I recently made the "Poilane" sourdough loaf out of Peter Reinhart's
book "The Bread Baker's Apprentice". It is the first whole-wheat
sourdough bread that I've made, so I am a little unsure about what the
interior crumb structure would be like. As many of you have already
probably guessed, my loaf came out very, very dense, no open crumb at
all. However, it is good...it almost has a chocolate flavor to it,
very earthy and satisfying with some butter. But, I'm wondering if
this is the bane of all sourdough (and yeasted) breads. Is it even
possible to get a nice open crumb with a 100% whole wheat loaf? I'm
really not sure as to the gluten % of the whole wheat flour that I
bought, but I'm sure it was pretty low (I could tell when I was
kneading that the loaf was going to be "dense").
I'm considering one of 2 things: Adding some vital wheat gluten, or
going to 1/2 whole wheat flour and 1/2 high gluten bread flour loaf,
or some combination of the two. If possible, though, I'd like to leave
out both and still be able to get a nice crumb structure.

As I said in a previous post, I recently visited Acme bakery and
purchased an absolutely delicious whole-wheat boule from them. The
crumb structure on that bread was perfect, large irregular whole and
nice and chewy. I don't remember exactly, but in looking at the list
of ingredients on the package I don't remember seeing the addition of
gluten or any other flour "strengtheners".

Thoughts? What is Poilane's crumb structure, for those of you lucky
enough to have eaten on of his loaves?

Thanks,

Phil

"Phil" > wrote in message
om...
>
>
> As I said in a previous post, I recently visited Acme bakery and
> purchased an absolutely delicious whole-wheat boule from them. The
> crumb structure on that bread was perfect, large irregular whole and
> nice and chewy. I don't remember exactly, but in looking at the list
> of ingredients on the package I don't remember seeing the addition of
> gluten or any other flour "strengtheners".
>
> Thoughts? What is Poilane's crumb structure, for those of you lucky
> enough to have eaten on of his loaves?
>
It varies. The loaf is of medium density and not light and fluffy. There
is an overall "background" of 1-2mm holes with, in one example, a modest
number of 3-5mm holes, randomly scattered, and rare 10/15/25mm holes. A
second piece has more 3-5mm holes. I've just measured the pieces I have in
the freezer.
For your next attempt, it might be worthwhile sieving the WW flour with a
fine, kitchen sieve to remove the larger bran particles. Poilne uses a
softer wheat flour than we would normally use and in addition, he uses up to
30% spelt.
I'll send you a couple of photos of the real thing to the e-mail address
above. If it is false, e-mail me gdotdolbyatshawdotca

Graham

graham wrote:

> Poil=EF=BF=BDne uses a softer wheat flour than we would normally use

Could you put in a measure of cornstarch (cornflour to=20
Anglo-Anglophones) to "soften" it? If you mean less gluten?

B/

"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
...
graham wrote:

> Poil?ne uses a softer wheat flour than we would normally use

Could you put in a measure of cornstarch (cornflour to
Anglo-Anglophones) to "soften" it? If you mean less gluten?



No. Just use AP flour with a protein content of around 11%.
Graham

graham wrote:

> "Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
> ...
> graham wrote:
>
>> Poil?ne uses a softer wheat flour than we would normally use
>
> Could you put in a measure of cornstarch (cornflour to
> Anglo-Anglophones) to "soften" it? If you mean less gluten?

>
> No. Just use AP flour with a protein content of around 11%.
> Graham

And if the AP flour available is 13%?

B/

"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
...
> graham wrote:
>
> > "Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > graham wrote:
> >
> >> Poil?ne uses a softer wheat flour than we would normally use
> >
> > Could you put in a measure of cornstarch (cornflour to
> > Anglo-Anglophones) to "soften" it? If you mean less gluten?
>
> >
> > No. Just use AP flour with a protein content of around 11%.
> > Graham
>
> And if the AP flour available is 13%?
>
> B/
Use it!

Graham

"graham" > wrote
> For your next attempt, it might be worthwhile sieving the WW flour with a
> fine, kitchen sieve to remove the larger bran particles.

First of all, thanks for the pics Graham. It was really enlightening
to compare my loaf (which Reinhart implies is exactly the same as
Poilane's) to one of the actual loaves. I did, in fact, attempt to
"strain" *most* of the bran particles out of the (medium-grind) ww
flour. I must not have done a very good job, because the color of the
crumb was a much, *much* darker color than the pics of the loaf
posted. My sieve must not have been fine enough.


> Poilne uses asofter wheat flour than we would normally use

I can't believe he uses a softer (as in lower gluten %) flour for his
breads...although I have read that in Europe most of the flour is much
softer than in America. But, if the hypothesis that high gluten flour
is required for "holey" bread is correct, I don't understand how he
can get the crumb structure that he does in his loaves. Unless the
whole theory is bunk--and most any gluten % flour (given certain
limits) will produce an pleasing crumb structure such as the one
pictured.

Brian Mailman wrote:
> graham wrote:
>
>> "Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> graham wrote:
>>
>>> Poil?ne uses a softer wheat flour than we would normally use
>>
>>
>> Could you put in a measure of cornstarch (cornflour to
>> Anglo-Anglophones) to "soften" it? If you mean less gluten?
>
>
>>
>> No. Just use AP flour with a protein content of around 11%.
>> Graham
>
>
> And if the AP flour available is 13%?
>
> B/
Wow! Just where is that flour located? You are describing an attribute
of bread flour.
--
Alan


"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
neither do we."

........President George W. Bush, at the signing of the $417
billion defense-spending bill, August, 2004

"Phil" > wrote in message
om...
> "graham" > wrote
> > For your next attempt, it might be worthwhile sieving the WW flour with
a
> > fine, kitchen sieve to remove the larger bran particles.
>
> First of all, thanks for the pics Graham. It was really enlightening
> to compare my loaf (which Reinhart implies is exactly the same as
> Poilane's

It is made in the same "spirit" but the recipe is different, the flour is
different and you probably don't have a wood-fired oven.


) to one of the actual loaves. I did, in fact, attempt to
> "strain" *most* of the bran particles out of the (medium-grind) ww
> flour. I must not have done a very good job, because the color of the
> crumb was a much, *much* darker color than the pics of the loaf
> posted. My sieve must not have been fine enough.

Daniel Leader in "Bread Alone" discusses the flour types used in
Poilne-like bread. He has some strange ideas about making sourdough
cultures but I won't go into that!

>
>
> > Poilne uses asofter wheat flour than we would normally use
>
> I can't believe he uses a softer (as in lower gluten %) flour for his
> breads...although I have read that in Europe most of the flour is much
> softer than in America. But, if the hypothesis that high gluten flour
> is required for "holey" bread is correct,

It isn't!

I don't understand how he
> can get the crumb structure that he does in his loaves. Unless the
> whole theory is bunk--and most any gluten % flour (given certain
> limits) will produce an pleasing crumb structure such as the one
> pictured.

Visit www.poilane.fr/ to read up on his philosophy on bread-making.
Actually, a lot of it is just hype (his company just makes good bread - the
rest is self publicity and salesmanship) but you should be able to glean
some info from it. To make an adequate comparison, you will have to try
some of his bread. They will Fedex it anywhere so you could try some as a
special treat. It'll probably end up costing you about $80 for the package.
If you do send for some, include a walnut loaf in your order.
I have eaten the pain au levain of other French boulangères and they were
just as good, if different. The whole point is to make a bread with a
complex, satisfying taste and a subtle sourness with, perhaps, each batch
slightly different. Uniformity comes with wonderbread.
Graham

graham wrote:

> "Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
> ...
>> graham wrote:
>>
>> > "Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > graham wrote:
>> >
>> >> Poil?ne uses a softer wheat flour than we would normally use
>> >
>> > Could you put in a measure of cornstarch (cornflour to
>> > Anglo-Anglophones) to "soften" it? If you mean less gluten?
>>
>> >
>> > No. Just use AP flour with a protein content of around 11%.
>> > Graham
>>
>> And if the AP flour available is 13%?

> Use it!

And the answer to the original question rather than something flip and
dismissive is.... ?

B/

alzelt wrote:

>
> Brian Mailman wrote:
>> graham wrote:
>>
>>> "Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> graham wrote:
>>>
>>>> Poil?ne uses a softer wheat flour than we would normally use
>>>
>>>
>>> Could you put in a measure of cornstarch (cornflour to
>>> Anglo-Anglophones) to "soften" it? If you mean less gluten?
>>
>>
>>>
>>> No. Just use AP flour with a protein content of around 11%.
>>> Graham
>>
>>
>> And if the AP flour available is 13%?

> Wow! Just where is that flour located? You are describing an attribute
> of bread flour.

San Francisco... specifically, the Safeway at Church/Market.

House brand AP is 13%, Pillsbury Better for Bread is 14% and what I buy
is 16% (Stonebuhr).

B/