It seems logical to me that if one were to import a starter from another
area that the starter in time would change character as it absorbed local
microorganisms. It makes me wonder about the value of using someone else's
starter from another geographic area.

My own starter - flour and water from scratch is now over 3 months old and
is making very flavorful bread. In fact I now have to keep my fermentation
time to under 12 hours or the bread is too sour. I used to ferment 24 hours
but that doesn't work any more.

I shared some bread with a local sourdough baker who uses a starter that
started in San Francisco. Our breads tasted very comparable to one another.
Mine was a little more sour because I had fermented a little longer but the
taste was very similar. He took some of my starter because he liked the
taste of my bread better than his. I can't help but think his starter has
become just like my starter over a period of time. Is there a point in
importing a starter?

Fred wrote:
>
>
> I can't help but think his starter has
> become just like my starter over a period of time. Is there a point in
> importing a starter?

Probably none at all, for you. However, I will tell you that I
did not know what good starter was until I got my hands on one of
the strains that are "known good".

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Fred wrote:
>
>
> I can't help but think his starter has
> become just like my starter over a period of time. Is there a point in
> importing a starter?

Probably none at all, for you. However, I will tell you that I
did not know what good starter was until I got my hands on one of
the strains that are "known good".

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Fred wrote:
>
>
> I can't help but think his starter has
> become just like my starter over a period of time. Is there a point in
> importing a starter?

Probably none at all, for you. However, I will tell you that I
did not know what good starter was until I got my hands on one of
the strains that are "known good".

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

At 06:15 PM 7/30/2004, Fred wrote:
[...]
>I can't help but think his starter has
>become just like my starter over a period of time. Is there a point in
>importing a starter?

Probably yes, if you consider the time it takes to establish a good starter
and a certain randomness involved with the process of growing your own.

One thing I would like to point out however, in what your experience is:

Isn't it interesting that the same organisms (LB SF) have been found to be
dominating in established sourdoughs all over the world?

Could it be that the environment you are providing (grain products and
water) will over time allow the sourdough specific organisms to prevail (i.
e. outcompete all the other's)?

As a matter of fact, research has found that the LB SF's are able to
outcompete other organisms due to their properties:

"It appears that the LB SF's high capacity to metabolize maltose very
rapidly is the cause for the prevalence of this organism in continuously
propagated sourdoughs."

(That's somewhere in the http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html
with a reference to the research document.)

If you think, the environment you provide for your sourdough: continuous
supply of watered grain products (starches and sugars) - where else in
nature does it exist?

On grapes, perhaps? ;-)

Fact is that so far, they (LB SF, and LB pontis) have nowhere been found in
nature except in established sourdoughs.

So, maybe there is a chance with your sourdough, that the typical sourdough
organisms for the environment (grain and water) have established themselves.

As for your increased acidity - the ratios and activities (mainly acid
production) of the two dominating organisms (yeast and LB bacteria) can
easily be influenced by the processing parameters such as temperature,
hydration, inoculation amount etc.

With this, may I propose an alternative perspective to your "my sourdough
is location specific" view in that what you are seeing is continuously
propagated sourdough specific and only dependent on processing parameters
independent from your location?

Samartha





remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

At 06:15 PM 7/30/2004, Fred wrote:
[...]
>I can't help but think his starter has
>become just like my starter over a period of time. Is there a point in
>importing a starter?

Probably yes, if you consider the time it takes to establish a good starter
and a certain randomness involved with the process of growing your own.

One thing I would like to point out however, in what your experience is:

Isn't it interesting that the same organisms (LB SF) have been found to be
dominating in established sourdoughs all over the world?

Could it be that the environment you are providing (grain products and
water) will over time allow the sourdough specific organisms to prevail (i.
e. outcompete all the other's)?

As a matter of fact, research has found that the LB SF's are able to
outcompete other organisms due to their properties:

"It appears that the LB SF's high capacity to metabolize maltose very
rapidly is the cause for the prevalence of this organism in continuously
propagated sourdoughs."

(That's somewhere in the http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html
with a reference to the research document.)

If you think, the environment you provide for your sourdough: continuous
supply of watered grain products (starches and sugars) - where else in
nature does it exist?

On grapes, perhaps? ;-)

Fact is that so far, they (LB SF, and LB pontis) have nowhere been found in
nature except in established sourdoughs.

So, maybe there is a chance with your sourdough, that the typical sourdough
organisms for the environment (grain and water) have established themselves.

As for your increased acidity - the ratios and activities (mainly acid
production) of the two dominating organisms (yeast and LB bacteria) can
easily be influenced by the processing parameters such as temperature,
hydration, inoculation amount etc.

With this, may I propose an alternative perspective to your "my sourdough
is location specific" view in that what you are seeing is continuously
propagated sourdough specific and only dependent on processing parameters
independent from your location?

Samartha





remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

At 06:15 PM 7/30/2004, Fred wrote:
[...]
>I can't help but think his starter has
>become just like my starter over a period of time. Is there a point in
>importing a starter?

Probably yes, if you consider the time it takes to establish a good starter
and a certain randomness involved with the process of growing your own.

One thing I would like to point out however, in what your experience is:

Isn't it interesting that the same organisms (LB SF) have been found to be
dominating in established sourdoughs all over the world?

Could it be that the environment you are providing (grain products and
water) will over time allow the sourdough specific organisms to prevail (i.
e. outcompete all the other's)?

As a matter of fact, research has found that the LB SF's are able to
outcompete other organisms due to their properties:

"It appears that the LB SF's high capacity to metabolize maltose very
rapidly is the cause for the prevalence of this organism in continuously
propagated sourdoughs."

(That's somewhere in the http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html
with a reference to the research document.)

If you think, the environment you provide for your sourdough: continuous
supply of watered grain products (starches and sugars) - where else in
nature does it exist?

On grapes, perhaps? ;-)

Fact is that so far, they (LB SF, and LB pontis) have nowhere been found in
nature except in established sourdoughs.

So, maybe there is a chance with your sourdough, that the typical sourdough
organisms for the environment (grain and water) have established themselves.

As for your increased acidity - the ratios and activities (mainly acid
production) of the two dominating organisms (yeast and LB bacteria) can
easily be influenced by the processing parameters such as temperature,
hydration, inoculation amount etc.

With this, may I propose an alternative perspective to your "my sourdough
is location specific" view in that what you are seeing is continuously
propagated sourdough specific and only dependent on processing parameters
independent from your location?

Samartha





remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:33:13 -0600, Samartha
> wrote:

>Fact is that so far, they (LB SF, and LB pontis) have nowhere been found in
>nature except in established sourdoughs.

Hi Samartha,

I certainly may be wrong about this, but I thought that the LBs were
also found in people (dental plaque etc) though now I realize that you
may be commenting on the combination rather than the individual
constituents of the culture...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:33:13 -0600, Samartha
> wrote:

>Fact is that so far, they (LB SF, and LB pontis) have nowhere been found in
>nature except in established sourdoughs.

Hi Samartha,

I certainly may be wrong about this, but I thought that the LBs were
also found in people (dental plaque etc) though now I realize that you
may be commenting on the combination rather than the individual
constituents of the culture...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth, if you have any reference that the LB SF (lactobacillus
sanfrancisco and lactobacillus pontis) are found outside sourdoughs, that
would definitely be interesting.

I have read somewhere/somewhen that it was found in plaque of people
somewhere in Africa but when I remember right, this was discredited for the
reason that is wasn't done scientifically clean - or something to that extend.

LB's (acidophilus and others) definitely are found in the mouth of people,
and maybe if they have a carbo rich diet, the sourdough specific LB's come
flying into their open mouth?

The other thing with the LB SF is that they are very demanding - they need
yeast- and meat extract to grow on petri dishes, elements which are
probably provided by dying yeast cells in their sourdough environment - so,
could this environment be provided in human mouths?

This definitely would simplify growing LB SF based starters - just spit
into it. No more fridge-nursing and refreshing of starters :-)


Samartha



At 05:43 AM 7/31/2004, Kenneth wrote:
>On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:33:13 -0600, Samartha
> wrote:
>
> >Fact is that so far, they (LB SF, and LB pontis) have nowhere been found in
> >nature except in established sourdoughs.
>
>Hi Samartha,
>
>I certainly may be wrong about this, but I thought that the LBs were
>also found in people (dental plaque etc) though now I realize that you
>may be commenting on the combination rather than the individual
>constituents of the culture...
>
>All the best,
>
>--
>Kenneth
>
>If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>_______________________________________________
>Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

>http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

Kenneth, if you have any reference that the LB SF (lactobacillus
sanfrancisco and lactobacillus pontis) are found outside sourdoughs, that
would definitely be interesting.

I have read somewhere/somewhen that it was found in plaque of people
somewhere in Africa but when I remember right, this was discredited for the
reason that is wasn't done scientifically clean - or something to that extend.

LB's (acidophilus and others) definitely are found in the mouth of people,
and maybe if they have a carbo rich diet, the sourdough specific LB's come
flying into their open mouth?

The other thing with the LB SF is that they are very demanding - they need
yeast- and meat extract to grow on petri dishes, elements which are
probably provided by dying yeast cells in their sourdough environment - so,
could this environment be provided in human mouths?

This definitely would simplify growing LB SF based starters - just spit
into it. No more fridge-nursing and refreshing of starters :-)


Samartha



At 05:43 AM 7/31/2004, Kenneth wrote:
>On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:33:13 -0600, Samartha
> wrote:
>
> >Fact is that so far, they (LB SF, and LB pontis) have nowhere been found in
> >nature except in established sourdoughs.
>
>Hi Samartha,
>
>I certainly may be wrong about this, but I thought that the LBs were
>also found in people (dental plaque etc) though now I realize that you
>may be commenting on the combination rather than the individual
>constituents of the culture...
>
>All the best,
>
>--
>Kenneth
>
>If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>_______________________________________________
>Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

>http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

"Samartha" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.1091276653.29368.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.c=
om...

> > LB's (acidophilus and others) definitely are found in the mouth of =
people,=20

> > ... simplify growing LB SF based starters - just spit into it.

Sniffing also can do the trick. Also good for converting an heirloom =
culture into
you local variety.=20

"Samartha" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.1091276653.29368.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.c=
om...

> > LB's (acidophilus and others) definitely are found in the mouth of =
people,=20

> > ... simplify growing LB SF based starters - just spit into it.

Sniffing also can do the trick. Also good for converting an heirloom =
culture into
you local variety.=20

"Samartha" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.1091276653.29368.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.c=
om...

> > LB's (acidophilus and others) definitely are found in the mouth of =
people,=20

> > ... simplify growing LB SF based starters - just spit into it.

Sniffing also can do the trick. Also good for converting an heirloom =
culture into
you local variety.=20

On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:23:50 -0600, Samartha
> wrote:

>Kenneth, if you have any reference that the LB SF (lactobacillus
>sanfrancisco and lactobacillus pontis) are found outside sourdoughs, that
>would definitely be interesting.

Hi Samartha,

I am certain that I have read it more than once (though that is
certainly not to suggest that it is true. If I can find it, I will
pass it along...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:23:50 -0600, Samartha
> wrote:

>Kenneth, if you have any reference that the LB SF (lactobacillus
>sanfrancisco and lactobacillus pontis) are found outside sourdoughs, that
>would definitely be interesting.

Hi Samartha,

I am certain that I have read it more than once (though that is
certainly not to suggest that it is true. If I can find it, I will
pass it along...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:23:50 -0600, Samartha
> wrote:

>Kenneth, if you have any reference that the LB SF (lactobacillus
>sanfrancisco and lactobacillus pontis) are found outside sourdoughs, that
>would definitely be interesting.

Hi Samartha,

I am certain that I have read it more than once (though that is
certainly not to suggest that it is true. If I can find it, I will
pass it along...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Samartha" > wrote in message
news:mailman.1091276653.29368.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com...
> Kenneth, if you have any reference that the LB SF (lactobacillus
> sanfrancisco and lactobacillus pontis) are found outside sourdoughs, that
> would definitely be interesting.
>
> I have read somewhere/somewhen that it was found in plaque of people
> somewhere in Africa but when I remember right, this was discredited for
the
> reason that is wasn't done scientifically clean - or something to that
extend.
>
> LB's (acidophilus and others) definitely are found in the mouth of people,
> and maybe if they have a carbo rich diet, the sourdough specific LB's come
> flying into their open mouth?
>
> The other thing with the LB SF is that they are very demanding - they need
> yeast- and meat extract to grow on petri dishes, elements which are
> probably provided by dying yeast cells in their sourdough environment -
so,
> could this environment be provided in human mouths?
>
> This definitely would simplify growing LB SF based starters - just spit
> into it. No more fridge-nursing and refreshing of starters :-)
>
>
> Samartha
>
>
>
> At 05:43 AM 7/31/2004, Kenneth wrote:
> >On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:33:13 -0600, Samartha
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Fact is that so far, they (LB SF, and LB pontis) have nowhere been
found in
> > >nature except in established sourdoughs.
> >
> >Hi Samartha,
> >
> >I certainly may be wrong about this, but I thought that the LBs were
> >also found in people (dental plaque etc) though now I realize that you
> >may be commenting on the combination rather than the individual
> >constituents of the culture...
> >
> >All the best,
> >
> >--
> >Kenneth
> >
> >If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
> >_______________________________________________
> >Rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> >http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough
>
>
> remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address
>
Interesting. You suggest that a local culture will end up about the same no
matter the location. The critters in San Francisco aren't any different
than the critters in Mishawka, Indiana. Sourdough is sourdough is
sourdough. Interesting.

Fred
The Good Gourmet
http://www.thegoodgourmet.com

"Samartha" > wrote in message
news:mailman.1091276653.29368.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com...
> Kenneth, if you have any reference that the LB SF (lactobacillus
> sanfrancisco and lactobacillus pontis) are found outside sourdoughs, that
> would definitely be interesting.
>
> I have read somewhere/somewhen that it was found in plaque of people
> somewhere in Africa but when I remember right, this was discredited for
the
> reason that is wasn't done scientifically clean - or something to that
extend.
>
> LB's (acidophilus and others) definitely are found in the mouth of people,
> and maybe if they have a carbo rich diet, the sourdough specific LB's come
> flying into their open mouth?
>
> The other thing with the LB SF is that they are very demanding - they need
> yeast- and meat extract to grow on petri dishes, elements which are
> probably provided by dying yeast cells in their sourdough environment -
so,
> could this environment be provided in human mouths?
>
> This definitely would simplify growing LB SF based starters - just spit
> into it. No more fridge-nursing and refreshing of starters :-)
>
>
> Samartha
>
>
>
> At 05:43 AM 7/31/2004, Kenneth wrote:
> >On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:33:13 -0600, Samartha
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Fact is that so far, they (LB SF, and LB pontis) have nowhere been
found in
> > >nature except in established sourdoughs.
> >
> >Hi Samartha,
> >
> >I certainly may be wrong about this, but I thought that the LBs were
> >also found in people (dental plaque etc) though now I realize that you
> >may be commenting on the combination rather than the individual
> >constituents of the culture...
> >
> >All the best,
> >
> >--
> >Kenneth
> >
> >If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
> >_______________________________________________
> >Rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> >http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough
>
>
> remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address
>
Interesting. You suggest that a local culture will end up about the same no
matter the location. The critters in San Francisco aren't any different
than the critters in Mishawka, Indiana. Sourdough is sourdough is
sourdough. Interesting.

Fred
The Good Gourmet
http://www.thegoodgourmet.com

Fred wrote:
>
....You suggest that a local culture will end up about the same no
> matter the location. The critters in San Francisco aren't any different
> than the critters in Mishawka, Indiana. Sourdough is sourdough is
> sourdough...

Maybe. Maybe not.

I do think that bread making procedures, ingredients, and
environment have as much to do with the outcome as the strain of
sourdough being used, given good active cultures. However, Dr
Woods of Sourdough International claims considerable differences
in various cultures that he sells. He invites people to make his
"World Bread" recipe to check that claim out. He must believe it
to be so or he would not make a claim so eaisily challenged.

Further, while Lb SF may be found in all continuously propagated
SD cultures, it does not follow that they are all Identical. All
Humans are Homo Sapiens Sapiens, but you can cetainly find groups
in different geographic locations that have different
characteristics.

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Fred wrote:
>
....You suggest that a local culture will end up about the same no
> matter the location. The critters in San Francisco aren't any different
> than the critters in Mishawka, Indiana. Sourdough is sourdough is
> sourdough...

Maybe. Maybe not.

I do think that bread making procedures, ingredients, and
environment have as much to do with the outcome as the strain of
sourdough being used, given good active cultures. However, Dr
Woods of Sourdough International claims considerable differences
in various cultures that he sells. He invites people to make his
"World Bread" recipe to check that claim out. He must believe it
to be so or he would not make a claim so eaisily challenged.

Further, while Lb SF may be found in all continuously propagated
SD cultures, it does not follow that they are all Identical. All
Humans are Homo Sapiens Sapiens, but you can cetainly find groups
in different geographic locations that have different
characteristics.

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

On 8/1/04 9:06 PM, "Charles Perry" > wrote:

>
>
> Fred wrote:
>>
> ...You suggest that a local culture will end up about the same no
>> matter the location. The critters in San Francisco aren't any different
>> than the critters in Mishawka, Indiana. Sourdough is sourdough is
>> sourdough...
>
> Maybe. Maybe not.
>
> I do think that bread making procedures, ingredients, and
> environment have as much to do with the outcome as the strain of
> sourdough being used, given good active cultures. However, Dr
> Woods of Sourdough International claims considerable differences
> in various cultures that he sells. He invites people to make his
> "World Bread" recipe to check that claim out. He must believe it
> to be so or he would not make a claim so eaisily challenged.
>
> Further, while Lb SF may be found in all continuously propagated
> SD cultures, it does not follow that they are all Identical. All
> Humans are Homo Sapiens Sapiens, but you can cetainly find groups
> in different geographic locations that have different
> characteristics.
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles

Well Charles....

For whatever it's worth. I've got three sourdough cultures. One I bought
from King Arthur in 1994, a second I made myself from organic rye flour
using Laurel Robert's Desem method and a third I made from organic hard red
wheat flour. They are all different. Not dramatically so, but different. I
rotate them all, feeding each twice a week. In the summer months they are
kept in a refrigerator, in winter, the basement. The hydration level that I
keep them at and the sponge build temperature are the biggest flavor
variables.

I am sure Ed Wood's cultures are uniquely different. I believe once a
specific culture matures to dominance, it's stability is assured, given
consistent maintenance.

Will

On 8/1/04 9:06 PM, "Charles Perry" > wrote:

>
>
> Fred wrote:
>>
> ...You suggest that a local culture will end up about the same no
>> matter the location. The critters in San Francisco aren't any different
>> than the critters in Mishawka, Indiana. Sourdough is sourdough is
>> sourdough...
>
> Maybe. Maybe not.
>
> I do think that bread making procedures, ingredients, and
> environment have as much to do with the outcome as the strain of
> sourdough being used, given good active cultures. However, Dr
> Woods of Sourdough International claims considerable differences
> in various cultures that he sells. He invites people to make his
> "World Bread" recipe to check that claim out. He must believe it
> to be so or he would not make a claim so eaisily challenged.
>
> Further, while Lb SF may be found in all continuously propagated
> SD cultures, it does not follow that they are all Identical. All
> Humans are Homo Sapiens Sapiens, but you can cetainly find groups
> in different geographic locations that have different
> characteristics.
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles

Well Charles....

For whatever it's worth. I've got three sourdough cultures. One I bought
from King Arthur in 1994, a second I made myself from organic rye flour
using Laurel Robert's Desem method and a third I made from organic hard red
wheat flour. They are all different. Not dramatically so, but different. I
rotate them all, feeding each twice a week. In the summer months they are
kept in a refrigerator, in winter, the basement. The hydration level that I
keep them at and the sponge build temperature are the biggest flavor
variables.

I am sure Ed Wood's cultures are uniquely different. I believe once a
specific culture matures to dominance, it's stability is assured, given
consistent maintenance.

Will

williamwaller wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> ...I've got three sourdough cultures.
> ...They are all different. Not dramatically so, but different. ...The hydration level >that I keep them at and the sponge build temperature are the biggest flavor
> variables.
>
> ... I believe once a
> specific culture matures to dominance, it's stability is assured, given
> consistent maintenance.

Well, Will, you said it better than I did. I believe what you
describe is the normal way of things in the sourdough world. But
I don't dismiss the possibility or probability that there is
something else that occurs from time to time. There are too many
reports of starter drift, some by people that I know to be
careful with maintenence to class them all into the bad
maintenence file.

There is often some kernal of truth behind the urban ledgends and
old spouse's tales. In this case, I believe that the problem
somtimes exists, but I don't necessarily belive the cause offered
by the myths is valid.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

williamwaller wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> ...I've got three sourdough cultures.
> ...They are all different. Not dramatically so, but different. ...The hydration level >that I keep them at and the sponge build temperature are the biggest flavor
> variables.
>
> ... I believe once a
> specific culture matures to dominance, it's stability is assured, given
> consistent maintenance.

Well, Will, you said it better than I did. I believe what you
describe is the normal way of things in the sourdough world. But
I don't dismiss the possibility or probability that there is
something else that occurs from time to time. There are too many
reports of starter drift, some by people that I know to be
careful with maintenence to class them all into the bad
maintenence file.

There is often some kernal of truth behind the urban ledgends and
old spouse's tales. In this case, I believe that the problem
somtimes exists, but I don't necessarily belive the cause offered
by the myths is valid.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

I'm kind of new at this whole thing, but I believe I haven't done as
much study as this since I was in college many years ago. In all of the
reading I have done, your logic seems to be what the "experts" agree
with. Regardless of where your starter comes from, it will over time
regenerate to your local micro organisms and will develop the "local"
flavor. It seems that the logic is that every time you feed your
starter and it is exposed to local air and environment, it will absorb
that local atmosphere which will overpower the foreign organisms. There
is a FAQ that is from this newsgroup put out by Darrell Greenwood that
addresses this:
> II. STABILITY OF SOURDOUGH STARTERS
>
> The stability of the sourdough starter symbiotic relationship
> determines the stability of the starter in whatever location the
> starter is being maintained. In other words, when you move a starter
> to a new area, it will become bombarded by new strains of wild yeast
> and lacto-bacillus that are native to the new area. If the new
> microorganisms are able to live within the symbiotic environment that
> the Russian sourdough starter provides, then the starter will change
> characteristics (flavor, usually) as the local microorganisms
> multiply in the starter. Any and all microorganisms found in your
> starter are open to changes in relative concentration if the local
> microorganisms are 1) different and 2) can survive in your starter.
> It is even possible that the original species present in your starter
> (yeast and the lactobacilli) may slowly die off, being replaced by
> the species in the local area. There is no guarantee that your
> starter will stay the same as the original, but there is also no
> guarantee it will change.

Note that it says it may or may not die off. Having read about the same
subject in other places, it seems that the common belief is that
eventually the original starter will be totally replaced by local
species. The full FAQ by Darrell is located
at:http://www.faqs.org/faqs/food/sourdough/starters/

Daddio

Fred wrote:

> It seems logical to me that if one were to import a starter from another
> area that the starter in time would change character as it absorbed local
> microorganisms. It makes me wonder about the value of using someone else's
> starter from another geographic area.
>
> My own starter - flour and water from scratch is now over 3 months old and
> is making very flavorful bread. In fact I now have to keep my fermentation
> time to under 12 hours or the bread is too sour. I used to ferment 24 hours
> but that doesn't work any more.
>
> I shared some bread with a local sourdough baker who uses a starter that
> started in San Francisco. Our breads tasted very comparable to one another.
> Mine was a little more sour because I had fermented a little longer but the
> taste was very similar. He took some of my starter because he liked the
> taste of my bread better than his. I can't help but think his starter has
> become just like my starter over a period of time. Is there a point in
> importing a starter?
>
>
>

I'm kind of new at this whole thing, but I believe I haven't done as
much study as this since I was in college many years ago. In all of the
reading I have done, your logic seems to be what the "experts" agree
with. Regardless of where your starter comes from, it will over time
regenerate to your local micro organisms and will develop the "local"
flavor. It seems that the logic is that every time you feed your
starter and it is exposed to local air and environment, it will absorb
that local atmosphere which will overpower the foreign organisms. There
is a FAQ that is from this newsgroup put out by Darrell Greenwood that
addresses this:
> II. STABILITY OF SOURDOUGH STARTERS
>
> The stability of the sourdough starter symbiotic relationship
> determines the stability of the starter in whatever location the
> starter is being maintained. In other words, when you move a starter
> to a new area, it will become bombarded by new strains of wild yeast
> and lacto-bacillus that are native to the new area. If the new
> microorganisms are able to live within the symbiotic environment that
> the Russian sourdough starter provides, then the starter will change
> characteristics (flavor, usually) as the local microorganisms
> multiply in the starter. Any and all microorganisms found in your
> starter are open to changes in relative concentration if the local
> microorganisms are 1) different and 2) can survive in your starter.
> It is even possible that the original species present in your starter
> (yeast and the lactobacilli) may slowly die off, being replaced by
> the species in the local area. There is no guarantee that your
> starter will stay the same as the original, but there is also no
> guarantee it will change.

Note that it says it may or may not die off. Having read about the same
subject in other places, it seems that the common belief is that
eventually the original starter will be totally replaced by local
species. The full FAQ by Darrell is located
at:http://www.faqs.org/faqs/food/sourdough/starters/

Daddio

Fred wrote:

> It seems logical to me that if one were to import a starter from another
> area that the starter in time would change character as it absorbed local
> microorganisms. It makes me wonder about the value of using someone else's
> starter from another geographic area.
>
> My own starter - flour and water from scratch is now over 3 months old and
> is making very flavorful bread. In fact I now have to keep my fermentation
> time to under 12 hours or the bread is too sour. I used to ferment 24 hours
> but that doesn't work any more.
>
> I shared some bread with a local sourdough baker who uses a starter that
> started in San Francisco. Our breads tasted very comparable to one another.
> Mine was a little more sour because I had fermented a little longer but the
> taste was very similar. He took some of my starter because he liked the
> taste of my bread better than his. I can't help but think his starter has
> become just like my starter over a period of time. Is there a point in
> importing a starter?
>
>
>

At 02:08 AM 8/19/2004, Daddio wrote:
[...]
> Having read about the same subject in other places, it seems that the
> common belief is that eventually the original starter will be totally
> replaced by local species.


"Belief" is the right word for this - in contrast to "knowing".

Research indicates that eventually the organisms "local" to the sourdough
environment - i. e. moist milled grain products with starches and sugars
will settle in and that's organisms like lactobacillus San Francisco -
fairly independent of the location on this planet.

Quite the opposite what you are claiming.

Thanks for pointing to another source of the sourdough FAQ which appears
monthly (or so?) posted on this newsgroup.

Have fun with sourdough! And yes, you can use ziplocks, but I imagine they
are messy to clean up.

Samartha




remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address