Hi there

Probably a dumb question, but I've spent ages googling and reading
this group and can't find an answer anywhere.

I'm trying to grow a starter using the following method -
1. Start with 50g flour and 50g water
2. After 24 hours add another 50g each of flour and water
3. After 24 hours throw half away and add another 50g each of flour
and water
4. Repeat 3 until the starter is ready

I'm growing it in a cylindrical glass measuring jug. After 3-4 days I
have a layer of pale brown liquid which has formed in the middle of
the starter. There is evidence that it's bubbled up and it otherwise
appears healthy (no pinkish liquids, no mould) but I'm worried about
the liquid forming in the middle. Is this a problem? Is it because
I'm not feeding it often enough?

Thanks

Simon

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:05:58 -0800 (PST), Simon
> wrote:

>Hi there
>
>Probably a dumb question, but I've spent ages googling and reading
>this group and can't find an answer anywhere.
>
>I'm trying to grow a starter using the following method -
>1. Start with 50g flour and 50g water
>2. After 24 hours add another 50g each of flour and water
>3. After 24 hours throw half away and add another 50g each of flour
>and water
>4. Repeat 3 until the starter is ready
>
>I'm growing it in a cylindrical glass measuring jug. After 3-4 days I
>have a layer of pale brown liquid which has formed in the middle of
>the starter. There is evidence that it's bubbled up and it otherwise
>appears healthy (no pinkish liquids, no mould) but I'm worried about
>the liquid forming in the middle. Is this a problem? Is it because
>I'm not feeding it often enough?
>
>Thanks
>
>Simon

Mix up the starter, then throw out all but a spoonful of what's in the
container each time you feed it. Lather rinse repeat.

Only increase your amount of starter when it is stable (active and
consistent in performance after 10-14 days or so) and you need more
for a recipe.

The liquid is often called "hooch" - the alcohol byproduct of your
yeasties.

Welcome to the nuthouse.

Boron

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:05:58 -0800 (PST), Simon
> wrote:

>Hi there
>
>Probably a dumb question, but I've spent ages googling and reading
>this group and can't find an answer anywhere.
>
>I'm trying to grow a starter using the following method -
>1. Start with 50g flour and 50g water
>2. After 24 hours add another 50g each of flour and water
>3. After 24 hours throw half away and add another 50g each of flour
>and water
>4. Repeat 3 until the starter is ready
>
>I'm growing it in a cylindrical glass measuring jug. After 3-4 days I
>have a layer of pale brown liquid which has formed in the middle of
>the starter. There is evidence that it's bubbled up and it otherwise
>appears healthy (no pinkish liquids, no mould) but I'm worried about
>the liquid forming in the middle. Is this a problem? Is it because
>I'm not feeding it often enough?
I tend to use equal volumes, not equal weights, anyway, make
it very thick. If it's already bubbling, feed it as soon as it starts
"falling back" on itself, a sure sign the gluten has been eaten up,
and your lactobacilli is at max lvl.
.And wait at least 7-10 days before expecting results.
>Thanks
>
>Simon

On Feb 25, 2:05*pm, Simon > wrote:
> Hi there
>
> Probably a dumb question, but I've spent ages googling and reading
> this group and can't find an answer anywhere.
>
> I'm trying to grow a starter using the following method -
> 1. Start with 50g flour and 50g water
> 2. After 24 hours add another 50g each of flour and water
> 3. After 24 hours throw half away and add another 50g each of flour
> and water
> 4. Repeat 3 until the starter is ready
>
> I'm growing it in a cylindrical glass measuring jug. *After 3-4 days I
> have a layer of pale brown liquid which has formed in the middle of
> the starter. *There is evidence that it's bubbled up and it otherwise
> appears healthy (no pinkish liquids, no mould) but I'm worried about
> the liquid forming in the middle. *Is this a problem? *Is it because
> I'm not feeding it often enough?
>
> Thanks
>
> Simon

You're doing fine, I think. I started mine with a similar method,
increasing the amount of flour and water until the 4th day or so, when
I baked with it. I don't think you have to wait 2 weeks before you
use it, adding a lot and throwing a lot away - that's a lot of wasted
flour. The idea with throwing half away is to increase flour to
starter ratio to decrease the acidity of the environment for the
yeast. I did so by adding more flour, you're doing so by throwing
half away. Try adding more flour so you have enough to use, and if it
bubbles up, use it! (If the liquid appears, stir it in -- it's hooch
and it's a good sign). As long as there's no off colors, smells, or
furs, you're probably fine. It should smell beer-y and sour.

Enjoy!
Bill

Bill G wrote:
> On Feb 25, 2:05 pm, Simon > wrote:
>
> ...
> As long as there's no off colors, smells, or
> furs, you're probably fine. It should smell beer-y and sour.
>
> Enjoy!
> Bill
>

Introducing senses - smells and colours to stater birthing is definitely
progress!

How about taste - sour or not sour would be the question.

S.

> _______________________________________________
> Rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough
>
>

On Feb 27, 10:12*am, Bill G > wrote:
> use it, adding a lot and throwing a lot away - that's a lot of wasted
> flour. *
> ...
> Enjoy!
> Bill

I use my left overs for pancakes. Depending on how much starter is
available I may not even add extra flour.
Matt

On 2/27/2010 1:46 PM, Matt Fitz wrote:
> On Feb 27, 10:12 am, Bill > wrote:
>> use it, adding a lot and throwing a lot away - that's a lot of wasted
>> flour.
>> ...
>> Enjoy!
>> Bill
>
> I use my left overs for pancakes. Depending on how much starter is
> available I may not even add extra flour.
> Matt

What is your recipe? Do you use baking soda?

Harvey

On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 16:17:59 -0500, eclipsme >
wrote:

>On 2/27/2010 1:46 PM, Matt Fitz wrote:
>> On Feb 27, 10:12 am, Bill > wrote:
>> I use my left overs for pancakes. Depending on how much starter is
>> available I may not even add extra flour.
>> Matt
>
>What is your recipe? Do you use baking soda?
>
>Harvey

If I may be permitted to butt in; here's what I use. My wife, who
doesn't normally like pancakes, does like these.

Summarized from:
http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...s/pancakes.htm

Ingredient 1 person 2 People 4 People
Starter 1 Cup 2 Cups 4 Cups

Sugar 1 Tbsp. 2 Tbsp. 4 Tbsp.
Light Oil 2 Tbsp. 4 Tbsp. 7 Tbsp.
Egg 1 2 4
Salt ¼ tsp. ½ tsp. ¾ tsp.

Baking Soda ½ tsp. 1 tsp. 2 tsp.
Hot Water ½ Tbsp. 1 Tbsp. 2 Tbsp.
Note: Use double acting baking soda, which gives a second rise from
the heat when cooked.

This was cut from a Word document with a nicely displayed table for
one, two, and four people. I doesn't render well here - sorry.

Start with leftover/sourdough starter after refreshing the 'fridge
starter; allow about a cup of starter per person.

Start heating the oiled griddle(s) to medium high.

Put starter in one bowl that has room for growth, because the volume
will increase when the baking soda is added.

In a separate container, add the next 4 ingredients (sugar, egg, oil,
salt) and beat thoroughly (use a high-temp oil like sesame,
grape-seed, peanut, walnut, etc.) Whip it aggressively to develop
lots of small bubbles. Fold this gently into the starter trying not
to loose many of the bubbles.

WHEN READY TO COOK - AND NOT BEFORE, dissolve the soda in the hot
water, then quickly but gently fold it into the starter. The volume
should start increasing right away as the soda reacts with the lactic
acid in the starter in a gentle foaming action. After foaming for
about 30 seconds to a minute, start cooking. Pour into six to eight
inch rounds on the griddle. When the bubbles on top start to burst
and stay open, flip over just long enough to brown the bottoms (about
3 to 4 minutes total depending on the griddle heat.

Alternative Ideas:
(1) Combine 1 cup blueberries dusted with 2 tablespoons sugar; let
stand a few minutes. Gently fold blueberries into the batter just
before adding the baking soda mixture.
(2) Grate some tart apples into the batter before adding the baking
soda mixture.
(3) Thinly slice or mash banana into the batter before adding baking
soda mixture.

Yum, yum! ;-)

On 2/27/2010 4:41 PM, Mike Brown wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 16:17:59 -0500, >
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/27/2010 1:46 PM, Matt Fitz wrote:
>>> On Feb 27, 10:12 am, Bill > wrote:
>>> I use my left overs for pancakes. Depending on how much starter is
>>> available I may not even add extra flour.
>>> Matt
>>
>> What is your recipe? Do you use baking soda?
>>
>> Harvey
>
> If I may be permitted to butt in; here's what I use. My wife, who
> doesn't normally like pancakes, does like these.

Why sure, go on ahead!
>
> Summarized from:
> http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...s/pancakes.htm
>
> Ingredient 1 person 2 People 4 People
> Starter 1 Cup 2 Cups 4 Cups
>
> Sugar 1 Tbsp. 2 Tbsp. 4 Tbsp.
> Light Oil 2 Tbsp. 4 Tbsp. 7 Tbsp.
> Egg 1 2 4
> Salt ¼ tsp. ½ tsp. ¾ tsp.
>
> Baking Soda ½ tsp. 1 tsp. 2 tsp.
> Hot Water ½ Tbsp. 1 Tbsp. 2 Tbsp.

I have seen a similar recipe - pretty basic pancake batter after all,
yes? - but with matching flour, ie 1 cup starter and 1 cup flour and 1
cup water, or similar. Then let it stand overnight. Actually, this is
really just feeding the starter and doubling its volume, isn't it, thus
ending up in much the same place as your recipe.

Silly me. I just renewed my starter (once a week when not baking) and
through away the bulk. I could have fed it and had pancakes tomorrow
along with the bagels I am making. Then again, that just sounds like too
much food! I could, however, saved it for Monday... Oh well... There is
always next week!

Harvey

On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:27:58 -0500, eclipsme >
wrote:

>On 2/27/2010 4:41 PM, Mike Brown wrote:
>> If I may be permitted to butt in; here's what I use. My wife, who
>> doesn't normally like pancakes, does like these.
>
>Why sure, go on ahead!

Why, thank you.

>> Summarized from:
>> http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...s/pancakes.htm
>>
>> Ingredient 1 person 2 People 4 People
>> Starter 1 Cup 2 Cups 4 Cups
>>
>> Sugar 1 Tbsp. 2 Tbsp. 4 Tbsp.
>> Light Oil 2 Tbsp. 4 Tbsp. 7 Tbsp.
>> Egg 1 2 4
>> Salt ¼ tsp. ½ tsp. ¾ tsp.
>>
>> Baking Soda ½ tsp. 1 tsp. 2 tsp.
>> Hot Water ½ Tbsp. 1 Tbsp. 2 Tbsp.
>
>I have seen a similar recipe - pretty basic pancake batter after all,
>yes? - but with matching flour, ie 1 cup starter and 1 cup flour and 1
>cup water, or similar. Then let it stand overnight. Actually, this is
>really just feeding the starter and doubling its volume, isn't it, thus
>ending up in much the same place as your recipe.

"Actually, this is really just feeding the starter and doubling its
volume, isn't it?" Well, yes and no. When it's time to refresh the
starter that I keep in the fridge, I do it slowly over several days.
By that, I mean I don't just dump in the same amount of flour and
water as there is starter, but only small amounts (equal by weight) to
allow it to grow bit-by-bit. 300 grams of starter plus 25g each
flour and water on day 1, add 50g each on day two, add 70 or 80g each
day 3, add 120g each on day 4. Let it bubble up then settle down. On
day 5, put the revived 300 g back in the fridge and add 50 or 100g
each to what's left and let it foam up again overnight and make
pancakes the next day.

Why? I've found that the fridge starter, when first fed during a
refresh isn't as sour or "active" as I'd like. The slow feeding over
a few days allows it to totally wake up all the little beasties and
bring out the sour again. This "sour" is partly lactic acid, which
reacts with the baking soda to make the bubbles in the pancakes; the
more lactic acid, the more bubbles, and the lighter the pancakes.

>Silly me. I just renewed my starter (once a week when not baking) and
>through away the bulk. I could have fed it and had pancakes tomorrow
>along with the bagels I am making. Then again, that just sounds like too
>much food! I could, however, saved it for Monday... Oh well... There is
>always next week!

Using my approach or yours -- either will work. Bon Appetit!

On 2/28/2010 3:38 PM, OSIRIS wrote:
> On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 19:27:58 -0500, >
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/27/2010 4:41 PM, Mike Brown wrote:
>>> If I may be permitted to butt in; here's what I use. My wife, who
>>> doesn't normally like pancakes, does like these.
>>
>> Why sure, go on ahead!
>
> Why, thank you.

You're perfectly welcome!
>
>>> Summarized from:
>>> http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...s/pancakes.htm
>>>
>>> Ingredient 1 person 2 People 4 People
>>> Starter 1 Cup 2 Cups 4 Cups
>>>
>>> Sugar 1 Tbsp. 2 Tbsp. 4 Tbsp.
>>> Light Oil 2 Tbsp. 4 Tbsp. 7 Tbsp.
>>> Egg 1 2 4
>>> Salt ¼ tsp. ½ tsp. ¾ tsp.
>>>
>>> Baking Soda ½ tsp. 1 tsp. 2 tsp.
>>> Hot Water ½ Tbsp. 1 Tbsp. 2 Tbsp.
>>
>> I have seen a similar recipe - pretty basic pancake batter after all,
>> yes? - but with matching flour, ie 1 cup starter and 1 cup flour and 1
>> cup water, or similar. Then let it stand overnight. Actually, this is
>> really just feeding the starter and doubling its volume, isn't it, thus
>> ending up in much the same place as your recipe.
>
> "Actually, this is really just feeding the starter and doubling its
> volume, isn't it?" Well, yes and no. When it's time to refresh the
> starter that I keep in the fridge, I do it slowly over several days.
> By that, I mean I don't just dump in the same amount of flour and
> water as there is starter, but only small amounts (equal by weight) to
> allow it to grow bit-by-bit. 300 grams of starter plus 25g each
> flour and water on day 1, add 50g each on day two, add 70 or 80g each
> day 3, add 120g each on day 4. Let it bubble up then settle down. On
> day 5, put the revived 300 g back in the fridge and add 50 or 100g
> each to what's left and let it foam up again overnight and make
> pancakes the next day.
>
> Why? I've found that the fridge starter, when first fed during a
> refresh isn't as sour or "active" as I'd like. The slow feeding over
> a few days allows it to totally wake up all the little beasties and
> bring out the sour again. This "sour" is partly lactic acid, which
> reacts with the baking soda to make the bubbles in the pancakes; the
> more lactic acid, the more bubbles, and the lighter the pancakes.

Lately I have been maintaining the starter at 100% hydration, 50 grams
each. If I were to want to make bread this Saturday and if I needed say
200 grams of starter, I would remove probably the starter on Thursday,
double it, then double it again on Friday and use it on Saturday.

Or, If I was thinking clearly enough (happens sometimes) I might take it
out Wed, toss most of it and bring it back to 100 grams +-, then
continue as above Thurs and Fri and use it Sat.

I don't have enough experience to say if the extra day of feeding makes
a difference ot not. I do find that doubling everyday does not seem to
be a problem. Are you saying that you find the starter to be more active
and thus raises faster per unit than otherwise?

I may have to pay more attention to this.
>
>> Silly me. I just renewed my starter (once a week when not baking) and
>> through away the bulk. I could have fed it and had pancakes tomorrow
>> along with the bagels I am making. Then again, that just sounds like too
>> much food! I could, however, saved it for Monday... Oh well... There is
>> always next week!
>
> Using my approach or yours -- either will work. Bon Appetit!

I have certainly been enjoying the sourdough that my starter has been
yielding! Bon Appetit to you as well! (that makes want to go and find
the butter for some reason ;-o )

Harvey

OSIRIS wrote:
> "Actually, this is really just feeding the starter and doubling its
> volume, isn't it?" Well, yes and no. When it's time to refresh the
> starter that I keep in the fridge, I do it slowly over several days.
> By that, I mean I don't just dump in the same amount of flour and
> water as there is starter, but only small amounts (equal by weight) to
> allow it to grow bit-by-bit. 300 grams of starter plus 25g each
> flour and water on day 1, add 50g each on day two, add 70 or 80g each
> day 3, add 120g each on day 4. Let it bubble up then settle down. On
> day 5, put the revived 300 g back in the fridge and add 50 or 100g
> each to what's left and let it foam up again overnight and make
> pancakes the next day.
>
>
Please note that this procedure has nothing to with creating a viable
starter for rising bread since
the flour multiplication factor (starter flour / flour addition) is
negative across all stages.

Sam

On 2/28/2010 8:12 PM, Sam wrote:
> OSIRIS wrote:
>> "Actually, this is really just feeding the starter and doubling its
>> volume, isn't it?" Well, yes and no. When it's time to refresh the
>> starter that I keep in the fridge, I do it slowly over several days.
>> By that, I mean I don't just dump in the same amount of flour and
>> water as there is starter, but only small amounts (equal by weight) to
>> allow it to grow bit-by-bit. 300 grams of starter plus 25g each
>> flour and water on day 1, add 50g each on day two, add 70 or 80g each
>> day 3, add 120g each on day 4. Let it bubble up then settle down. On
>> day 5, put the revived 300 g back in the fridge and add 50 or 100g
>> each to what's left and let it foam up again overnight and make
>> pancakes the next day.
> Please note that this procedure has nothing to with creating a viable
> starter for rising bread since
> the flour multiplication factor (starter flour / flour addition) is
> negative across all stages.
>
> Sam
>
Hi Sam. Do you mean creating a starter from scratch? No, of course it
doesn't. As stated we are discussing the feeding and building up of an
existing starter towards the aim of making sourdough pancakes.

Or are you referring to the less than doubling at each feeding? I am
confused by your use of the term negative multiplication factor. Are you
saying that this would not result in a viable starter? Why not?

Thanks for clarifying.
Harvey

eclipsme wrote:
> On 2/28/2010 8:12 PM, Sam wrote:
>
>> OSIRIS wrote:
>>
>>> "Actually, this is really just feeding the starter and doubling its
>>> volume, isn't it?" Well, yes and no. When it's time to refresh the
>>> starter that I keep in the fridge, I do it slowly over several days.
>>> By that, I mean I don't just dump in the same amount of flour and
>>> water as there is starter, but only small amounts (equal by weight) to
>>> allow it to grow bit-by-bit. 300 grams of starter plus 25g each
>>> flour and water on day 1, add 50g each on day two, add 70 or 80g each
>>> day 3, add 120g each on day 4. Let it bubble up then settle down. On
>>> day 5, put the revived 300 g back in the fridge and add 50 or 100g
>>> each to what's left and let it foam up again overnight and make
>>> pancakes the next day.
>>>
>> Please note that this procedure has nothing to with creating a viable
>> starter for rising bread since
>> the flour multiplication factor (starter flour / flour addition) is
>> negative across all stages.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>>
> Hi Sam. Do you mean creating a starter from scratch?
That was not described and I mentioned "for rising bread".
> No, of course it
> doesn't. As stated we are discussing the feeding and building up of an
> existing starter towards the aim of making sourdough pancakes.
>
> Or are you referring to the less than doubling at each feeding? I am
> confused by your use of the term negative multiplication factor. Are you
> saying that this would not result in a viable starter? Why not?
>
> Thanks for clarifying.
>

So - as I said - unfit for rising bread so someone may not get attracted
to the gentle 5 day awakening of a starter put to sleep in the fridge.
You can play with your starters as you like but what one is trying to
get and actually doing to get there in 5 days - hrm...

What is one trying to achieve?

Sourness and some taste factors. This are fermentation products and are
created by fermentation and not by preventing it.

How do you get critters to produce their output? By feeding them.

What is happening in this gentle 5-day awakening? Let's have a look:

Assuming starter in fridge is reasonably old <= 1 month and was
reasonably active.

300 g, assumed 100 % hydration with 150 g flour.
adding 25 g flour for the next 24 hours...
Critters will get going as soon as they get warmer and the 25 g are
gobbled up in...
assume starter is damaged by 50 %, so 75 g flour alive, doubling every
three hours or so.

There is nothing left for the critters to feed on and they will succumb
to oversouring retardation for the rest till the next feeding.
This goes on for the next 4 days. The critter growth is exponential and
the feeding is less than doubling every time.

Adequate would maybe a 10 x flour multiplication in a 24 hour period.
Then you may get some fermentation product going.
But with pancakes, it won't matter. Main thing one gets it sour, even
more so when they are under-fed, no matter how long it takes.

Makes sense now?

Sam

On 3/1/2010 12:25 AM, Sam wrote:
> eclipsme wrote:
>> On 2/28/2010 8:12 PM, Sam wrote:
>>> OSIRIS wrote:
>>>> "Actually, this is really just feeding the starter and doubling its
>>>> volume, isn't it?" Well, yes and no. When it's time to refresh the
>>>> starter that I keep in the fridge, I do it slowly over several days.
>>>> By that, I mean I don't just dump in the same amount of flour and
>>>> water as there is starter, but only small amounts (equal by weight) to
>>>> allow it to grow bit-by-bit. 300 grams of starter plus 25g each
>>>> flour and water on day 1, add 50g each on day two, add 70 or 80g each
>>>> day 3, add 120g each on day 4. Let it bubble up then settle down. On
>>>> day 5, put the revived 300 g back in the fridge and add 50 or 100g
>>>> each to what's left and let it foam up again overnight and make
>>>> pancakes the next day.
>>> Please note that this procedure has nothing to with creating a viable
>>> starter for rising bread since
>>> the flour multiplication factor (starter flour / flour addition) is
>>> negative across all stages.
>>>
>>> Sam
>>>
>> Hi Sam. Do you mean creating a starter from scratch?
> That was not described and I mentioned "for rising bread".
>> No, of course it doesn't. As stated we are discussing the feeding and
>> building up of an existing starter towards the aim of making sourdough
>> pancakes.
>>
>> Or are you referring to the less than doubling at each feeding? I am
>> confused by your use of the term negative multiplication factor. Are
>> you saying that this would not result in a viable starter? Why not?
>>
>> Thanks for clarifying.
>
> So - as I said - unfit for rising bread so someone may not get attracted
> to the gentle 5 day awakening of a starter put to sleep in the fridge.
> You can play with your starters as you like but what one is trying to
> get and actually doing to get there in 5 days - hrm...
>
> What is one trying to achieve?
>
> Sourness and some taste factors. This are fermentation products and are
> created by fermentation and not by preventing it.
>
> How do you get critters to produce their output? By feeding them.
>
> What is happening in this gentle 5-day awakening? Let's have a look:
>
> Assuming starter in fridge is reasonably old <= 1 month and was
> reasonably active.
>
> 300 g, assumed 100 % hydration with 150 g flour.
> adding 25 g flour for the next 24 hours...
> Critters will get going as soon as they get warmer and the 25 g are
> gobbled up in...
> assume starter is damaged by 50 %, so 75 g flour alive, doubling every
> three hours or so.
>
> There is nothing left for the critters to feed on and they will succumb
> to oversouring retardation for the rest till the next feeding.
> This goes on for the next 4 days. The critter growth is exponential and
> the feeding is less than doubling every time.
>
> Adequate would maybe a 10 x flour multiplication in a 24 hour period.
> Then you may get some fermentation product going.
> But with pancakes, it won't matter. Main thing one gets it sour, even
> more so when they are under-fed, no matter how long it takes.
>
> Makes sense now?
>
> Sam
>
Yes, Sam. Thanks for the clarification. Harvey