I'm new at creating a "new starter" from "The basics by S. John Ross to use
for bread making....my question is do I stir the starter daily ? or just let
it ferment (every day)for the time it takes to have a bubbly froth....?? new
at this Ginny..

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:42:28 GMT, "Ginny" > wrote:

>I'm new at creating a "new starter" from "The basics by S. John Ross to use
>for bread making....my question is do I stir the starter daily ? or just let
>it ferment (every day)for the time it takes to have a bubbly froth....?? new
>at this Ginny..
>

Howdy,

No need to stir... Also, if you did, it would be nearly impossible to
know when it was "frothy."

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:42:28 GMT, "Ginny" > wrote:

>I'm new at creating a "new starter" from "The basics by S. John Ross to use
>for bread making....my question is do I stir the starter daily ? or just let
>it ferment (every day)for the time it takes to have a bubbly froth....?? new
>at this Ginny..
>

Howdy,

No need to stir... Also, if you did, it would be nearly impossible to
know when it was "frothy."

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Hi Kenneth - it's me again - contrary opinion as usual ;-)

There are several aspects to it.

If you look at my web site with growing your own starter from scratch
(http://samartha.net/SD/ ) -isch, you may get some more ideas about it.

A couple of points:

A.) Activity monitoring

To observe the current activity, it's probably a good idea to punch it down
in regular intervals, if it does not overflow and one _has_ to in order to
avoid a mess.

It all depends on hydration, of cause - too high and it won't rise, too
low, and it won't rise either; and on material - fine white flour behaves
differently from coarser whole grain.

That said, there is a limited capacity to rise in a container and once it
has risen to it's capacity (if it does not overflow), it won't rise anymore
despite gas development. So, how would one know if it still huffs or if it
stopped? Solution: punchdown. Gas is taken out, the capacity to observe
bubble development or rise and with it to get an idea about activity is
regained.

B.) Oxygenation

Organisms benefit from oxygen. It is not necessary and feasible with
sourdough baking but it is an undisputable fact that it helps. When growing
a starter, extra boost from added air helps spurring growth and this is the
basic direction this thing moves: promote growth, not retard.

C.) Nutrition supply

The winning sourdough organisms coming out of this process are not able to
move on their own. Stirring at regular intervals moves nutritions around
and promotes growth of desired organisms.

The points are not only helpful and apply to growing starters from scratch
but also for growing starters or "pre ferments" for making. When making
final dough, punchdown also can improve the dough structure besides
shuffling the nutrients around.

That does not mean it won't work without stirring.

Samartha




At 04:48 PM 10/19/2004, you wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:42:28 GMT, "Ginny" > wrote:
>
> >I'm new at creating a "new starter" from "The basics by S. John Ross to use
> >for bread making....my question is do I stir the starter daily ? or just let
> >it ferment (every day)for the time it takes to have a bubbly froth....?? new
> >at this Ginny..
> >
>
>Howdy,
>
>No need to stir... Also, if you did, it would be nearly impossible to
>know when it was "frothy."
>
>All the best,
>
>--
>Kenneth
>
>If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>_______________________________________________
>Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

>http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough

Hi Kenneth - it's me again - contrary opinion as usual ;-)

There are several aspects to it.

If you look at my web site with growing your own starter from scratch
(http://samartha.net/SD/ ) -isch, you may get some more ideas about it.

A couple of points:

A.) Activity monitoring

To observe the current activity, it's probably a good idea to punch it down
in regular intervals, if it does not overflow and one _has_ to in order to
avoid a mess.

It all depends on hydration, of cause - too high and it won't rise, too
low, and it won't rise either; and on material - fine white flour behaves
differently from coarser whole grain.

That said, there is a limited capacity to rise in a container and once it
has risen to it's capacity (if it does not overflow), it won't rise anymore
despite gas development. So, how would one know if it still huffs or if it
stopped? Solution: punchdown. Gas is taken out, the capacity to observe
bubble development or rise and with it to get an idea about activity is
regained.

B.) Oxygenation

Organisms benefit from oxygen. It is not necessary and feasible with
sourdough baking but it is an undisputable fact that it helps. When growing
a starter, extra boost from added air helps spurring growth and this is the
basic direction this thing moves: promote growth, not retard.

C.) Nutrition supply

The winning sourdough organisms coming out of this process are not able to
move on their own. Stirring at regular intervals moves nutritions around
and promotes growth of desired organisms.

The points are not only helpful and apply to growing starters from scratch
but also for growing starters or "pre ferments" for making. When making
final dough, punchdown also can improve the dough structure besides
shuffling the nutrients around.

That does not mean it won't work without stirring.

Samartha




At 04:48 PM 10/19/2004, you wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:42:28 GMT, "Ginny" > wrote:
>
> >I'm new at creating a "new starter" from "The basics by S. John Ross to use
> >for bread making....my question is do I stir the starter daily ? or just let
> >it ferment (every day)for the time it takes to have a bubbly froth....?? new
> >at this Ginny..
> >
>
>Howdy,
>
>No need to stir... Also, if you did, it would be nearly impossible to
>know when it was "frothy."
>
>All the best,
>
>--
>Kenneth
>
>If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>_______________________________________________
>Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

>http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:10:08 -0600, Samartha
> wrote:

>Hi Kenneth - it's me again - contrary opinion as usual ;-)
>
>There are several aspects to it.
>
>If you look at my web site with growing your own starter from scratch
>(http://samartha.net/SD/ ) -isch, you may get some more ideas about it.
>
>A couple of points:
>
>A.) Activity monitoring
>
>To observe the current activity, it's probably a good idea to punch it down
>in regular intervals, if it does not overflow and one _has_ to in order to
>avoid a mess.
>
>It all depends on hydration, of cause - too high and it won't rise, too
>low, and it won't rise either; and on material - fine white flour behaves
>differently from coarser whole grain.
>
>That said, there is a limited capacity to rise in a container and once it
>has risen to it's capacity (if it does not overflow), it won't rise anymore
>despite gas development. So, how would one know if it still huffs or if it
>stopped? Solution: punchdown. Gas is taken out, the capacity to observe
>bubble development or rise and with it to get an idea about activity is
>regained.
>
>B.) Oxygenation
>
>Organisms benefit from oxygen. It is not necessary and feasible with
>sourdough baking but it is an undisputable fact that it helps. When growing
>a starter, extra boost from added air helps spurring growth and this is the
>basic direction this thing moves: promote growth, not retard.
>
>C.) Nutrition supply
>
>The winning sourdough organisms coming out of this process are not able to
>move on their own. Stirring at regular intervals moves nutritions around
>and promotes growth of desired organisms.
>
>The points are not only helpful and apply to growing starters from scratch
>but also for growing starters or "pre ferments" for making. When making
>final dough, punchdown also can improve the dough structure besides
>shuffling the nutrients around.
>
>That does not mean it won't work without stirring.
>
>Samartha
>
>
>
>
>At 04:48 PM 10/19/2004, you wrote:
>>On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:42:28 GMT, "Ginny" > wrote:
>>
>> >I'm new at creating a "new starter" from "The basics by S. John Ross to use
>> >for bread making....my question is do I stir the starter daily ? or just let
>> >it ferment (every day)for the time it takes to have a bubbly froth....?? new
>> >at this Ginny..
>> >
>>
>>Howdy,
>>
>>No need to stir... Also, if you did, it would be nearly impossible to
>>know when it was "frothy."
>>
>>All the best,
>>
>>--
>>Kenneth
>>
>>If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>>______________________________________________ _
>>Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

>>http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough


Hi Samartha,

As always, your comments make great sense...

(Please don't top-post... It is maddening enough to try to understand
some of these threads without having to read:

Post 5
Post 2
Post 1
Post 3
Post 4)

Sincere thanks,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:10:08 -0600, Samartha
> wrote:

>Hi Kenneth - it's me again - contrary opinion as usual ;-)
>
>There are several aspects to it.
>
>If you look at my web site with growing your own starter from scratch
>(http://samartha.net/SD/ ) -isch, you may get some more ideas about it.
>
>A couple of points:
>
>A.) Activity monitoring
>
>To observe the current activity, it's probably a good idea to punch it down
>in regular intervals, if it does not overflow and one _has_ to in order to
>avoid a mess.
>
>It all depends on hydration, of cause - too high and it won't rise, too
>low, and it won't rise either; and on material - fine white flour behaves
>differently from coarser whole grain.
>
>That said, there is a limited capacity to rise in a container and once it
>has risen to it's capacity (if it does not overflow), it won't rise anymore
>despite gas development. So, how would one know if it still huffs or if it
>stopped? Solution: punchdown. Gas is taken out, the capacity to observe
>bubble development or rise and with it to get an idea about activity is
>regained.
>
>B.) Oxygenation
>
>Organisms benefit from oxygen. It is not necessary and feasible with
>sourdough baking but it is an undisputable fact that it helps. When growing
>a starter, extra boost from added air helps spurring growth and this is the
>basic direction this thing moves: promote growth, not retard.
>
>C.) Nutrition supply
>
>The winning sourdough organisms coming out of this process are not able to
>move on their own. Stirring at regular intervals moves nutritions around
>and promotes growth of desired organisms.
>
>The points are not only helpful and apply to growing starters from scratch
>but also for growing starters or "pre ferments" for making. When making
>final dough, punchdown also can improve the dough structure besides
>shuffling the nutrients around.
>
>That does not mean it won't work without stirring.
>
>Samartha
>
>
>
>
>At 04:48 PM 10/19/2004, you wrote:
>>On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:42:28 GMT, "Ginny" > wrote:
>>
>> >I'm new at creating a "new starter" from "The basics by S. John Ross to use
>> >for bread making....my question is do I stir the starter daily ? or just let
>> >it ferment (every day)for the time it takes to have a bubbly froth....?? new
>> >at this Ginny..
>> >
>>
>>Howdy,
>>
>>No need to stir... Also, if you did, it would be nearly impossible to
>>know when it was "frothy."
>>
>>All the best,
>>
>>--
>>Kenneth
>>
>>If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>>______________________________________________ _
>>Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

>>http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough


Hi Samartha,

As always, your comments make great sense...

(Please don't top-post... It is maddening enough to try to understand
some of these threads without having to read:

Post 5
Post 2
Post 1
Post 3
Post 4)

Sincere thanks,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

> Hi Samartha,
>
> As always, your comments make great sense...
>
> (Please don't top-post... It is maddening enough to try to understand
> some of these threads without having to read:
>
> Post 5
> Post 2
> Post 1
> Post 3
> Post 4)
>
> Sincere thanks,

Or, *always* top-post. With long, much-quoted, recent discussions, it
makes sense to read the latest at the top, without having to scroll.
Standard is bottom though, I agree.

Dave

Kenneth wrote:

> Hi Samartha,
>
> As always, your comments make great sense...
>
> (Please don't top-post... It is maddening enough to try to understand
> some of these threads without having to read:
>
> Post 5
> Post 2
> Post 1
> Post 3
> Post 4)
>
> Sincere thanks,

Or, *always* top-post. With long, much-quoted, recent discussions, it
makes sense to read the latest at the top, without having to scroll.
Standard is bottom though, I agree.

Dave

"Samartha" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.1098245469.14661.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.c=
om...

> [ ... ] (material extraneous to below comments was deleted)

> To observe the current activity, it's probably a good idea to punch it =
down=20
> in regular intervals ...

I never heard about punching down a starter. Assuming that it is made =
to
the consistency of being just barely stirable with a chopstick, it will =
rise to=20
a level where it will stay for a good while, notwithstanding that the =
optimum
time to feed it or use it for inoculation is slightly before its height =
stabilizes.

> ... how would one know if it still huffs or if it stopped?

Why should one care? If it is up and not moving, one could assume
that it is close enough to stationary phase, as in
http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#SEC9

> Solution: punchdown.=20

Mike Avery was/is? big on punchdowns. Maybe the condition is
contagious? Punching down dough two or three times, now=20
punching down starters.

> to get an idea about (whether?) activity is regained.

Does it matter? For a stored starter, activity will continue slowly
for a while as the peak height is approached, no doubt in part slowed
by nutrient diffusion as well as nutrient depletion.

> Organisms benefit from oxygen.=20

Not always. Our sourdough organisms are anaerobes for practical
purposes, though yeasts may be facilitative aerobes. In fact, in dough
and in stout starters (and unstirred batters) insignificant oxygen is =
available.

> Stirring at regular intervals moves nutritions around and promotes=20
> growth of desired organisms.

Also ploughs under the undesirable aerobes, like molds, which grow
at the surface where oxygen is available.

> When making final dough, punchdown also can improve the=20
> dough structure besides shuffling the nutrients around.

You, of all people, should understand the difference between
punching and massaging. Take stretching and folding, for instance --
does that seem like punching?

Can we not say punchdown, but rather concentrate on the=20
manipulations which structure and tension dough for good rising
and desired crumb texture?

> That does not mean it won't work without stirring.

By me, if you make your starter right, to the point where it is=20
becoming difficult to stir it with a chopstick, it is difficult to stir,
and just as well left alone.

For the newcomer:
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/starter.html
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howshoul...tarterfor.html

--=20
Dick Adams
(Sourdough minimalist)
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

"Samartha" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.1098245469.14661.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.c=
om...

> [ ... ] (material extraneous to below comments was deleted)

> To observe the current activity, it's probably a good idea to punch it =
down=20
> in regular intervals ...

I never heard about punching down a starter. Assuming that it is made =
to
the consistency of being just barely stirable with a chopstick, it will =
rise to=20
a level where it will stay for a good while, notwithstanding that the =
optimum
time to feed it or use it for inoculation is slightly before its height =
stabilizes.

> ... how would one know if it still huffs or if it stopped?

Why should one care? If it is up and not moving, one could assume
that it is close enough to stationary phase, as in
http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#SEC9

> Solution: punchdown.=20

Mike Avery was/is? big on punchdowns. Maybe the condition is
contagious? Punching down dough two or three times, now=20
punching down starters.

> to get an idea about (whether?) activity is regained.

Does it matter? For a stored starter, activity will continue slowly
for a while as the peak height is approached, no doubt in part slowed
by nutrient diffusion as well as nutrient depletion.

> Organisms benefit from oxygen.=20

Not always. Our sourdough organisms are anaerobes for practical
purposes, though yeasts may be facilitative aerobes. In fact, in dough
and in stout starters (and unstirred batters) insignificant oxygen is =
available.

> Stirring at regular intervals moves nutritions around and promotes=20
> growth of desired organisms.

Also ploughs under the undesirable aerobes, like molds, which grow
at the surface where oxygen is available.

> When making final dough, punchdown also can improve the=20
> dough structure besides shuffling the nutrients around.

You, of all people, should understand the difference between
punching and massaging. Take stretching and folding, for instance --
does that seem like punching?

Can we not say punchdown, but rather concentrate on the=20
manipulations which structure and tension dough for good rising
and desired crumb texture?

> That does not mean it won't work without stirring.

By me, if you make your starter right, to the point where it is=20
becoming difficult to stir it with a chopstick, it is difficult to stir,
and just as well left alone.

For the newcomer:
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/starter.html
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howshoul...tarterfor.html

--=20
Dick Adams
(Sourdough minimalist)
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

"Dave Bell" > wrote in message =
news
> Kenneth wrote:
> > ... Please don't top-post...=20

> Or, *always* top-post.=20
> ... it makes sense to read the latest at the top, without having to =
scroll.=20
> Standard is bottom though, I agree.

Or maybe we can have a long, deadly polemic on top-loading vs.=20
bottom-loading?

Or you learn to use your editor to focus your comments as suggested
in item #4 at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/newcomertips.html

If you take a look at the threads in the Google Archives, you may
gain an appreciation for what a big mess indiscriminant requoting=20
(whether top- or bottom loaded) makes.

---
DickA

"Dave Bell" > wrote in message =
news
> Kenneth wrote:
> > ... Please don't top-post...=20

> Or, *always* top-post.=20
> ... it makes sense to read the latest at the top, without having to =
scroll.=20
> Standard is bottom though, I agree.

Or maybe we can have a long, deadly polemic on top-loading vs.=20
bottom-loading?

Or you learn to use your editor to focus your comments as suggested
in item #4 at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/newcomertips.html

If you take a look at the threads in the Google Archives, you may
gain an appreciation for what a big mess indiscriminant requoting=20
(whether top- or bottom loaded) makes.

---
DickA

"Dave Bell" > wrote in message =
news
> Kenneth wrote:
> > ... Please don't top-post...=20

> Or, *always* top-post.=20
> ... it makes sense to read the latest at the top, without having to =
scroll.=20
> Standard is bottom though, I agree.

Or maybe we can have a long, deadly polemic on top-loading vs.=20
bottom-loading?

Or you learn to use your editor to focus your comments as suggested
in item #4 at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/newcomertips.html

If you take a look at the threads in the Google Archives, you may
gain an appreciation for what a big mess indiscriminant requoting=20
(whether top- or bottom loaded) makes.

---
DickA

"Dave Bell" > wrote in message =
news
> Kenneth wrote:
> > ... Please don't top-post...=20

> Or, *always* top-post.=20
> ... it makes sense to read the latest at the top, without having to =
scroll.=20
> Standard is bottom though, I agree.

Or maybe we can have a long, deadly polemic on top-loading vs.=20
bottom-loading?

Or you learn to use your editor to focus your comments as suggested
in item #4 at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/newcomertips.html

If you take a look at the threads in the Google Archives, you may
gain an appreciation for what a big mess indiscriminant requoting=20
(whether top- or bottom loaded) makes.

---
DickA

"Dave Bell" > wrote in message =
news
> Kenneth wrote:
> > ... Please don't top-post...=20

> Or, *always* top-post.=20
> ... it makes sense to read the latest at the top, without having to =
scroll.=20
> Standard is bottom though, I agree.

Or maybe we can have a long, deadly polemic on top-loading vs.=20
bottom-loading?

Or you learn to use your editor to focus your comments as suggested
in item #4 at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/newcomertips.html

If you take a look at the threads in the Google Archives, you may
gain an appreciation for what a big mess indiscriminant requoting=20
(whether top- or bottom loaded) makes.

---
DickA

I am not sure if we are entering the alkaline starter realm again. I'll try
anyway...

At 08:49 AM 10/20/2004, "Dick Adams" wrote:

>"Samartha" > wrote in message
>news:mailman.1098245469.14661.rec.food.sourdough@ www.mountainbitwarrior.com...
>
>
> > To observe the current activity, it's probably a good idea to punch it
> down
> > in regular intervals ...
>
>I never heard about punching down a starter.

Hey - you are cracking me up :-) - that's almost like Roy Basan's statement
a while ago about watching German bakery sales beauties:

"I have been there and have notseen
or heard a costumer who will ask to the bakery salespeople if he/or
she is buying natural sourdough?"

If you have not "heard" it, maybe because this is a text based forum and my
web site is not yet acoustically equipped.

I do it all the time (deflating) when possible for the reasons given in my
first post in this thread and it's also shown on my growing a starter from
scratch web pages. Without deflating, it just would not work.

>Assuming that it is made to
>the consistency of being just barely stirable with a chopstick,

Incorrect IME - barely stirrable with a chopstick would be a hydration of
50-ish (at that density, a chopstick can be used by grabbing it two inches
above the lower end and using the lower inch for diving it into the dough
mass and stirring) and you won't see much rise at all with this density. I
have broken chopsticks preventing any further stirring at 100 % hydrations.
Using chopsticks for any argument of comparison is totally futile because
they can break easily.

>it will rise to
>a level where it will stay for a good while, notwithstanding that the optimum
>time to feed it or use it for inoculation is slightly before its height
>stabilizes.

If you only use rising height without punchdown (deflating) for determining
maturity, you are fooling yourself quite a tad more than usual. This
specifically won't work. You may reach maximum height and even partial
collapse way before maturity if you don't punch down and observe new gas
development. I find that without measuring pH, the only way to get a handle
on the maturity state is observation of gas development after punchdown.

> > Organisms benefit from oxygen.
>
>Not always. Our sourdough organisms are anaerobes for practical
>purposes, though yeasts may be facilitative aerobes. In fact, in dough
>and in stout starters (and unstirred batters) insignificant oxygen is
>available.

Incorrect, with established sourdoughs - always!

You may not be informed (->have heard) about foam sourdough procedures,
where in the initial (starter) growing stages, the starter is aerated by
stirring to obtain a foamy mixture. With this process, the obtained germ
counts are double of what normally occurs. To make a foamy mixture with
almost all the water of the dough and all the rye going in as a first
mixing step for the final dough appears to help and produces excellent
taste and structure in mixed rye/white breads IME.

Ds,styhs

(I know, I am off - but who ain't?)


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

"Samartha" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.1098587950.25007.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.c=
om...

> I am not sure if we are entering the alkaline starter realm again. =
I'll try=20
> anyway ...

Seems you may have learned the art of debate from the presidential
candidates.

> Hey - you are cracking me up :-) - that's almost like Roy Basan's =
statement ...

Argumentum ad hominum -- a powerful tool of deceit!=20

> If you have not "heard" it, maybe because this is a text based forum =
and my=20
> web site is not yet acoustically equipped.

Easy to do with sound files and simple HTML commands. =20

> I do it all the time (deflating) when possible for the reasons given =
in my=20
> first post in this thread and it's also shown on my growing a starter =
from=20
> scratch web pages. Without deflating, it just would not work.

Perhaps your experience is deviant. Anyway, I have never heard of=20
growing a starter from scratch web pages.

> Using chopsticks for any argument of comparison is totally futile =
because=20
> they can break easily.

You must have some pretty cheap chopsticks. Mine I'd need both hands
to break. But, of course, my fingers are not energized by rolfing =
muscles.

> If you only use rising height without punchdown (deflating) for =
determining=20
> maturity, you are fooling yourself quite a tad more than usual.

Self deception is a comfort at my age and in these times. For instance, =

I deceive myself that the bread I make is OK, sometimes even quite good.
I put my faith in the President knowing that he will keep me safe.
I take my prescribed medications and believe I am benefited by them.
Etc.

> This specifically won't work. You may reach maximum height and=20
> even partial collapse way before maturity if you don't punch down=20
> and observe new gas development.

If the batter/sponge is taken at a time beyond max. height, there is
a high risk of gluten degeneration. That is probably the most important
discovery I have made.=20

> I find that without measuring pH, the only way to get a handle=20
> on the maturity state is observation of gas development after=20
> punchdown.

I would like to have better tests. Sometimes I think about adding
an indicator dye to the mix or collecting the emitted gas in a balloon
or cylinder over water. But until then, or until putting a pH meter =
into
operation, the height test serves pretty well. Please consider my
innate frugality and essential minimalism.

> > > Organisms benefit from oxygen.
> > Not always.
> Incorrect, with established sourdoughs - always!
> You may not be informed (->have heard) about foam sourdough=20
> procedures, where in the initial (starter) growing stages, the =
starter=20
> is aerated by stirring to obtain a foamy mixture.

Once the starter is incorporated into dough or batter, movement of=20
gases and nutrients is diffusion limited. That situation may be =
ameliorated=20
by stirring or by agitation. Stirring is probably most important for =
the
purpose of bringing nutrients closer.

> To make a foamy mixture with almost all the water of the dough=20
> and all the rye going in as a first mixing step for the final dough =
appears=20
> to help and produces excellent taste and structure in mixed rye/white=20
> breads IME.

I believe that your traditional rye-wheat breads are traditionally =
denser=20
than the cotton-candy textures I am seeking to achieve in my all-white
sourdough breads. There is no doubt that you are succeeding quite well.

My experience continues to suggest that manipulations of the preferments
done in the interest of flavoring the finished bread are futile, =
notwithstanding
the high fermentational activity is very important at all prebake =
stages.

---
DickA