mill, and grind away! >>> >>> >>I know you are joking about this, but I hope no one gets any ideas. If >>someone with celiac sprue grinds their coffee beens after someone has >>been using the grinder to grind wheat they will get very, very sick when >>they drink their coffee. In fact, I think I'll get my mother her own >>grinder just in case someone is tempted to try this... >> >> >> I'm happier when someone discusses religion around here than lunatic fringe dietary issues. Yes, there are people who have celiac/sprue, and it is a very real condition. However, since it typically takes years before someone with celiac/sprue develops their illness far enough to show symptoms, much less be diagnosed, I don't think that a small amount of wheat would be a problem, despite what the more militant members of the celiac/sprue community say. It's not an allergy. It's an intolerance that causes subtle, but significant digestive problems. A shot of wheat isn't likely to make them very sick. Of course, the vast majority of the people who have celiac/sprue are self-diagnosed, and probably don't have it any more than the majority of people who think they are hypo-glycemic actually have it. I have no idea why someone would willingly butcher their diet that much, in either case. Maybe they like the looks that they get from people when they announce, "I can't eat <wheat | gluten bearing grains | sugar>" mistaking the contempt in their fellow diners eyes for sympathy. (Yes, I have a great distaste for people who discuss what they don't like and/or can't eat at the dinner table. If it's an issue, ask the host or hostess before the meal. Far enough in advance that your host or hostess can accomodate you graciously or tell you to go to hell in private sparing you both embarassment. You don't have to discuss the violent trots you'll suffer if you eat whatever at the dinner table. It's rude.) My objection to Mac's humorously made suggestion was that it would waste grain, grain the merchant would have to pay for. And it would make both the flour, and subsequent coffee, taste pretty awful. >What might be a good idea is to try to convince whole foods (or other >stores) to provide a dedicated grain grinder. They already have juicers, >coffee grinders, and even nut butter machines, so why not a grain mill? > > It was my understanding that many Whole Foods Markets, and other stores, have grinders from Montanna Wheat as it is. However, there are still issues. Truthfully, there are reasons why millers typically discard 15% of the bran when they make whole wheat flour. It doesn't help the baker make better bread. In fact, it harms the handling characteristics of the flour. There was a discussion in the Bread Baker's Guild mailing list a while back about a miller who went from a stone grinding process to the micronizer process used in many inexpensive home mills. And the flour quality dropped appreciably. Enough so that the bakers stopped using his flour. I have owned a WhisperMill (which sounds like a jet taking off) and a NutriMill. Neither make flour that makes very good bread, unless you add stuff to it to make up for the deficiencies of the flour. Look at the recipes on the web sites that sell mills. All of them I've seen add significant quantities of wheat gluten to their breads. Without the gluten addition, you get bricks. They also add dough conditioners, which you really shouldn't need to make good bread. I DO like adding things other than flour, water, salt, and riser to bread. But to make it taste different. What's raisin bread without raisins? But I draw the line at adding these things to make the bread work. If the flour is good, you don't need to add milk powder, vitamin C, ginger, and other dough conditioners to make it work. Some breads call for milk, and that's OK. Some breads use ginger, and that's OK. But if you don't add these things and get bricks, either the recipe or the flour is bad, and the answer is not in wheat gluten, milk powder, etc. Either fix the recipe or get good flour. Mike Having played with them, my current feeling is, I prefer my KitchenAid grain mill, and that most of the time it will be used in the fairly coarse settings to produce accent grains, cracked wheat, cracked rye, and so on, not the bulk of the flour in the recipe. Mike |
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On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:41:10 -0600, Will
> wrote: >On 2/27/05 12:01 PM, "Kenneth" > wrote: > >> The whole issue is temperature and time control. > > <snip: solid advice on how to improve results by calibrating time and >temperature...> > >One of the things that I learned belatedly about "bread spreading" is the >importance of gradually tensioning the "skin" of a dough before baking. This >means paying particular attention to fold technique during bulk rise and >precise attention to both the last fold after scaling and the final or >rounding fold. > >If you were to incorporate these elements into Kenneth's advice about time >and temperature logging it would probably help. The additional attention to >dough handling will also give you valuable feedback on tuning your hydration >level, a spreading factor, as well. > >Will Hi again, I strongly support Will's comments. Knowing how to form the loaf can make a very significant difference. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:38:54 -0800, victw wrote:
> Mac, > > I finally made a loaf of french bread I am happy with (not sourdough > yet) taste and texture wise. > > I have the same problem you have about the spreading. I was wondering > how you solved the problem. > > Thanks. > Vicki Well, I posted here a while back, and a lot of different ideas were put forward to solve the problem. I don't think I have it 100% beat, but I have seen some significant improvement. What I did is modify my kneading technique (I knead the bread by hand on a granite counter top) so that the skin of the dough touching the counter top gets tighter and tighter. This skin will eventually become the top of the loaf. The basic motion is to fold about 30% of the dough over, push down, lift the dough, rotate, fold 30 % again, etc. I make sure the dough doesn't stick to the counter by sprinkling just enough flour if necessary. I knead the same way for the first and second rise, but I suspect it is more important on the second kneading. When I am done kneading, I shape the dough into a ball where the side which was touching the counter during kneading becomes the top of the loaf. I hold the dough in both hands and gently coax it into a ball shape by pulling the surface tight and rotating. The bottom of the loaf may be just slightly untidy, but that is OK. Timing, as noted by others in this thread, is also important. The longer you let the dough sit, the more liquid it tends to become, in my experience. And if all else fails, you could always use a bread pan. ;-) Hope that helps! --Mac > Mac wrote: >> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:05:14 -0800, Dusty wrote: >> >> [snip] >> >> > As most of you know, I eschew the use of most of today's modern >> > technological advances in my baking. But I'm looking at this issue > from >> > a health and nutrition point of view. I think there's a gain to be > made >> > there...but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I like whole wheat > bread, >> > but I'm not a fan of 100% WW--tends to be too dense for my liking. >> > >> > As an aside, does anybody know of someplace in the bay area (left > coast, >> > USA) where I might be able to purchase some freshly milled flour > for >> > testing, before I spring for a mill? I Googled but didn't come up > with >> > anything useful... >> > >> > >> > TIA, >> > Dusty >> >> I just got a hand-mill (retsel). I haven't really tried it out yet > except >> for a small test batch. It is a lot of work! >> >> But I have a solution for you! If you want freshly milled wheat, go > to >> Whole Foods, take about 5 lbs of wheat berries from the bin area, and >> bring them over to the coffee area. Then put the wheat berries in the >> store's coffee mill, and grind away! Be sure to let the first half > pound >> or so go onto the floor, as it will be contaminated with coffee > flavor. If >> anyone stares at you while you are doing this, just smile and say > "Hi!" >> >> All kidding aside, how dense is your 100% WW bread? Maybe there is >> something wrong with your starter. (Or maybe you just like very airy > bread.) >> >> Here is a picture of one of my 100% WW sourdough loaves: >> >> http://uploads.savefile.com/users/uploads/816274150.jpg >> >> It is a little WIDE, as you can see, but since then I have learned > how to >> keep the loaves from spreading quite so much when they rise. And I > could >> always use a bread pan, too, as has been suggested by some. >> >> --Mac |
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On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:38:54 -0800, victw wrote:
> Mac, > > I finally made a loaf of french bread I am happy with (not sourdough > yet) taste and texture wise. > > I have the same problem you have about the spreading. I was wondering > how you solved the problem. > > Thanks. > Vicki Well, I posted here a while back, and a lot of different ideas were put forward to solve the problem. I don't think I have it 100% beat, but I have seen some significant improvement. What I did is modify my kneading technique (I knead the bread by hand on a granite counter top) so that the skin of the dough touching the counter top gets tighter and tighter. This skin will eventually become the top of the loaf. The basic motion is to fold about 30% of the dough over, push down, lift the dough, rotate, fold 30 % again, etc. I make sure the dough doesn't stick to the counter by sprinkling just enough flour if necessary. I knead the same way for the first and second rise, but I suspect it is more important on the second kneading. When I am done kneading, I shape the dough into a ball where the side which was touching the counter during kneading becomes the top of the loaf. I hold the dough in both hands and gently coax it into a ball shape by pulling the surface tight and rotating. The bottom of the loaf may be just slightly untidy, but that is OK. Timing, as noted by others in this thread, is also important. The longer you let the dough sit, the more liquid it tends to become, in my experience. And if all else fails, you could always use a bread pan. ;-) Hope that helps! --Mac > Mac wrote: >> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:05:14 -0800, Dusty wrote: >> >> [snip] >> >> > As most of you know, I eschew the use of most of today's modern >> > technological advances in my baking. But I'm looking at this issue > from >> > a health and nutrition point of view. I think there's a gain to be > made >> > there...but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I like whole wheat > bread, >> > but I'm not a fan of 100% WW--tends to be too dense for my liking. >> > >> > As an aside, does anybody know of someplace in the bay area (left > coast, >> > USA) where I might be able to purchase some freshly milled flour > for >> > testing, before I spring for a mill? I Googled but didn't come up > with >> > anything useful... >> > >> > >> > TIA, >> > Dusty >> >> I just got a hand-mill (retsel). I haven't really tried it out yet > except >> for a small test batch. It is a lot of work! >> >> But I have a solution for you! If you want freshly milled wheat, go > to >> Whole Foods, take about 5 lbs of wheat berries from the bin area, and >> bring them over to the coffee area. Then put the wheat berries in the >> store's coffee mill, and grind away! Be sure to let the first half > pound >> or so go onto the floor, as it will be contaminated with coffee > flavor. If >> anyone stares at you while you are doing this, just smile and say > "Hi!" >> >> All kidding aside, how dense is your 100% WW bread? Maybe there is >> something wrong with your starter. (Or maybe you just like very airy > bread.) >> >> Here is a picture of one of my 100% WW sourdough loaves: >> >> http://uploads.savefile.com/users/uploads/816274150.jpg >> >> It is a little WIDE, as you can see, but since then I have learned > how to >> keep the loaves from spreading quite so much when they rise. And I > could >> always use a bread pan, too, as has been suggested by some. >> >> --Mac |
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Mike Avery wrote:
> Mac wrote: > >> On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:13:24 +0000, Karen wrote: >> >> >> >>> Mac wrote the following on 2/27/2005 12:54 AM: >>> >>> >>>> But I have a solution for you! If you want freshly milled wheat, go >>>> to Whole Foods, take about 5 lbs of wheat berries from the bin area, >>>> and bring them over to the coffee area. Then put the wheat berries in >>>> the store's coffee mill, and grind away! >>>> >>> >>> I know you are joking about this, but I hope no one gets any ideas. >>> If someone with celiac sprue grinds their coffee beens after someone >>> has been using the grinder to grind wheat they will get very, very >>> sick when they drink their coffee. In fact, I think I'll get my >>> mother her own grinder just in case someone is tempted to try this... >>> >>> > > I'm happier when someone discusses religion around here than lunatic > fringe dietary issues. Yes, there are people who have celiac/sprue, and > it is a very real condition. However, since it typically takes years > before someone with celiac/sprue develops their illness far enough to > show symptoms, much less be diagnosed, I don't think that a small amount > of wheat would be a problem, despite what the more militant members of > the celiac/sprue community say. > It's not an allergy. It's an intolerance that causes subtle, but > significant digestive problems. A shot of wheat isn't likely to make > them very sick. > > Of course, the vast majority of the people who have celiac/sprue are > self-diagnosed, and probably don't have it any more than the majority of > people who think they are hypo-glycemic actually have it. I have no > idea why someone would willingly butcher their diet that much, in either > case. Maybe they like the looks that they get from people when they > announce, "I can't eat <wheat | gluten bearing grains | sugar>" > mistaking the contempt in their fellow diners eyes for sympathy. (Yes, > I have a great distaste for people who discuss what they don't like > and/or can't eat at the dinner table. If it's an issue, ask the host or > hostess before the meal. Far enough in advance that your host or > hostess can accomodate you graciously or tell you to go to hell in > private sparing you both embarassment. You don't have to discuss the > violent trots you'll suffer if you eat whatever at the dinner table. > It's rude.) > > My objection to Mac's humorously made suggestion was that it would waste > grain, grain the merchant would have to pay for. And it would make both > the flour, and subsequent coffee, taste pretty awful. > >> What might be a good idea is to try to convince whole foods (or other >> stores) to provide a dedicated grain grinder. They already have juicers, >> coffee grinders, and even nut butter machines, so why not a grain mill? >> >> > It was my understanding that many Whole Foods Markets, and other stores, > have grinders from Montanna Wheat as it is. > > However, there are still issues. > > Truthfully, there are reasons why millers typically discard 15% of the > bran when they make whole wheat flour. It doesn't help the baker make > better bread. In fact, it harms the handling characteristics of the > flour. There was a discussion in the Bread Baker's Guild mailing list a > while back about a miller who went from a stone grinding process to the > micronizer process used in many inexpensive home mills. And the flour > quality dropped appreciably. Enough so that the bakers stopped using > his flour. > > I have owned a WhisperMill (which sounds like a jet taking off) and a > NutriMill. Neither make flour that makes very good bread, unless you > add stuff to it to make up for the deficiencies of the flour. Look at > the recipes on the web sites that sell mills. All of them I've seen add > significant quantities of wheat gluten to their breads. Without the > gluten addition, you get bricks. They also add dough conditioners, > which you really shouldn't need to make good bread. I DO like adding > things other than flour, water, salt, and riser to bread. But to make > it taste different. What's raisin bread without raisins? > But I draw the line at adding these things to make the bread work. If > the flour is good, you don't need to add milk powder, vitamin C, ginger, > and other dough conditioners to make it work. Some breads call for > milk, and that's OK. Some breads use ginger, and that's OK. But if you > don't add these things and get bricks, either the recipe or the flour is > bad, and the answer is not in wheat gluten, milk powder, etc. Either > fix the recipe or get good flour. > > Mike > > > Having played with them, my current feeling is, I prefer my KitchenAid > grain mill, and that most of the time it will be used in the fairly > coarse settings to produce accent grains, cracked wheat, cracked rye, > and so on, not the bulk of the flour in the recipe. > > Mike > I don't have gluten sensitive enteropathy but do know something about it. The ingestion of gluten does permanent damage to the gut, so "some" now isn't a very smart idea. Diagnosis needs to be made properly and is easier than it used to be. Ellen |
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Hi Dusty; Check the Wheat Montana website for a retail location near
you. I notice 2 in northern California but they may be too far to drive unless you want to go on a short road trip. Their retail outlets will grind the grain for you in small (5 or 10 pound) quantities. Your alternative is to order directly from Wheat Montana and pay the shipping costs. http://www.sba.gov/mt/wheatmontana.html Dusty wrote: > I have a question for those of you with home mills, do any of them permit > you to separate the flour? By that I mean; can I "dial-in" that I want > "white flour", or is it always--by definition--"whole grain"? > > Also, is the difference between bread made with freshly milled flour really > noticeable? Or is it more a matter of: "I have a my own flour mill next to > my 6-digit precision scale...nah, ni, na, ni, nahnaaa?" > > As most of you know, I eschew the use of most of today's modern > technological advances in my baking. But I'm looking at this issue from a > health and nutrition point of view. I think there's a gain to be made > there...but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I like whole wheat bread, but > I'm not a fan of 100% WW--tends to be too dense for my liking. > > As an aside, does anybody know of someplace in the bay area (left coast, > USA) where I might be able to purchase some freshly milled flour for > testing, before I spring for a mill? I Googled but didn't come up with > anything useful... > > > TIA, > Dusty -- ~)< Love & Peace Ed B. "I believe the world is beautiful and that poetry, like bread, is for everyone." -Roque Dalton "Like You" |
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Dusty wrote:
>I have a question for those of you with home mills, do any of them permit >you to separate the flour? By that I mean; can I "dial-in" that I want >"white flour", or is it always--by definition--"whole grain"? > >Also, is the difference between bread made with freshly milled flour really >noticeable? Or is it more a matter of: "I have a my own flour mill next to >my 6-digit precision scale...nah, ni, na, ni, nahnaaa?" > >As most of you know, I eschew the use of most of today's modern >technological advances in my baking. But I'm looking at this issue from a >health and nutrition point of view. I think there's a gain to be made >there...but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I like whole wheat bread, but >I'm not a fan of 100% WW--tends to be too dense for my liking. > >As an aside, does anybody know of someplace in the bay area (left coast, >USA) where I might be able to purchase some freshly milled flour for >testing, before I spring for a mill? I Googled but didn't come up with >anything useful... > > >TIA, >Dusty > > Check out some of the local bakeries such as "Harvest Mill", Panetta, etc and I am sure that they will sell you just about any kind of flour that you want. I get my wheat berries from a local bakery in a 40 lb bag and do my own milling. |
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>Also, is the difference between bread made with freshly milled flour
really >noticeable? If its in small quantities you may not notice it....but if you make a large number of bread there is a noticeable difference even if you are using natural sourdough starter as leavening agent( and free from any additives). >As most of you know, I eschew the use of most of today's modern >technological advances in my baking. But I'm looking at this issue from a >health and nutrition point of view. I think there's a gain to be made >there. With regards to flour milling: or grinding your own wheat as a whole, is not much difference by those stone ground flour mills who did the same thing.They use the same principle but in different scale and equipment. I think what concerns you is the treatment of flour with additives in order to improve its colour and baking performance and that is understandable. But if the flour is sold as untreated and freshly milled how does it differ in wholesomeness as the home milled one? Regarding the separation of white flour from the rest of the milled grain I have not seen yet a home equipment that is of equivalent performance as the small scale / pilot plant scale laboratory flour mill such as the one made by Buhler that I used to 'play' with( previously some 20 years back) in the flour mills quality control / baking laboratory. I can grind 10 kg of wheat (straight run and the flour yield ratio( extraction rate) approximates the production scale equipment by being able to produce 7.0-8.0 kg of white flour out of that quantity of wheat . The baking performance and quality is similar as the production scale product made at the same flour extraction rate and time Roy |
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>Help me out here, Roy. How does the quantity of bread affect the ">differences"? Since I eat bread a slice at a time, how would 200 uneaten >loaves laying around change the flavor for me...? (:-o)! Hmmn... eating just a slice at a time?.... that sounds fair...... that you were unable to discriminate the difference in baking properties as freshy made flour and the naturally aged one..One loaf of bread stays some time in your cupboard before its totally consumerd and I expect that you are making only a loaf or two of bread at a time. >The reason I'm looking into grinding my own grain, is that I recently ran >across several studies that outlined how quickly flour looses some of it's >nutritional value via oxidation and time. The volatile organics and such >quickly disappear, while the carbs hold fast. Volatile organics?..... if you mean the B- vitamins they are supposed to have higher boiling points and so should remain in flour for some time.. If you think about the vitamin C.... yes that is not a stable vitamin.... but flour is never a good source of ascorbic acid anyway.....Would you mind if I ask what particular volatile organics are you concerned off.? IMO its more about enzymatic degradation that is accelerated by elevated temperature storage.( specially on freshly milled whole meal flour stored in ambient during summer months).. If you mean the carotenoid pigments that will take also some time to be oxidized by the natural lipoxygenase of the flour >I was just looking for a way >to try what our 'grandcestors' probably did by grinding and using flour more >quickly than the way it's done today. And hopefully finding a >flavor/texture/content boost at the same time... In my experience grinding wheat in the laboratory setting and baking bread out of its for quality control evaluation I do not see a difference in taste and flavor from whole meal flour milled whether its one day or two weeks old. Flavor tends to change and become noticeable after the milled grain is stored for more than a month. That is essentially true with whole grain flour stored in ambient. But if the freshly milled wholemeal flour is stored for a few monthts refrigerated or much better frozen . I did not notice much flavor and taste difference..Meanwhile white flour is more stable than wholemeal in this area and can withstand longer storage than the whole grain flours. i did notice difference from floourmilled from grains stored at different periods, and milled into flour. A freshly harvested grain has a nuttier flavor than a stored grain which seems to lose some of it upon storage maybe due to autooxidation of the flour lipids by the lipase enzyme present within the grain. Maybe that is what your grandcestors had noticed and not the freshly milled grain itself. In the old days they do not have the agricutlural efficiency to harvest such huge bulk of wheat that is done to day that its has to be stored for a long time before being every grain is milled into flour . Besides if you store your own home grown wheat that is not likely to stay for years in the granary before being milled into flour. BTW, freshly milled flour is any grist milled just a day or two. >Also, given a recent posters comment about making cornbread with freshly >milled corn (could have been on a different NG), it would seem to make sense >that the same characteristics would apply to flour. It is more noticeable in corn due its more propensity for flavor change than wheat. A kernel or corn has different structural difference with regards to he location of its husk, germ and endosperm than the wheat kernel;. where in the latter these components are more protected. Just take note at sweet corn ; once its harvested and compare the eating quality and sweetness from a freshly harvested and cooked corn with the stored one. You will notice some difference. Meaning that corn is more susceptible to flavor change that wheat. >Now, is this description from your "lab mill", or your home mill? Also, is >that difference in weight the part that's not used (husk, hull, bran)? (as >opposed to simple waste) Yes 20-30 % is the husk or brain on other outer portionso f the wheat kernel. Meaning the grinding of wheat is more about removing the husky portion to release the endosperm which is the source of the white flour. If have to mill it into whole meal nothing is wasted. > Thanks for your comments..... I always appreciate getting >the straight poop, based upon direct experience... No worries Dusty....I am just trying to relate my almost forgotten experience of flour milling in laboratory scale and how it compare with your home mill. in regards to flour quality. Roy |
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Dusty wrote:
> ... I was just looking for a way to try what our 'grandcestors' > probably did by grinding and using flour more quickly than the way > it's done today. Ah, you mean like growing one crop of wheat a year, grinding and storing it for until the next crop is ready? Or shipping it by Conestoga wagon for a few months to get to other parts of the country? (there should be smileys up above) My point is, is that distance in time and nostalgia makes the bad old good old days a bit hazy and there's other items of infrastructure to consider when waxing romantic over the 'better' way to do things. Sometimes we make assumptions about the way people lived and it was nothing like. B/ |
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>Dusty BTW, Dusty I almost forgot about your original question which you posted above. And I try to explain how its done in commercial practice..and hoping you have an elementary idea how you can adapt the principle with your household grinder. >I have a question for those of you with home mills, do any of them permit >you to separate the flour? By that I mean; can I "dial-in" that I want >"white flour", or is it always--by definition--"whole grain"? In actual flour milling ; whether in laboratory pilot plant scale or production scale. If we had to mill for white flour we had to ensure that the outer coat of wheat is toughened by adding sufficient water to reach a grain moisture of around 15%. This value can be determined by getting first the initial moisture of the grain and then from there calculating the amount of water needed to be added to reach the target moisture before the grain is subjected to milling.The water is added and allowed to soak for at least 24 hours before its transported to the milling rolls. A dry wheat that has a moisture of 13 % or less will tend to ground the endosperm and the fibrous branny matter into powder and will be difficult to segregate the white flour from the offal Grinding wheat with roller mill is different from stone grinding with specialist mills for such flours. I think the latter the milling principle is just similar to home mills, just reducing the grain to fine particle size..I am much more familiar with the roller type mills than the stone ground ones. Having watched the mill operators run the production scale milling for some time I am familiar how the wheat is gradually ground and made into the flour we see in bags and bulk transport.. But not before I told them what to expect from the yield and what is the expected wheat grain moisture( from that particular wheat have to be maintained) to get the maximum yield from a grain stock in the silo. In commercial grinding for white flour the grinding rolls are corrugated at different level. It is the same thing with the Buhler experimental flour mill I used previously.The grinding rolls run with a speed differential to ensure that once the grain is broken the husk is actually scraped off from the endosperm.That occurs in the so called break rolls. BTW the equipment I mentioned has a series of breaking rolls for breaking and flaking the wheat kernel and the reduction rolls which pulverize the endosperm granules or semolina into flour.As the wheat particles are subjected to series of grinding and sifiting the rolls surface corrugation becomes finer that its literally a smooth roll at the end of the reduction process. So the bran comes out from the sifter as flakes( together with the wheat germ) not in powder form by being toughened with water as I mentioned in the tempering process. I do not see such sort of abrading or scratching effect on the home grinder which is more about crushing the grain into fine particle size. So whether you had the rotary sifter that Will has mentioned , the question is would it be able to separate the flour from the chaff effectively? In addition applying tempering( or the adjusting of grain moisture before milling) would be too complex thing to do with the hobbyist miller. As you do not have the moisture measuring equipment that commercial flour mills have..Nor understand the math involved in its computation. Therefore the likely method is just to sift the broken kernels each time its passed to the grinder to separate the flour from the coarser particles successively after each grinding step. The average yield of white flour from a quantity of wheat is 70% which varies with the quality of wheat. Soft wheat tends to have lesser yield of white flour than stronger wheat. Therefore range of white flour yield will then be from 60-80% depending on wheat quality and kernel size. In addition Bigger kernels tends to yield more white flour than smaller kernels Roy |
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BTW the tempering process( where a calculated amount of water is added
to the grain and allowed to soak for several hours in the silo) is more about toughening the endosperm as well as the bran ,making it less brittle in the breaking rolls and prevent premature pulverization. Hence will result in flakes and coarser granules that is best suited for gradual reduction to the desired particle sizea and ensure a maximum flour yield per given weight of grain. Roy |
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Dusty wrote:
> Brian Mailman wrote: > >>>... I was just looking for a way to try what our 'grandcestors' >>>probably did by grinding and using flour more quickly than the way >>>it's done today. >> >>Ah, you mean like growing one crop of wheat a year, grinding and >>storing it for until the next crop is ready? Or shipping it by >>Conestoga wagon for a few months to get to other parts of the country? >> >>(there should be smileys up above) >> >>My point is, is that distance in time and nostalgia makes the bad old >>good old days a bit hazy and there's other items of infrastructure to >>consider when waxing romantic over the 'better' way to do things. >>Sometimes we make assumptions about the way people lived and it was >>nothing like. > > No. Methinks you missed my point--or, probably more accurately--I didn't > make it well. While the nostalgia of a Conestoga borne lifestyle wasn't > what I was after, the recapture of reduced food processing was. > > Modern technology gives us many things. On balance I'd say that we live > better, longer; and lives that are a great deal easier with our conveniences > than did our grandcesters without. The power of technology also applies to > the foods we eat. It'll take some convincing to get me to accept that a > highly processed grain of wheat is better for me than one with minimal or no > processing. I'd prefer to eat the whole grain. But the extra roughage > doesn't do wonderful things for my dough. So, given that, if I must pay a > price for the rough texture, I was hoping to at least reap a bit of reward > in the nutrition department. > > I was just looking to see if I can improve what I eat by getting it as > freshly milled as possible. As far as thinking about the milling process > and how it might be scaled down to "our" size, that's one of the fun things > I can do. I've built endless streams of specialized machines and gadgets, > both for work and for fun. But never a flour mill. I did, however, once > build a device that separated different grades of solids from flowing, > pressurized liquids. I'm betting that some form of air-fluffing/lofting, > electrostatic charging, and centrifugal separation would be at the heart of > it (think gaseous diffusion centrifuges, as in nuclear isotopes...(:-o)!). > If nothing else, I can buy bags of WW flour for near nothing for practice. > If I can just reduce the "whole" part of the wheat to half of what it is--as > compared to regular "white" flour, I'd be a very happy camper! > > > Dusty Would something really low tech like sifting and adding half back work? Ellen |
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ellen wickberg wrote:
.... > Would something really low tech like sifting and adding half back > work? Ellen Donno. Never tried it. OTOH; I can't recollect ever having run across a set of screens fine enough for that task. If yes, then that sure would be a cleaner, easier, faster solution than my trying to invent some gadget to do that for me (but probably nowhere near as much fun (:-o)!). Roy? Any ideas or hints? Dusty -- Remove STORE to reply |
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<<One of the things that I learned belatedly about "bread spreading" is
the importance of gradually tensioning the "skin" of a dough before baking. This means paying particular attention to fold technique during bulk rise and precise attention to both the last fold after scaling and the final or rounding fold.>> I showed my wife Mac's photo to show her I wasn't the only one who sometimes gets "flat" 100% ww loaves. (She asked why there is always a ruler in the kornography, "Is it like lfisherman?".... but that's another story.) I agree with you, Will, that the "skin" is important. I would add to what you said, 1) try to keep the original skin from the first ferment in place through all the subsequent foldings; 2) be careful during stretching and folding to not actually rip the skin (i.e. don't stretch too far before you fold). Folding by itself adds considerable "structure" to the loaf and increases rise. I find baking from a cold oven also increases rise, but I don't see anyone else saying that here so maybe I'm wrong. |
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<<One of the things that I learned belatedly about "bread spreading" is
the importance of gradually tensioning the "skin" of a dough before baking. This means paying particular attention to fold technique during bulk rise and precise attention to both the last fold after scaling and the final or rounding fold.>> I showed my wife Mac's photo to show her I wasn't the only one who sometimes gets "flat" 100% ww loaves. (She asked why there is always a ruler in the kornography, "Is it like lfisherman?".... but that's another story.) I agree with you, Will, that the "skin" is important. I would add to what you said, 1) try to keep the original skin from the first ferment in place through all the subsequent foldings; 2) be careful during stretching and folding to not actually rip the skin (i.e. don't stretch too far before you fold). Folding by itself adds considerable "structure" to the loaf and increases rise. I find baking from a cold oven also increases rise, but I don't see anyone else saying that here so maybe I'm wrong. |
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Dusty wrote:
> ellen wickberg wrote: > ... > >>Would something really low tech like sifting and adding half back >>work? Ellen > > Donno. Never tried it. > > OTOH; I can't recollect ever having run across a set of screens fine enough > for that task. I have - on the barn attic of my grand parents, a whole set of sieves, the finest was for flour, so I was told. So, maybe some antique store may be a source or make it yourself. A while ago you asked about the advantage, if any of using freshly ground flour. There is a person who wrote a book: http://www.dr-schnitzer.de/whole-grain-baking.htm in it he writes in a section "Why freshly milled?" .... after 6 weeks of storage, full grain flours are as worthless (health wise) as patent flour (Auszugsmehl). .... immediately after milling, oxidation is most active because most oxidizeable vital materials are present. .... consequently.. possibly without loosing any time to prepare dough with the freshly milled flour and .. with multi stage doughs, mill fresh for every stage. He suggests a test to find out how long after milling the fresh aromatic smell is still detectable and states it will last two hours. > If yes, then that sure would be a cleaner, easier, faster > solution than my trying to invent some gadget to do that for me (but > probably nowhere near as much fun (:-o)!). Not sure, if a sieve will help you. You can mill very fine flour from whole grains, but then everything is fine - bran as well, so what is the sieve gonna do? I am sure you will find some way to peel the bran off the kernels and then mill it. Maybe with a tumbler? Good luck! Samartha |
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Jonathan Kandell wrote:
> <<One of the things that I learned belatedly about "bread spreading" > is the importance of gradually tensioning the "skin" of a dough before > baking. This means paying particular attention to fold technique Donno 'bout that ... .... > I showed my wife Mac's photo to show her I wasn't the only one who > sometimes gets "flat" 100% ww loaves. (She asked why there is always > a ruler in the kornography, "Is it like lfisherman?".... but that's > another story.) I never met her (your wife), but like her already...(:-o)! .... > stretch too far before you fold). Folding by itself adds > considerable "structure" to the loaf and increases rise. I find > baking from a cold oven also increases rise, but I don't see anyone > else saying that here so maybe I'm wrong. I'll stand up with you and say that. And I suspect that Dick would agree as well (Hey! We curmudgeons have to stick together!). OTOH; the preheat for at least 48 hours crowd, won't! ((:-o)!) Regards Jonathan, Dusty -- Remove STORE to reply |
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Joe Umstead wrote:
> Samartha Deva wrote: > > >>Dusty wrote: >> >>>ellen wickberg wrote: >> >>There is a person who wrote a book: >> >>http://www.dr-schnitzer.de/whole-grain-baking.htm >> .... > > Thanks Samartha, > (1) so is the book a good read? Well, from a health viewpoint, it's definitely very interesting and kind of an eye opener. He talks about a "20 year rule" where it takes 20 years for a population going to refined foods (flour, sugar) to develop major problems health-wise (obesity, heart- intestinal disease, etc.). > (2) Does he use yeast or is he a sourdough person? 14 recipes, two with sourdough. He has 3-stage starter growing in his book book for the sourdough recipes. With the recipes, all the ingredients, nuts and seeds are freshly ground. > (3) Would you recommend the book? If you are health oriented with bread and don't mind paying the price, I'd say yes. > (4) Frome the web page I see he use Sea Salt, so is he a health nut? > I thought regalter salt was sea salt 10,000.s years ago. He talks about that - with rock salt in mines (ocean sediments) apparently, the fallout was that the less soluble components are coming at the bottom, falling out first and the lighter on top. So, for salt to be consumed, only the pure NaCl, somewhere in the middle is used. Whereas with the sea salt, all the components are there. Guess you get more minerals with the sea salt as compared to the refined salt from mines. Samartha PS.: Kenneth wrote: > Hi Joe, > > Of course you are correct... > > In this regard, I have been amused by the fact that the > oceans have been used as sewers for those many years. > Perhaps that is the attraction of "sea salt" so popular > today... I can't understand what you mean - could you please explain your viewpoint with 10,000s years sewer usage of oceans and the connection between "sea salt" attraction, sewer, popularity and your amusement. I'd like to get amused as well. Thanks, S. |
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On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 09:03:53 -0700, Samartha Deva
> wrote: > >PS.: Kenneth wrote: > >> Hi Joe, >> >> Of course you are correct... >> >> In this regard, I have been amused by the fact that the >> oceans have been used as sewers for those many years. >> Perhaps that is the attraction of "sea salt" so popular >> today... > >I can't understand what you mean - could you please explain your >viewpoint with 10,000s years sewer usage of oceans and the connection >between "sea salt" attraction, sewer, popularity and your amusement. > >I'd like to get amused as well. > >Thanks, > >S. > > > Hi, Certainly... It is my understanding that "mined" salt comes from deposits that were formerly seas. There is no doubt that the oceans are grossly polluted and have been since the dawn of the human experience. As a result, it seems funny to me that so many folks concerned with health and nutrition have latched onto "sea salt" as somehow superior to "mined salt." I believe that they have it backwards. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:42:07 -0800, "Dusty"
> wrote: >Not at all true. Have the seas been "bettered" by "the human experience"? >No, of course not. And we need to continue doing better. But it's always >amusing when one recoils in horror from humans "grossly" polluting the >oceans <><SNIP><> Hi Dusty, Why would you suppose we are discouraged from eating fish such as tuna? As I assume you know, it is because of their dangerously high levels of mercury. Are you under the impression that the mercury problem was caused by whales? All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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"Dusty" > wrote in message
... > The iodine (potassium iodate--if I recall my high-school chemistry > correctly) added to regular salt... You may want to check your high school chemistry notes. It is potassium iodide (KI), not potassium iodate (KIO3), that is commonly added to table salt. Potassium iodate is an oxidizing agent, not something I would want to be ingesting. - Steve Brandt |
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Kenneth wrote:
> Hi Dusty, > > Why would you suppose we are discouraged from eating fish > such as tuna? As I assume you know, it is because of their > dangerously high levels of mercury. Interesting analogy - did not know that salt could be part of a food chain. So - the salt ions are having sex, the young one's eat the mercury polluted stuff when they grow up, store it somehow so it can drop out at the salt evaporation patch when they die. Makes total sense - nowadays, with creationism everything is possible; lots of wonders and surprises. S. |
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Kenneth wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 10:42:07 -0800, "Dusty" > > wrote: > >> Not at all true. Have the seas been "bettered" by "the human >> experience"? No, of course not. And we need to continue doing >> better. But it's always amusing when one recoils in horror from >> humans "grossly" polluting the oceans .... > Hi Dusty, > > Why would you suppose we are discouraged from eating fish > such as tuna? As I assume you know, it is because of their > dangerously high levels of mercury. > > Are you under the impression that the mercury problem was > caused by whales? Hi Kenneth, No. I can't blame the whales for that, just taking a dump. And trust me, BTDT; swimming under a couple of 'em when the urge hit...(:-o)! The mercury found in *ocean* fish, is in the form of "methylmercury." It's a has a variety of sources, far and away the greatest is naturally derived. Here, in California, there's, "Gold in them thar hills!" And were gold is found, so is cinnabar (a form of mercury ore). Erosion has been going on for some time on this ball of dirt & rock--predating humans by a good bit. Trailing by a huge margin is a secondary form of mercury, generated in large part by coal burning power-plants. Aerosolized, it's not particularly harmful (but not good for you either!). But that form doesn't seem to be able to find it's way into the *ocean* water and fish. Lakes are another problem, however. Look, Kenneth, this is a vast subject near and dear to my heart, but wa-a-ay off topic here. We can take this up off-list if you like. I'd like to hear what you think about these and other related issues... Later all, Dusty -- Remove STORE to reply |
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Yes, Steve is right its potassium iodide and not iodate....Eventhough it has a different substance but its sitll legally used in food processig...., potassium iodate is used in the USA in industrial bread producttion. It has a faster action on the dough if compared to potassium bromate and its reaction end product is potassium iodide. Sounds better than potassium bromide. as KI is present in iodized salt Roy |
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Dusty wrote:
> Brian Mailman wrote: >> Dusty wrote: >> >>> When I stopped using "regular" salt and turned to either a Kosher >>> (it's non-iodized by decree) >> >> Cite? > No cite. I just read the label looking for (the lack of) iodine. Didn't > find it, so I bought it. Same thing for using "sea salt". Ah, OK. I thought, in apposition to the capital-k 'kosher' you were speaking of some sort of halachic (hah-LA-khhic, biblical) 'decree.' > ... But I found that the "Kosher" salt too chunky to use in my salt shakers. Since > we all liked the (iodine free) taste, I added "sea salt" to my cupboard, for > the shakers. That's an easy one to solve... we put it (sea salt) in pepper grinders for table use. It has the added advantage of needing less to season, if needed, and we're on lower-sodium diets. > Good, enlightening article on salt. Thanks for posting it.  B/ |
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Brian Mailman wrote:
> > "Kosher" salt isn't salt that's especially kosher, or is one keeps > kosher one needs to use that particular type--it's actually salt used > in preparing meats and chicken for co. That is, its large grains > help in the adsorption of blood from meats and chicken. > > http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20030310.html for a primer on it. > The last time I looked at a box of Morton's Kosher salt, it had been certified as "Kosher for Passover" by one of the certification agencies. (The circle with a "U" in it.) A quick look at askmoses.com says, "What is "kosher" salt? And why is it more kosher than other salts? <http://www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=139&o=43948> All (pure) salt is kosher. In order for meat or poultry to be kosher it must be salted (or roasted) to remove all its blood. Thick salt is used in this process, for thin salt would dissolve before it could remove the blood. Therefore, thick salt is called Kosher(ing) Salt." I suspect there are two issues here. That the salt has been certified as Kosher, which Morton's has, indicates that the processing is of an acceptable level of cleanliness and purity to satisfy the certification agency. That is, the salt is pure salt. (Though Morton's does contain an agent to help it flow better. Evidently this is OK.) The salt is of a type used for koshering, that is, the ritual purification of meat by insuring that all blood has been removed from the meat. Are all koshering salts Kosher? Not being Jewish and not keeping that up on the matter, I don't know, but I suspect that some of the salts labelled "Kosher" may not be certified as Kosher. Mike .. |
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As was reinforced this weekend, neither hot nor cold oven don't make no
difference when you've let the dough proof too long. Yesterday's Borodinsky rye came out of the collander the perfect shape... but with the structural strength of a bubble. Needless to say it ended up flat like that photo of Mac's. (But, tasting great as always. It's sure easy to "mess up" when "failure" tastes so good.) Dusty wrote: > That was in that > instance, in others the differences may not have been that dramatic, but the > second loaf is *always* smaller.[...] > Look, I'm not on a crusade to change how folks bake their bread, I could > care less. If it works the way you do it for yourself, great! But when I > hear such methods (pre-heating) touted as the "best" or the "only way" to > bake, I'm going to chime in. It ain't! |
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As was reinforced this weekend, neither hot nor cold oven don't make no
difference when you've let the dough proof too long. Yesterday's Borodinsky rye came out of the collander the perfect shape... but with the structural strength of a bubble. Needless to say it ended up flat like that photo of Mac's. (But, tasting great as always. It's sure easy to "mess up" when "failure" tastes so good.) Dusty wrote: > That was in that > instance, in others the differences may not have been that dramatic, but the > second loaf is *always* smaller.[...] > Look, I'm not on a crusade to change how folks bake their bread, I could > care less. If it works the way you do it for yourself, great! But when I > hear such methods (pre-heating) touted as the "best" or the "only way" to > bake, I'm going to chime in. It ain't! |
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