On 13 Nov 2004 16:41:01 -0800, (Anna
Ault) wrote:

> It is possible to maintain the starter you make from the little
>envelopes they send you - that was how I made my first starter. Now,
>the flavour did change a bit after a month or so, but that happens to
>starters in my hands.

Howdy,

I believe that you would have had the same result if you
used flour and water and none of the KA "starter."

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Well, lets look:

case a, dead material:
Assuming there are souring agents in this powder, it would give sour
environment adjusted ( = sourdough ) organisms a head start.

case b, alive material:
With or without souring agents, sourdough typical organisms would
already be there.

In both cases this should give a better result with the powder than with
plain flour and water at some level. If it's detectable is another question.

No argument can convince a true believer. That's what believes are for. And
it keeps things stable over generations:
http://thechrisproject.com/images/map_nowvsthen.jpg

Samartha


At 06:17 PM 11/13/2004, Kenneth wrote:

>Howdy,
>
>I believe that you would have had the same result if you
>used flour and water and none of the KA "starter."
>
>All the best,
>
>--
>Kenneth
>
>If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

Kenneth > wrote in message >. ..
> On 13 Nov 2004 16:41:01 -0800, (Anna
> Ault) wrote:
>
> > It is possible to maintain the starter you make from the little
> >envelopes they send you - that was how I made my first starter. Now,
> >the flavour did change a bit after a month or so, but that happens to
> >starters in my hands.
>
> Howdy,
>
> I believe that you would have had the same result if you
> used flour and water and none of the KA "starter."
>
> All the best,


I doubt that, if what you mean is that I would have had the same
results with making a straight flour and water starter and baking with
it. If I mix up a paste of flour and water on Sunday night at 7 pm, I
cannot expect it to leaven bread at 10 am on Monday. With the
addition of 1/4 tsp of the KA LA-4 powder, it does (and makes a
tolerable good bread, at that.)

Per the packet of this stuff I have in my fridge, it contains
Lactobacillus brevis, Lactobacillus plantarum, and Saccharomyces
cerevisiae (type San Francisco). Those are all the ingredients
listed.

Now, if what you meant is that after a month or so I would have had
the same result of the flavour changing -- absolutely. That happens
to me all the time. It's part of what I like about baking with
sourdough.

AnnaEA

(Anna Ault) wrote in message om>...
> Kenneth > wrote in message >. ..
> > On 13 Nov 2004 16:41:01 -0800, (Anna
> > Ault) wrote:
> >
> > > It is possible to maintain the starter you make from the little
> > >envelopes they send you - that was how I made my first starter. Now,
> > >the flavour did change a bit after a month or so, but that happens to
> > >starters in my hands.
> >
> > Howdy,
> >
> > I believe that you would have had the same result if you
> > used flour and water and none of the KA "starter."
> >
> > All the best,
>
>
> I doubt that, if what you mean is that I would have had the same
> results with making a straight flour and water starter and baking with
> it. If I mix up a paste of flour and water on Sunday night at 7 pm, I
> cannot expect it to leaven bread at 10 am on Monday. With the
> addition of 1/4 tsp of the KA LA-4 powder, it does (and makes a
> tolerable good bread, at that.)
>
> Per the packet of this stuff I have in my fridge, it contains
> Lactobacillus brevis, Lactobacillus plantarum, and Saccharomyces
> cerevisiae (type San Francisco). Those are all the ingredients
> listed.
>
> Now, if what you meant is that after a month or so I would have had
> the same result of the flavour changing -- absolutely. That happens
> to me all the time. It's part of what I like about baking with
> sourdough.
>
> AnnaEA



Hi Anna,
Does enough of the original taste persist to make you think that your
starter is maintaining the original cultures from the Lalvain product?

S. cerevisiae is of course baker's yeast, and the less surviving of
this the better, but the L. brevis and L. plantarum colonies, which
should provide the flavor in the culture, could be enjoying a new home
with compatible wild yeast species!

--Lisse

> Hi Anna,
> Does enough of the original taste persist to make you think that your
> starter is maintaining the original cultures from the Lalvain product?
>
> S. cerevisiae is of course baker's yeast, and the less surviving of
> this the better, but the L. brevis and L. plantarum colonies, which
> should provide the flavor in the culture, could be enjoying a new home
> with compatible wild yeast species!
>
> --Lisse


Lisse,

What I noticed was that as long as I was maintaining the starter on
the counter, and feeding it daily, it seemed to stay consistent with
the original. I noticed a taste change after I switched to keeping it
in the fridge - it still leavened nicely, but became fairly mild. I
adjusted the hydration, and it soured up again nicely, though the
taste was not quite the same. I baked off that particular starter,
and descendants, for about three years as I recall.

Anna

Can't guess!

: |

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message >...

> Why are these Bakers still perpetuating non-self-perpetuating starters?
> Can't guess!
>
> : |

Hi Dick,
Because we can, that's why!!! Actually I had heard from more than
one source that these packets gave a good flavor. And since the flavor
is apparently based on organisms, not chemical additives, it would
seem a valid one for sourdough bakers to examine. Another reason,
since I rarely have the opportunity to sample any bread that I don't
bake myself, a standard for sour taste could be helpful. And from this
it follows that if I went to the trouble to get the starter, I would
like to keep it going for as long as I wanted to use it.

Beyond this it's just a novelty, like big-holed rustic bread, or
trying to run red lights before the Polizei Pumpernickel. (Actually I
just got paroled from a long stretch in the Hessen jail for making
Weizenmischbrot without baker's yeast and with caraway seeds.)

--Lisse <~~~~~~ IS she a stoolie for the PUPO?? Tune in next week!

"Lisse Tuerie" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
om...
> "Dick Adams" > wrote in message
>...
>
> > Why are these Bakers still perpetuating non-self-perpetuating starters?
> > Can't guess!
> >
> > : |
>
> Hi Dick,
> Because we can, that's why!!! Actually I had heard from more than
> one source that these packets gave a good flavor. And since the flavor
> is apparently based on organisms, not chemical additives, it would
> seem a valid one for sourdough bakers to examine. Another reason,
> since I rarely have the opportunity to sample any bread that I don't
> bake myself, a standard for sour taste could be helpful. And from this
> it follows that if I went to the trouble to get the starter, I would
> like to keep it going for as long as I wanted to use it.
>
> Beyond this it's just a novelty, like big-holed rustic bread, or
> trying to run red lights before the Polizei Pumpernickel. (Actually I
> just got paroled from a long stretch in the Hessen jail for making
> Weizenmischbrot without baker's yeast and with caraway seeds.)
>
> --Lisse <~~~~~~ IS she a stoolie for the PUPO?? Tune in next week!

Hi Lisse,
did you already hear from "DAS ECHTE"???
Ulrike

(Anna Ault) wrote in message . com>...
> > Hi Anna,
> > Does enough of the original taste persist to make you think that your
> > starter is maintaining the original cultures from the Lalvain product?
> >
> > S. cerevisiae is of course baker's yeast, and the less surviving of
> > this the better, but the L. brevis and L. plantarum colonies, which
> > should provide the flavor in the culture, could be enjoying a new home
> > with compatible wild yeast species!
> >
> > --Lisse
>
>
> Lisse,
>
> What I noticed was that as long as I was maintaining the starter on
> the counter, and feeding it daily, it seemed to stay consistent with
> the original. I noticed a taste change after I switched to keeping it
> in the fridge - it still leavened nicely, but became fairly mild. I
> adjusted the hydration, and it soured up again nicely, though the
> taste was not quite the same. I baked off that particular starter,
> and descendants, for about three years as I recall.
>
> Anna


That makes sense Anna,
If the Lalvain microbiologists were very clever, they would have
chosen or selectively bred lactobacilli that didn't survive cold well,
so that you had to keep buying their product!

I suppose the most important question is whether the taste is
something special enough to be worth trying to keep. Can you describe
it? Did you get the no.2 or the no.4? Maybe I should order a sample,
braving the "beef traces."

--Lisse <~~~~~~~~~~~~ long-term veggie-girl

>
> That makes sense Anna,
> If the Lalvain microbiologists were very clever, they would have
> chosen or selectively bred lactobacilli that didn't survive cold well,
> so that you had to keep buying their product!
>
> I suppose the most important question is whether the taste is
> something special enough to be worth trying to keep. Can you describe
> it? Did you get the no.2 or the no.4? Maybe I should order a sample,
> braving the "beef traces."
>
> --Lisse <~~~~~~~~~~~~ long-term veggie-girl

As I recall, the taste was good. Definitely better then
storebought. No match for what I can get doing a three day build on
my starter these days, but a very nice introduction. And very
convenient.

I believe that the beef trace refers to the medium they grow their
stuff on (I seem to recall someone asking about that at the baking
class I went too that they offered.)

If your interested in trying it you might want to see if KA is
offering a baking class near you -- they give you a free sample packet
and a little cookbook. And the classes are nice.


Anna

(Anna Ault) wrote in message . com>...

> As I recall, the taste was good. Definitely better then
> storebought. No match for what I can get doing a three day build on
> my starter these days, but a very nice introduction. And very
> convenient.
>
> I believe that the beef trace refers to the medium they grow their
> stuff on (I seem to recall someone asking about that at the baking
> class I went too that they offered.)
>
> If your interested in trying it you might want to see if KA is
> offering a baking class near you -- they give you a free sample packet
> and a little cookbook. And the classes are nice.
>
>
> Anna

Thank you Anna,
Yes, I remember now keeping cultures in beef-broth and on blood-agar
plates when I was last in a micro lab, many years ago.

--Lisse

(Anna Ault) wrote in message . com>...

> As I recall, the taste was good. Definitely better then
> storebought. No match for what I can get doing a three day build on
> my starter these days, but a very nice introduction. And very
> convenient.
>
> I believe that the beef trace refers to the medium they grow their
> stuff on (I seem to recall someone asking about that at the baking
> class I went too that they offered.)
>
> If your interested in trying it you might want to see if KA is
> offering a baking class near you -- they give you a free sample packet
> and a little cookbook. And the classes are nice.
>
>
> Anna

Thank you Anna,
Yes, I remember now keeping cultures in beef-broth and on blood-agar
plates when I was last in a micro lab, many years ago.

--Lisse

(Anna Ault) wrote in message . com>...

> As I recall, the taste was good. Definitely better then
> storebought. No match for what I can get doing a three day build on
> my starter these days, but a very nice introduction. And very
> convenient.
>
> I believe that the beef trace refers to the medium they grow their
> stuff on (I seem to recall someone asking about that at the baking
> class I went too that they offered.)
>
> If your interested in trying it you might want to see if KA is
> offering a baking class near you -- they give you a free sample packet
> and a little cookbook. And the classes are nice.
>
>
> Anna

Thank you Anna,
Yes, I remember now keeping cultures in beef-broth and on blood-agar
plates when I was last in a micro lab, many years ago.

--Lisse

>
> That makes sense Anna,
> If the Lalvain microbiologists were very clever, they would have
> chosen or selectively bred lactobacilli that didn't survive cold well,
> so that you had to keep buying their product!
>
> I suppose the most important question is whether the taste is
> something special enough to be worth trying to keep. Can you describe
> it? Did you get the no.2 or the no.4? Maybe I should order a sample,
> braving the "beef traces."
>
> --Lisse <~~~~~~~~~~~~ long-term veggie-girl

As I recall, the taste was good. Definitely better then
storebought. No match for what I can get doing a three day build on
my starter these days, but a very nice introduction. And very
convenient.

I believe that the beef trace refers to the medium they grow their
stuff on (I seem to recall someone asking about that at the baking
class I went too that they offered.)

If your interested in trying it you might want to see if KA is
offering a baking class near you -- they give you a free sample packet
and a little cookbook. And the classes are nice.


Anna

Can't guess!

: |

(Anna Ault) wrote in message . com>...
> > Hi Anna,
> > Does enough of the original taste persist to make you think that your
> > starter is maintaining the original cultures from the Lalvain product?
> >
> > S. cerevisiae is of course baker's yeast, and the less surviving of
> > this the better, but the L. brevis and L. plantarum colonies, which
> > should provide the flavor in the culture, could be enjoying a new home
> > with compatible wild yeast species!
> >
> > --Lisse
>
>
> Lisse,
>
> What I noticed was that as long as I was maintaining the starter on
> the counter, and feeding it daily, it seemed to stay consistent with
> the original. I noticed a taste change after I switched to keeping it
> in the fridge - it still leavened nicely, but became fairly mild. I
> adjusted the hydration, and it soured up again nicely, though the
> taste was not quite the same. I baked off that particular starter,
> and descendants, for about three years as I recall.
>
> Anna


That makes sense Anna,
If the Lalvain microbiologists were very clever, they would have
chosen or selectively bred lactobacilli that didn't survive cold well,
so that you had to keep buying their product!

I suppose the most important question is whether the taste is
something special enough to be worth trying to keep. Can you describe
it? Did you get the no.2 or the no.4? Maybe I should order a sample,
braving the "beef traces."

--Lisse <~~~~~~~~~~~~ long-term veggie-girl

(Anna Ault) wrote in message . com>...
> > Hi Anna,
> > Does enough of the original taste persist to make you think that your
> > starter is maintaining the original cultures from the Lalvain product?
> >
> > S. cerevisiae is of course baker's yeast, and the less surviving of
> > this the better, but the L. brevis and L. plantarum colonies, which
> > should provide the flavor in the culture, could be enjoying a new home
> > with compatible wild yeast species!
> >
> > --Lisse
>
>
> Lisse,
>
> What I noticed was that as long as I was maintaining the starter on
> the counter, and feeding it daily, it seemed to stay consistent with
> the original. I noticed a taste change after I switched to keeping it
> in the fridge - it still leavened nicely, but became fairly mild. I
> adjusted the hydration, and it soured up again nicely, though the
> taste was not quite the same. I baked off that particular starter,
> and descendants, for about three years as I recall.
>
> Anna


That makes sense Anna,
If the Lalvain microbiologists were very clever, they would have
chosen or selectively bred lactobacilli that didn't survive cold well,
so that you had to keep buying their product!

I suppose the most important question is whether the taste is
something special enough to be worth trying to keep. Can you describe
it? Did you get the no.2 or the no.4? Maybe I should order a sample,
braving the "beef traces."

--Lisse <~~~~~~~~~~~~ long-term veggie-girl

Kenneth > wrote in message >. ..
> On 13 Nov 2004 16:41:01 -0800, (Anna
> Ault) wrote:
>
> > It is possible to maintain the starter you make from the little
> >envelopes they send you - that was how I made my first starter. Now,
> >the flavour did change a bit after a month or so, but that happens to
> >starters in my hands.
>
> Howdy,
>
> I believe that you would have had the same result if you
> used flour and water and none of the KA "starter."
>
> All the best,


I doubt that, if what you mean is that I would have had the same
results with making a straight flour and water starter and baking with
it. If I mix up a paste of flour and water on Sunday night at 7 pm, I
cannot expect it to leaven bread at 10 am on Monday. With the
addition of 1/4 tsp of the KA LA-4 powder, it does (and makes a
tolerable good bread, at that.)

Per the packet of this stuff I have in my fridge, it contains
Lactobacillus brevis, Lactobacillus plantarum, and Saccharomyces
cerevisiae (type San Francisco). Those are all the ingredients
listed.

Now, if what you meant is that after a month or so I would have had
the same result of the flavour changing -- absolutely. That happens
to me all the time. It's part of what I like about baking with
sourdough.

AnnaEA

Well, lets look:

case a, dead material:
Assuming there are souring agents in this powder, it would give sour
environment adjusted ( = sourdough ) organisms a head start.

case b, alive material:
With or without souring agents, sourdough typical organisms would
already be there.

In both cases this should give a better result with the powder than with
plain flour and water at some level. If it's detectable is another question.

No argument can convince a true believer. That's what believes are for. And
it keeps things stable over generations:
http://thechrisproject.com/images/map_nowvsthen.jpg

Samartha


At 06:17 PM 11/13/2004, Kenneth wrote:

>Howdy,
>
>I believe that you would have had the same result if you
>used flour and water and none of the KA "starter."
>
>All the best,
>
>--
>Kenneth
>
>If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address