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Kneading, hydration, gluten content, and holes (coarsely-textured crumb)
See also the thread named: Will - Hydration alone producing=20
gluten structure. Which is the best way to obtained coarsely-texture bread (big holes)? Well, here again I make one more small effort to continue my search. In this case: intense kneading, 75% hydration, bread flour (~14% = protein), two rises proceeded by stretching and folding. This is straight dough, not sourdough. The proposition is that stretching and folding later on in the rise may coalesce some bubbles, for a more open eventual texture. Please see results at: http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ad2/index.html This may be compared with a previous experiment at: http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ead/index.html That involved only one stretch and fold cycle. Some people are telling that the way to get the big holes is to mix only, not knead, and let the mixed dough sit in the fridge for a long time so it will have a chance to knead itself. It would be very helpful to me if those people would show their photographs since, at the rate I am going, I may not have time to try everything myself. I think some are recommending low-gluten flour. Yes, it is not sourdough. But sourdough makes the experiments longer and more critical. I would like to make loaves like Iggy's Francense (which is sourdough) but do not feel I am getting even close. Please use the following link to see what I mean: http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/iggys.htm So help me if you can. Well, probably I am beyond help -- I am crazily obsessed with these big elusive holes. Well, my wife and family just loves my regular bread so maybe I should stick to that. --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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>See also the thread named: Will - Hydration alone producing=20 >gluten structure. > >Which is the best way to obtained coarsely-texture bread (big holes)? >Well, here again I make one more small effort to continue my search. > >In this case: intense kneading, 75% hydration, bread flour (~14% = >protein), >two rises proceeded by stretching and folding. This is straight dough, >not sourdough. > >The proposition is that stretching and folding later on in the rise may >coalesce some bubbles, for a more open eventual texture. > >Please see results at: >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ad2/index.html > >This may be compared with a previous experiment at: >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ead/index.html >That involved only one stretch and fold cycle. > >Some people are telling that the way to get the big holes is to >mix only, not knead, and let the mixed dough sit in the fridge for >a long time so it will have a chance to knead itself. It would be >very helpful to me if those people would show their photographs >since, at the rate I am going, I may not have time to try everything >myself. I think some are recommending low-gluten flour. > >Yes, it is not sourdough. But sourdough makes the experiments >longer and more critical. I would like to make loaves like Iggy's >Francense (which is sourdough) but do not feel I am getting even >close. Please use the following link to see what I mean: >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/iggys.htm > >So help me if you can. Well, probably I am beyond help -- I am >crazily obsessed with these big elusive holes. Well, my wife and >family just loves my regular bread so maybe I should stick to that. > >--=20 >Dick Adams ><firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com >___________________ >Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 >http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html > > > > > > > Dick, I'll answer more fully this evening (GMT) but here are 2 pix that may be of interest, the first is straight yeast, the second the same bread but from sourdough. I think I may have posted the second previously, if so, my apologies. http://www.zippyimages.com/files/109452/DSC00023.jpg http://www.zippyimages.com/files/109454/DSC00077.jpg I do have more difficulty making large holed bread from sourdough, but one thing to say immediately is that I use at least 80% hydration and 4-6 stretch and fold cycles, depending on how the dough reacts. The bread in both pictures was made at 110% hydration. I think, next time I will cut back to 105% on the SD version to compensate for the extra dough relaxation that SD seems to exhhibit. And, yes, once the "Big Hole Bug" strikes, rationality goes walkabout and "Size is everything"<g>. John |
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>See also the thread named: Will - Hydration alone producing=20 >gluten structure. > >Which is the best way to obtained coarsely-texture bread (big holes)? >Well, here again I make one more small effort to continue my search. > >In this case: intense kneading, 75% hydration, bread flour (~14% = >protein), >two rises proceeded by stretching and folding. This is straight dough, >not sourdough. > >The proposition is that stretching and folding later on in the rise may >coalesce some bubbles, for a more open eventual texture. > >Please see results at: >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ad2/index.html > >This may be compared with a previous experiment at: >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ead/index.html >That involved only one stretch and fold cycle. > >Some people are telling that the way to get the big holes is to >mix only, not knead, and let the mixed dough sit in the fridge for >a long time so it will have a chance to knead itself. It would be >very helpful to me if those people would show their photographs >since, at the rate I am going, I may not have time to try everything >myself. I think some are recommending low-gluten flour. > >Yes, it is not sourdough. But sourdough makes the experiments >longer and more critical. I would like to make loaves like Iggy's >Francense (which is sourdough) but do not feel I am getting even >close. Please use the following link to see what I mean: >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/iggys.htm > >So help me if you can. Well, probably I am beyond help -- I am >crazily obsessed with these big elusive holes. Well, my wife and >family just loves my regular bread so maybe I should stick to that. > >--=20 >Dick Adams ><firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com >___________________ >Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 >http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html > > > > > > > Dick, I'll answer more fully this evening (GMT) but here are 2 pix that may be of interest, the first is straight yeast, the second the same bread but from sourdough. I think I may have posted the second previously, if so, my apologies. http://www.zippyimages.com/files/109452/DSC00023.jpg http://www.zippyimages.com/files/109454/DSC00077.jpg I do have more difficulty making large holed bread from sourdough, but one thing to say immediately is that I use at least 80% hydration and 4-6 stretch and fold cycles, depending on how the dough reacts. The bread in both pictures was made at 110% hydration. I think, next time I will cut back to 105% on the SD version to compensate for the extra dough relaxation that SD seems to exhhibit. And, yes, once the "Big Hole Bug" strikes, rationality goes walkabout and "Size is everything"<g>. John |
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>See also the thread named: Will - Hydration alone producing=20 >gluten structure. > >Which is the best way to obtained coarsely-texture bread (big holes)? >Well, here again I make one more small effort to continue my search. The only way I, personally, can reliably obtain large holes is by using hydrations ranging from 80 to 110% with either intensive mechanical dough development, stretch and fold, a Gosselin fridge rest or any combination of the 3. > >In this case: intense kneading, 75% hydration, bread flour (~14% = >protein), >two rises proceeded by stretching and folding. This is straight dough, >not sourdough. > >The proposition is that stretching and folding later on in the rise may >coalesce some bubbles, for a more open eventual texture. > >Please see results at: >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ad2/index.html > >This may be compared with a previous experiment at: >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ead/index.html >That involved only one stretch and fold cycle. > >Some people are telling that the way to get the big holes is to >mix only, not knead, and let the mixed dough sit in the fridge for >a long time so it will have a chance to knead itself. I have only found long fridge rest helpful to the production of holes when it is a Gosselin rest. A long rest after fementation has not enhanced the structure. (flavour is a different matter) >It would be >very helpful to me if those people would show their photographs >since, at the rate I am going, I may not have time to try everything >myself. I think some are recommending low-gluten flour. > >Yes, it is not sourdough. But sourdough makes the experiments >longer and more critical. Agreed. Unless you're a master of sourdough, which I most definitely am not, the whole process of developing a new bread is most easily done with commercial yeast and then converting to sourdough. Or so I find, at least. > I would like to make loaves like Iggy's >Francense (which is sourdough) but do not feel I am getting even >close. Please use the following link to see what I mean: >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/iggys.htm That is very fine bread, do you know anything about the techniques used? > >So help me if you can. Well, probably I am beyond help -- I am >crazily obsessed with these big elusive holes. The spider of Rustic Crumb winds another hapless victim in her coils<g> >Well, my wife and >family just loves my regular bread so maybe I should stick to that. > I don't always bake big holed bread, There's room for all kinds of bread in my house just as long as it's good, of it's type. >--=20 >Dick Adams ><firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com >___________________ >Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 >http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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>See also the thread named: Will - Hydration alone producing=20 >gluten structure. > >Which is the best way to obtained coarsely-texture bread (big holes)? >Well, here again I make one more small effort to continue my search. The only way I, personally, can reliably obtain large holes is by using hydrations ranging from 80 to 110% with either intensive mechanical dough development, stretch and fold, a Gosselin fridge rest or any combination of the 3. > >In this case: intense kneading, 75% hydration, bread flour (~14% = >protein), >two rises proceeded by stretching and folding. This is straight dough, >not sourdough. > >The proposition is that stretching and folding later on in the rise may >coalesce some bubbles, for a more open eventual texture. > >Please see results at: >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ad2/index.html > >This may be compared with a previous experiment at: >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ead/index.html >That involved only one stretch and fold cycle. > >Some people are telling that the way to get the big holes is to >mix only, not knead, and let the mixed dough sit in the fridge for >a long time so it will have a chance to knead itself. I have only found long fridge rest helpful to the production of holes when it is a Gosselin rest. A long rest after fementation has not enhanced the structure. (flavour is a different matter) >It would be >very helpful to me if those people would show their photographs >since, at the rate I am going, I may not have time to try everything >myself. I think some are recommending low-gluten flour. > >Yes, it is not sourdough. But sourdough makes the experiments >longer and more critical. Agreed. Unless you're a master of sourdough, which I most definitely am not, the whole process of developing a new bread is most easily done with commercial yeast and then converting to sourdough. Or so I find, at least. > I would like to make loaves like Iggy's >Francense (which is sourdough) but do not feel I am getting even >close. Please use the following link to see what I mean: >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/iggys.htm That is very fine bread, do you know anything about the techniques used? > >So help me if you can. Well, probably I am beyond help -- I am >crazily obsessed with these big elusive holes. The spider of Rustic Crumb winds another hapless victim in her coils<g> >Well, my wife and >family just loves my regular bread so maybe I should stick to that. > I don't always bake big holed bread, There's room for all kinds of bread in my house just as long as it's good, of it's type. >--=20 >Dick Adams ><firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com >___________________ >Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 >http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
Dick Adams wrote:
> Please see results at: > http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ad2/index.html If you're speaking of the Middle-Eastern herb, it's more properly transliterated as za'atar. B/ |
Dick Adams wrote:
> Please see results at: > http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ad2/index.html If you're speaking of the Middle-Eastern herb, it's more properly transliterated as za'atar. B/ |
In article
>, "Dick Adams" > wrote: > See also the thread named: Will - Hydration alone producing > gluten structure. > > Which is the best way to obtained coarsely-texture bread (big holes)? > Well, here again I make one more small effort to continue my search. > > In this case: intense kneading, 75% hydration, bread flour (~14% protein), > two rises proceeded by stretching and folding. This is straight dough, > not sourdough. > > The proposition is that stretching and folding later on in the rise may > coalesce some bubbles, for a more open eventual texture. The real rational for large irregular holes and shaping is the following: When you stretch and fold you are creating layers of dough with large air pockets. The number and distribution of the pockets will depend on how hard you handle the dough - If you merely fold, one large air sheet can be imagined. If you then stretch and fold again, the sheet will have smaller pockets because smaller pockets will form as you handle the dough (you are sticking together opposing sheets of dough by handling). So with 2 or 3 cycles of stretching and folding you will have created a larger network of air pockets irregularly distributed. If you handle the dough very hard and squeeze all the air by squeezing the opposing dough halves together in a stretch and fold cycle, you will have few irregular holes. On the other hand if you are too gentle the final loaf will have obvious sheets of air separating sheets of dough. What I do is stretch and then roll up the dough (same effect as above). The dough is then flattened out (gently so as to not squeeze out too many air pockets) and rolled up at 90 degrees to the previous cycle. A few cycles of this and you will get the effect you desire. So the secret for large holes is during the shaping. Roland |
In article
>, "Dick Adams" > wrote: > See also the thread named: Will - Hydration alone producing > gluten structure. > > Which is the best way to obtained coarsely-texture bread (big holes)? > Well, here again I make one more small effort to continue my search. > > In this case: intense kneading, 75% hydration, bread flour (~14% protein), > two rises proceeded by stretching and folding. This is straight dough, > not sourdough. > > The proposition is that stretching and folding later on in the rise may > coalesce some bubbles, for a more open eventual texture. The real rational for large irregular holes and shaping is the following: When you stretch and fold you are creating layers of dough with large air pockets. The number and distribution of the pockets will depend on how hard you handle the dough - If you merely fold, one large air sheet can be imagined. If you then stretch and fold again, the sheet will have smaller pockets because smaller pockets will form as you handle the dough (you are sticking together opposing sheets of dough by handling). So with 2 or 3 cycles of stretching and folding you will have created a larger network of air pockets irregularly distributed. If you handle the dough very hard and squeeze all the air by squeezing the opposing dough halves together in a stretch and fold cycle, you will have few irregular holes. On the other hand if you are too gentle the final loaf will have obvious sheets of air separating sheets of dough. What I do is stretch and then roll up the dough (same effect as above). The dough is then flattened out (gently so as to not squeeze out too many air pockets) and rolled up at 90 degrees to the previous cycle. A few cycles of this and you will get the effect you desire. So the secret for large holes is during the shaping. Roland |
"Joe Doe" > wrote in message = ... > What I do is stretch and then roll up the dough (same effect as = above). =20 > The dough is then flattened out (gently so as to not squeeze out too=20 > many air pockets) and rolled up at 90 degrees to the previous cycle. = A=20 > few cycles of this and you will get the effect you desire. So the = secret=20 > for large holes is during the shaping. Can you post some photos showing the holes in your bread? > Roland If your name is Roland, why do you identify as Joe Doe? The was a = Roland at r.f.s. once in past years -- he was very knowledgeable. --=20 Dick Adams (Sourdough minimalist) ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
"Joe Doe" > wrote in message = ... > What I do is stretch and then roll up the dough (same effect as = above). =20 > The dough is then flattened out (gently so as to not squeeze out too=20 > many air pockets) and rolled up at 90 degrees to the previous cycle. = A=20 > few cycles of this and you will get the effect you desire. So the = secret=20 > for large holes is during the shaping. Can you post some photos showing the holes in your bread? > Roland If your name is Roland, why do you identify as Joe Doe? The was a = Roland at r.f.s. once in past years -- he was very knowledgeable. --=20 Dick Adams (Sourdough minimalist) ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
In article
>, "Dick Adams" > wrote: > > > Roland > > If your name is Roland, why do you identify as Joe Doe? The was a Roland > at r.f.s. once in past years -- he was very knowledgeable. Same Roland. Just got tired of spam, hence the anonymity. Almost gave up baking completely since moving to Texas (too hot to heat up the house in summer). I let all my cultures die. Got a culture from someone locally recently. Interestingly, this culture raises bread very quickly but is very mild (it almost doubles every 1-2 hours). It is almost akin to the SDI Russian starter. Just started baking again and bake irregularly. Will post a picture when I bake next. Have lurked here occasionally every few years. The level of knowledge and commitment to baking has grown tremendously since the time I used to participate here long back. Will probably, go back to lurk mode. Just jumped in here, because I notice this question comes up often. I think intensive kneading makes a uniform crumb. Wet doughs have weaker walls of individual air cells so they may fuse to form larger cells. When you introduce the air pockets by shaping (i.e. make a rectangle and then roll it up and repeat the cycle or do cycles of stretch and fold) you are simply using a different trick to introduce air cells into the dough. Roland |
In article
>, "Dick Adams" > wrote: > > > Roland > > If your name is Roland, why do you identify as Joe Doe? The was a Roland > at r.f.s. once in past years -- he was very knowledgeable. Same Roland. Just got tired of spam, hence the anonymity. Almost gave up baking completely since moving to Texas (too hot to heat up the house in summer). I let all my cultures die. Got a culture from someone locally recently. Interestingly, this culture raises bread very quickly but is very mild (it almost doubles every 1-2 hours). It is almost akin to the SDI Russian starter. Just started baking again and bake irregularly. Will post a picture when I bake next. Have lurked here occasionally every few years. The level of knowledge and commitment to baking has grown tremendously since the time I used to participate here long back. Will probably, go back to lurk mode. Just jumped in here, because I notice this question comes up often. I think intensive kneading makes a uniform crumb. Wet doughs have weaker walls of individual air cells so they may fuse to form larger cells. When you introduce the air pockets by shaping (i.e. make a rectangle and then roll it up and repeat the cycle or do cycles of stretch and fold) you are simply using a different trick to introduce air cells into the dough. Roland |
Roland AKA "Joe Doe" > wrote in message = ... > ... Will post a picture when I bake next.=20 That's good. I think that pictures are good for generating interest. > ... Have lurked here occasionally every few years. You should have said something. It can be depressing when people disappear for years without a trace. =20 =20 > ... The level of knowledge and commitment to baking has grown=20 > tremendously since the time I used to participate here long back. Not to mention commitment to yakity-yak and to cascaded requoting. > ... I think intensive kneading makes a uniform crumb. Wet doughs have = > weaker walls of individual air cells so they may fuse to form larger=20 > cells. OK, looks like my next experiment should be with underkneaded wet dough. =20 =20 > When you introduce the air pockets by shaping (i.e. make a rectangle = and=20 > then roll it up and repeat the cycle or do cycles of stretch and = fold)=20 > you are simply using a different trick to introduce air cells into the = > dough. =20 Sounds good, but I don't want to try too many tricks at one time or I won't know which trick(s?) did the trick. --- DickA P.S. I still have all the stuff you sent in my now fat sourdough = notebook. |
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> >I think intensive kneading makes a uniform crumb. Not in my experience. I mix at relatively high speed for longer than most bakers and stretch and fold a lot, making a dough (or glop<g>) that is extremely elastic and extensible, giving the dough the abilty to form large pockets that are stable enough to bake due to the strength of the cell walls. I must stress that the preceding observations apply to high, 80%+ doughs. >Wet doughs haveweaker walls of individual air cells so they may fuse to form larger >cells. Not sure that "weaker" is how I would describe the elastic dough I produce<g> > <snip> John |
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> >I think intensive kneading makes a uniform crumb. Not in my experience. I mix at relatively high speed for longer than most bakers and stretch and fold a lot, making a dough (or glop<g>) that is extremely elastic and extensible, giving the dough the abilty to form large pockets that are stable enough to bake due to the strength of the cell walls. I must stress that the preceding observations apply to high, 80%+ doughs. >Wet doughs haveweaker walls of individual air cells so they may fuse to form larger >cells. Not sure that "weaker" is how I would describe the elastic dough I produce<g> > <snip> John |
<snip>
> >I think intensive kneading makes a uniform crumb. Not in my experience. I mix at relatively high speed for longer than most bakers and stretch and fold a lot, making a dough (or glop<g>) that is extremely elastic and extensible, giving the dough the abilty to form large pockets that are stable enough to bake due to the strength of the cell walls. I must stress that the preceding observations apply to high, 80%+ doughs. >Wet doughs haveweaker walls of individual air cells so they may fuse to form larger >cells. Not sure that "weaker" is how I would describe the elastic dough I produce<g> > <snip> John |
"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message = ... Roland had said: > > I think intensive kneading makes a uniform crumb. to which John replied: > Not in my experience. I mix at relatively high speed for longer than = most > bakers and stretch and fold a lot, making a dough (or glop<g>) that is > extremely elastic and extensible, giving the dough the ability to form = large > pockets that are stable enough to bake due to the strength of the cell = walls. That is my thought, too. I am guessing that good dough is needed for = good holes just like good soapsuds are needed for good soap bubbles. Of = course one cannot go too far with that analogy because of the profound = difference in the molecular structure between starch-gluten membranes and soapsuds. For dough I'd guess that well-arranged an optimally elongated gluten=20 tendrils would be a considerable advantage. However, one could alternatively propose, because of the well-known molecular forces at surfaces that, under appropriate conditions, the=20 macromolecules of dough would be arranged by those, from a helter- skelter state to start, to ordered, elastic/extensible, structures. > I must stress that the preceding observations apply to high, 80%+ = doughs. =20 I am still having trouble with the concept of bakers' hydration because = of the moisture already in dough when milled, and the moisture which is absorbed upon storage. So the 75% hydration I have claimed for my big-hole experiments could be considerably higher, depending on how those sources are considered. > > Wet doughs have weaker walls of individual air cells so they may = fuse=20 > > to form larger cells (says Roland, characteristically = straight-faced). > Not sure that "weaker" is how I would describe the elastic dough I=20 > produce<g> (says John, grinningly). Well, if water molecules are important in the matrix, the matrix may be worse or better depending on their relative abundance. We would really need to hear from Uncle Linus about that. Otherwise I suspect that empirical science is the best hope, = notwithstanding that the isolation of parameters and variables in extemporaneous kitchen = studies is problematic (says Dick, giggling quietly up his sleeve). --- DickA |
"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message = ... Roland had said: > > I think intensive kneading makes a uniform crumb. to which John replied: > Not in my experience. I mix at relatively high speed for longer than = most > bakers and stretch and fold a lot, making a dough (or glop<g>) that is > extremely elastic and extensible, giving the dough the ability to form = large > pockets that are stable enough to bake due to the strength of the cell = walls. That is my thought, too. I am guessing that good dough is needed for = good holes just like good soapsuds are needed for good soap bubbles. Of = course one cannot go too far with that analogy because of the profound = difference in the molecular structure between starch-gluten membranes and soapsuds. For dough I'd guess that well-arranged an optimally elongated gluten=20 tendrils would be a considerable advantage. However, one could alternatively propose, because of the well-known molecular forces at surfaces that, under appropriate conditions, the=20 macromolecules of dough would be arranged by those, from a helter- skelter state to start, to ordered, elastic/extensible, structures. > I must stress that the preceding observations apply to high, 80%+ = doughs. =20 I am still having trouble with the concept of bakers' hydration because = of the moisture already in dough when milled, and the moisture which is absorbed upon storage. So the 75% hydration I have claimed for my big-hole experiments could be considerably higher, depending on how those sources are considered. > > Wet doughs have weaker walls of individual air cells so they may = fuse=20 > > to form larger cells (says Roland, characteristically = straight-faced). > Not sure that "weaker" is how I would describe the elastic dough I=20 > produce<g> (says John, grinningly). Well, if water molecules are important in the matrix, the matrix may be worse or better depending on their relative abundance. We would really need to hear from Uncle Linus about that. Otherwise I suspect that empirical science is the best hope, = notwithstanding that the isolation of parameters and variables in extemporaneous kitchen = studies is problematic (says Dick, giggling quietly up his sleeve). --- DickA |
"Joe Doe" > wrote in message ... > In article > >, > "Dick Adams" > wrote: > > > > > > > Roland > > > > If your name is Roland, why do you identify as Joe Doe? The was a Roland > > at r.f.s. once in past years -- he was very knowledgeable. > > > Same Roland. > > Just got tired of spam, hence the anonymity. > > Almost gave up baking completely since moving to Texas (too hot to heat > up the house in summer). I let all my cultures die. Got a culture from > someone locally recently. Interestingly, this culture raises bread very > quickly but is very mild (it almost doubles every 1-2 hours). It is > almost akin to the SDI Russian starter. > > Just started baking again and bake irregularly. Will post a picture > when I bake next. > > Have lurked here occasionally every few years. > > The level of knowledge and commitment to baking has grown tremendously > since the time I used to participate here long back. > > > Will probably, go back to lurk mode. Just jumped in here, because I > notice this question comes up often. > > I think intensive kneading makes a uniform crumb. Wet doughs have > weaker walls of individual air cells so they may fuse to form larger > cells. > > When you introduce the air pockets by shaping (i.e. make a rectangle and > then roll it up and repeat the cycle or do cycles of stretch and fold) > you are simply using a different trick to introduce air cells into the > dough. > > Roland do cycles of stretch and fold "Stretch and fold" seems a common direction, and I would assume it means that, even if you practically pour your dough out, stretch it when you have put it onto a flat surface (marble) to an even larger size and then fold it into half 'sort of' gently, and then decide how many times you wish to stretch and fold it? Thanks, Dee |
"Joe Doe" > wrote in message ... > In article > >, > "Dick Adams" > wrote: > > > > > > > Roland > > > > If your name is Roland, why do you identify as Joe Doe? The was a Roland > > at r.f.s. once in past years -- he was very knowledgeable. > > > Same Roland. > > Just got tired of spam, hence the anonymity. > > Almost gave up baking completely since moving to Texas (too hot to heat > up the house in summer). I let all my cultures die. Got a culture from > someone locally recently. Interestingly, this culture raises bread very > quickly but is very mild (it almost doubles every 1-2 hours). It is > almost akin to the SDI Russian starter. > > Just started baking again and bake irregularly. Will post a picture > when I bake next. > > Have lurked here occasionally every few years. > > The level of knowledge and commitment to baking has grown tremendously > since the time I used to participate here long back. > > > Will probably, go back to lurk mode. Just jumped in here, because I > notice this question comes up often. > > I think intensive kneading makes a uniform crumb. Wet doughs have > weaker walls of individual air cells so they may fuse to form larger > cells. > > When you introduce the air pockets by shaping (i.e. make a rectangle and > then roll it up and repeat the cycle or do cycles of stretch and fold) > you are simply using a different trick to introduce air cells into the > dough. > > Roland do cycles of stretch and fold "Stretch and fold" seems a common direction, and I would assume it means that, even if you practically pour your dough out, stretch it when you have put it onto a flat surface (marble) to an even larger size and then fold it into half 'sort of' gently, and then decide how many times you wish to stretch and fold it? Thanks, Dee |
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>Roland had said: > >> > I think intensive kneading makes a uniform crumb. > >to which John replied: > >> Not in my experience. I mix at relatively high speed for longer than = >most >> bakers and stretch and fold a lot, making a dough (or glop<g>) that is >> extremely elastic and extensible, giving the dough the ability to form = >large >> pockets that are stable enough to bake due to the strength of the cell = >walls. > >That is my thought, too. I am guessing that good dough is needed for = >good >holes just like good soapsuds are needed for good soap bubbles. Of = >course >one cannot go too far with that analogy because of the profound = >difference >in the molecular structure between starch-gluten membranes and soapsuds. >For dough I'd guess that well-arranged an optimally elongated gluten=20 >tendrils would be a considerable advantage. "well arranged" gluten is why I and many others, rotate the dough horizontally through 90 degrees afetr each stretch and fold. The analogy here is those glass/resin laminates that have alternate layers of glass strands laid at 90 degrees to each other. I can, sometimes convince myself that it makes a difference but I'd be lying if I said I could prove it. > >However, one could alternatively propose, because of the well-known >molecular forces at surfaces that, under appropriate conditions, the=20 >macromolecules of dough would be arranged by those, from a helter- >skelter state to start, to ordered, elastic/extensible, structures. > >> I must stress that the preceding observations apply to high, 80%+ = >doughs. =20 > >I am still having trouble with the concept of bakers' hydration because = >of >the moisture already in dough when milled, and the moisture which is >absorbed upon storage. So the 75% hydration I have claimed for my >big-hole experiments could be considerably higher, depending on how >those sources are considered. Agreed. I take bakers' hydration only as a rough guide to the handling qualities of the dough. The wetter doughs also absorb some flour from the stretch and fold process so the fiinal hydration is lower than the mixed hydration. > >> > Wet doughs have weaker walls of individual air cells so they may = >fuse=20 >> > to form larger cells (says Roland, characteristically = >straight-faced). > >> Not sure that "weaker" is how I would describe the elastic dough I=20 >> produce<g> (says John, grinningly). > >Well, if water molecules are important in the matrix, the matrix may be >worse or better depending on their relative abundance. We would really >need to hear from Uncle Linus about that. > >Otherwise I suspect that empirical science is the best hope, = >notwithstanding >that the isolation of parameters and variables in extemporaneous kitchen = > >studies is problematic (says Dick, giggling quietly up his sleeve). "Problematic"? Dick, you have a talent for understatement. I would have said "Damn near impossible. > >--- >DickA John |
>
>Roland had said: > >> > I think intensive kneading makes a uniform crumb. > >to which John replied: > >> Not in my experience. I mix at relatively high speed for longer than = >most >> bakers and stretch and fold a lot, making a dough (or glop<g>) that is >> extremely elastic and extensible, giving the dough the ability to form = >large >> pockets that are stable enough to bake due to the strength of the cell = >walls. > >That is my thought, too. I am guessing that good dough is needed for = >good >holes just like good soapsuds are needed for good soap bubbles. Of = >course >one cannot go too far with that analogy because of the profound = >difference >in the molecular structure between starch-gluten membranes and soapsuds. >For dough I'd guess that well-arranged an optimally elongated gluten=20 >tendrils would be a considerable advantage. "well arranged" gluten is why I and many others, rotate the dough horizontally through 90 degrees afetr each stretch and fold. The analogy here is those glass/resin laminates that have alternate layers of glass strands laid at 90 degrees to each other. I can, sometimes convince myself that it makes a difference but I'd be lying if I said I could prove it. > >However, one could alternatively propose, because of the well-known >molecular forces at surfaces that, under appropriate conditions, the=20 >macromolecules of dough would be arranged by those, from a helter- >skelter state to start, to ordered, elastic/extensible, structures. > >> I must stress that the preceding observations apply to high, 80%+ = >doughs. =20 > >I am still having trouble with the concept of bakers' hydration because = >of >the moisture already in dough when milled, and the moisture which is >absorbed upon storage. So the 75% hydration I have claimed for my >big-hole experiments could be considerably higher, depending on how >those sources are considered. Agreed. I take bakers' hydration only as a rough guide to the handling qualities of the dough. The wetter doughs also absorb some flour from the stretch and fold process so the fiinal hydration is lower than the mixed hydration. > >> > Wet doughs have weaker walls of individual air cells so they may = >fuse=20 >> > to form larger cells (says Roland, characteristically = >straight-faced). > >> Not sure that "weaker" is how I would describe the elastic dough I=20 >> produce<g> (says John, grinningly). > >Well, if water molecules are important in the matrix, the matrix may be >worse or better depending on their relative abundance. We would really >need to hear from Uncle Linus about that. > >Otherwise I suspect that empirical science is the best hope, = >notwithstanding >that the isolation of parameters and variables in extemporaneous kitchen = > >studies is problematic (says Dick, giggling quietly up his sleeve). "Problematic"? Dick, you have a talent for understatement. I would have said "Damn near impossible. > >--- >DickA John |
>
>do cycles of stretch and fold > >"Stretch and fold" seems a common direction, and I would assume it means >that, even if you practically pour your dough out, stretch it when you have >put it onto a flat surface (marble) to an even larger size and then fold it >into half 'sort of' gently, and then decide how many times you wish to >stretch and fold it? > >Thanks, Dee > > Turn, or pour the dough onto a floured surface and, using your bench knife to slide underneath, roll the dough in the flour until it no longer sticks. Grasp both ends of the dough and stretch it to an oblong with sides in the ratio 3:1. Fold the dough in 3, like a letter, which will give you a rough square, turn through 90 degrees and leave to rest for 10 minutes or so, it varies with the hydration, temperature, flour, and, for all I know, the phases of the Moon<g> . Repeat as many times as necesssary times, leaving the dough to rise until doubled, after the last stretch and fold, before dividing into loaves. The dough will be very soft but astonishingly springy and quite easy to handle. HTH John |
>
>do cycles of stretch and fold > >"Stretch and fold" seems a common direction, and I would assume it means >that, even if you practically pour your dough out, stretch it when you have >put it onto a flat surface (marble) to an even larger size and then fold it >into half 'sort of' gently, and then decide how many times you wish to >stretch and fold it? > >Thanks, Dee > > Turn, or pour the dough onto a floured surface and, using your bench knife to slide underneath, roll the dough in the flour until it no longer sticks. Grasp both ends of the dough and stretch it to an oblong with sides in the ratio 3:1. Fold the dough in 3, like a letter, which will give you a rough square, turn through 90 degrees and leave to rest for 10 minutes or so, it varies with the hydration, temperature, flour, and, for all I know, the phases of the Moon<g> . Repeat as many times as necesssary times, leaving the dough to rise until doubled, after the last stretch and fold, before dividing into loaves. The dough will be very soft but astonishingly springy and quite easy to handle. HTH John |
>
>do cycles of stretch and fold > >"Stretch and fold" seems a common direction, and I would assume it means >that, even if you practically pour your dough out, stretch it when you have >put it onto a flat surface (marble) to an even larger size and then fold it >into half 'sort of' gently, and then decide how many times you wish to >stretch and fold it? > >Thanks, Dee > > Turn, or pour the dough onto a floured surface and, using your bench knife to slide underneath, roll the dough in the flour until it no longer sticks. Grasp both ends of the dough and stretch it to an oblong with sides in the ratio 3:1. Fold the dough in 3, like a letter, which will give you a rough square, turn through 90 degrees and leave to rest for 10 minutes or so, it varies with the hydration, temperature, flour, and, for all I know, the phases of the Moon<g> . Repeat as many times as necesssary times, leaving the dough to rise until doubled, after the last stretch and fold, before dividing into loaves. The dough will be very soft but astonishingly springy and quite easy to handle. HTH John |
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While certainly not a scientific validation, I can vouch for John's S&F
technique; although just how it works is still somewhat a mystery to me. I spent a long time trying to get loaves that looked more like bread and less like fat pancakes, using drier doughs, and all manner of bannetons, pans, and other such aids--including voodoo incantations. But nothing has been able to touch the light, airy, free-form breads I get using S&F! As you get to the fourth & fifth cycle, the bread just starts "plumping" up on the table. When handled for that final forming, it feels limp and fallow, but one can see lots of sub-surface bubbles. Even after only a short time of final rising, the loft has begun to develop. Since the dough seems limp and slack when picked up, I'd have expected it to just lay there and grow wider. But it doesn't. It puffs up to an amazing degree. Then, when you hit it with heat, the darn thing doubles or more. I no longer have loaves that are flat-bottomed, rising to a soft dome. My loaves tend to come out more round (tubular) sans benefit of the typical metal baguette form. Given the seemingly inordinate oven spring, I recalled some time back that one of the more experienced wizards posting here had pointed out that this meant that the pre-bake rise hadn't been completed. To that end I keep on drawing out that last rise in an effort to find out where this thing can go. Only the need to satiate the greedy, grabby fingers at dinner time keeps me from letting it rise even longer (we like to tear up the freshly baked loaf and dip it in EVOO, chopped garlic, and a few drops of balsamic vinegar before dinner time. Waiting longer would put the finish after dinner...and that would never do around here. I'd have tearful grandkids and a mutiny on my hands...(:-o)! I've got a batch of HH Coccodrillo dough (see link below) at the very end of "Sponge, step-2" using a new starter just graciously sent to me by a reader in this forum. The darn thing's trying to crawl outta the tub and is threatening to take over my kitchen. So I gotta run and finish that thing off... http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...codrillo-2.htm Later all, Dusty -- Remove STORE to reply "Wcsjohn" > wrote in message ... > > >>do cycles of stretch and fold >> >>"Stretch and fold" seems a common direction, and I would assume it means >>that, even if you practically pour your dough out, stretch it when you >>have >>put it onto a flat surface (marble) to an even larger size and then fold >>it >>into half 'sort of' gently, and then decide how many times you wish to >>stretch and fold it? >> >>Thanks, Dee >> >> > > Turn, or pour the dough onto a floured surface and, using your bench knife > to > slide underneath, roll the dough in the flour until it no longer sticks. > Grasp > both ends of the dough and stretch it to an oblong with sides in the ratio > 3:1. > Fold the dough in 3, like a letter, which will give you a rough square, > turn > through 90 degrees and leave to rest for 10 minutes or so, it varies with > the > hydration, temperature, flour, and, for all I know, the phases of the > Moon<g> . > Repeat as many times as necesssary times, leaving the dough to rise until > doubled, after the last stretch and fold, before dividing into loaves. The > dough will be very soft but astonishingly springy and quite easy to > handle. > > HTH > > John > > > > |
While certainly not a scientific validation, I can vouch for John's S&F
technique; although just how it works is still somewhat a mystery to me. I spent a long time trying to get loaves that looked more like bread and less like fat pancakes, using drier doughs, and all manner of bannetons, pans, and other such aids--including voodoo incantations. But nothing has been able to touch the light, airy, free-form breads I get using S&F! As you get to the fourth & fifth cycle, the bread just starts "plumping" up on the table. When handled for that final forming, it feels limp and fallow, but one can see lots of sub-surface bubbles. Even after only a short time of final rising, the loft has begun to develop. Since the dough seems limp and slack when picked up, I'd have expected it to just lay there and grow wider. But it doesn't. It puffs up to an amazing degree. Then, when you hit it with heat, the darn thing doubles or more. I no longer have loaves that are flat-bottomed, rising to a soft dome. My loaves tend to come out more round (tubular) sans benefit of the typical metal baguette form. Given the seemingly inordinate oven spring, I recalled some time back that one of the more experienced wizards posting here had pointed out that this meant that the pre-bake rise hadn't been completed. To that end I keep on drawing out that last rise in an effort to find out where this thing can go. Only the need to satiate the greedy, grabby fingers at dinner time keeps me from letting it rise even longer (we like to tear up the freshly baked loaf and dip it in EVOO, chopped garlic, and a few drops of balsamic vinegar before dinner time. Waiting longer would put the finish after dinner...and that would never do around here. I'd have tearful grandkids and a mutiny on my hands...(:-o)! I've got a batch of HH Coccodrillo dough (see link below) at the very end of "Sponge, step-2" using a new starter just graciously sent to me by a reader in this forum. The darn thing's trying to crawl outta the tub and is threatening to take over my kitchen. So I gotta run and finish that thing off... http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...codrillo-2.htm Later all, Dusty -- Remove STORE to reply "Wcsjohn" > wrote in message ... > > >>do cycles of stretch and fold >> >>"Stretch and fold" seems a common direction, and I would assume it means >>that, even if you practically pour your dough out, stretch it when you >>have >>put it onto a flat surface (marble) to an even larger size and then fold >>it >>into half 'sort of' gently, and then decide how many times you wish to >>stretch and fold it? >> >>Thanks, Dee >> >> > > Turn, or pour the dough onto a floured surface and, using your bench knife > to > slide underneath, roll the dough in the flour until it no longer sticks. > Grasp > both ends of the dough and stretch it to an oblong with sides in the ratio > 3:1. > Fold the dough in 3, like a letter, which will give you a rough square, > turn > through 90 degrees and leave to rest for 10 minutes or so, it varies with > the > hydration, temperature, flour, and, for all I know, the phases of the > Moon<g> . > Repeat as many times as necesssary times, leaving the dough to rise until > doubled, after the last stretch and fold, before dividing into loaves. The > dough will be very soft but astonishingly springy and quite easy to > handle. > > HTH > > John > > > > |
"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message = ... > I mix at relatively high speed for longer than most bakers and stretch = > and fold a lot, making a dough (or glop<g>) that is extremely elastic=20 > and extensible ... John, the experiment at = http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/Francense/ seems to suggest that the stretching and folding is more important than the long, high-speed mixing. Compare with my recent other picture shows http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ead/index.html http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ad2/index.html where the dough was very thoroughly kneaded in a bread machine. What do you think? --- DickA |
"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message = ... > I mix at relatively high speed for longer than most bakers and stretch = > and fold a lot, making a dough (or glop<g>) that is extremely elastic=20 > and extensible ... John, the experiment at = http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/Francense/ seems to suggest that the stretching and folding is more important than the long, high-speed mixing. Compare with my recent other picture shows http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ead/index.html http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ad2/index.html where the dough was very thoroughly kneaded in a bread machine. What do you think? --- DickA |
>
>"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message = ... > >> I mix at relatively high speed for longer than most bakers and stretch = > >> and fold a lot, making a dough (or glop<g>) that is extremely elastic=20 >> and extensible ... > >John, the experiment at = >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/Francense/ >seems to suggest that the stretching and folding is more important than >the long, high-speed mixing. Compare with my recent other picture shows >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ead/index.html >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ad2/index.html >where the dough was very thoroughly kneaded in a bread machine. > >What do you think? > >--- >DickA > Dick, I agree with you, the real reason I normally mix for a relatively long time and high speed when making high hydration dough is that a well developed glop is a lot easier to handle during the initial stretch and fold cycles . I can, and occasionally do, make big holed bread entirely by hand, mixing the dough on the counter ( flour in a pile, make a well, liquid into the well, incorporate with your fingers, I'm sure you've "been there done that") and "kneading" it by grabbing handfuls and pulling up to stretch and mix the dough. It then goes into the S+F cycles and, usually, needs one or two more cycles than dough mixed intensively. If I were forced to make a quantitative assessment of the contributions made, to the developed dough's elasticity by mixing and S+F I would put it at about 25% mixing and 75% stretch and fold. That reasoning does not, however, apply to the really high-hydration doughs (100% +) I make regularly. They need intensive mixing and are not stretched and folded because it's extremely difficult to do so and it's not necessary. John |
>
>"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message = ... > >> I mix at relatively high speed for longer than most bakers and stretch = > >> and fold a lot, making a dough (or glop<g>) that is extremely elastic=20 >> and extensible ... > >John, the experiment at = >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/Francense/ >seems to suggest that the stretching and folding is more important than >the long, high-speed mixing. Compare with my recent other picture shows >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ead/index.html >http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ad2/index.html >where the dough was very thoroughly kneaded in a bread machine. > >What do you think? > >--- >DickA > Dick, I agree with you, the real reason I normally mix for a relatively long time and high speed when making high hydration dough is that a well developed glop is a lot easier to handle during the initial stretch and fold cycles . I can, and occasionally do, make big holed bread entirely by hand, mixing the dough on the counter ( flour in a pile, make a well, liquid into the well, incorporate with your fingers, I'm sure you've "been there done that") and "kneading" it by grabbing handfuls and pulling up to stretch and mix the dough. It then goes into the S+F cycles and, usually, needs one or two more cycles than dough mixed intensively. If I were forced to make a quantitative assessment of the contributions made, to the developed dough's elasticity by mixing and S+F I would put it at about 25% mixing and 75% stretch and fold. That reasoning does not, however, apply to the really high-hydration doughs (100% +) I make regularly. They need intensive mixing and are not stretched and folded because it's extremely difficult to do so and it's not necessary. John |
Wcsjohn wrote:
> > Turn, or pour the dough onto a floured surface and, using your bench knife to > slide underneath, roll the dough in the flour until it no longer sticks. Grasp > both ends of the dough and stretch it to an oblong with sides in the ratio 3:1. > Fold the dough in 3, like a letter, which will give you a rough square, turn > through 90 degrees and leave to rest for 10 minutes or so, it varies with the > hydration, temperature, flour, and, for all I know, the phases of the Moon<g> . > Repeat as many times as necesssary times, leaving the dough to rise until > doubled, after the last stretch and fold, before dividing into loaves. The > dough will be very soft but astonishingly springy and quite easy to handle. Thanks for the detailed instructions. I missed them the first time around and even failed with Google, and so I had been working off the assumption that S&F was just to stretch and fold and was so simple that you couldn't go wrong. So I have been holding the gooey dough in my hand, stretching it out like an accordian, then folding back in on itself, and doing that for about 5 minutes or until the dough feels developed. This method does not produce big holes (I've been doing it with hydrations betweeen 72 and 80), but it does do wonders and makes a light, springy loaf with even crumb. The hard part is separating the hands from the dough at the end. :-) But it's a lot of fun. A lot more fun than "traditional" kneading. |
>
>Thanks for the detailed instructions. I missed them the first time >around and even failed with Google, and so I had been working off the >assumption that S&F was just to stretch and fold and was so simple that >you couldn't go wrong. So I have been holding the gooey dough in my >hand, stretching it out like an accordian, then folding back in on >itself, and doing that for about 5 minutes or until the dough feels >developed. > >This method does not produce big holes (I've been doing it with >hydrations betweeen 72 and 80), but it does do wonders and makes a >light, springy loaf with even crumb. The hard part is separating the >hands from the dough at the end. :-) But it's a lot of fun. A lot more >fun than "traditional" kneading. > > There wasn't a "first time around" on this list<g>. Most of the discussion about Stretch 'n' Fold has been on alt.bread.recipes, that was the forum in which I was most active when I decided that the technique was well worth popularising. It really does take the fear out of high-hydration. The method you're using, interestingly, is the way Carol Field describes Ciabatta dough being kneaded in Italian bakeries. Did you evolve the method yourself or were you following Ms Field? John |
>
>Thanks for the detailed instructions. I missed them the first time >around and even failed with Google, and so I had been working off the >assumption that S&F was just to stretch and fold and was so simple that >you couldn't go wrong. So I have been holding the gooey dough in my >hand, stretching it out like an accordian, then folding back in on >itself, and doing that for about 5 minutes or until the dough feels >developed. > >This method does not produce big holes (I've been doing it with >hydrations betweeen 72 and 80), but it does do wonders and makes a >light, springy loaf with even crumb. The hard part is separating the >hands from the dough at the end. :-) But it's a lot of fun. A lot more >fun than "traditional" kneading. > > There wasn't a "first time around" on this list<g>. Most of the discussion about Stretch 'n' Fold has been on alt.bread.recipes, that was the forum in which I was most active when I decided that the technique was well worth popularising. It really does take the fear out of high-hydration. The method you're using, interestingly, is the way Carol Field describes Ciabatta dough being kneaded in Italian bakeries. Did you evolve the method yourself or were you following Ms Field? John |
Wcsjohn wrote:
> There wasn't a "first time around" on this list<g>. Most of the discussion > about Stretch 'n' Fold has been on alt.bread.recipes, that was the forum in > which I was most active when I decided that the technique was well worth > popularising. Oh good, then I'm not loosing my google touch. Although I should have thought to branch outside of this newsgroup... > The method you're using, interestingly, is the way Carol Field describes > Ciabatta dough being kneaded in Italian bakeries. Did you evolve the method > yourself or were you following Ms Field? All by myself, thinking I was "stretch and fold"ing all along. ;-) It's really quite natural with a high hydration dough as there is no need to worry about getting it off your hands until the end. |
Wcsjohn wrote:
> There wasn't a "first time around" on this list<g>. Most of the discussion > about Stretch 'n' Fold has been on alt.bread.recipes, that was the forum in > which I was most active when I decided that the technique was well worth > popularising. Oh good, then I'm not loosing my google touch. Although I should have thought to branch outside of this newsgroup... > The method you're using, interestingly, is the way Carol Field describes > Ciabatta dough being kneaded in Italian bakeries. Did you evolve the method > yourself or were you following Ms Field? All by myself, thinking I was "stretch and fold"ing all along. ;-) It's really quite natural with a high hydration dough as there is no need to worry about getting it off your hands until the end. |
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