I ordered the Russian culture from Sourdoughs International a couple of
weeks ago. Following their instructions for activation, I fed it and
put it in a container in an 80 degree environment. At first activity,
I noticed a pinkish area on the top of the foam, and there was a very
unpleasant smell from the starter - the best way I can think to
describe it is a boogery, rotten artificial butter flavor smell. I
spooned out the pink part and basically washed the starter, using about
a tablespoon of the active culture to a cup of water and ~1.5 cups of
flour. The first couple of feeds after the wash produced just about no
activity. After 3 cycles, it finally started acting normally and had
that nice yeasty, beery smell that I expected. This is the same sort
of thing that I saw when I originally cultivated my own starter.

Now I'm rising some dough using the starter and it's acting very slow.
It's been about 6 hours now and not doubled yet. The sponge took over
3 hours to double this afternoon. From what I have read, the Russian
culture is known for being very quick. I'm wondering if the dried
culture that I received was contaminated (I don't think it was my
stuff; I used a clean bowl & spatula and bottled water) and basically
died off, and what I've got now is something that I cultivated myself.

"D. Cook" > wrote in message=20
. com...

> ... I'm wondering if the dried culture that I received was =
contaminated=20
> and basically died off, and what I've got now is something that I =
cultivated=20
> myself.

A hardy, fresh, dry start, like Carl's, for instances, comes up like
gangbusters, typically, warm, in 24 hours or less.

SDI, according to what they told us years ago, refreshes their =
fridge-kept
cultures semiannually, presumably at the time that starts are prepared. =

Instructions I got with each of two starts from them (years ago) said to =

keep feeding for five days before giving up (which I did). I guess mine
were older, when shipped, than starts that reportedly revived OK for=20
others.

In five days, there is plenty of time to pick up a contaminant or an
unexpected strain of wild yeast. In six months, there is plenty of time
for the microorganisms in a dry start to die off.

> (I don't think it was my stuff; I used a clean bowl & spatula and =
bottled=20
> water)

That is hardly sterile technique!

Did you sniff? Oh, yes, you reported a "boogery" smell. Sniffing is an =

extraordinary example of unsterile technique.

--
DickA

On 2/3/05 9:37 AM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

<snip>

> SDI, according to what they told us years ago, refreshes their fridge-kept
> cultures semiannually...

Dick,

I'm getting ready to retire some older cultures. They've been good ones so I
don't want to kill them off. Would you mind posting some links to the Carl's
technique.

Thanks,

Will

"Will" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.48.1107447212.263.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com...
> Would you mind posting some links to the Carl's
> technique.

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/canifree...mystarter.html

On 2/3/05 11:53 AM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

>
> "Will" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.48.1107447212.263.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com...
>> Would you mind posting some links to the Carl's
>> technique.
>
> http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/canifree...mystarter.html

Thanks. It seems pretty straight-forward.

Will

In article >,
Dick Adams > wrote:

> In five days, there is plenty of time to pick up a contaminant or an
> unexpected strain of wild yeast. In six months, there is plenty of time
> for the microorganisms in a dry start to die off.

Yeah. I'm gonna send my SASE to Carl's Friends tomorrow. I'll
consider this a $10 lesson.

> That is hardly sterile technique!

Hey man, if my starter can't stay happy in less-than-sterile conditions
then it definitely doesn't belong in my house with two little kids, two
fuzzy cats, and two slobbery dogs!

> Did you sniff? Oh, yes, you reported a "boogery" smell. Sniffing is an
> extraordinary example of unsterile technique.

And I promise that the boogery smell was there _before_ I got my nose
close.

D. Cook Feb 3, 4:26 pm wryly witnessed:

> Hey man, if my starter can't stay happy in less-than-sterile
> conditions then it definitely doesn't belong in my house with
> two little kids, two fuzzy cats, and two slobbery dogs!


Did you try to get a fresh start from SDI? Used to be Ed Wood would
e-mail you himself prepared to detail all the "mistakes" you had made
with handling his culture, and why you weren't fit to receive a
re-shipment. In my mind this entertainment value rivals tickets to the
big football match! Atmospheric dog-slobber might seem to put you on
shaky ground, but what have you to lose? Likely, too, a member here
could send you a dried start of the Russian starter, taking for granted
that indeed someone has truly re-started Dr. Wood's actual culture.

--Lisse

In article .com>,
> wrote:

> Did you try to get a fresh start from SDI? Used to be Ed Wood would
> e-mail you himself prepared to detail all the "mistakes" you had made
> with handling his culture, and why you weren't fit to receive a
> re-shipment. In my mind this entertainment value rivals tickets to the
> big football match! Atmospheric dog-slobber might seem to put you on
> shaky ground, but what have you to lose? Likely, too, a member here
> could send you a dried start of the Russian starter, taking for granted
> that indeed someone has truly re-started Dr. Wood's actual culture.

Ewwwwwwwww, I had no idea! Why didn't anyone stop me from ordering??

I didn't have any trouble with SDI's culture (San Francisco, many years
ago). And I didn't sterilize anything. Just washed the container and wooden
spatula with hot water. And I have a classic San Francisco sourdough starter
that makes wonderful sourdough bread every 3 or 4 weeks. It's easy to malign
other folks and their way of doing things. Lisse, I'm surprised at your
post. although I'm not surprised at all at Adams' post. That's pretty
typical.

Sourdough isn't rocket science, you know. And most cultures are pretty
forgiving. Carl's is a wonderful culture (I have had one for many years),
but so is my SDI San Francisco. I maintain them both and use them for
different types of bread. Now watch the scorchers coming back! :>))

"D. Cook" > wrote in message
. com...
> In article .com>,
> > wrote:
>
>> Did you try to get a fresh start from SDI? Used to be Ed Wood would
>> e-mail you himself prepared to detail all the "mistakes" you had made
>> with handling his culture, and why you weren't fit to receive a
>> re-shipment. In my mind this entertainment value rivals tickets to the
>> big football match! Atmospheric dog-slobber might seem to put you on
>> shaky ground, but what have you to lose? Likely, too, a member here
>> could send you a dried start of the Russian starter, taking for granted
>> that indeed someone has truly re-started Dr. Wood's actual culture.
>
> Ewwwwwwwww, I had no idea! Why didn't anyone stop me from ordering??

"Pawnee" > in message =
said of my post =


> ... I'm not surprised at all at Adams' post. That's pretty typical.

Typically unsuprised at Adams' informativeness, style, and overtones=20
of wry humor?

More like bellicosity, intolerance and sarcasm . . . .

>Typically unsuprised at Adams' informativeness, style, and overtones
>of wry humor?

wrote:
> D. Cook Feb 3, 4:26 pm wryly witnessed:
>
>
>>Hey man, if my starter can't stay happy in less-than-sterile
>>conditions then it definitely doesn't belong in my house with
>>two little kids, two fuzzy cats, and two slobbery dogs!
>
> Did you try to get a fresh start from SDI? Used to be Ed Wood would
> e-mail you himself prepared to detail all the "mistakes" you had made
> with handling his culture, and why you weren't fit to receive a
> re-shipment. In my mind this entertainment value rivals tickets to the
> big football match! Atmospheric dog-slobber might seem to put you on
> shaky ground, but what have you to lose? Likely, too, a member here
> could send you a dried start of the Russian starter, taking for granted
> that indeed someone has truly re-started Dr. Wood's actual culture.

I purchased Dr. Wood's Russian culture, and it started with no problems.
After I wrote a nice review of one if his books on Amazon, he gave me
some of his San Francisco culture. It also started with no problems.

I commented upon Goldrush in another note, and while I'm happy some
people have had success with it, my informal count runs about 3 pans to
1 praise.

I also started two cultures here at home, started using the Friends of
Carl starter, and Dick sent me a culture he got from someone in Austria.

In the end, I decided that was too darn many starters - there wasn't
enough room for beer or white wine in the fridge, much less food. So I
pared them down. And now, I'm down to one starter, the Friends of Carl.
Handled properly, breads made with it can get nicely sour, it's as
quick as the SDI Russian Starter, and it's very, very reliable. But,
from my own experience, I have no ill feelings about Dr. Wood and his
starters.

Mike

Pawnee Feb 4, 3:22 am wrote:

> It's easy to malign other folks and their way of doing things.
> Lisse, I'm surprised at your post. although I'm not surprised at
> all at Adams' post. That's pretty typical.



Gee Pawnee,

I am not maligning anyone. Let Mr Cook apply for a re-start from Dr.
Wood. From what he has written I believe he should fairly receive one.
Perhaps Mr. Cook did not realize he could ask for this under Dr. Wood's
guarantee? I sincerely hope he fairs better than I.

--Lisse

Mike Avery Feb 4, 7:57 am wrote:

> I purchased Dr. Wood's Russian culture, and it started with no
> problems. After I wrote a nice review of one if his books on
> Amazon, he gave me some of his San Francisco culture. It also
> started with no problems.



So to paraphrase: "If you're culture starts, and if you like the way Ed
Wood writes, you are in fine shape. And if they and you don't, you're
not."

Perhaps then you would be willing to contact Mr. Cook privately and
send him a re-trial of the Russian starter for the price of the
postage, should Dr. Wood turn him down for the re-start?

I am not trying to hustle or be smart here. And I truly don't care
either way. It just seems prudent for "D.Cook" to have a backup.

--Lisse

In message
"Pawnee" > described my posting style:

> More like bellicosity, intolerance and sarcasm . . . .

Now that you mention it, I see that you are right.

A person with such keen insight as yourself, and talent
for concise self-expression, should post more.

Dick Adams Feb 5, 6:32 am Wrote:

> Now that you mention it, I see that you are right.

> A person with such keen insight as yourself, and talent
> for concise self-expression, should post more.

Hi Dick,
How's this for insight:

Let "D.Cook" make a suitable application to Sourdough's International
for a restart of the Russian culture.

Let the Ed Wood supporters here guarantee that if D.Cook does not
receive the restart, they will provide him with one.

If Ed Wood does the right thing it will be a win - win situation, Mr.
Cook will have his starter and the Ed Wood Boosters will be vindicated.

If Ed Wood does not, the Boosters may still show the quality of the
starter, and have the opportunity to exceed their idol in generosity.

D. Cook should make suitable proofs of his claim, perhaps order number,
invoice, copies of emails from Ed Wood., etc. For the satisfaction on
the Ed Wood supporters.

This way we may learn something rather than squabble. (Or perhaps in
addition to, as there seems no stopping you.

I would personally hope for a win-win

--Lisse

To Lisse, =
oups.com...

I think that every one who gets a putoff reply regarding a defective
start should send the text of it to you, and you should compile these=20
to an encyclopedia, which can ultimately be posted.

Both replies I got were from her. The first was that there was no
record of my order. The second was that I was in error to have
used only a portion of what was sent in attempt to revive. Some
one in the group sent me desired start, finally.

My present thought is that no one should pay money for an undated
start, notwithstanding that I have had good results with Mr. Baker,
from various sources, including Yankee Harvest on the Internet, who
charge very little and ship promptly.

Carl's is prepared fresh for each shipment batch and dated -- there
have been few, if any, substantial claims of failure to revive, though
it is certainly true that some people report waiting several weeks for
it to arrive.

In my hands, both Mr. Baker and Carl's behave similarly to SDI's
Russia.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

I contacted Sourdoughs International and let them know what happened.
Ed Wood wrote me back and said my flour probably had a contaminant in
it, but thought that the resulting culture after the wash was still
100% Russian. I'm really not too concerned with it; I kept back a
small amount of the powdered culture from the shipment, and I'll give
it another try someday. I've actually got some dough rising from the
Russian that I washed, and it's acting a lot faster on this batch
(about 150% volume after an hour) than it did last time, so perhaps it
just needed another couple of refreshes to perk it back up.

As it stands, I have three cultures in my fridge, plus I sent off today
for one from Carl's Friends, so I'm rapidly running out of room in
there. No worries.

Oh, and I'm a Mrs. ;-)

D. Cook Feb 5, 1:26 pm disclosed:

> Ed Wood wrote me back and said my flour probably had a
> contaminant in it, but thought that the resulting culture after the
wash
> was still 100% Russian

Naturally. ;-)

> As it stands, I have three cultures in my fridge, plus I sent off
> today for one from Carl's Friends, so I'm rapidly running out of
> room in there. No worries.

> Oh, and I'm a Mrs. ;-)

Good for you, both ways!
Glad that's sorted.

--Lisse

wrote:
> Mike Avery Feb 4, 7:57 am wrote:
>
>>I purchased Dr. Wood's Russian culture, and it started with no
>>problems. After I wrote a nice review of one if his books on
>>Amazon, he gave me some of his San Francisco culture. It also
>>started with no problems.

> So to paraphrase: "If you're culture starts, and if you like the way Ed
> Wood writes, you are in fine shape. And if they and you don't, you're
> not."

At this distance, I don't know why D. Cooks' starter didn't. Since I
haven't had problems with Dr. Wood's starters, I don't know on a first
hand basis how he, or his wife, handles problems. We gather that he was
rude to Dick, but we don't know if Dick provoked the rudeness.

At this point, I'm not a "Dr. Wood backer", nor am I antagonistic
towards him. Your paraphrase is, as Mr. Spock would say, illogical.

> Perhaps then you would be willing to contact Mr. Cook privately and
> send him a re-trial of the Russian starter for the price of the
> postage, should Dr. Wood turn him down for the re-start?

As mentioned in another post, I got tired of having my refrigerator full
of starters, so I weeded them out. Further, I asked myself if I was a
starter collector or a baker. I decided I was a baker.

There wasn't enough difference between the Russian culture and Carl's to
worry about, so I kept Carl's. While the SF SD was nice, it wasn't so
nice it justified refrigerator space. So it went too. Ditto a number
of other cultures.

The upshot is that I now how to really use the culture I have and get
the results I want. When I had 6 or 7 cultures, I was too busy keeping
the cultures alive to really learn their idiosyncracies.

> I am not trying to hustle or be smart here. And I truly don't care
> either way. It just seems prudent for "D.Cook" to have a backup.

The final question here would be, is it fair to Dr. Wood to give away
what he sells? Is it different from software piracy? If he gives good
support and sells a good product, he deserves our patronage and loyalty.
If he doesn't measure up, then he doesn't deserve our patronage. But
in either case, giving away what he makes his livelyhood from is not a
good thing.

D. Cook should, in my view, politely but firmly ask for a fresh starter.
From Dr. Wood.

Mike

In article
<mailman.2.1107654568.267.rec.food.sourdough@mail. otherwhen.com>, Mike
Avery > wrote:

> D. Cook should, in my view, politely but firmly ask for a fresh starter.
> From Dr. Wood.

Happy news - I don't think this is necessary. I was just able to go
from active starter to first rise within 3 hours, then final rise took
about 2.5 hours. The bread's in the oven right now baking and my house
has that lovely smell. The original reason I had wanted the Russian
starter was because I had read it was fast; the starter that I had
cultivated myself was taking about 5-6 hours for each rise, and I just
didn't have that much time. This starter, whether it be the actual
Russian or something else entirely that I managed to pick up, suits my
goal of being able to bake bread in one day, and so I am happy. =)

I know the longer it takes to make the bread, the better the flavor
development, but with a 3 year old and a 5 year old, I just do not have
the time for that right now. Perhaps someday.

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.2.1107654568.267.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...

> Since I haven't had problems with Dr. Wood's starters,=20
> I don't know on a first hand basis how he, or his wife,=20
> handles problems. We gather that he was rude to Dick,=20
> but we don't know if Dick provoked the rudeness.

Nobody was rude. Be assured that I provoked Mrs. Wood
to the extent of asking for replacements for starts I felt were
defective. I have had no interaction with Dr. Wood. Please
be more precise (less innuendous) in conjectures based on
your lack of knowledge.

--
DickA

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 18:49:26 -0700, Mike Avery
> wrote:

>The final question here would be, is it fair to Dr. Wood to give away
>what he sells? Is it different from software piracy?

Howdy,

I would think that the ethics of that situation would depend
upon the agreement made between the seller and the buyer if
any.

(As an aside, I have felt for years that it was a huge error
for the software industry to have universally adopted the
word "piracy" for what would better be called "theft." The
word that they adopted has too many connotations that work
against their goals in this arena.)

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Gosh Mike, I think you're swinging past the bell.

> The final question here would be, is it fair to Dr. Wood to give away
> what he sells?

No, you are mis-understanding, here. No one has written to condone
theft , "software piracy" (??) or any such thing. The question was
whether one of Woods' customer's could get satisfactory customer
service. I believe it likely that the SDI replacement policy is false,
that perhaps no one ever receives a replacement culture, even though
the material value of that re-shipment is quite small, could be covered
with a shipping charge, and it is for something they have already paid
for. How aggravating! Also this is a worthwhile thing we can mention in
this forum, before recommending the SDI cultures to others on the FAQs
and links.

> At this point, I'm not a "Dr. Wood backer", nor am I antagonistic
> towards him. Your paraphrase is, as Mr. Spock would say, illogical.

I never characterized you in any manner. I simply asked if you would be
willing to help. I thank you for trying to improve my logic and my
writing.

To return the favor, I would suggest that not everyone is interested
in your life story. Possibly almost no one is. Also there is a respect
to your reader than you can give by writing concisely. It is a respect
I give to your freely. Feel free to pass it on.

--Lisse

On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 18:49:26 -0700, Mike Avery wrote:

[snip]

> The final question here would be, is it fair to Dr. Wood to give away
> what he sells? Is it different from software piracy? If he gives good
> support and sells a good product, he deserves our patronage and loyalty.
> If he doesn't measure up, then he doesn't deserve our patronage. But
> in either case, giving away what he makes his livelyhood from is not a
> good thing.
>

With all due respect, I disagree completely. In the US, and in most
countries, there are three forms of legal protection for so-called
intellectual property: copyright, patent, and licensing agreements.

Software is usually protected both by copyright and licensing agreement.
While I have never ordered from SDI, I doubt they claim they are licensing
the starter to you. (most of the time when you "buy" software, you are
not really buying it. You are buying a license to use it under the terms
of the End User License Agreement or EULA) I rather think they are selling
the starter to you, so no license agreement prevents you from reselling it
or giving it away, or cloning it. (I hope someone will correct me if I am
wrong.)

Copyright seems totally irrelevant to dough and starter.

That leaves patents. The idea of patenting a starter which is 100's of
years old (as SDI claims many or all of their starters are) is
preposterous since patents are intended to grant a temporary monopoly on
novel ideas.

So, there is no legal protection, and as far as I can see, no reason at
all why a person who WANTS to share an SDI starter shouldn't. If SDI's
business fails because of that, it is just a bad business model, that is
all. Personally, I doubt that the business would fail, provided the
starters are genuine and work well.

As a side note, I have heard that when farmers buy genetically engineered
seed from one of the big suppliers they don't have the right to plant the
second generation seeds! They can plant one season's worth of crops, and
sell the harvest, but technically they can't take part of the harvest and
replant with it. I don't think they can sell the second generation seeds
to other farmers, either. But those are patent protected genetically
modified seeds, and besides, it sounds so crazy I would like to think that
the world would be a better place without such nonsense!

> Mike

--Mac

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 07:06:35 -0500, Kenneth wrote:

> On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 18:49:26 -0700, Mike Avery
> > wrote:
>
>>The final question here would be, is it fair to Dr. Wood to give away
>>what he sells? Is it different from software piracy?
>
> Howdy,
>
> I would think that the ethics of that situation would depend
> upon the agreement made between the seller and the buyer if
> any.
>
> (As an aside, I have felt for years that it was a huge error
> for the software industry to have universally adopted the
> word "piracy" for what would better be called "theft." The
> word that they adopted has too many connotations that work
> against their goals in this arena.)
>
> All the best,

Copyright infringement and theft are two different crimes. Making illegal
copies of software is not logically or legally equivalent to theft. If you
illegally copy software after agreeing to the terms of the EULA, you are
also violating a license agreement.

But if you make an illegal copy of an illegal copy, it seems to me that
copyright infringement is your only crime (unless you are also part of a
conspiracy or criminal enterprise).

--Mac

Mac wrote:
about copyright and all that stuff.

Now - would you give or sell one of Mr Woods starter you bought from him
to somebody else?

Yes or no?

I am not clear at all after what you wrote.

Thank you,


Samartha

On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 21:48:58 -0700, Samartha Deva wrote:

> Mac wrote:
> about copyright and all that stuff.
>
> Now - would you give or sell one of Mr Woods starter you bought from him
> to somebody else?
>
> Yes or no?
>

Yes, unless there is a purchase agreement to the contrary. I see no moral
or legal obstacle to giving it away. I would certainly share with someone
who lived near me!

Selling it could be a little bit dicey, legally. It might very well depend
on how you market it. It would be wrong to cash-in on the SDI name, for
example. And might expose me (or whoever) to liability under trademark law
(the 4th kind of Intellectual Property, and one I omitted in my earlier
discussion).

> I am not clear at all after what you wrote.
>
> Thank you,
>

Sorry. I'll try to be more clear. The main thing is that I would defend
the right of someone else to do it (especially if they send it for free
or for postage only), not that I would do it myself.

>
> Samartha

Mac Feb 7, 7:16 pm said:

.....
> That leaves patents. The idea of patenting a starter
> which is 100's of years old (as SDI claims many or
> all of their starters are) is preposterous since patents
> are intended to grant a temporary monopoly on novel
> ideas.


Hello,
Just as a point for consideration, the "novel idea" exploited by SDI in
this case was developed some four billion years ago, by anyone's best
reckoning, has been running unregulated ever since, and the original
developer did not leave any contract, instructions, or even his/her
"name" -- if name is an applicable concept. Sourdoughs from Antiquity
indeed!

It's rather like the scene from the Maltese Falcon -- "...well you
could say that it rightfully belonged to the king of Spain...." If
anyone was going to get indignant about rights, it would best be the
Russian bakers "from small villages north of Moscow" as Wood writes,
but who knows where they got the culture?

Usually in his stories Wood claims that he acquires his cultures from
odd travelers who give them to him (for what consideration?) or by
going into local bakeries and asking first if they make their bread
from a starter and then asking to buy dough if they do. How has he paid
attention to legalistics, royalties and the rights of his sources?

There is no "end user agreement" or "distribution clause" explicit with
buying the cultures from SDI. To buy the less-favored cultures for $9
each it is now "necessary" that the user "have access" to Wood's
"Classic Sourdoughs" book so that they will have a copy of his starting
directions. So rather than send one page of clearly printed directions
with his product or simply post them on his web site, he wants to sell
his books for either $9 or $16 more (seems like you get a "discount"
with the package) holy IBM.

If you happen to have read them (Classic Sourdoughs p.38+) these are
the most confusingly wordy, inexplicit and wasteful directions you can
find for starting a dried culture, almost guaranteeing that all of his
customers are in default of exactly following his procedure. Is this by
design? I believe that Wood relishes his role as a petty
authoritarian, "soup nazi." It's evident from how he clings to his
"authentic" adjectives and ideas.

Pay me and I will spank you, you silly person! How do I know you are
silly? Because you pay me to spank you!

Maybe some to the cultures are good. But they aren't any better than
the ones I start myself. I did eventually get mine to start, but they
left a bad taste of Ed Wood for me.

Best to All,

--Lisse

On 2/8/05 2:56 PM, " >
wrote:

> Usually in his stories Wood claims that he acquires his cultures from
> odd travelers who give them to him (for what consideration?) or by
> going into local bakeries and asking first if they make their bread
> from a starter and then asking to buy dough if they do.

I cannot fault Woods for doing this.

If we could look 10-20 years into the future, we will find that cereal
grains, like grapes, will be identified with specific agricultural practices
and soils. You should expect estate wheats and estate starters. We will find
that San Francisco germ strains, for example, are related to certain valleys
and farms and that climate and soil drive the process. King Arthur Flour has
"artisan" flour on the grocery shelves today. Montana Gold is being sold
next to flour mills in the grocery. It is happening. The leading edge
sourdough technician will not be fooling around with generic starter or
generic flour.

Ed Woods is just a baby step on the path to finding supplies of high quality
grains and building unique starters.











_______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

Feb 8, 6:29 pm Will Wrote:

>> Usually in his stories Wood claims that he acquires his cultures
from
>> odd travelers who give them to him (for what consideration?) or by
>> going into local bakeries and asking first if they make their bread
>> from a starter and then asking to buy dough if they do.

>I cannot fault Woods for doing this.

Hi Will,

I don't fault him either. It is also his right to run his business as
he wishes. And my right not to buy from him. As to giving or selling
life forms, currently if my dachshund has puppies I do not feel that I
am cheating or stealing from the lady I bought her from if I sell those
puppies or give them away. So why should I feel differently about the
"descendents" of the starters bought from SDI? Does being less like a
'real' living thing make them seem more like property?

>Ed Woods is just a baby step on the path to finding supplies of high
quality
>grains and building unique starters.

Maybe, but the SD market is very small and select. Likely things will
keep on as they are for quite a while because there is little or no
need to change. People really buy from SDI because it is convenient for
them to do so, or they are just curious to see what these recommended
"international" starters are like.

Very likely in the future there WILL be more DNA fingerprinting and
patenting of life forms. Perhaps this will lead to "end user
agreements" and "copy protection," like the snakes in the movie Blade
Runner. But that just puts more hassle in life, and where people are
too greatly harrassed they find alternatives.

--Lisse

wrote:
> Feb 8, 6:29 pm Will Wrote:

>
> I don't fault him either. It is also his right to run his business as
> he wishes. And my right not to buy from him. As to giving or selling
> life forms, currently if my dachshund has puppies I do not feel that
I
> am cheating or stealing from the lady I bought her from if I sell
those
> puppies or give them away. So why should I feel differently about
the
> "descendents" of the starters bought from SDI? Does being less like a
> 'real' living thing make them seem more like property?
>

I think this falls into the same category as roses. If you have a
non-patent
rose plant, clone it to your heart's content. No matter where you got
the origial from.

If you have a patented rose, however, the law protects the patent
holder and
you do not have the right to clone this rose.

Until sourdough cultures are patented, legally I think you have the
right
to reproduce it and redistribute it as you see fit.

Several other lifeforms have been recently patented.

__
Rusty
Sacramento, California