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Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
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Posted to rec.food.sourdough
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Yeast vs Bacterial Culture
I was referred to this newsgroup by someone in alt.support.food-allergies
I'm wondering if anyone knows the difference between yeast & bacterial culture and I'm actually wondering from an allergy point-of-view. I know that medically they are basically opposites (ie you use yeast in the form of an antibiotic) to treat a bacterial infection. I react to yeast (& sourdough) but manage to eat a type of bread that uses bacterial culture for leavening. However, I reacted to sourdough bread long before I was aware of my yeast allergy. So if anyone can help me understand this, I would really appreciate it. Pat |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
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Yeast vs Bacterial Culture
Squampton Gal wrote:
> I was referred to this newsgroup by someone in alt.support.food-allergies > > I'm wondering if anyone knows the difference between yeast & bacterial > culture and I'm actually wondering from an allergy point-of-view. > > Lactic acid bacteria are bacteria occurring in natural sourdoughs. Baker's yeast is commonly known as "yeast". Many bakeries use baker's yeast in breads named "sourdough". Actually, with any commercial sourdough bread commonly bought (in US, I assume) is very likely made using baker's yeast. If you look at Snyders of Hannover's "Sourdough pretzels" - they have no indication whatsoever indicating the use of sourdough on their product but it's named "Sourdough". Yeasts in "natural sourdough" as favored in this group are different from "baker's yeast". So - if you say, you have been allergic to "sourdough" bread you will need to look at the label and see what's in there. > I know that medically they are basically opposites (ie you use yeast in > the form of an antibiotic) to treat a bacterial infection. > > In sourdough, a predominant "bacteria" - a lactic acid bacteria - and a predominant (non-baker's) "yeast" are living in some kind of symbiotic relationship together. > I react to yeast (& sourdough) but manage to eat a type of bread that > uses bacterial culture for leavening. Maybe you are referring to a sourdough bacteria? There is so much intentional confusion created in labeling of products. If you could name the "bacterial culture" bread, where you bought it and what was on the label, it may be possible to clear up what is meant with the "bacterial culture". I strongly suspect it's natural sourdough and those breads are better for humans (as far as I am concerned). For what it's worth... Sam |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
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Yeast vs Bacterial Culture
Yeast are a sub type of the class fungi which are completely different from
bacteria. It is yeast which breaks down starches in the flower to form carbon dioxide which causes the dough to rise. In "real" sour dough bread bacteria in the leavening agent break the starch down into organic acids of which lactic acid and acetic (vinegar) are two. This gives the bread a "sour" or acetic flavor. Commercial bakers often cheat by adding these flavoring agents to the bread dough and bypass the bacterial fermentation process. This "faking it" process is yields the equivalent of cheap box wine and should not be compared to vintage wine of high quality. Both contain alcohol, but the latter has a complexity and subtlety of flavor that could not be duplicated by chemistry alone. So it is with real sour dough bread. No two starters will give you exactly the same flavor. As to your allergies - baking kills both the yeast and bacteria, so that is a moot point. Bacteria produce more than just organic acids - abet in very small quantities - and that may be the source of your allergy, but the wonderful taste of good sour dough bread. "Squampton Gal" > wrote in message news:dAITk.960$o15.293@edtnps83... >I was referred to this newsgroup by someone in alt.support.food-allergies > > I'm wondering if anyone knows the difference between yeast & bacterial > culture and I'm actually wondering from an allergy point-of-view. > > I know that medically they are basically opposites (ie you use yeast in > the form of an antibiotic) to treat a bacterial infection. > > I react to yeast (& sourdough) but manage to eat a type of bread that > uses bacterial culture for leavening. However, I reacted to sourdough > bread long before I was aware of my yeast allergy. > > So if anyone can help me understand this, I would really appreciate it. > > Pat |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
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Yeast vs Bacterial Culture
Sam wrote:
> Squampton Gal wrote: >> I was referred to this newsgroup by someone in alt.support.food-allergies >> >> I'm wondering if anyone knows the difference between yeast & bacterial >> culture and I'm actually wondering from an allergy point-of-view. >> >> > Lactic acid bacteria are bacteria occurring in natural sourdoughs. > Baker's yeast is commonly known as "yeast". > Many bakeries use baker's yeast in breads named "sourdough". Actually, > with any commercial sourdough bread commonly bought (in US, I assume) is > very likely made using baker's yeast. > If you look at Snyders of Hannover's "Sourdough pretzels" - they have no > indication whatsoever indicating the use of sourdough on their product > but it's named "Sourdough". > > Yeasts in "natural sourdough" as favored in this group are different > from "baker's yeast". > > So - if you say, you have been allergic to "sourdough" bread you will > need to look at the label and see what's in there. >> I know that medically they are basically opposites (ie you use yeast >> in the form of an antibiotic) to treat a bacterial infection. >> >> > In sourdough, a predominant "bacteria" - a lactic acid bacteria - and a > predominant (non-baker's) "yeast" are living in some kind of symbiotic > relationship together. >> I react to yeast (& sourdough) but manage to eat a type of bread that >> uses bacterial culture for leavening. > Maybe you are referring to a sourdough bacteria? > There is so much intentional confusion created in labeling of products. > > If you could name the "bacterial culture" bread, where you bought it and > what was on the label, it may be possible to clear up what is meant with > the "bacterial culture". > I strongly suspect it's natural sourdough and those breads are better > for humans (as far as I am concerned). > > For what it's worth... > > Sam > Hmmm ... this is interesting. The bread I use is made by europeanbreads.com and I use both the 100% Barley Bread and the Ukrainian 100% Rye. Both list "bacterial culture" and says they are yeast-free. Neither tastes nor smells like sourdough. The Barley bread lists its ingredients as barley flour, barley bran, bacterial culture, filtered water, sea salt. |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
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Yeast vs Bacterial Culture
Paul Gilbert wrote:
> Yeast are a sub type of the class fungi which are completely different from > bacteria. It is yeast which breaks down starches in the flower to form > carbon dioxide which causes the dough to rise. > > In "real" sour dough bread bacteria in the leavening agent break the starch > down into organic acids of which lactic acid and acetic (vinegar) are two. > This gives the bread a "sour" or acetic flavor. Commercial bakers often > cheat by adding these flavoring agents to the bread dough and bypass the > bacterial fermentation process. > > This "faking it" process is yields the equivalent of cheap box wine and > should not be compared to vintage wine of high quality. Both contain > alcohol, but the latter has a complexity and subtlety of flavor that could > not be duplicated by chemistry alone. So it is with real sour dough bread. > No two starters will give you exactly the same flavor. > > As to your allergies - baking kills both the yeast and bacteria, so that is > a moot point. Bacteria produce more than just organic acids - abet in very > small quantities - and that may be the source of your allergy, but the > wonderful taste of good sour dough bread. > Thanks for explaining how they work. So you're suggesting that I've reacted to sourdough breads because they're fake sourdough? And that true sourdough uses bacterial culture and not yeast? As to baking killing the yeast & bacteria ... are you certain? I know it would stop them from growing further. However, if you think about salmonella, you can't just throw something that's been infected with it in the oven & then eat it. Right? So I don't think they are necessarily gone completely. Or am I completely confused here? |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
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Yeast vs Bacterial Culture
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 07:19:28 GMT, Squampton Gal
> wrote: >Paul Gilbert wrote: >> Yeast are a sub type of the class fungi which are completely different from >> bacteria. It is yeast which breaks down starches in the flower to form >> carbon dioxide which causes the dough to rise. >> >> In "real" sour dough bread bacteria in the leavening agent break the starch >> down into organic acids of which lactic acid and acetic (vinegar) are two. >> This gives the bread a "sour" or acetic flavor. Commercial bakers often >> cheat by adding these flavoring agents to the bread dough and bypass the >> bacterial fermentation process. >> >> This "faking it" process is yields the equivalent of cheap box wine and >> should not be compared to vintage wine of high quality. Both contain >> alcohol, but the latter has a complexity and subtlety of flavor that could >> not be duplicated by chemistry alone. So it is with real sour dough bread. >> No two starters will give you exactly the same flavor. >> >> As to your allergies - baking kills both the yeast and bacteria, so that is >> a moot point. Bacteria produce more than just organic acids - abet in very >> small quantities - and that may be the source of your allergy, but the >> wonderful taste of good sour dough bread. >> > >Thanks for explaining how they work. >So you're suggesting that I've reacted to sourdough breads because >they're fake sourdough? And that true sourdough uses bacterial culture >and not yeast? >As to baking killing the yeast & bacteria ... are you certain? Yes, it's a certainty... They each die off at around 110F, and bread baking is at about 450F and continues until the center of the loaves is at about 200F. > I know >it would stop them from growing further. However, if you think about >salmonella, you can't just throw something that's been infected with it >in the oven & then eat it. Right? No... Think about chicken. Some in distribution is known to have salmonella, but if cooked, is fine to eat. Or consider ground beef. Similar issues. That is why the CDC encourages that it be cooked to a certain internal temperature. > So I don't think they are >necessarily gone completely. Or am I completely confused here? But one final thought... You are probably better off getting your health information from a physician who understands your situation, rather than kind folks here on Usenet. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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Yeast vs Bacterial Culture
Squampton Gal wrote:
> [..] > As to baking killing the yeast & bacteria ... are you certain? They may stop to be alive, but their fermentation products and "dead bodies" are still around. So - if you are allergic to any one of those components, it may affect you. If you have a wheat allergy and eat baked wheat bread - it does not "kill" the agents causing your allergy as well. > I know > it would stop them from growing further. However, if you think about > salmonella, you can't just throw something that's been infected with it > in the oven & then eat it. Right? So I don't think they are > necessarily gone completely. Or am I completely confused here? > You can be sure that after baking - middle of a bread loaf is heated to what? 180/190 F nothing is alive. And yes, you can put something into the oven/pan - chicken, meat, eggs - cook it and eliminate the salmonella, e-coli and what have you. That's why there are recommendations (in US) to cook your - chicken, meat, eggs - properly. and: > The bread I use is made by > europeanbreads.com and I use both the 100% Barley Bread and the > Ukrainian 100% Rye. Both list "bacterial culture" and says they are > yeast-free. Neither tastes nor smells like sourdough. The Barley bread > lists its ingredients as barley flour, barley bran, bacterial culture, > filtered water, sea salt. Those breads look good and what they call "bacterial culture" is a natural sourdough i. e. the ingredient folks here on this ng use to make their breads. This gives rise to the question from where you got your idea of sourdough bread smell. Bread smell is caused by many components and flour used is one main reason for different bread smells despite raised by the same type of means - a sourdough starter. Sam |
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Yeast vs Bacterial Culture
"Kenneth" > wrote in message ... > You are probably better off getting your health information > from a physician who understands your situation, rather than > kind folks here on Usenet. Recommended to check out the physician very thoroughly, and to compare whatever advice he gives with what is available on the Internet. The assumption that any particular physician understands your situation is irrationally exuberant, particularly if his exposure to you is the typical eight or ten minutes, and particularly if he is an allergy practitioner or of that ilk (and certainly no better if he is a she). Another interesting pastime is to get opinions ("diagnoses, prognoses, etc.") from a bunch of "health care providers", to observe that the scatter is not a whole lot different than what is produced by Googling. -- Dicky (allergic to many things, including physicians and inane advice) |
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Yeast vs Bacterial Culture
Dick Adams wrote:
> > Recommended to check out the physician very thoroughly, and > to compare whatever advice he gives with what is available on > the Internet. > > The assumption that any particular physician understands your > situation is irrationally exuberant, particularly if his exposure to > you is the typical eight or ten minutes, and particularly if he is an > allergy practitioner or of that ilk (and certainly no better if he is > a she). > > Maybe Canada is different? That's where the bakery is. S. |
Posted to rec.food.sourdough
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Yeast vs Bacterial Culture
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Posted to rec.food.sourdough
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Yeast vs Bacterial Culture
Squampton Gal wrote: > I react to yeast (& sourdough) but manage to eat a type of bread that > uses bacterial culture for leavening. However, I reacted to sourdough > bread long before I was aware of my yeast allergy. MIght be a good idea to break this investigation down a bit. Why not start with determining your level of tolerance to grain? Make a hot cereal with barley or rye... see how that goes. |
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Yeast vs Bacterial Culture
Mike Avery wrote:
> I've seen several bakeries that promote their bread as yeast free. I > hadn't run into europeanbreads.com before, so they could be different. > > They have a web site and list their ingredients as been quoted here, just names. > In each case I've looked at, the bakers mean, "we didn't add yeast to > the dough." However, in each case, there is yeast in the dough. Maybe it would be good to narrow it down to the ingredients in a product on the ingredient list. There may be something like a minimum amount which doesn't need to be named - something below or at 1 % - who knows? In any case, there may be breads which are without yeast - as ingredient, either as bakers yeast or in a sourdough culture. Those breads may be rised with baking soda or something like that and as a gas-holding component they use some gum - xanthan gum. Those special diet breads like that are available. I've seen it in a health food store but have never tried it and I pity everyone having to eat it. Sam |
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Yeast vs Bacterial Culture
Sam wrote:
> In any case, there may be breads which are without yeast - as > ingredient, either as bakers yeast or in a sourdough culture. > Those breads may be rised with baking soda or something like that and as > a gas-holding component they use some gum - xanthan gum. For that matter, gas-holding is a result of gluten development, completely independent of leaven. I imagine you could build a chemically leavened wheat bread that had well developed gluten. It could then be yeast-free (particularly if the flour were sterilized), but still have a good bread texture. > Those special diet breads like that are available. I've seen it in a > health food store but have never tried it and I pity everyone having to > eat it. Yes, I've tried some, and they're a very poor excuse for "bread". Dave |
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Yeast vs Bacterial Culture
Dave Bell wrote:
> Sam wrote: > > >> Those breads may be rised with baking soda or something like that and as >> a gas-holding component they use some gum - xanthan gum. >> > > For that matter, gas-holding is a result of gluten development, > Yawn.... Yarley, oat, rice have no gluten and xanthan gum steps in for the gas holding feature. Many people are wheat/yeast sensitive and cannot take it that's why those bread are sold. Don't know Yarley? Google it. Sam |
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Yeast vs Bacterial Culture
Sam wrote:
> Dave Bell wrote: >> Sam wrote: >> >> >>> Those breads may be rised with baking soda or something like that and >>> as a gas-holding component they use some gum - xanthan gum. >>> >> >> For that matter, gas-holding is a result of gluten development, > Yawn.... > Yarley, oat, rice have no gluten and xanthan gum steps in for the gas > holding feature. > Many people are wheat/yeast sensitive and cannot take it that's why > those bread are sold. Of course. But many people are (or believe themselves to be) yeast sensitive, but are *not* wheat sensitive. It appears that the bread makers see (only) two markets: Those who can eat just about anything, and "all others". "Yawn", yourself. Apparently I was stating something too obvious for you... |
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Yeast vs Bacterial Culture
Thanks all for your input. Much appreciated.
And for those who expressed concern that I might compromise my health care by letting the advice here guide me a bit too much ... no, I wouldn't. Enjoy your sourdough! Pat |
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Yeast vs Bacterial Culture
> Hmmm ... this is interesting. *The bread I use is made by > europeanbreads.com and I use both the 100% Barley Bread and the > Ukrainian 100% Rye. *Both list "bacterial culture" and says they are > yeast-free. *Neither tastes nor smells like sourdough. *The Barley bread > lists its ingredients as barley flour, barley bran, bacterial culture, > filtered water, sea salt. It is possible (although not probable) that these breads are made with a "salt rising culture" that may not contain yeast. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_rising_bread Sharon |
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Yeast vs Bacterial Culture
In article <dAITk.960$o15.293@edtnps83>, Squampton Gal
> wrote: > I'm wondering if anyone knows the difference between yeast & bacterial > culture and I'm actually wondering from an allergy point-of-view. You may wish to look at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/whatissaltrisingbread.html Cheers, Darrell -- To reply, substitute .net for .invalid in address, i.e., darrell.usenet6 (at) *telus.net |
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