 |
|
| Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
| Reply |
|
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
|
|||
|
|||
stickyness
I sometimes manage to produce very fine rye bread (50% rye, 50% wheat),
but sometimes the dough remains sticky and the bread does not rise a lot. The recipe is 400g of wheat flour, add water and sour dough, mix and let it rest for 2 hours. Add salt and 400g rye, mix, knead and let it rest overnight. After that rest I can see whether the bread will be fine or not, depending whether the dough is elastic or sticky. What might influence the consistency? Thanks / JB |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Local humidity, esp if you don't keep your flour airtight.
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 22:50:37 +0100, J Boehm > wrote: >I sometimes manage to produce very fine rye bread (50% rye, 50% wheat), >but sometimes the dough remains sticky and the bread does not rise a lot. >The recipe is 400g of wheat flour, add water and sour dough, mix and let >it rest for 2 hours. Add salt and 400g rye, mix, knead and let it rest >overnight. After that rest I can see whether the bread will be fine or >not, depending whether the dough is elastic or sticky. What might >influence the consistency? > >Thanks / JB |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Local humidity, esp if you don't keep your flour airtight.
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 22:50:37 +0100, J Boehm > wrote: >I sometimes manage to produce very fine rye bread (50% rye, 50% wheat), >but sometimes the dough remains sticky and the bread does not rise a lot. >The recipe is 400g of wheat flour, add water and sour dough, mix and let >it rest for 2 hours. Add salt and 400g rye, mix, knead and let it rest >overnight. After that rest I can see whether the bread will be fine or >not, depending whether the dough is elastic or sticky. What might >influence the consistency? > >Thanks / JB |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Local humidity, esp if you don't keep your flour airtight.
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 22:50:37 +0100, J Boehm > wrote: >I sometimes manage to produce very fine rye bread (50% rye, 50% wheat), >but sometimes the dough remains sticky and the bread does not rise a lot. >The recipe is 400g of wheat flour, add water and sour dough, mix and let >it rest for 2 hours. Add salt and 400g rye, mix, knead and let it rest >overnight. After that rest I can see whether the bread will be fine or >not, depending whether the dough is elastic or sticky. What might >influence the consistency? > >Thanks / JB |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
At 02:50 PM 11/14/2004, JB wrote:
>I sometimes manage to produce very fine rye bread (50% rye, 50% wheat), >but sometimes the dough remains sticky and the bread does not rise a lot. >The recipe is 400g of wheat flour, add water and sour dough, mix and let >it rest for 2 hours. Add salt and 400g rye, mix, knead and let it rest >overnight. After that rest I can see whether the bread will be fine or >not, depending whether the dough is elastic or sticky. What might >influence the consistency? It looks that you answered this yourself - the only variable part in your recipe appears to be the starter. Is there perhaps a variance? Or do you change flours - rye for example and then get a different result? If everything is the same and the result is different, there got to be something different, so what varies? What you describe: poor rise and stickiness points to overripe starter, so my guess is that starter management is the cause. What is somewhat interesting is that you don't see the stickiness right after the first mix. With rye you have inherent stickiness - the more rye, the more sticky. With 50 %, it's not very bad. I find your recipe very interesting - do you know any more about the background of the timings or is there a source where you got it? Samartha ______________________________________________ >Rec.food.sourdough mailing list >http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
At 02:50 PM 11/14/2004, JB wrote:
>I sometimes manage to produce very fine rye bread (50% rye, 50% wheat), >but sometimes the dough remains sticky and the bread does not rise a lot. >The recipe is 400g of wheat flour, add water and sour dough, mix and let >it rest for 2 hours. Add salt and 400g rye, mix, knead and let it rest >overnight. After that rest I can see whether the bread will be fine or >not, depending whether the dough is elastic or sticky. What might >influence the consistency? It looks that you answered this yourself - the only variable part in your recipe appears to be the starter. Is there perhaps a variance? Or do you change flours - rye for example and then get a different result? If everything is the same and the result is different, there got to be something different, so what varies? What you describe: poor rise and stickiness points to overripe starter, so my guess is that starter management is the cause. What is somewhat interesting is that you don't see the stickiness right after the first mix. With rye you have inherent stickiness - the more rye, the more sticky. With 50 %, it's not very bad. I find your recipe very interesting - do you know any more about the background of the timings or is there a source where you got it? Samartha ______________________________________________ >Rec.food.sourdough mailing list >http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"J Boehm" > wrote in message news
 > I sometimes manage to produce very fine rye bread (50% rye, 50% wheat), > but sometimes the dough remains sticky and the bread does not rise a lot. > The recipe is 400g of wheat flour, add water and sour dough, mix and let > it rest for 2 hours. Add salt and 400g rye, mix, knead and let it rest > overnight. After that rest I can see whether the bread will be fine or > not, depending whether the dough is elastic or sticky. What might > influence the consistency? > > Thanks / JB Wow! OVERNIGHT? I am new to sourdoughs (cultured mine from the wild ones in the 'dirty old town') so the procedures I read are quite helpful and confusing. 150g rye 50g starter 200g water ----------- * 8 hours = 400g of sponge ----------- ----------- 400g sponge 500g wheat flour 100g rye flour trace of salt 230g water ----------- * 3 hours rise + 12" @ 240C (w/ steam) + 19" @ 220C ------------ ca. 1Kg loaf Am I doing something wrong (only 3' rise time)? |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"J Boehm" > wrote in message news
> I sometimes manage to produce very fine rye bread (50% rye, 50% wheat), > but sometimes the dough remains sticky and the bread does not rise a lot. > The recipe is 400g of wheat flour, add water and sour dough, mix and let > it rest for 2 hours. Add salt and 400g rye, mix, knead and let it rest > overnight. After that rest I can see whether the bread will be fine or > not, depending whether the dough is elastic or sticky. What might > influence the consistency? > > Thanks / JB Wow! OVERNIGHT? I am new to sourdoughs (cultured mine from the wild ones in the 'dirty old town') so the procedures I read are quite helpful and confusing. 150g rye 50g starter 200g water ----------- * 8 hours = 400g of sponge ----------- ----------- 400g sponge 500g wheat flour 100g rye flour trace of salt 230g water ----------- * 3 hours rise + 12" @ 240C (w/ steam) + 19" @ 220C ------------ ca. 1Kg loaf Am I doing something wrong (only 3' rise time)? |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"J Boehm" > wrote in message news
> I sometimes manage to produce very fine rye bread (50% rye, 50% wheat), > but sometimes the dough remains sticky and the bread does not rise a lot. > The recipe is 400g of wheat flour, add water and sour dough, mix and let > it rest for 2 hours. Add salt and 400g rye, mix, knead and let it rest > overnight. After that rest I can see whether the bread will be fine or > not, depending whether the dough is elastic or sticky. What might > influence the consistency? > > Thanks / JB Wow! OVERNIGHT? I am new to sourdoughs (cultured mine from the wild ones in the 'dirty old town') so the procedures I read are quite helpful and confusing. 150g rye 50g starter 200g water ----------- * 8 hours = 400g of sponge ----------- ----------- 400g sponge 500g wheat flour 100g rye flour trace of salt 230g water ----------- * 3 hours rise + 12" @ 240C (w/ steam) + 19" @ 220C ------------ ca. 1Kg loaf Am I doing something wrong (only 3' rise time)? |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
I'm decidedly unscientific in my breadmaking. My method:
1c starter into 2c warm water, add flour to make pancake batter ferment overnight ADD flour to make soft dough, knead until no longer sticky and there's a nice gluten sheet; I use my Kitchenaid stand mixer because I have wrist problems and cannot knead by hand these days :P RISE until doubled (usually 2-3 hours), punch down RISE again until doubled (1-1.5hours), punch down, shape loaves PROOF (1-1.5 hours) BAKE Note: I maintain my starter using good-quality commercial white bread flour. I bake using homeground hard white wheat flour On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:18:13 -0000, "Capomaestro" > wrote: > >Wow! OVERNIGHT? I am new to sourdoughs (cultured mine from the wild ones in the 'dirty old town') so the procedures I read are >quite helpful and confusing. > >150g rye >50g starter >200g water >----------- >* 8 hours = 400g of sponge >----------- >----------- >400g sponge >500g wheat flour >100g rye flour > trace of salt >230g water >----------- >* 3 hours rise >+ 12" @ 240C (w/ steam) >+ 19" @ 220C >------------ >ca. 1Kg loaf > >Am I doing something wrong (only 3' rise time)? > |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
I'm decidedly unscientific in my breadmaking. My method:
1c starter into 2c warm water, add flour to make pancake batter ferment overnight ADD flour to make soft dough, knead until no longer sticky and there's a nice gluten sheet; I use my Kitchenaid stand mixer because I have wrist problems and cannot knead by hand these days :P RISE until doubled (usually 2-3 hours), punch down RISE again until doubled (1-1.5hours), punch down, shape loaves PROOF (1-1.5 hours) BAKE Note: I maintain my starter using good-quality commercial white bread flour. I bake using homeground hard white wheat flour On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:18:13 -0000, "Capomaestro" > wrote: > >Wow! OVERNIGHT? I am new to sourdoughs (cultured mine from the wild ones in the 'dirty old town') so the procedures I read are >quite helpful and confusing. > >150g rye >50g starter >200g water >----------- >* 8 hours = 400g of sponge >----------- >----------- >400g sponge >500g wheat flour >100g rye flour > trace of salt >230g water >----------- >* 3 hours rise >+ 12" @ 240C (w/ steam) >+ 19" @ 220C >------------ >ca. 1Kg loaf > >Am I doing something wrong (only 3' rise time)? > |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Wooly" > wrote in message = ... > I'm decidedly unscientific in my breadmaking. My method: >=20 > 1c starter into 2c warm water, add flour to make pancake batter > ferment overnight > ADD flour to make soft dough, knead until no longer sticky and there's > a nice gluten sheet; I use my Kitchenaid stand mixer because I have > wrist problems and cannot knead by hand these days :P > RISE until doubled (usually 2-3 hours), punch down > RISE again until doubled (1-1.5hours), punch down, shape loaves > PROOF (1-1.5 hours) > BAKE >=20 > Note: I maintain my starter using good-quality commercial white bread > flour. I bake using homeground hard white wheat flour You are saying 2 punch-downs, mostly home-grown whole-wheat flour=20 (albeit white). What does a "nice gluten sheet" look like. Is it possible with WW = flour? Is there enough diastatic activity in one cup of bread flour to overcome amylase lack in added home-ground flour (estimated ~5 cups)? Local common knowledge might predict that you are making sour-brick loaves, notwithstanding that you proposed procedure is elegantly simple, and that you may be avoiding stickiness by avoiding the use of rye = flour. Or perhaps your unscientific loaves are entirely theoretical? These various questions could be resolved if you would post photos and links (loaf, slice, "nice gluten sheet"). =20 --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Wooly" > wrote in message = ... > I'm decidedly unscientific in my breadmaking. My method: >=20 > 1c starter into 2c warm water, add flour to make pancake batter > ferment overnight > ADD flour to make soft dough, knead until no longer sticky and there's > a nice gluten sheet; I use my Kitchenaid stand mixer because I have > wrist problems and cannot knead by hand these days :P > RISE until doubled (usually 2-3 hours), punch down > RISE again until doubled (1-1.5hours), punch down, shape loaves > PROOF (1-1.5 hours) > BAKE >=20 > Note: I maintain my starter using good-quality commercial white bread > flour. I bake using homeground hard white wheat flour You are saying 2 punch-downs, mostly home-grown whole-wheat flour=20 (albeit white). What does a "nice gluten sheet" look like. Is it possible with WW = flour? Is there enough diastatic activity in one cup of bread flour to overcome amylase lack in added home-ground flour (estimated ~5 cups)? Local common knowledge might predict that you are making sour-brick loaves, notwithstanding that you proposed procedure is elegantly simple, and that you may be avoiding stickiness by avoiding the use of rye = flour. Or perhaps your unscientific loaves are entirely theoretical? These various questions could be resolved if you would post photos and links (loaf, slice, "nice gluten sheet"). =20 --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:38:37 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote: > >"Wooly" > wrote in message ... > >> I'm decidedly unscientific in my breadmaking. My method: >> >> 1c starter into 2c warm water, add flour to make pancake batter >> ferment overnight >> ADD flour to make soft dough, knead until no longer sticky and there's >> a nice gluten sheet; I use my Kitchenaid stand mixer because I have >> wrist problems and cannot knead by hand these days :P >> RISE until doubled (usually 2-3 hours), punch down >> RISE again until doubled (1-1.5hours), punch down, shape loaves >> PROOF (1-1.5 hours) >> BAKE >> >> Note: I maintain my starter using good-quality commercial white bread >> flour. I bake using homeground hard white wheat flour > >You are saying 2 punch-downs Yes. One overnight ferment, two rises and a proof. This allows the yeasties adequate time to do their magic and produce the gluten we know and love despite the strong character of the whole wheat flour. >, mostly home-grown whole-wheat flour >(albeit white). No, not home GROWN, home GROUND. There's a difference. There are two types of hard wheat - red and white. I prefer hard white wheat because the end product isn't as coarse but I'm still getting the benefit of the trace nutrients and fresh germ oils. Some people like the hard red because of the coarseness, but I'm not one of them. WHITE FLOUR is commercially ground flour that has had the bran and germ removed. Not good for much in the way of nutrition. > >What does a "nice gluten sheet" look like. Work on your breadmaking skills and you too can identify one. As the starch is worked off of the protein particles in the flour, the protein begins to aggregate into strands. Get enough of them together and you get a gluten sheet. This characteristic of wheat flour is what allows the dough to rise and to spring in the oven. When you have a good gluten sheet you'll be able to stretch the dough between your fingers to such a thinness that you can read newsprint through it. Note I said stretch. If it tears you ain't there yet. > Is it possible with WW flour? Of course it is. >Is there enough diastatic activity in one cup of bread flour to overcome >amylase lack in added home-ground flour (estimated ~5 cups)? I've been using home-ground whole wheat flour for years, for both yeasted and sourdough bakes. Since I'm not obsessive in my approach to breadmaking all I can say is that with one teaspoon of commercial yeast, or 1/2 cup of my starter, plus two rises and a proof and I'll put my four-loaf bake up against yours any day. I don't ADD homeground ww flour, I use it exclusively except for the quarter cup of white bread flour that comes in courtesy of the starter. > >Local common knowledge might predict that you are making sour-brick >loaves, Please don't assume that because you have trouble producing good whole wheat bread with a sour starter that I do too. We don't all want the jam to fall through the holes in our toast  The sourdough bread Imake is adequate to my needs - it has a fine crumb without being dense or brickish. It keeps the butter and jam ON the toast and doesn't allow same to run through onto my plate. I can use it to make sandwiches without the mayo, the peanut butter, or the hummus falling out through the holes in the crumb. >notwithstanding that you proposed procedure is elegantly simple, Yes, and one I've perfected over 25 years of baking. The only measurements required when I make bread are for the starter (or yeast) and the liquid. Everything else is done based on the feel and appearance of the dough. >and that you may be avoiding stickiness by avoiding the use of rye flour. I don't use rye flour. As any baker will tell you, a wheat dough that is slightly sticky going into the bowl for the first rise will NOT be sticky coming out for the first punchdown. Why? Because the flour particles absorb the "excess" moisture. If you set a perfectly unsticky dough chances are you'll end up with a brick when you take it out of the oven some hours later. Why? Because you worked in way too much flour up front to unstickify the dough without considering the effect it would have on the finished product. >Or perhaps your unscientific loaves are entirely theoretical? Want me to send you one? By the time it arrives it'll be good and stale, but since you're convinced I'm blowing smoke up your ass I'll make the offer. I do expect you'll reimburse me for postage. > >These various questions could be resolved if you would post photos and >links (loaf, slice, "nice gluten sheet"). Right. And perhaps you need to go forth and learn how to bake bread intuitively instead of relying on other people's "scientific" directions and your subsequent failures. Baking as a whole is a science, but in my experience the baking of bread is an artform. I'll refer you to the Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book for further reading. |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:38:37 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote: > >"Wooly" > wrote in message ... > >> I'm decidedly unscientific in my breadmaking. My method: >> >> 1c starter into 2c warm water, add flour to make pancake batter >> ferment overnight >> ADD flour to make soft dough, knead until no longer sticky and there's >> a nice gluten sheet; I use my Kitchenaid stand mixer because I have >> wrist problems and cannot knead by hand these days :P >> RISE until doubled (usually 2-3 hours), punch down >> RISE again until doubled (1-1.5hours), punch down, shape loaves >> PROOF (1-1.5 hours) >> BAKE >> >> Note: I maintain my starter using good-quality commercial white bread >> flour. I bake using homeground hard white wheat flour > >You are saying 2 punch-downs Yes. One overnight ferment, two rises and a proof. This allows the yeasties adequate time to do their magic and produce the gluten we know and love despite the strong character of the whole wheat flour. >, mostly home-grown whole-wheat flour >(albeit white). No, not home GROWN, home GROUND. There's a difference. There are two types of hard wheat - red and white. I prefer hard white wheat because the end product isn't as coarse but I'm still getting the benefit of the trace nutrients and fresh germ oils. Some people like the hard red because of the coarseness, but I'm not one of them. WHITE FLOUR is commercially ground flour that has had the bran and germ removed. Not good for much in the way of nutrition. > >What does a "nice gluten sheet" look like. Work on your breadmaking skills and you too can identify one. As the starch is worked off of the protein particles in the flour, the protein begins to aggregate into strands. Get enough of them together and you get a gluten sheet. This characteristic of wheat flour is what allows the dough to rise and to spring in the oven. When you have a good gluten sheet you'll be able to stretch the dough between your fingers to such a thinness that you can read newsprint through it. Note I said stretch. If it tears you ain't there yet. > Is it possible with WW flour? Of course it is. >Is there enough diastatic activity in one cup of bread flour to overcome >amylase lack in added home-ground flour (estimated ~5 cups)? I've been using home-ground whole wheat flour for years, for both yeasted and sourdough bakes. Since I'm not obsessive in my approach to breadmaking all I can say is that with one teaspoon of commercial yeast, or 1/2 cup of my starter, plus two rises and a proof and I'll put my four-loaf bake up against yours any day. I don't ADD homeground ww flour, I use it exclusively except for the quarter cup of white bread flour that comes in courtesy of the starter. > >Local common knowledge might predict that you are making sour-brick >loaves, Please don't assume that because you have trouble producing good whole wheat bread with a sour starter that I do too. We don't all want the jam to fall through the holes in our toast The sourdough bread Imake is adequate to my needs - it has a fine crumb without being dense or brickish. It keeps the butter and jam ON the toast and doesn't allow same to run through onto my plate. I can use it to make sandwiches without the mayo, the peanut butter, or the hummus falling out through the holes in the crumb. >notwithstanding that you proposed procedure is elegantly simple, Yes, and one I've perfected over 25 years of baking. The only measurements required when I make bread are for the starter (or yeast) and the liquid. Everything else is done based on the feel and appearance of the dough. >and that you may be avoiding stickiness by avoiding the use of rye flour. I don't use rye flour. As any baker will tell you, a wheat dough that is slightly sticky going into the bowl for the first rise will NOT be sticky coming out for the first punchdown. Why? Because the flour particles absorb the "excess" moisture. If you set a perfectly unsticky dough chances are you'll end up with a brick when you take it out of the oven some hours later. Why? Because you worked in way too much flour up front to unstickify the dough without considering the effect it would have on the finished product. >Or perhaps your unscientific loaves are entirely theoretical? Want me to send you one? By the time it arrives it'll be good and stale, but since you're convinced I'm blowing smoke up your ass I'll make the offer. I do expect you'll reimburse me for postage. > >These various questions could be resolved if you would post photos and >links (loaf, slice, "nice gluten sheet"). Right. And perhaps you need to go forth and learn how to bake bread intuitively instead of relying on other people's "scientific" directions and your subsequent failures. Baking as a whole is a science, but in my experience the baking of bread is an artform. I'll refer you to the Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book for further reading. |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Wooly" > wrote in message = ... > No, not home GROWN, home GROUND. My typo. I take full responsibility. > When you have a good gluten sheet you'll be able to=20 > stretch the dough between your fingers to such a=20 > thinness that you can read newsprint through it. =20 > Note I said stretch. If it tears you ain't there yet. Right! Not there yet. Maybe I need new eyeglasses? > I've been using home-ground whole wheat flour for=20 > years, for both yeasted and sourdough bakes. Since=20 > I'm not obsessive in my approach to breadmaking all=20 > I can say is that with one teaspoon of commercial > yeast, or 1/2 cup of my starter, plus two rises and a=20 > proof and I'll put my four-loaf bake up against yours=20 > any day. Well, I only do two at a time. So you win. > Please don't assume that because you have trouble=20 > producing good whole wheat bread with a sour starter=20 > that I do too. I did not assume what you assume I assumed. =20 > We don't all want the jam to fall through the holes in=20 > our toast. You seem familiar. Have we met you before? > (My procedure is one) I've perfected over 25 years of=20 > baking. The only measurements required when I make=20 > bread are for the starter (or yeast) and the liquid. Everything=20 > else is done based on the feel and appearance of the dough. > ... Want me to send you (a loaf) ? By the time it arrives it'll=20 > be good and stale, but since you're convinced I'm blowing=20 > smoke up your ass I'll make the offer. I do expect you'll=20 > reimburse me for postage. Why not post some links to pictures of you loaves and slices and "window panes" in web space. www.zippyimages.com is good. (I'd like to see the newsprint demo.) > I don't use rye flour.=20 Well, this thread is about sticky old rye dough. So when you=20 post your links, start another thread. > ... perhaps you need to go forth and learn how to bake bread > intuitively instead of relying on other people's "scientific" > directions and your subsequent failures.=20 Thank you for your encouragement.=20 --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html Baking as a whole is a > science, but in my experience the baking of bread is an artform. >=20 > I'll refer you to the Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book for further reading. > |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Wooly" > wrote in message = ... > No, not home GROWN, home GROUND. My typo. I take full responsibility. > When you have a good gluten sheet you'll be able to=20 > stretch the dough between your fingers to such a=20 > thinness that you can read newsprint through it. =20 > Note I said stretch. If it tears you ain't there yet. Right! Not there yet. Maybe I need new eyeglasses? > I've been using home-ground whole wheat flour for=20 > years, for both yeasted and sourdough bakes. Since=20 > I'm not obsessive in my approach to breadmaking all=20 > I can say is that with one teaspoon of commercial > yeast, or 1/2 cup of my starter, plus two rises and a=20 > proof and I'll put my four-loaf bake up against yours=20 > any day. Well, I only do two at a time. So you win. > Please don't assume that because you have trouble=20 > producing good whole wheat bread with a sour starter=20 > that I do too. I did not assume what you assume I assumed. =20 > We don't all want the jam to fall through the holes in=20 > our toast. You seem familiar. Have we met you before? > (My procedure is one) I've perfected over 25 years of=20 > baking. The only measurements required when I make=20 > bread are for the starter (or yeast) and the liquid. Everything=20 > else is done based on the feel and appearance of the dough. > ... Want me to send you (a loaf) ? By the time it arrives it'll=20 > be good and stale, but since you're convinced I'm blowing=20 > smoke up your ass I'll make the offer. I do expect you'll=20 > reimburse me for postage. Why not post some links to pictures of you loaves and slices and "window panes" in web space. www.zippyimages.com is good. (I'd like to see the newsprint demo.) > I don't use rye flour.=20 Well, this thread is about sticky old rye dough. So when you=20 post your links, start another thread. > ... perhaps you need to go forth and learn how to bake bread > intuitively instead of relying on other people's "scientific" > directions and your subsequent failures.=20 Thank you for your encouragement.=20 --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html Baking as a whole is a > science, but in my experience the baking of bread is an artform. >=20 > I'll refer you to the Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book for further reading. > |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Wow! (yes, I am being redundant and monosyllabic here.) I was not after WW3.
We've only an Irish organic whole rye flour available here (http://www.ballybrado.com/) which after the rubbing-out (Irish-speak for kneading but in less time!) looks similar to WW dough. I only have a single knock-back (again, Irish-speak for punch down) because a longer fermentation causes a VERY sour bread. I rely on the gluten net (or gluten sheet, as has been mentioned) to hold the loaf moulding. I get ca. 100% oven-spring with artisan pocking (still retaining the butter). I can vary the sponge from rye to wheat as it is maintained as a wheat starter. We've white flours here of several varieties - plain or cream or soft or cake (8 - 10% protein) strong or bakers' (12 - 13.5 protein) self-rising (with leavening agents, aka baking powder) wholemeal (fine, and coarse ground) In NI several more interesting flours are on offer e.g. granary (malted). I am confident enough to register for a baking course in Germany (http://www.bufa-weinheim.de/) after reading this NG. I'll post more on the tech v feel debate afterwards. "Wooly" > wrote in message ... > I'm decidedly unscientific in my breadmaking. My method: > > 1c starter into 2c warm water, add flour to make pancake batter > ferment overnight > ADD flour to make soft dough, knead until no longer sticky and there's > a nice gluten sheet; I use my Kitchenaid stand mixer because I have > wrist problems and cannot knead by hand these days :P > RISE until doubled (usually 2-3 hours), punch down > RISE again until doubled (1-1.5hours), punch down, shape loaves > PROOF (1-1.5 hours) > BAKE > > Note: I maintain my starter using good-quality commercial white bread > flour. I bake using homeground hard white wheat flour > > On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:18:13 -0000, "Capomaestro" > > wrote: > > > >Wow! OVERNIGHT? I am new to sourdoughs (cultured mine from the wild ones in the 'dirty old town') so the procedures I read are > >quite helpful and confusing. > > > >150g rye > >50g starter > >200g water > >----------- > >* 8 hours = 400g of sponge > >----------- > >----------- > >400g sponge > >500g wheat flour > >100g rye flour > > trace of salt > >230g water > >----------- > >* 3 hours rise > >+ 12" @ 240C (w/ steam) > >+ 19" @ 220C > >------------ > >ca. 1Kg loaf > > > >Am I doing something wrong (only 3' rise time)? > > > |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Wow! (yes, I am being redundant and monosyllabic here.) I was not after WW3.
We've only an Irish organic whole rye flour available here (http://www.ballybrado.com/) which after the rubbing-out (Irish-speak for kneading but in less time!) looks similar to WW dough. I only have a single knock-back (again, Irish-speak for punch down) because a longer fermentation causes a VERY sour bread. I rely on the gluten net (or gluten sheet, as has been mentioned) to hold the loaf moulding. I get ca. 100% oven-spring with artisan pocking (still retaining the butter). I can vary the sponge from rye to wheat as it is maintained as a wheat starter. We've white flours here of several varieties - plain or cream or soft or cake (8 - 10% protein) strong or bakers' (12 - 13.5 protein) self-rising (with leavening agents, aka baking powder) wholemeal (fine, and coarse ground) In NI several more interesting flours are on offer e.g. granary (malted). I am confident enough to register for a baking course in Germany (http://www.bufa-weinheim.de/) after reading this NG. I'll post more on the tech v feel debate afterwards. "Wooly" > wrote in message ... > I'm decidedly unscientific in my breadmaking. My method: > > 1c starter into 2c warm water, add flour to make pancake batter > ferment overnight > ADD flour to make soft dough, knead until no longer sticky and there's > a nice gluten sheet; I use my Kitchenaid stand mixer because I have > wrist problems and cannot knead by hand these days :P > RISE until doubled (usually 2-3 hours), punch down > RISE again until doubled (1-1.5hours), punch down, shape loaves > PROOF (1-1.5 hours) > BAKE > > Note: I maintain my starter using good-quality commercial white bread > flour. I bake using homeground hard white wheat flour > > On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:18:13 -0000, "Capomaestro" > > wrote: > > > >Wow! OVERNIGHT? I am new to sourdoughs (cultured mine from the wild ones in the 'dirty old town') so the procedures I read are > >quite helpful and confusing. > > > >150g rye > >50g starter > >200g water > >----------- > >* 8 hours = 400g of sponge > >----------- > >----------- > >400g sponge > >500g wheat flour > >100g rye flour > > trace of salt > >230g water > >----------- > >* 3 hours rise > >+ 12" @ 240C (w/ steam) > >+ 19" @ 220C > >------------ > >ca. 1Kg loaf > > > >Am I doing something wrong (only 3' rise time)? > > > |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Wow! (yes, I am being redundant and monosyllabic here.) I was not after WW3.
We've only an Irish organic whole rye flour available here (http://www.ballybrado.com/) which after the rubbing-out (Irish-speak for kneading but in less time!) looks similar to WW dough. I only have a single knock-back (again, Irish-speak for punch down) because a longer fermentation causes a VERY sour bread. I rely on the gluten net (or gluten sheet, as has been mentioned) to hold the loaf moulding. I get ca. 100% oven-spring with artisan pocking (still retaining the butter). I can vary the sponge from rye to wheat as it is maintained as a wheat starter. We've white flours here of several varieties - plain or cream or soft or cake (8 - 10% protein) strong or bakers' (12 - 13.5 protein) self-rising (with leavening agents, aka baking powder) wholemeal (fine, and coarse ground) In NI several more interesting flours are on offer e.g. granary (malted). I am confident enough to register for a baking course in Germany (http://www.bufa-weinheim.de/) after reading this NG. I'll post more on the tech v feel debate afterwards. "Wooly" > wrote in message ... > I'm decidedly unscientific in my breadmaking. My method: > > 1c starter into 2c warm water, add flour to make pancake batter > ferment overnight > ADD flour to make soft dough, knead until no longer sticky and there's > a nice gluten sheet; I use my Kitchenaid stand mixer because I have > wrist problems and cannot knead by hand these days :P > RISE until doubled (usually 2-3 hours), punch down > RISE again until doubled (1-1.5hours), punch down, shape loaves > PROOF (1-1.5 hours) > BAKE > > Note: I maintain my starter using good-quality commercial white bread > flour. I bake using homeground hard white wheat flour > > On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:18:13 -0000, "Capomaestro" > > wrote: > > > >Wow! OVERNIGHT? I am new to sourdoughs (cultured mine from the wild ones in the 'dirty old town') so the procedures I read are > >quite helpful and confusing. > > > >150g rye > >50g starter > >200g water > >----------- > >* 8 hours = 400g of sponge > >----------- > >----------- > >400g sponge > >500g wheat flour > >100g rye flour > > trace of salt > >230g water > >----------- > >* 3 hours rise > >+ 12" @ 240C (w/ steam) > >+ 19" @ 220C > >------------ > >ca. 1Kg loaf > > > >Am I doing something wrong (only 3' rise time)? > > > |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Dick Adams" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag ... [snip] Why not post some links to pictures of you loaves and slices and "window panes" in web space. www.zippyimages.com is good. (I'd like to see the newsprint demo.) I have difficulties with my uploaded pics..... http://www.zippyimages.com/files/832...dBread_004.jpg doesn't work.. But I'm interested in the demo too [snip] Thank you for your encouragement. -- Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html Baking as a whole is a > science, but in my experience the baking of bread is an artform. > > I'll refer you to the Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book for further reading. > Great book Ulrike |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Dick Adams" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag ... [snip] Why not post some links to pictures of you loaves and slices and "window panes" in web space. www.zippyimages.com is good. (I'd like to see the newsprint demo.) I have difficulties with my uploaded pics..... http://www.zippyimages.com/files/832...dBread_004.jpg doesn't work.. But I'm interested in the demo too [snip] Thank you for your encouragement. -- Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html Baking as a whole is a > science, but in my experience the baking of bread is an artform. > > I'll refer you to the Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book for further reading. > Great book Ulrike |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Dick Adams" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag ... [snip] Why not post some links to pictures of you loaves and slices and "window panes" in web space. www.zippyimages.com is good. (I'd like to see the newsprint demo.) I have difficulties with my uploaded pics..... http://www.zippyimages.com/files/832...dBread_004.jpg doesn't work.. But I'm interested in the demo too [snip] Thank you for your encouragement. -- Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html Baking as a whole is a > science, but in my experience the baking of bread is an artform. > > I'll refer you to the Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book for further reading. > Great book Ulrike |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Dick Adams" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag ... [snip] Why not post some links to pictures of you loaves and slices and "window panes" in web space. www.zippyimages.com is good. (I'd like to see the newsprint demo.) I have difficulties with my uploaded pics..... http://www.zippyimages.com/files/832...dBread_004.jpg doesn't work.. But I'm interested in the demo too [snip] Thank you for your encouragement. -- Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html Baking as a whole is a > science, but in my experience the baking of bread is an artform. > > I'll refer you to the Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book for further reading. > Great book Ulrike |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:29:13 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote: > >"Wooly" > wrote in message ... > >> No, not home GROWN, home GROUND. > >My typo. I take full responsibility. We all make mistakes. > >> When you have a good gluten sheet you'll be able to >> stretch the dough between your fingers to such a >> thinness that you can read newsprint through it. >> Note I said stretch. If it tears you ain't there yet. > >Right! Not there yet. Maybe I need new eyeglasses? I'm being fitted this afternoon. Right now I can read headlines, maybe with the new spex I'll be able ot read the newsprint again. > >> I've been using home-ground whole wheat flour for >> years, for both yeasted and sourdough bakes. Since >> I'm not obsessive in my approach to breadmaking all >> I can say is that with one teaspoon of commercial >> yeast, or 1/2 cup of my starter, plus two rises and a >> proof and I'll put my four-loaf bake up against yours >> any day. > >Well, I only do two at a time. So you win. Quality, not quantity. Size matters, but not in this case. > >> Please don't assume that because you have trouble >> producing good whole wheat bread with a sour starter >> that I do too. > >I did not assume what you assume I assumed. So what should I have assumed you assumed? > >> We don't all want the jam to fall through the holes in >> our toast. > >You seem familiar. Have we met you before? Don't know. Who are you and why are you in my computer? > >> (My procedure is one) I've perfected over 25 years of >> baking. The only measurements required when I make >> bread are for the starter (or yeast) and the liquid. Everything >> else is done based on the feel and appearance of the dough. > >> ... Want me to send you (a loaf) ? By the time it arrives it'll >> be good and stale, but since you're convinced I'm blowing >> smoke up your ass I'll make the offer. I do expect you'll >> reimburse me for postage. > >Why not post some links to pictures of you loaves and slices >and "window panes" in web space. www.zippyimages.com >is good. (I'd like to see the newsprint demo.) Nah, I'm lazy. Its easier to bag a loaf and mail it than to take all those photos and crop them and schlep them up to one of the many websites I maintain in such an embarassingly archaic state. > >> I don't use rye flour. > >Well, this thread is about sticky old rye dough. So when you >post your links, start another thread Actually its about a 50/50 rye/wheat sticky problem child. Since I won't be posting pix the new thread issue is moot. > >> ... perhaps you need to go forth and learn how to bake bread >> intuitively instead of relying on other people's "scientific" >> directions and your subsequent failures. > >Thank you for your encouragement. Any ole' time. |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:29:13 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote: > >"Wooly" > wrote in message ... > >> No, not home GROWN, home GROUND. > >My typo. I take full responsibility. We all make mistakes. > >> When you have a good gluten sheet you'll be able to >> stretch the dough between your fingers to such a >> thinness that you can read newsprint through it. >> Note I said stretch. If it tears you ain't there yet. > >Right! Not there yet. Maybe I need new eyeglasses? I'm being fitted this afternoon. Right now I can read headlines, maybe with the new spex I'll be able ot read the newsprint again. > >> I've been using home-ground whole wheat flour for >> years, for both yeasted and sourdough bakes. Since >> I'm not obsessive in my approach to breadmaking all >> I can say is that with one teaspoon of commercial >> yeast, or 1/2 cup of my starter, plus two rises and a >> proof and I'll put my four-loaf bake up against yours >> any day. > >Well, I only do two at a time. So you win. Quality, not quantity. Size matters, but not in this case. > >> Please don't assume that because you have trouble >> producing good whole wheat bread with a sour starter >> that I do too. > >I did not assume what you assume I assumed. So what should I have assumed you assumed? > >> We don't all want the jam to fall through the holes in >> our toast. > >You seem familiar. Have we met you before? Don't know. Who are you and why are you in my computer? > >> (My procedure is one) I've perfected over 25 years of >> baking. The only measurements required when I make >> bread are for the starter (or yeast) and the liquid. Everything >> else is done based on the feel and appearance of the dough. > >> ... Want me to send you (a loaf) ? By the time it arrives it'll >> be good and stale, but since you're convinced I'm blowing >> smoke up your ass I'll make the offer. I do expect you'll >> reimburse me for postage. > >Why not post some links to pictures of you loaves and slices >and "window panes" in web space. www.zippyimages.com >is good. (I'd like to see the newsprint demo.) Nah, I'm lazy. Its easier to bag a loaf and mail it than to take all those photos and crop them and schlep them up to one of the many websites I maintain in such an embarassingly archaic state. > >> I don't use rye flour. > >Well, this thread is about sticky old rye dough. So when you >post your links, start another thread Actually its about a 50/50 rye/wheat sticky problem child. Since I won't be posting pix the new thread issue is moot. > >> ... perhaps you need to go forth and learn how to bake bread >> intuitively instead of relying on other people's "scientific" >> directions and your subsequent failures. > >Thank you for your encouragement. Any ole' time. |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:29:13 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote: > >"Wooly" > wrote in message ... > >> No, not home GROWN, home GROUND. > >My typo. I take full responsibility. We all make mistakes. > >> When you have a good gluten sheet you'll be able to >> stretch the dough between your fingers to such a >> thinness that you can read newsprint through it. >> Note I said stretch. If it tears you ain't there yet. > >Right! Not there yet. Maybe I need new eyeglasses? I'm being fitted this afternoon. Right now I can read headlines, maybe with the new spex I'll be able ot read the newsprint again. > >> I've been using home-ground whole wheat flour for >> years, for both yeasted and sourdough bakes. Since >> I'm not obsessive in my approach to breadmaking all >> I can say is that with one teaspoon of commercial >> yeast, or 1/2 cup of my starter, plus two rises and a >> proof and I'll put my four-loaf bake up against yours >> any day. > >Well, I only do two at a time. So you win. Quality, not quantity. Size matters, but not in this case. > >> Please don't assume that because you have trouble >> producing good whole wheat bread with a sour starter >> that I do too. > >I did not assume what you assume I assumed. So what should I have assumed you assumed? > >> We don't all want the jam to fall through the holes in >> our toast. > >You seem familiar. Have we met you before? Don't know. Who are you and why are you in my computer? > >> (My procedure is one) I've perfected over 25 years of >> baking. The only measurements required when I make >> bread are for the starter (or yeast) and the liquid. Everything >> else is done based on the feel and appearance of the dough. > >> ... Want me to send you (a loaf) ? By the time it arrives it'll >> be good and stale, but since you're convinced I'm blowing >> smoke up your ass I'll make the offer. I do expect you'll >> reimburse me for postage. > >Why not post some links to pictures of you loaves and slices >and "window panes" in web space. www.zippyimages.com >is good. (I'd like to see the newsprint demo.) Nah, I'm lazy. Its easier to bag a loaf and mail it than to take all those photos and crop them and schlep them up to one of the many websites I maintain in such an embarassingly archaic state. > >> I don't use rye flour. > >Well, this thread is about sticky old rye dough. So when you >post your links, start another thread Actually its about a 50/50 rye/wheat sticky problem child. Since I won't be posting pix the new thread issue is moot. > >> ... perhaps you need to go forth and learn how to bake bread >> intuitively instead of relying on other people's "scientific" >> directions and your subsequent failures. > >Thank you for your encouragement. Any ole' time. |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Wooly" > wrote in message = ... > We all make mistakes. =20 Thank your for your forbearance. =20 Say, Wooly One, not that we've got you, let's ask you this question: Do you think this bread looks like cornbread? http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...PPump%5Fslice= ..jpg Ulrike thinks it is cornbread. -- DickA |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Wooly" > wrote in message = ... > We all make mistakes. =20 Thank your for your forbearance. =20 Say, Wooly One, not that we've got you, let's ask you this question: Do you think this bread looks like cornbread? http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...PPump%5Fslice= ..jpg Ulrike thinks it is cornbread. -- DickA |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Wooly" > wrote in message = ... > We all make mistakes. =20 Thank your for your forbearance. =20 Say, Wooly One, not that we've got you, let's ask you this question: Do you think this bread looks like cornbread? http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...PPump%5Fslice= ..jpg Ulrike thinks it is cornbread. -- DickA |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:41:19 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote: > >"Wooly" > wrote in message ... > >> We all make mistakes. > >Thank your for your forbearance. > >Say, Wooly One, not that we've got you, let's ask you this >question: > >Do you think this bread looks like cornbread? > >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...mp%5Fslice.jpg > >Ulrike thinks it is cornbread. You really don't want to know what I think that looks like... |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:41:19 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote: > >"Wooly" > wrote in message ... > >> We all make mistakes. > >Thank your for your forbearance. > >Say, Wooly One, not that we've got you, let's ask you this >question: > >Do you think this bread looks like cornbread? > >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...mp%5Fslice.jpg > >Ulrike thinks it is cornbread. You really don't want to know what I think that looks like... |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:41:19 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote: > >"Wooly" > wrote in message ... > >> We all make mistakes. > >Thank your for your forbearance. > >Say, Wooly One, not that we've got you, let's ask you this >question: > >Do you think this bread looks like cornbread? > >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...mp%5Fslice.jpg > >Ulrike thinks it is cornbread. You really don't want to know what I think that looks like... |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Wooly" > wrote in message = ... > >Do you think this bread looks like cornbread? > > = http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...PPump%5Fslice= ..jpg > You really don't want to know what I think that looks like... That's a "no", right.??!! See, there, Ulrike... Not cornbread! Cornbread is overall yellow. (I guess old Wooly can make something out of that, too.) --- DickA |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Wooly" > wrote in message = ... > >Do you think this bread looks like cornbread? > > = http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...PPump%5Fslice= ..jpg > You really don't want to know what I think that looks like... That's a "no", right.??!! See, there, Ulrike... Not cornbread! Cornbread is overall yellow. (I guess old Wooly can make something out of that, too.) --- DickA |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Where I'm from cornbread is made from a combination of wheat and corn
flour. That ain't cornbread Ulrike... I have been known to make a yeasted version. Quite yummy. On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:02:06 GMT, "Dick Adams" > wrote: > >"Wooly" > wrote in message ... > >> >Do you think this bread looks like cornbread? >> > http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...mp%5Fslice.jpg >> You really don't want to know what I think that looks like... >That's a "no", right.??!! >See, there, Ulrike... >Not cornbread! > >Cornbread is overall yellow. >(I guess old Wooly can make something out of that, too.) > >--- >DickA |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Where I'm from cornbread is made from a combination of wheat and corn
flour. That ain't cornbread Ulrike... I have been known to make a yeasted version. Quite yummy. On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:02:06 GMT, "Dick Adams" > wrote: > >"Wooly" > wrote in message ... > >> >Do you think this bread looks like cornbread? >> > http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...mp%5Fslice.jpg >> You really don't want to know what I think that looks like... >That's a "no", right.??!! >See, there, Ulrike... >Not cornbread! > >Cornbread is overall yellow. >(I guess old Wooly can make something out of that, too.) > >--- >DickA |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Where I'm from cornbread is made from a combination of wheat and corn
flour. That ain't cornbread Ulrike... I have been known to make a yeasted version. Quite yummy. On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:02:06 GMT, "Dick Adams" > wrote: > >"Wooly" > wrote in message ... > >> >Do you think this bread looks like cornbread? >> > http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...mp%5Fslice.jpg >> You really don't want to know what I think that looks like... >That's a "no", right.??!! >See, there, Ulrike... >Not cornbread! > >Cornbread is overall yellow. >(I guess old Wooly can make something out of that, too.) > >--- >DickA |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Dick Adams wrote: > > Do you think this bread looks like cornbread? > Well, maybe not cornbread as in bread made from corn. But, it probably looks like korn bread as in bread made with whole or almost whole grains. Those old Germanic bakers were always telling the cookbook authors that rrrreal Pumpernickle had korn (whole grain)in it and the cookbook authors went along and added corn(maize)meal to the recipes that they (cookbook authora)invented. There is no putting the genie back in the bottle despite the best efforts of the Pumpernickle Police. Regards, Charles -- Charles Perry Reply to: ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand ** |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Dick Adams wrote: > > Do you think this bread looks like cornbread? > Well, maybe not cornbread as in bread made from corn. But, it probably looks like korn bread as in bread made with whole or almost whole grains. Those old Germanic bakers were always telling the cookbook authors that rrrreal Pumpernickle had korn (whole grain)in it and the cookbook authors went along and added corn(maize)meal to the recipes that they (cookbook authora)invented. There is no putting the genie back in the bottle despite the best efforts of the Pumpernickle Police. Regards, Charles -- Charles Perry Reply to: ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand ** |
| Reply |
| Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
| Display Modes | |
|
|
Linear Mode
