I thought I would give a jolt to this moribund group and tell you what I
have been doing lately with my attempts to start into sourdough...

I began a starter about three weeks ago and even tried turning the
starter into bread loaves twice, with very poor results. The first loaf was
a disaster with no lift at all. And the second loaf was a tiny bit better
with only a little lift.

But today I started a pizza dough with the sourdough starter and it's
fairly edible, if still a little cracker-like.

I'm keeping my starter on the counter-top and feeding it about every
other day with about 2 tsp of flour and 2 tsp of un-chlorinated water. For
the first time, today, I saw a few bubbles emerging from the sludge. That's
why I decided to try using it in a pizza dough.


I made the pizza dough out of:
flour 125 g (about 3/4 cup)
1/2 tsp salt
1 tsp sugar - stir dry ingredients together
1 TBL olive oil
about 1/4 cup of sourdough starter slurry
up to 1/4 cup of un-chlorinated water

Add only about half the water at first and mix in a small bowl with a
spoon. The mixture should look very dry with lots of dry flour in the bowl.
Place a plastic wrap on the bowl and put in a warm oven, about 90-100
degrees F.

After 10 minutes take the bowl out of the warming oven and knead the
dough. If it still has too much dry flour not forming into dough, then add
a little more of the un-chlorinated water. Then add a dash of vegetable oil
to the bowl and swab the side of the bowl with the dough ball. Cover again
and place in warming oven.

Knead again after another 10 minutes.

Knead again after another ten minutes. By now the dough should be taking
on a "plastic" appearance with the gluten forming. But it should be fairly
dry to the touch and the oil in the bowl should coat the dough ball to keep
it from sticking to your hands.

Continue rising in warm oven (90-100 F) for another 2 hours or so. You
should see tiny bubbles appearing in the dough. (For yeast dough you should
see the volume doubled at this point, I don't know if sourdough is active
enough to double.)

Roll out dough on a floured board to pizza size. Let rise another 1-1/2
to 2 hours. You should see tiny bubbles (at least) on the surface of the
pizza dough.

I'm still working with this sourdough starter so I'm hoping that, with a
little more feeding, my starter will get more active and I'll have a
greater rise, enough to do a bread loaf, I hope.

Jer in Oregon
Apr 29, 2013

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:55:19 -0700, jw > wrote:

> I thought I would give a jolt to this moribund group and tell you what I
>have been doing lately with my attempts to start into sourdough...
>
> I began a starter about three weeks ago and even tried turning the
>starter into bread loaves twice, with very poor results. The first loaf was
>a disaster with no lift at all. And the second loaf was a tiny bit better
>with only a little lift.
>
> But today I started a pizza dough with the sourdough starter and it's
>fairly edible, if still a little cracker-like.
>
> I'm keeping my starter on the counter-top and feeding it about every
>other day with about 2 tsp of flour and 2 tsp of un-chlorinated water. For
>the first time, today, I saw a few bubbles emerging from the sludge.

It's nowhere ready. It should be climbing up the sides of the
jar before you use it, and even them I advise a "cleansing" to totally
eliminate any nasties that might have stayed behind.
Are you using chlorinated water ? Don't.

Here, this should help, although it's not an exact science:

Starting the starter:

1/2 flour
1/2 water

24 hours in a warm place

Throw half away

1/2 flour
1/2 water

etc

After 5-7 days, it should be very active. If it smells of
baby's puke halfway along the line, that's fine. A gunpowder smell is
bad ... restart.

To "clean":

Put it away in the fridge door for a week, so it dies down. A
yellow watery layer will form, should have a fruity smell.
Take about a teaspoonful and mix that with 1/2 cup of flour
and 1/2 cup of water. Stir to a stodge. Put is in a warm place. It
should be very active in 12 hours.
Use glass jars with plastic tops, and never tighten them,
might explode.
FWIW
[]'s

PS quantities are around two tablespoons of flour for each
"renew", in the "starting the starter" phase. Don't forget the
organisms are in the flour, so no sterilizing your flour before you
begin, just use over the counter white flour.
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 20:16:00 -0300, Shadow wrote:

> On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:55:19 -0700, jw > wrote:
>
>> [14 quoted lines suppressed]
>
> It's nowhere ready. It should be climbing up the sides of the
> jar before you use it, and even them I advise a "cleansing" to totally
> eliminate any nasties that might have stayed behind.
> Are you using chlorinated water ? Don't.
>
> Here, this should help, although it's not an exact science:
>
> Starting the starter:
>
> 1/2 flour
> 1/2 water
>
> 24 hours in a warm place
>
> Throw half away
>
> 1/2 flour
> 1/2 water
>
> etc
>
> After 5-7 days, it should be very active. If it smells of
> baby's puke halfway along the line, that's fine. A gunpowder smell is
> bad ... restart.
>
> To "clean":
>
> Put it away in the fridge door for a week, so it dies down. A
> yellow watery layer will form, should have a fruity smell.
> Take about a teaspoonful and mix that with 1/2 cup of flour
> and 1/2 cup of water. Stir to a stodge. Put is in a warm place. It
> should be very active in 12 hours.
> Use glass jars with plastic tops, and never tighten them,
> might explode.
> FWIW
> []'s
>
> PS quantities are around two tablespoons of flour for each
> "renew", in the "starting the starter" phase. Don't forget the
> organisms are in the flour, so no sterilizing your flour before you
> begin, just use over the counter white flour.

Thank you for the prompt response. I will keep feeding the starter for
another week or so before trying another recipe. Thanks!

On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 08:55:26 -0700, jw > wrote:

>Thank you for the prompt response. I will keep feeding the starter for
>another week or so before trying another recipe. Thanks!

And ....
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On Wed, 08 May 2013 18:49:35 -0300, Shadow wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 08:55:26 -0700, jw > wrote:
>
>>Thank you for the prompt response. I will keep feeding the starter for
>>another week or so before trying another recipe. Thanks!
>
> And .... []'s

I tried it again on Tuesday and Wednesday. I added the flour I needed for
a small bread loaf and enough (unchlorinated) water to make a dough and
let it rise overnight. Following morning it still had not risen enough
(it's supposed to at least double) so I sprinkled on half a teaspoon of
baker's yeast, kneaded again and set it warming in the window. A few
hours later it had enough rise to form into a loaf. Let that rise and
finally baked it to get a so-so loaf of bread. Not as light as pure yeast
bread, but it does have a little of the sourdough flavor.
I'm not very happy with this little experiment. On the whole I'm
thinking I'll go back to just baking normal bread. The sourdough flavor
is a little metallic tasting and the crumb is sort of tough, even when
the bread was fresh out of the oven.
I'll keep checking on this newsgroup, and I've saved some of the
sourdough starter in a jar on the counter in case I want to try it again.
But, right now I'd have to say that I'm "soured" on the whole experiment.

On Fri, 10 May 2013 00:27:27 +0000 (UTC), jerry >
wrote:

>On Wed, 08 May 2013 18:49:35 -0300, Shadow wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 08:55:26 -0700, jw > wrote:
>>
>>>Thank you for the prompt response. I will keep feeding the starter for
>>>another week or so before trying another recipe. Thanks!
>>
>> And .... []'s
>
>I tried it again on Tuesday and Wednesday. I added the flour I needed for
>a small bread loaf and enough (unchlorinated) water to make a dough and
>let it rise overnight. Following morning it still had not risen enough
>(it's supposed to at least double) so I sprinkled on half a teaspoon of
>baker's yeast, kneaded again and set it warming in the window. A few
>hours later it had enough rise to form into a loaf. Let that rise and
>finally baked it to get a so-so loaf of bread. Not as light as pure yeast
>bread, but it does have a little of the sourdough flavor.
> I'm not very happy with this little experiment. On the whole I'm
>thinking I'll go back to just baking normal bread. The sourdough flavor
>is a little metallic tasting and the crumb is sort of tough, even when
>the bread was fresh out of the oven.
> I'll keep checking on this newsgroup, and I've saved some of the
>sourdough starter in a jar on the counter in case I want to try it again.
>But, right now I'd have to say that I'm "soured" on the whole experiment.


Please keep in mind that a natural (no commercial yeast) starter can
be used in two very different ways - one is to make "sourdough bread,"
known for its tangy taste, and the other is as a straight substitute
for commercial yeast for any recipe for which commercial yeast is a
component.


Shadow's advice to you was straightforward and on the level. Each of
us who find success with starters has our own method of creation and
maintenance, so my advice may vary a bit.

Creating a stable starter takes time and a little knowledge. There are
so many sites online that offer advice that it is often frustrating to
see how many of them give conflicting information. Allow me to
conflict with a few of them.

If your dough is not getting proper rise from the starter you have, it
means your starter is not ready to use (it could mean your
dough-making is out of whack, too, but that is not as likely). It can
take a while - 2 weeks or even more to get the perfect combo of
critters to live well together and provide the oomph you need for your
baking. Once it is firmly established, it'll be tough as nails and
almost indestructible except by excessive heat or derelict
abandonment.

You may try to revive and revitalize what you have started, or you may
want to begin again. Flour and water are cheap.

You can start with white, unbleached AP flour and/or with rye. Some
start with whole wheat, but since I, myself, have never done that, I
cannot comment upon it.,

My own method:

Start with 2 heaping spoons of flour - the AP and/or the rye. Mix with
an equal amount of water. Stir, cover, and leave out at room temp for
24 hrs. (some folks refresh every 1`2 hours. You can do that if you
want)

The next day, scrape out and discard what is in your container,
leaving only the dregs of your previous mixture in there. Once again,
add 2 heaping spoons of flour and equivalent water. Stir, cover, and
leave out at room temp for 24 hrs.

Lather, rinse, repeat for a good 2 weeks - if you are going to be away
for a day or more, put the container in the fridge and pick up where
you left off when you come back home.

Try this and come back and let me know how it is going. What you
should have after 2 weeks is a mixture that starts to bubble within a
short time after you mix it. If you have kept things at room temp -
not too hot, not too cool -this will be borne out.

IF IF IF it does not work by 2 weeks, change out your flour. Go get
yourself some fancier brand, or switch to rye from plain white . (you
can convert any stable rye starter to all white within 2 days, by
simple refreshments as indicated above, should you choose).

I am no genius. I am no chemist. What I am is a huge fan of natural
starters. I have several distinct and interesting ones in my fridge at
all times..

Successfully making bread with natural leavening is a wholly separate
set of skills than creating the starter alone. Such breads thrive on
long, cool ferments, often in direct contradiction to the most common
bread recipes that use commercial yeasts.

Sourdough bread - that tangy loaf - is a specialized type of bread all
by itself. It might need pre-ferments that can go on for 1 -3 days
before a final dough mix. It can be tricky to master and again, is not
directly related to the starter itself.


All of the links below show my breads made with natural starters. This
isn't bragging rights, just showing you it can be done with plain
flour and water starters. I don't post many pics over at flickr these
days. Just got out of the habit, I guess, but feel free to poke
around at the photos there.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2564880...7625306552655/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2564880...7614640840416/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2564880...7615947969429/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2564880...7622611535472/


Good luck.

Boron

On Fri, 10 May 2013 11:24:33 -0400, Boron Elgar wrote:

> http://www.flickr.com/photos/2564880...5192751638/in/
set-72157625306552655/
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/2564880...7614640840416/
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/2564880...7615947969429/
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/2564880...7622611535472/
>
>
> Good luck.
>
> Boron

thanks Boron for the good words and the links. I saved a bit of my last
loaf attempt as starter and fed it yesterday and I'm quite impressed at
the amount of bubbles it produced in the six hours or so after I fed it.
I'm keeping it around for another attempt because it's looking a lot more
active than the previous starters. I'm wondering if the hot weather we're
having is improving the starter situation? It's now about 75-80F in the
day inside my kitchen, and when I began this experiment a month ago it
was only in the 60's during the day most days.
I'll try something again in another few days. Like you said, flour and
water are cheap!

On Sat, 11 May 2013 02:52:28 +0000 (UTC), jerry >
wrote:

>thanks Boron for the good words and the links. I saved a bit of my last
>loaf attempt as starter and fed it yesterday and I'm quite impressed at
>the amount of bubbles it produced in the six hours or so after I fed it.

I hope that didn't include the baker's yeast. The baker's
yeast will not survive in the sourdough acidity.

>I'm keeping it around for another attempt because it's looking a lot more
>active than the previous starters. I'm wondering if the hot weather we're
>having is improving the starter situation? It's now about 75-80F in the
>day inside my kitchen, and when I began this experiment a month ago it
>was only in the 60's during the day most days.
> I'll try something again in another few days. Like you said, flour and
>water are cheap!

60F ???? Ugghh! Are you trying to kill the lovely little
critters ?
82 is about ideal. It WILL work with less or more, but aim for
82
Please use centigrade ? That's 28 centigrade, aprox.

Use this if you don't like a calculator:
http://temperatureconversion.us/
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On Fri, 10 May 2013 11:24:33 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

>All of the links below show my breads made with natural starters. This
>isn't bragging rights, just showing you it can be done with plain
>flour and water starters. I don't post many pics over at flickr these
>days. Just got out of the habit, I guess, but feel free to poke
>around at the photos there.
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/2564880...7625306552655/
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/2564880...7614640840416/
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/2564880...7615947969429/
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/2564880...7622611535472/

Nice pictures. You are an artist !


I'm a pan-bread / pizza-crust enthusiast myself. Use Teflon
so they don't stick. Taste is good.
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On Sat, 11 May 2013 10:27:39 -0300, Shadow > wrote:

>On Fri, 10 May 2013 11:24:33 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:
>
>>All of the links below show my breads made with natural starters. This
>>isn't bragging rights, just showing you it can be done with plain
>>flour and water starters. I don't post many pics over at flickr these
>>days. Just got out of the habit, I guess, but feel free to poke
>>around at the photos there.
>>
>>http://www.flickr.com/photos/2564880...7625306552655/
>>
>>http://www.flickr.com/photos/2564880...7614640840416/
>>
>>http://www.flickr.com/photos/2564880...7615947969429/
>>
>>http://www.flickr.com/photos/2564880...7622611535472/
>
> Nice pictures. You are an artist !
>

Thank you very much. You are most kind.
>
> I'm a pan-bread / pizza-crust enthusiast myself. Use Teflon
>so they don't stick. Taste is good.
> []'s


Home made pizza was the dish of the day as I gathered yesterday with
my grown kids for a Mother's Day celebration. I started the dough
Friday night.

Boron

On Mon, 13 May 2013 10:51:46 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

>On Sat, 11 May 2013 10:27:39 -0300, Shadow > wrote:
>
......
>> I'm a pan-bread / pizza-crust enthusiast myself. Use Teflon
>>so they don't stick. Taste is good.
......
>
>Home made pizza was the dish of the day as I gathered yesterday with
>my grown kids for a Mother's Day celebration. I started the dough
>Friday night.
>

I make 7 crusts and half-bake them, allow to cool, then freeze
in plastic bags, minus the pans.
I only have 7 Teflon pizza pans. Hehe.
Top them and bake for 10-15 minutes when necessary. Lovely
crunchy, thin pastry. Nothing like the gooey thick fat-ridden stuff we
can buy locally.
Same with the loaves. Bake, remove from pans, allow to cool at
least 6 hours, slice then freeze. Crusty ends are consumed while
slicing .... Take a couple of slices out when needed and allow to
defrost before making toast. or consuming "in natura".
[]'s

--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012