sourdough starter question
 

I hope you all are not too far beyond this, but I am trying to make my
own sourdough starter from water and whole wheat flour only. I used
half water and and flour and because I read that I should keep it
between 70 and 80 degrees, I put it in the oven where the starter
light gives off some heat and I usually have good results with simple
yeast doughs in there.

The first day my mixture really bubbled up, well actually it bubbled
over and threw the lid off the glass, but it was somewhat promising.
Since then, though, it seems somewhat stagnant, not bubbly at all and
does not look like what I recall my mother's starter to look like at
all. It is quite watery and has a rather puky smell. Does anyone
here know if this starter is still alive or whether it should be
tossed and I should start over?
On a related note, does anyone recommend starting a starter with
commercial yeast? And what are the pros and cons when making a
starter of making it with water or some milk products, such as simply
milk and/or yoghurt?

There is an overwhelming amount of information out there, but somehow
I can't really make rhyme or reason of any of it. Thanks for any
advice anyone may have.

Miriam

On 8 Sep 2004 15:32:20 -0700, (Miriam)
wrote:

>I hope you all are not too far beyond this, but I am trying to make my
>own sourdough starter from water and whole wheat flour only. I used
>half water and and flour and because I read that I should keep it
>between 70 and 80 degrees, I put it in the oven where the starter
>light gives off some heat and I usually have good results with simple
>yeast doughs in there.
>
>The first day my mixture really bubbled up, well actually it bubbled
>over and threw the lid off the glass, but it was somewhat promising.
>Since then, though, it seems somewhat stagnant, not bubbly at all and
>does not look like what I recall my mother's starter to look like at
>all. It is quite watery and has a rather puky smell. Does anyone
>here know if this starter is still alive or whether it should be
>tossed and I should start over?
>On a related note, does anyone recommend starting a starter with
>commercial yeast? And what are the pros and cons when making a
>starter of making it with water or some milk products, such as simply
>milk and/or yoghurt?
>
>There is an overwhelming amount of information out there, but somehow
>I can't really make rhyme or reason of any of it. Thanks for any
>advice anyone may have.
>
>Miriam

Hi Miriam,

I would not suggest that you toss it. Just keep feeding it for several
more days. The reason that it seemed more vigorous at the outset might
be that something other than the desired mix of yeasts and
lactobacilli may have been growing. That often happens.

But, don't give up on it...

Also, you need not grow gallons of starter. Just a bit is all you
need. So, when you feed it, take a spoonful of what you have, add to
that some water and flour and toss the remainder of your older
starter.

Finally, the critters that grow in a healthy sourdough culture are not
the same as those in diary products, fruit, etc.

My suggestion would be that you eat the dairy products, and feed your
young culture with flour and water only.

Have fun, and good luck with it,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 8 Sep 2004 15:32:20 -0700, (Miriam)
wrote:

>I hope you all are not too far beyond this, but I am trying to make my
>own sourdough starter from water and whole wheat flour only. I used
>half water and and flour and because I read that I should keep it
>between 70 and 80 degrees, I put it in the oven where the starter
>light gives off some heat and I usually have good results with simple
>yeast doughs in there.
>
>The first day my mixture really bubbled up, well actually it bubbled
>over and threw the lid off the glass, but it was somewhat promising.
>Since then, though, it seems somewhat stagnant, not bubbly at all and
>does not look like what I recall my mother's starter to look like at
>all. It is quite watery and has a rather puky smell. Does anyone
>here know if this starter is still alive or whether it should be
>tossed and I should start over?
>On a related note, does anyone recommend starting a starter with
>commercial yeast? And what are the pros and cons when making a
>starter of making it with water or some milk products, such as simply
>milk and/or yoghurt?
>
>There is an overwhelming amount of information out there, but somehow
>I can't really make rhyme or reason of any of it. Thanks for any
>advice anyone may have.
>
>Miriam

Hi Miriam,

I would not suggest that you toss it. Just keep feeding it for several
more days. The reason that it seemed more vigorous at the outset might
be that something other than the desired mix of yeasts and
lactobacilli may have been growing. That often happens.

But, don't give up on it...

Also, you need not grow gallons of starter. Just a bit is all you
need. So, when you feed it, take a spoonful of what you have, add to
that some water and flour and toss the remainder of your older
starter.

Finally, the critters that grow in a healthy sourdough culture are not
the same as those in diary products, fruit, etc.

My suggestion would be that you eat the dairy products, and feed your
young culture with flour and water only.

Have fun, and good luck with it,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 8 Sep 2004 15:32:20 -0700, (Miriam)
wrote:

>I hope you all are not too far beyond this, but I am trying to make my
>own sourdough starter from water and whole wheat flour only. I used
>half water and and flour and because I read that I should keep it
>between 70 and 80 degrees, I put it in the oven where the starter
>light gives off some heat and I usually have good results with simple
>yeast doughs in there.
>
>The first day my mixture really bubbled up, well actually it bubbled
>over and threw the lid off the glass, but it was somewhat promising.
>Since then, though, it seems somewhat stagnant, not bubbly at all and
>does not look like what I recall my mother's starter to look like at
>all. It is quite watery and has a rather puky smell. Does anyone
>here know if this starter is still alive or whether it should be
>tossed and I should start over?
>On a related note, does anyone recommend starting a starter with
>commercial yeast? And what are the pros and cons when making a
>starter of making it with water or some milk products, such as simply
>milk and/or yoghurt?
>
>There is an overwhelming amount of information out there, but somehow
>I can't really make rhyme or reason of any of it. Thanks for any
>advice anyone may have.
>
>Miriam

Hi Miriam,

I would not suggest that you toss it. Just keep feeding it for several
more days. The reason that it seemed more vigorous at the outset might
be that something other than the desired mix of yeasts and
lactobacilli may have been growing. That often happens.

But, don't give up on it...

Also, you need not grow gallons of starter. Just a bit is all you
need. So, when you feed it, take a spoonful of what you have, add to
that some water and flour and toss the remainder of your older
starter.

Finally, the critters that grow in a healthy sourdough culture are not
the same as those in diary products, fruit, etc.

My suggestion would be that you eat the dairy products, and feed your
young culture with flour and water only.

Have fun, and good luck with it,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

> I would not suggest that you toss it. Just keep feeding it for several
> more days. The reason that it seemed more vigorous at the outset might
> be that something other than the desired mix of yeasts and
> lactobacilli may have been growing. That often happens.

Kenneth, I've been growing a starter for the last week and I'm hoping to
try baking with it this weekend (see earlier thread). One question I
have is can I keep the starter out of the fridge and keep feeding it
daily indefinitely, or does the time come when I have to put it in the
fridge and suspend its activity? Will its flavour/activity develop if I
keep doing daily feeds, or am I just wasting time and flour?

Cheers,

james

Kenneth wrote:

> I would not suggest that you toss it. Just keep feeding it for several
> more days. The reason that it seemed more vigorous at the outset might
> be that something other than the desired mix of yeasts and
> lactobacilli may have been growing. That often happens.

Kenneth, I've been growing a starter for the last week and I'm hoping to
try baking with it this weekend (see earlier thread). One question I
have is can I keep the starter out of the fridge and keep feeding it
daily indefinitely, or does the time come when I have to put it in the
fridge and suspend its activity? Will its flavour/activity develop if I
keep doing daily feeds, or am I just wasting time and flour?

Cheers,

james

James wrote:
> Kenneth wrote:
>
> > I would not suggest that you toss it. Just keep feeding it for
several
> > more days. The reason that it seemed more vigorous at the outset
might
> > be that something other than the desired mix of yeasts and
> > lactobacilli may have been growing. That often happens.
>
> Kenneth, I've been growing a starter for the last week and I'm hoping
to
> try baking with it this weekend (see earlier thread). One question I
> have is can I keep the starter out of the fridge and keep feeding it
> daily indefinitely, or does the time come when I have to put it in
the
> fridge and suspend its activity? Will its flavour/activity develop if
I
> keep doing daily feeds, or am I just wasting time and flour?
>
> Cheers,
>
> james

You crazy man.

James wrote:
> Kenneth wrote:
>
> > I would not suggest that you toss it. Just keep feeding it for
several
> > more days. The reason that it seemed more vigorous at the outset
might
> > be that something other than the desired mix of yeasts and
> > lactobacilli may have been growing. That often happens.
>
> Kenneth, I've been growing a starter for the last week and I'm hoping
to
> try baking with it this weekend (see earlier thread). One question I
> have is can I keep the starter out of the fridge and keep feeding it
> daily indefinitely, or does the time come when I have to put it in
the
> fridge and suspend its activity? Will its flavour/activity develop if
I
> keep doing daily feeds, or am I just wasting time and flour?
>
> Cheers,
>
> james

You crazy man.

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:11:36 +0800, James >
wrote:

>Kenneth wrote:
>
>> I would not suggest that you toss it. Just keep feeding it for several
>> more days. The reason that it seemed more vigorous at the outset might
>> be that something other than the desired mix of yeasts and
>> lactobacilli may have been growing. That often happens.
>
>Kenneth, I've been growing a starter for the last week and I'm hoping to
>try baking with it this weekend (see earlier thread). One question I
>have is can I keep the starter out of the fridge and keep feeding it
>daily indefinitely, or does the time come when I have to put it in the
>fridge and suspend its activity? Will its flavour/activity develop if I
>keep doing daily feeds, or am I just wasting time and flour?
>
>Cheers,
>
>james

Hi James,

The only difference of significance between storing the starter at
room temp and in the fridge is "speed."

The colder temperatures simply slows the process of growth.

If you store it cold you would have to warm it, and then feed it a few
cycles before using it. Those feeds would bring it back to the same
state as it would display were it stored at room temperature.

The only disadvantage to storing it at room temperature is that it
will require more frequent feedings. The upside is that it would be
ready to use more quickly.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:11:36 +0800, James >
wrote:

>Kenneth wrote:
>
>> I would not suggest that you toss it. Just keep feeding it for several
>> more days. The reason that it seemed more vigorous at the outset might
>> be that something other than the desired mix of yeasts and
>> lactobacilli may have been growing. That often happens.
>
>Kenneth, I've been growing a starter for the last week and I'm hoping to
>try baking with it this weekend (see earlier thread). One question I
>have is can I keep the starter out of the fridge and keep feeding it
>daily indefinitely, or does the time come when I have to put it in the
>fridge and suspend its activity? Will its flavour/activity develop if I
>keep doing daily feeds, or am I just wasting time and flour?
>
>Cheers,
>
>james

Hi James,

The only difference of significance between storing the starter at
room temp and in the fridge is "speed."

The colder temperatures simply slows the process of growth.

If you store it cold you would have to warm it, and then feed it a few
cycles before using it. Those feeds would bring it back to the same
state as it would display were it stored at room temperature.

The only disadvantage to storing it at room temperature is that it
will require more frequent feedings. The upside is that it would be
ready to use more quickly.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

At 05:25 AM 9/9/2004, Kenneth wrote:

>Hi James,
>
>The only difference of significance between storing the starter at
>room temp and in the fridge is "speed."

Well, since the growth factors of the organisms are temperature dependent
and have peaks at different temperatures, one would think that
growing/retarding starters at various temperatures would affect the
outcomes somewhat. If it's noticeable and/or controllable for us
home-sourheads is another question.

Samartha

>The colder temperatures simply slows the process of growth.
>
>If you store it cold you would have to warm it, and then feed it a few
>cycles before using it. Those feeds would bring it back to the same
>state as it would display were it stored at room temperature.
>
>The only disadvantage to storing it at room temperature is that it
>will require more frequent feedings. The upside is that it would be
>ready to use more quickly.
>
>HTH,
>
>--
>Kenneth
>
>If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>_______________________________________________


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

At 05:25 AM 9/9/2004, Kenneth wrote:

>Hi James,
>
>The only difference of significance between storing the starter at
>room temp and in the fridge is "speed."

Well, since the growth factors of the organisms are temperature dependent
and have peaks at different temperatures, one would think that
growing/retarding starters at various temperatures would affect the
outcomes somewhat. If it's noticeable and/or controllable for us
home-sourheads is another question.

Samartha

>The colder temperatures simply slows the process of growth.
>
>If you store it cold you would have to warm it, and then feed it a few
>cycles before using it. Those feeds would bring it back to the same
>state as it would display were it stored at room temperature.
>
>The only disadvantage to storing it at room temperature is that it
>will require more frequent feedings. The upside is that it would be
>ready to use more quickly.
>
>HTH,
>
>--
>Kenneth
>
>If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>_______________________________________________


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

Kenneth wrote:

> The only disadvantage to storing it at room temperature is that it
> will require more frequent feedings. The upside is that it would be
> ready to use more quickly.

Thanks for the advice, Kenneth. Once I've had a few more baking
expermints over the weekend then, I'll probably put the rest of my
starter in the fridge until the following weekend.

From my limited experience, I would second your earlier advice to "have
fun" with the whole process. Playing with my new starter of the last
week has been tremendously enjoyable and a got a real kick seeing it
actually raise a very rudimentary "loaf" this evening. The experience of
feeding and watching the starter has taught me more than all the (very
good) information in the faqs, and I feel like I'm gradually getting
more of a feel for how the whole thing works.

Cheers,

james

Kenneth wrote:

> The only disadvantage to storing it at room temperature is that it
> will require more frequent feedings. The upside is that it would be
> ready to use more quickly.

Thanks for the advice, Kenneth. Once I've had a few more baking
expermints over the weekend then, I'll probably put the rest of my
starter in the fridge until the following weekend.

From my limited experience, I would second your earlier advice to "have
fun" with the whole process. Playing with my new starter of the last
week has been tremendously enjoyable and a got a real kick seeing it
actually raise a very rudimentary "loaf" this evening. The experience of
feeding and watching the starter has taught me more than all the (very
good) information in the faqs, and I feel like I'm gradually getting
more of a feel for how the whole thing works.

Cheers,

james

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:29:49 -0600, Samartha
> wrote:

>At 05:25 AM 9/9/2004, Kenneth wrote:
>
>>Hi James,
>>
>>The only difference of significance between storing the starter at
>>room temp and in the fridge is "speed."
>
>Well, since the growth factors of the organisms are temperature dependent
>and have peaks at different temperatures, one would think that
>growing/retarding starters at various temperatures would affect the
>outcomes somewhat. If it's noticeable and/or controllable for us
>home-sourheads is another question.
>
>Samartha
>
>>The colder temperatures simply slows the process of growth.
>>
>>If you store it cold you would have to warm it, and then feed it a few
>>cycles before using it. Those feeds would bring it back to the same
>>state as it would display were it stored at room temperature.
>>
>>The only disadvantage to storing it at room temperature is that it
>>will require more frequent feedings. The upside is that it would be
>>ready to use more quickly.
>>
>>HTH,
>>
>>--
>>Kenneth
>>
>>If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>>______________________________________________ _
>
>
>remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

Hi Samartha,

Of course you are right, but I do wonder:

Do you think that there are likely to be noticeable differences
between a starter stored at room temperature (and fed on an
appropriate schedule) and one stored in the fridge, and then as I
suggested in the post above fed a few cycles at room temp?

There certainly might be. I just don't know.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Miriam" > wrote in message
om...
> I hope you all are not too far beyond this, but I am trying to make my
> own sourdough starter from water and whole wheat flour only. I used
> half water and and flour and because I read that I should keep it
> between 70 and 80 degrees, I put it in the oven where the starter
> light gives off some heat and I usually have good results with simple
> yeast doughs in there.
>
> The first day my mixture really bubbled up, well actually it bubbled
> over and threw the lid off the glass, but it was somewhat promising.
> Since then, though, it seems somewhat stagnant, not bubbly at all and
> does not look like what I recall my mother's starter to look like at
> all. It is quite watery and has a rather puky smell. Does anyone
> here know if this starter is still alive or whether it should be
> tossed and I should start over?
> On a related note, does anyone recommend starting a starter with
> commercial yeast? And what are the pros and cons when making a
> starter of making it with water or some milk products, such as simply
> milk and/or yoghurt?
>
> There is an overwhelming amount of information out there, but somehow
> I can't really make rhyme or reason of any of it. Thanks for any
> advice anyone may have.
>
> Miriam

"James" > wrote in message
...
> Kenneth wrote:
>
> > The only disadvantage to storing it at room temperature is that it
> > will require more frequent feedings. The upside is that it would be
> > ready to use more quickly.
>
> Thanks for the advice, Kenneth. Once I've had a few more baking
> expermints over the weekend then, I'll probably put the rest of my
> starter in the fridge until the following weekend.
>
> From my limited experience, I would second your earlier advice to "have
> fun" with the whole process. Playing with my new starter of the last
> week has been tremendously enjoyable and a got a real kick seeing it
> actually raise a very rudimentary "loaf" this evening. The experience of
> feeding and watching the starter has taught me more than all the (very
> good) information in the faqs, and I feel like I'm gradually getting
> more of a feel for how the whole thing works.
>
> Cheers,
>
> james

I keep my starter in a glass bowl covered with plastic film at room
temperature. I make sourdough bread only once per week. I pull the dried
"skin" from the starter, discard it, measure out what I need for the day's
bread and then replace the starter I took with flour and water. Then it
stays like that for another week. It's been working perfectly for many
months. I've never tried the refrigerator simply because I don't have room
for it.

Fred
Foodie Forums
http://www.foodieforums.com

"James" > wrote in message
...
> Kenneth wrote:
>
> > The only disadvantage to storing it at room temperature is that it
> > will require more frequent feedings. The upside is that it would be
> > ready to use more quickly.
>
> Thanks for the advice, Kenneth. Once I've had a few more baking
> expermints over the weekend then, I'll probably put the rest of my
> starter in the fridge until the following weekend.
>
> From my limited experience, I would second your earlier advice to "have
> fun" with the whole process. Playing with my new starter of the last
> week has been tremendously enjoyable and a got a real kick seeing it
> actually raise a very rudimentary "loaf" this evening. The experience of
> feeding and watching the starter has taught me more than all the (very
> good) information in the faqs, and I feel like I'm gradually getting
> more of a feel for how the whole thing works.
>
> Cheers,
>
> james

I keep my starter in a glass bowl covered with plastic film at room
temperature. I make sourdough bread only once per week. I pull the dried
"skin" from the starter, discard it, measure out what I need for the day's
bread and then replace the starter I took with flour and water. Then it
stays like that for another week. It's been working perfectly for many
months. I've never tried the refrigerator simply because I don't have room
for it.

Fred
Foodie Forums
http://www.foodieforums.com

Kenneth wrote:
>
> Do you think that there are likely to be noticeable differences
> between a starter stored at room temperature (and fed on an
> appropriate schedule) and one stored in the fridge, and then as I
> suggested in the post above fed a few cycles at room temp?
>
During the winter baking season I store the starter on the
kitchen counter feeding ~three times a day. After a week or
sometimes more, there are some noticible changes to the starter.
It changes color a bit for one thing with a shift towards
yellow. It also becomes more vigorous. The changes persist for
a time after the culture is returned to the refrigerator and once
weekly feedings. There is not a noticeable change to the bread.

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Kenneth wrote:
>
> Do you think that there are likely to be noticeable differences
> between a starter stored at room temperature (and fed on an
> appropriate schedule) and one stored in the fridge, and then as I
> suggested in the post above fed a few cycles at room temp?
>
During the winter baking season I store the starter on the
kitchen counter feeding ~three times a day. After a week or
sometimes more, there are some noticible changes to the starter.
It changes color a bit for one thing with a shift towards
yellow. It also becomes more vigorous. The changes persist for
a time after the culture is returned to the refrigerator and once
weekly feedings. There is not a noticeable change to the bread.

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Kenneth wrote:
>
> Do you think that there are likely to be noticeable differences
> between a starter stored at room temperature (and fed on an
> appropriate schedule) and one stored in the fridge, and then as I
> suggested in the post above fed a few cycles at room temp?
>
During the winter baking season I store the starter on the
kitchen counter feeding ~three times a day. After a week or
sometimes more, there are some noticible changes to the starter.
It changes color a bit for one thing with a shift towards
yellow. It also becomes more vigorous. The changes persist for
a time after the culture is returned to the refrigerator and once
weekly feedings. There is not a noticeable change to the bread.

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Kenneth,

I know for a fact, that a starter (grown with Detmold 3-Stage) kept in the
fridge for 2 - 4 weeks, then doubled and grown for 8 hours at the usual 85
F (or something) has at least one measurable different property: hydration.
To get the same dough consistency (all other components equal) as with a
fresh grown, I have to lower the "theoretical" hydration by at least 4 % or
more to get a similar workable dough. And that's a lot, if one considers
that the original starter flour amount (after taken out of the fridge)
causing this fluctuation is 14 % of total dough flour.

Now, that may not be exactly what you are asking. You think of growing the
starter for a while, which I don't do in this case. It's only one more
refreshment at that point.

But seeing the sensitivity of a starter process towards temperature
fluctuations and significant acidity changes in the final product when
prolonging the dough fermentation by only one hour, it's clear for me that
a fridge-kept starter is a different animal from a continuously grown at a
certain level.

Taste differences, acidity, crumb structure - all that is very subjective
and probably difficult to establish. Also, the argument exists that the
starter may change over time anyway - for the better;-)


So - maybe it needs to be checked out if one wants to know. I don't have
the time beyond what I wrote here.

Samartha


At 10:19 AM 9/9/2004, Kenneth wrote:

>Hi Samartha,
>
>Of course you are right, but I do wonder:
>
>Do you think that there are likely to be noticeable differences
>between a starter stored at room temperature (and fed on an
>appropriate schedule) and one stored in the fridge, and then as I
>suggested in the post above fed a few cycles at room temp?
>
>There certainly might be. I just don't know.
>
>All the best,
>
>--
>Kenneth
>
>If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>_______________________________________________
>Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

>http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough

===
Samartha Deva
Certified Rolfer
Certified Rolf Movement® Practitioner
Longmont, CO
www.IRolfYou.com
(303) 774-1375

remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

Kenneth,

I know for a fact, that a starter (grown with Detmold 3-Stage) kept in the
fridge for 2 - 4 weeks, then doubled and grown for 8 hours at the usual 85
F (or something) has at least one measurable different property: hydration.
To get the same dough consistency (all other components equal) as with a
fresh grown, I have to lower the "theoretical" hydration by at least 4 % or
more to get a similar workable dough. And that's a lot, if one considers
that the original starter flour amount (after taken out of the fridge)
causing this fluctuation is 14 % of total dough flour.

Now, that may not be exactly what you are asking. You think of growing the
starter for a while, which I don't do in this case. It's only one more
refreshment at that point.

But seeing the sensitivity of a starter process towards temperature
fluctuations and significant acidity changes in the final product when
prolonging the dough fermentation by only one hour, it's clear for me that
a fridge-kept starter is a different animal from a continuously grown at a
certain level.

Taste differences, acidity, crumb structure - all that is very subjective
and probably difficult to establish. Also, the argument exists that the
starter may change over time anyway - for the better;-)


So - maybe it needs to be checked out if one wants to know. I don't have
the time beyond what I wrote here.

Samartha


At 10:19 AM 9/9/2004, Kenneth wrote:

>Hi Samartha,
>
>Of course you are right, but I do wonder:
>
>Do you think that there are likely to be noticeable differences
>between a starter stored at room temperature (and fed on an
>appropriate schedule) and one stored in the fridge, and then as I
>suggested in the post above fed a few cycles at room temp?
>
>There certainly might be. I just don't know.
>
>All the best,
>
>--
>Kenneth
>
>If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>_______________________________________________
>Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

>http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough

===
Samartha Deva
Certified Rolfer
Certified Rolf Movement® Practitioner
Longmont, CO
www.IRolfYou.com
(303) 774-1375

remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

I think there was something about that in the Q&A FAQ -- hmmm,
let me see... Oh yeah,
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howshoul...tarterfor.html

I don't think the person who advises to keep the starter at room
temperature and feed it once a week at the time of breadmaking
can be getting such good results as he reports.

Feeding it three times daily, as Mr. Perry appears to be advising,
makes more sense, but I don't think he means to imply that he does
that all winter long.

Me, I keep the starter in the fridge, and feed it through three stages
(the last of which is large enough to be called a "sponge") each time =
the bread is made, like at=20
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...structions.doc

A good idea for beginners is to get a known starter from a trusted
source, and follow the simple instructions that come with it.

---
DickA

I think there was something about that in the Q&A FAQ -- hmmm,
let me see... Oh yeah,
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howshoul...tarterfor.html

I don't think the person who advises to keep the starter at room
temperature and feed it once a week at the time of breadmaking
can be getting such good results as he reports.

Feeding it three times daily, as Mr. Perry appears to be advising,
makes more sense, but I don't think he means to imply that he does
that all winter long.

Me, I keep the starter in the fridge, and feed it through three stages
(the last of which is large enough to be called a "sponge") each time =
the bread is made, like at=20
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...structions.doc

A good idea for beginners is to get a known starter from a trusted
source, and follow the simple instructions that come with it.

---
DickA

I think there was something about that in the Q&A FAQ -- hmmm,
let me see... Oh yeah,
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howshoul...tarterfor.html

I don't think the person who advises to keep the starter at room
temperature and feed it once a week at the time of breadmaking
can be getting such good results as he reports.

Feeding it three times daily, as Mr. Perry appears to be advising,
makes more sense, but I don't think he means to imply that he does
that all winter long.

Me, I keep the starter in the fridge, and feed it through three stages
(the last of which is large enough to be called a "sponge") each time =
the bread is made, like at=20
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...structions.doc

A good idea for beginners is to get a known starter from a trusted
source, and follow the simple instructions that come with it.

---
DickA

Dick Adams wrote:

> I think there was something about that in the Q&A FAQ -- hmmm,
> let me see... Oh yeah,
> http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howshoul...tarterfor.html

What I was originally asking was is there any point to keeping my newly
created starter at room temperature and feeding it regularly (i.e. will
its flavour or vigour continue to develop now that it seems to be going
along nicely), or would I do just as well to put it in the fridge and
just pull it out when I want to bake with it. Since I'm going to use it
tomorrow, it doesn't really matter, but I thought that I'd ask the
question as the faqs were a little hazy on this issue other than to say
the starter will "continue to develop for a few more days".

> I don't think the person who advises to keep the starter at room
> temperature and feed it once a week at the time of breadmaking
> can be getting such good results as he reports.

I've been feeding mine around every 24 hours. Even at 24 hours, the
starter is still bubbling and rising. Is it ok to feed it before all
activity ceases, or should I wait for it to stop rising? (I might add
that the starter spends about 1/2 that time in my kitchen with the
heating turned off, at about 12-15C, so perhaps that is why I can get
away with feeding it less often)

> Feeding it three times daily, as Mr. Perry appears to be advising,
> makes more sense, but I don't think he means to imply that he does
> that all winter long.

Sorry, I'm fairly new here - is Kenneth Mr. Perry?

> Me, I keep the starter in the fridge, and feed it through three stages
> (the last of which is large enough to be called a "sponge") each time the bread is made, like at
> http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...structions.doc

Ah, this leads to something else I've been wondering about. If I double
my starter volume every time I feed it to the point where I have the
amount called for by a recipe, then can I just use that as the "sponge"
rather than using a small amount of starter to create a "sponge"? If so,
should I wait for the starter to be at its peak before I make the dough
with it, or can I use it at any time in its cycle?

> A good idea for beginners is to get a known starter from a trusted
> source, and follow the simple instructions that come with it.

I know, but I've more fun doing this than you can imagine, and I feel
like I've learned lots, so even if my results are unpredictable I've
certainly enjoyed the journey.

Cheers,

james

Dick Adams wrote:

> I think there was something about that in the Q&A FAQ -- hmmm,
> let me see... Oh yeah,
> http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howshoul...tarterfor.html

What I was originally asking was is there any point to keeping my newly
created starter at room temperature and feeding it regularly (i.e. will
its flavour or vigour continue to develop now that it seems to be going
along nicely), or would I do just as well to put it in the fridge and
just pull it out when I want to bake with it. Since I'm going to use it
tomorrow, it doesn't really matter, but I thought that I'd ask the
question as the faqs were a little hazy on this issue other than to say
the starter will "continue to develop for a few more days".

> I don't think the person who advises to keep the starter at room
> temperature and feed it once a week at the time of breadmaking
> can be getting such good results as he reports.

I've been feeding mine around every 24 hours. Even at 24 hours, the
starter is still bubbling and rising. Is it ok to feed it before all
activity ceases, or should I wait for it to stop rising? (I might add
that the starter spends about 1/2 that time in my kitchen with the
heating turned off, at about 12-15C, so perhaps that is why I can get
away with feeding it less often)

> Feeding it three times daily, as Mr. Perry appears to be advising,
> makes more sense, but I don't think he means to imply that he does
> that all winter long.

Sorry, I'm fairly new here - is Kenneth Mr. Perry?

> Me, I keep the starter in the fridge, and feed it through three stages
> (the last of which is large enough to be called a "sponge") each time the bread is made, like at
> http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...structions.doc

Ah, this leads to something else I've been wondering about. If I double
my starter volume every time I feed it to the point where I have the
amount called for by a recipe, then can I just use that as the "sponge"
rather than using a small amount of starter to create a "sponge"? If so,
should I wait for the starter to be at its peak before I make the dough
with it, or can I use it at any time in its cycle?

> A good idea for beginners is to get a known starter from a trusted
> source, and follow the simple instructions that come with it.

I know, but I've more fun doing this than you can imagine, and I feel
like I've learned lots, so even if my results are unpredictable I've
certainly enjoyed the journey.

Cheers,

james

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:26:14 +0800, James >
wrote:

>Sorry, I'm fairly new here - is Kenneth Mr. Perry?

Hi James,

Nope...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:26:14 +0800, James >
wrote:

>Sorry, I'm fairly new here - is Kenneth Mr. Perry?

Hi James,

Nope...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:26:14 +0800, James >
wrote:

>Sorry, I'm fairly new here - is Kenneth Mr. Perry?

Hi James,

Nope...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:26:14 +0800, James >
wrote:

>I know, but I've more fun doing this than you can imagine, and I feel
>like I've learned lots, so even if my results are unpredictable I've
>certainly enjoyed the journey.

Hello again,

Given that we are home, hobby bakers. It would seem that you
understand what this is all about.

As I said at some earlier point: "Have fun...!"

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:26:14 +0800, James >
wrote:

>I know, but I've more fun doing this than you can imagine, and I feel
>like I've learned lots, so even if my results are unpredictable I've
>certainly enjoyed the journey.

Hello again,

Given that we are home, hobby bakers. It would seem that you
understand what this is all about.

As I said at some earlier point: "Have fun...!"

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"James" > wrote in message=20
...

> ... the faqs were a little hazy on this issue other than to say=20
> the starter will "continue to develop for a few more days".

At room temperature, feeding a well-maintained starter will
engender a burst of fermentative activity which will last for
several hours, maybe even eight or ten. At refrigerator=20
temperatures, the same cycle may last for several days.

> Even at 24 hours, the starter is still bubbling and rising.=20
> Is it ok to feed it before all activity ceases, or should=20
> I wait for it to stop rising?=20

I'd guess that the cycle will shorten as you continue to=20
feed. Feeding before activity ceases seems to me to be
the best idea. The idea is to stay on the straight (exponential)
portion of the growth curve=20
( http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#SEC9 )
as suggested by
http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...rowthcurve.GIF

> (I might add that the starter spends about 1/2 that time=20
> in my kitchen with the heating turned off, at about 12-15C,=20
> so perhaps that is why I can get away with feeding it less often).

Fermentation is strongly temperature-dependent. You can get away
with feeding even less often if you refrigerate your storage culture =
(starter).

> Sorry, I'm fairly new here - is Kenneth Mr. Perry?

Mr. Perry is entirely different from Kenneth.
=20
> should I wait for the starter to be at its peak before I
> make the dough with it, or can I use it at any time in its cycle?

Preferments, including sponge, should be taken/used at the point
of maximal activity. Knowing when that is takes some experience,
or prodding from you kitchen faeries.

> I know, but I've more fun doing this than you can imagine, and I feel=20
> like I've learned lots, so even if my results are unpredictable I've=20
> certainly enjoyed the journey.

Probably I will not turn out to be your best guide. Kenneth is more
favorable towards pragmatism and metrological precision, whereas=20
Mr. Perry leans a bit towards mythology and communication with the
spirit world.

--=20
Dick Adams
(Sourdough minimalist)
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

"James" > wrote in message=20
...

> ... the faqs were a little hazy on this issue other than to say=20
> the starter will "continue to develop for a few more days".

At room temperature, feeding a well-maintained starter will
engender a burst of fermentative activity which will last for
several hours, maybe even eight or ten. At refrigerator=20
temperatures, the same cycle may last for several days.

> Even at 24 hours, the starter is still bubbling and rising.=20
> Is it ok to feed it before all activity ceases, or should=20
> I wait for it to stop rising?=20

I'd guess that the cycle will shorten as you continue to=20
feed. Feeding before activity ceases seems to me to be
the best idea. The idea is to stay on the straight (exponential)
portion of the growth curve=20
( http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#SEC9 )
as suggested by
http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...rowthcurve.GIF

> (I might add that the starter spends about 1/2 that time=20
> in my kitchen with the heating turned off, at about 12-15C,=20
> so perhaps that is why I can get away with feeding it less often).

Fermentation is strongly temperature-dependent. You can get away
with feeding even less often if you refrigerate your storage culture =
(starter).

> Sorry, I'm fairly new here - is Kenneth Mr. Perry?

Mr. Perry is entirely different from Kenneth.
=20
> should I wait for the starter to be at its peak before I
> make the dough with it, or can I use it at any time in its cycle?

Preferments, including sponge, should be taken/used at the point
of maximal activity. Knowing when that is takes some experience,
or prodding from you kitchen faeries.

> I know, but I've more fun doing this than you can imagine, and I feel=20
> like I've learned lots, so even if my results are unpredictable I've=20
> certainly enjoyed the journey.

Probably I will not turn out to be your best guide. Kenneth is more
favorable towards pragmatism and metrological precision, whereas=20
Mr. Perry leans a bit towards mythology and communication with the
spirit world.

--=20
Dick Adams
(Sourdough minimalist)
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

"James" > wrote in message
...
snip
> I know, but I've more fun doing this than you can imagine, and I feel
> like I've learned lots, so even if my results are unpredictable I've
> certainly enjoyed the journey.
>
> Cheers,
>
> james

Since you are enjoying the learning experience, why don't you experiment a
little further and learn a little more about your starter and what happens
when you feed it? Feed your starter and place it in a clean, straight-sided
container for the 24 hour period. Using a piece of tape that you can write
on, run the tape down the container from top to bottom. Mark the tape and
note the time every time you observe the level in the container. This
should help you figure out your starters activity schedule and help you
determine approximately when your starter reaches its peak.
Janet

"James" > wrote in message
...
snip
> I know, but I've more fun doing this than you can imagine, and I feel
> like I've learned lots, so even if my results are unpredictable I've
> certainly enjoyed the journey.
>
> Cheers,
>
> james

Since you are enjoying the learning experience, why don't you experiment a
little further and learn a little more about your starter and what happens
when you feed it? Feed your starter and place it in a clean, straight-sided
container for the 24 hour period. Using a piece of tape that you can write
on, run the tape down the container from top to bottom. Mark the tape and
note the time every time you observe the level in the container. This
should help you figure out your starters activity schedule and help you
determine approximately when your starter reaches its peak.
Janet

At 07:19 AM 9/10/2004, DA wrote:
> I wait for it to stop rising?
>
>I'd guess that the cycle will shorten as you continue to
>feed. Feeding before activity ceases seems to me to be
>the best idea. The idea is to stay on the straight (exponential)
>portion of the growth curve
>( http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#SEC9 )
>as suggested by
>http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...rowthcurve.GIF

Dick - you got this a bit wrong (don't know if I ever told you?).

The left side ( Y-axis ) is supposed reflect be the number of critters per
gram which reaches a saturation and then declines. That's a relative value.
What you show is the total number of critters which increases, that's the
absolute number of critters in your starter. If you want to show that,
that's fine but you should say so and you will still have the initial
hesitation (the green line) because with a refreshment, the pH gets bumped
up and they will have to retool their machinery to adjust for that, amongst
other things. In that phase, the number of critters does not increase.

Samartha



remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

At 07:19 AM 9/10/2004, DA wrote:
> I wait for it to stop rising?
>
>I'd guess that the cycle will shorten as you continue to
>feed. Feeding before activity ceases seems to me to be
>the best idea. The idea is to stay on the straight (exponential)
>portion of the growth curve
>( http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#SEC9 )
>as suggested by
>http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...rowthcurve.GIF

Dick - you got this a bit wrong (don't know if I ever told you?).

The left side ( Y-axis ) is supposed reflect be the number of critters per
gram which reaches a saturation and then declines. That's a relative value.
What you show is the total number of critters which increases, that's the
absolute number of critters in your starter. If you want to show that,
that's fine but you should say so and you will still have the initial
hesitation (the green line) because with a refreshment, the pH gets bumped
up and they will have to retool their machinery to adjust for that, amongst
other things. In that phase, the number of critters does not increase.

Samartha



remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

On 9/10/04 8:54 AM, "Janet Bostwick" > wrote:

>
> "James" > wrote in message
> ...
> snip
>> I know, but I've more fun doing this than you can imagine, and I feel
>> like I've learned lots, so even if my results are unpredictable I've
>> certainly enjoyed the journey.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> james
>
> Since you are enjoying the learning experience, why don't you experiment a
> little further and learn a little more about your starter and what happens
> when you feed it? Feed your starter and place it in a clean, straight-sided
> container for the 24 hour period. Using a piece of tape that you can write
> on, run the tape down the container from top to bottom. Mark the tape and
> note the time every time you observe the level in the container. This
> should help you figure out your starters activity schedule and help you
> determine approximately when your starter reaches its peak.
> Janet

Wonderful!

In my old life in direct marketing, this is what we called a BGO or
"blinding glimpse of the obvious". A BGO is rare, occurring when someone
avoids the clutter and zeros in on the most elegant (and often parsimonious)
solution to a challenge or objective.

Haven't seen this piece of advice in any of the books...

Will


>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough