Just ran across the group this morning.

I acquired some of Carl's starter a few months back. Rehydrated using
well water (no chemicals) and starter is fairly active. Store in the
frig and use it every couple weeks. (Diabetic so have to watch those
carbs. ) Last couple loaves made have turned out real nice. Dough
rises nicely, loaves look great and texture is nice, no voids. Bread
tastes good but NO sour taste.

When I get ready to use, take starter from frig in the evening. Can see a
lot of hooch on the top and strong acidic/alcohol smell. Feed the starter
and let stand overnight. Start the bread (using Alaska sourdough bread
recipe and no commercial yest) the next morning and I'm ready to bake
about diner time. Recipe has you start with just the addition of flour
and water and let stand. After it has risen at least 2x, mix in rest of
ingredients and form loaf. Dough has risen abt 3-4x when I bake.

Thinking the lack of sour taste is saying I'm either doing or not doing
something right. Any advise?

TIA


--
Mickey

On Mar 6, 1:31*pm, mickey > wrote:
> Just ran across the group this morning.
>
> I acquired some of Carl's starter a few months back. *Rehydrated using *
> well water (no chemicals) and starter is fairly active. *Store in the *
> frig *and use it every couple weeks. *(Diabetic so have to watch those *
> carbs. ) Last couple loaves made have turned out real nice. *Dough *
> rises nicely, loaves look great and texture is nice, no voids. *Bread *
> tastes good but NO sour taste.
>
> When I get ready to use, take starter from frig in the evening. *Can see a *
> lot of hooch on the top and strong acidic/alcohol smell. *Feed the starter *
> and let stand overnight. *Start the bread (using Alaska sourdough bread *
> recipe and no commercial yest) the next morning and I'm ready to bake *
> about diner time. *Recipe has you start with just the addition of flour *
> and water and let stand. *After it has risen at least 2x, mix in rest of *
> ingredients and form loaf. *Dough has risen abt 3-4x when I bake.
>
> Thinking the lack of sour taste is saying I'm either doing or not doing *
> something right. *Any advise?
>
> TIA
>
> --
> Mickey

I started out with Carls starter and I had the same problem concerning
the lack of sour taste. Come to find out, it's just not a very sour,
sourdough. I have some dried San Francisco Starter if you would like
to give that a try. Contact me off list and I can send you some.

Paul
The sourdough cyclist

On Sun, 07 Mar 2010 06:05:43 -0800, Fl Randonneur >
wrote:

> On Mar 6, 1:31 pm, mickey > wrote:
>> Just ran across the group this morning.
>>
>> I acquired some of Carl's starter a few months back. Rehydrated using
>> well water (no chemicals) and starter is fairly active. Store in the
>> frig and use it every couple weeks. (Diabetic so have to watch those
>> carbs. ) Last couple loaves made have turned out real nice. Dough
>> rises nicely, loaves look great and texture is nice, no voids. Bread
>> tastes good but NO sour taste.
>>
>> When I get ready to use, take starter from frig in the evening. Can
>> see a lot of hooch on the top and strong acidic/alcohol smell. Feed
>> the starter and let stand overnight. Start the bread (using Alaska
>> sourdough bread recipe and no commercial yest) the next morning and
>> I'm ready to bake about diner time. Recipe has you start with just the
>> addition of flour and water and let stand. After it has risen at
>> least 2x, mix in rest of ingredients and form loaf. Dough has risen
>> abt 3-4x when I bake.
>>
>> Thinking the lack of sour taste is saying I'm either doing or not doing
>> something right. Any advise?
>>
>> TIA
>>
>> --
>> Mickey
>
> I started out with Carls starter and I had the same problem concerning
> the lack of sour taste. Come to find out, it's just not a very sour,
> sourdough. I have some dried San Francisco Starter if you would like
> to give that a try. Contact me off list and I can send you some.
>
> Paul
> The sourdough cyclist

That would be very kind of you to send a small amount of your starter. I
also wrote to Friends of Carl's asking the same question. Received a nice
long reply and is as follows:

"If your bread rises well and tastes good, you are ahead of the crowd.
Some commercial bakeries add vinegar or citric acid to make their SF
sourdough bread taste sour. However, you can increase the sour taste of
natural sourdough bread.

In general, you should always begin the process with fresh active starter
(Rye excepted) and it sounds like you are doing that. The sour taste in
sourdough bread is developed at the end of the fermentation in the final
rise. The trick is extending the fermentation without getting a loaf that
collapses. That takes practice and sometimes luck.

Also, generally speaking, extending the time that the flour is wet
improves the flavor of a plain dough bread.
Some retard the dough in the refrigerator for a time to extend the
fermentation time. Some allow a second rise before shaping the loaf.
However, the sour component is enhanced by a warm final rise extended to
the point just before it becomes so weak it falls down on you.


Starting from the Alaska recipe, I would try this:
1. leave out the baking soda. This will make the rise totally dependant
on the sourdough culture.
2.Cut back on the sugar. Maybe to 1/4 cup.
3. Add Two or three Tablespoons of rye flour per loaf.
4.rearange your baking schedule so that you can leave the dough in the
refrigerator over night.
4a. after mixing the dough let it ferment for an hour or so and then
refrigerate.
4b. mix the dough, let it rise, fold it down and then put it in the
refrigerator overnight for a second rise
and shape in the morning.

In all cases try to let the final loaves proof a bit longer. you will lose
"oven spring" but you should get improved taste if you don't go too far
and end up with a sour brick for a door stop.

I would make one change at a time so you can see if you are going in the
right direction.

Good luck.


Maybe this little bit of info will be of help to others. Sounds like it
could be valid. If the starter has a strong acid/sour smell and taste,
I'd think that should be passed on to the batch of dough. Additional time
for the dough to ferment just may be the ticket. Being a newbie at this
I'm in no position to argue.

--
Mickey

Fl Randonneur wrote:
> On Mar 6, 1:31 pm, mickey > wrote:
>
>> Just ran across the group this morning.
>>
>> I acquired some of Carl's starter a few months back. Rehydrated using
>> well water (no chemicals) and starter is fairly active. Store in the
>> frig and use it every couple weeks. (Diabetic so have to watch those
>> carbs. ) Last couple loaves made have turned out real nice. Dough
>> rises nicely, loaves look great and texture is nice, no voids. Bread
>> tastes good but NO sour taste.
>>
>> When I get ready to use, take starter from frig in the evening. Can see a
>> lot of hooch on the top and strong acidic/alcohol smell. Feed the starter
>> and let stand overnight. Start the bread (using Alaska sourdough bread
>> recipe and no commercial yest) the next morning and I'm ready to bake
>> about diner time. Recipe has you start with just the addition of flour
>> and water and let stand. After it has risen at least 2x, mix in rest of
>> ingredients and form loaf. Dough has risen abt 3-4x when I bake.
>>
>> Thinking the lack of sour taste is saying I'm either doing or not doing
>> something right. Any advise?
>>
>> TIA
>>
>> --
>> Mickey
>>
>
> I started out with Carls starter and I had the same problem concerning
> the lack of sour taste. Come to find out, it's just not a very sour,
> sourdough. I have some dried San Francisco Starter if you would like
> to give that a try. Contact me off list and I can send you some.
>
> Paul
>
It's an old rumor that the Carls is not getting sour - tested and found
to be WRONG!

There you have it with pH:

http://samartha.net/images/SD/BYDATE/02-01-26/

If you are not familiar with pH in a sourdough context - below 4.0 _is_
sour, lower limit, where they (LB's) are stopping to produce is 3.6 and
may be going down to 3.2 in some strains (don't pin me down on that -
3.2 - it's been a while).

You sure don't want to run your starter to the lowest in sourness it can
go because the critters are shutting down. What you want to be looking
for is starter vitality - high germ count and high activity. In that
condition, the critters are producing and not when they are shut down.

What the previous poster wrote - hooch and strong acidic smell with one
refresh sitting for 12 hours. Looks to me the starter is not treated
very well.

If your starter growing procedure is the cause - which it probably is -
just changing the starter won't do the trick
Look at your temperature and adjust it to a range where the LB's are
growing better, run a few refreshments there so the LB ration will increase.
Also watch your feeding ratios - you gotta be geometric - flour content
- at least doubling, tripling the total flour content per feeding.

Sam