I was referred to this newsgroup by someone in alt.support.food-allergies

I'm wondering if anyone knows the difference between yeast & bacterial
culture and I'm actually wondering from an allergy point-of-view.

I know that medically they are basically opposites (ie you use yeast in
the form of an antibiotic) to treat a bacterial infection.

I react to yeast (& sourdough) but manage to eat a type of bread that
uses bacterial culture for leavening. However, I reacted to sourdough
bread long before I was aware of my yeast allergy.

So if anyone can help me understand this, I would really appreciate it.

Pat

Squampton Gal wrote:
> I was referred to this newsgroup by someone in alt.support.food-allergies
>
> I'm wondering if anyone knows the difference between yeast & bacterial
> culture and I'm actually wondering from an allergy point-of-view.
>
>
Lactic acid bacteria are bacteria occurring in natural sourdoughs.
Baker's yeast is commonly known as "yeast".
Many bakeries use baker's yeast in breads named "sourdough". Actually,
with any commercial sourdough bread commonly bought (in US, I assume) is
very likely made using baker's yeast.
If you look at Snyders of Hannover's "Sourdough pretzels" - they have no
indication whatsoever indicating the use of sourdough on their product
but it's named "Sourdough".

Yeasts in "natural sourdough" as favored in this group are different
from "baker's yeast".

So - if you say, you have been allergic to "sourdough" bread you will
need to look at the label and see what's in there.
> I know that medically they are basically opposites (ie you use yeast in
> the form of an antibiotic) to treat a bacterial infection.
>
>
In sourdough, a predominant "bacteria" - a lactic acid bacteria - and a
predominant (non-baker's) "yeast" are living in some kind of symbiotic
relationship together.
> I react to yeast (& sourdough) but manage to eat a type of bread that
> uses bacterial culture for leavening.
Maybe you are referring to a sourdough bacteria?
There is so much intentional confusion created in labeling of products.

If you could name the "bacterial culture" bread, where you bought it and
what was on the label, it may be possible to clear up what is meant with
the "bacterial culture".
I strongly suspect it's natural sourdough and those breads are better
for humans (as far as I am concerned).

For what it's worth...

Sam

Yeast are a sub type of the class fungi which are completely different from
bacteria. It is yeast which breaks down starches in the flower to form
carbon dioxide which causes the dough to rise.

In "real" sour dough bread bacteria in the leavening agent break the starch
down into organic acids of which lactic acid and acetic (vinegar) are two.
This gives the bread a "sour" or acetic flavor. Commercial bakers often
cheat by adding these flavoring agents to the bread dough and bypass the
bacterial fermentation process.

This "faking it" process is yields the equivalent of cheap box wine and
should not be compared to vintage wine of high quality. Both contain
alcohol, but the latter has a complexity and subtlety of flavor that could
not be duplicated by chemistry alone. So it is with real sour dough bread.
No two starters will give you exactly the same flavor.

As to your allergies - baking kills both the yeast and bacteria, so that is
a moot point. Bacteria produce more than just organic acids - abet in very
small quantities - and that may be the source of your allergy, but the
wonderful taste of good sour dough bread.


"Squampton Gal" > wrote in message
news:dAITk.960$o15.293@edtnps83...
>I was referred to this newsgroup by someone in alt.support.food-allergies
>
> I'm wondering if anyone knows the difference between yeast & bacterial
> culture and I'm actually wondering from an allergy point-of-view.
>
> I know that medically they are basically opposites (ie you use yeast in
> the form of an antibiotic) to treat a bacterial infection.
>
> I react to yeast (& sourdough) but manage to eat a type of bread that
> uses bacterial culture for leavening. However, I reacted to sourdough
> bread long before I was aware of my yeast allergy.
>
> So if anyone can help me understand this, I would really appreciate it.
>
> Pat

Sam wrote:
> Squampton Gal wrote:
>> I was referred to this newsgroup by someone in alt.support.food-allergies
>>
>> I'm wondering if anyone knows the difference between yeast & bacterial
>> culture and I'm actually wondering from an allergy point-of-view.
>>
>>
> Lactic acid bacteria are bacteria occurring in natural sourdoughs.
> Baker's yeast is commonly known as "yeast".
> Many bakeries use baker's yeast in breads named "sourdough". Actually,
> with any commercial sourdough bread commonly bought (in US, I assume) is
> very likely made using baker's yeast.
> If you look at Snyders of Hannover's "Sourdough pretzels" - they have no
> indication whatsoever indicating the use of sourdough on their product
> but it's named "Sourdough".
>
> Yeasts in "natural sourdough" as favored in this group are different
> from "baker's yeast".
>
> So - if you say, you have been allergic to "sourdough" bread you will
> need to look at the label and see what's in there.
>> I know that medically they are basically opposites (ie you use yeast
>> in the form of an antibiotic) to treat a bacterial infection.
>>
>>
> In sourdough, a predominant "bacteria" - a lactic acid bacteria - and a
> predominant (non-baker's) "yeast" are living in some kind of symbiotic
> relationship together.
>> I react to yeast (& sourdough) but manage to eat a type of bread that
>> uses bacterial culture for leavening.
> Maybe you are referring to a sourdough bacteria?
> There is so much intentional confusion created in labeling of products.
>
> If you could name the "bacterial culture" bread, where you bought it and
> what was on the label, it may be possible to clear up what is meant with
> the "bacterial culture".
> I strongly suspect it's natural sourdough and those breads are better
> for humans (as far as I am concerned).
>
> For what it's worth...
>
> Sam
>
Hmmm ... this is interesting. The bread I use is made by
europeanbreads.com and I use both the 100% Barley Bread and the
Ukrainian 100% Rye. Both list "bacterial culture" and says they are
yeast-free. Neither tastes nor smells like sourdough. The Barley bread
lists its ingredients as barley flour, barley bran, bacterial culture,
filtered water, sea salt.

Paul Gilbert wrote:
> Yeast are a sub type of the class fungi which are completely different from
> bacteria. It is yeast which breaks down starches in the flower to form
> carbon dioxide which causes the dough to rise.
>
> In "real" sour dough bread bacteria in the leavening agent break the starch
> down into organic acids of which lactic acid and acetic (vinegar) are two.
> This gives the bread a "sour" or acetic flavor. Commercial bakers often
> cheat by adding these flavoring agents to the bread dough and bypass the
> bacterial fermentation process.
>
> This "faking it" process is yields the equivalent of cheap box wine and
> should not be compared to vintage wine of high quality. Both contain
> alcohol, but the latter has a complexity and subtlety of flavor that could
> not be duplicated by chemistry alone. So it is with real sour dough bread.
> No two starters will give you exactly the same flavor.
>
> As to your allergies - baking kills both the yeast and bacteria, so that is
> a moot point. Bacteria produce more than just organic acids - abet in very
> small quantities - and that may be the source of your allergy, but the
> wonderful taste of good sour dough bread.
>

Thanks for explaining how they work.
So you're suggesting that I've reacted to sourdough breads because
they're fake sourdough? And that true sourdough uses bacterial culture
and not yeast?
As to baking killing the yeast & bacteria ... are you certain? I know
it would stop them from growing further. However, if you think about
salmonella, you can't just throw something that's been infected with it
in the oven & then eat it. Right? So I don't think they are
necessarily gone completely. Or am I completely confused here?

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 07:19:28 GMT, Squampton Gal
> wrote:

>Paul Gilbert wrote:
>> Yeast are a sub type of the class fungi which are completely different from
>> bacteria. It is yeast which breaks down starches in the flower to form
>> carbon dioxide which causes the dough to rise.
>>
>> In "real" sour dough bread bacteria in the leavening agent break the starch
>> down into organic acids of which lactic acid and acetic (vinegar) are two.
>> This gives the bread a "sour" or acetic flavor. Commercial bakers often
>> cheat by adding these flavoring agents to the bread dough and bypass the
>> bacterial fermentation process.
>>
>> This "faking it" process is yields the equivalent of cheap box wine and
>> should not be compared to vintage wine of high quality. Both contain
>> alcohol, but the latter has a complexity and subtlety of flavor that could
>> not be duplicated by chemistry alone. So it is with real sour dough bread.
>> No two starters will give you exactly the same flavor.
>>
>> As to your allergies - baking kills both the yeast and bacteria, so that is
>> a moot point. Bacteria produce more than just organic acids - abet in very
>> small quantities - and that may be the source of your allergy, but the
>> wonderful taste of good sour dough bread.
>>
>
>Thanks for explaining how they work.
>So you're suggesting that I've reacted to sourdough breads because
>they're fake sourdough? And that true sourdough uses bacterial culture
>and not yeast?
>As to baking killing the yeast & bacteria ... are you certain?

Yes, it's a certainty... They each die off at around 110F,
and bread baking is at about 450F and continues until the
center of the loaves is at about 200F.

> I know
>it would stop them from growing further. However, if you think about
>salmonella, you can't just throw something that's been infected with it
>in the oven & then eat it. Right?

No...

Think about chicken. Some in distribution is known to have
salmonella, but if cooked, is fine to eat.

Or consider ground beef. Similar issues. That is why the CDC
encourages that it be cooked to a certain internal
temperature.

> So I don't think they are
>necessarily gone completely. Or am I completely confused here?

But one final thought...

You are probably better off getting your health information
from a physician who understands your situation, rather than
kind folks here on Usenet.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Squampton Gal wrote:
> [..]
> As to baking killing the yeast & bacteria ... are you certain?
They may stop to be alive, but their fermentation products and "dead
bodies" are still around.
So - if you are allergic to any one of those components, it may affect you.

If you have a wheat allergy and eat baked wheat bread - it does not
"kill" the agents causing your allergy as well.
> I know
> it would stop them from growing further. However, if you think about
> salmonella, you can't just throw something that's been infected with it
> in the oven & then eat it. Right? So I don't think they are
> necessarily gone completely. Or am I completely confused here?
>
You can be sure that after baking - middle of a bread loaf is heated to
what? 180/190 F nothing is alive.
And yes, you can put something into the oven/pan - chicken, meat, eggs -
cook it and eliminate the salmonella, e-coli and what have you.
That's why there are recommendations (in US) to cook your - chicken,
meat, eggs - properly.


and:
> The bread I use is made by
> europeanbreads.com and I use both the 100% Barley Bread and the
> Ukrainian 100% Rye. Both list "bacterial culture" and says they are
> yeast-free. Neither tastes nor smells like sourdough. The Barley bread
> lists its ingredients as barley flour, barley bran, bacterial culture,
> filtered water, sea salt.

Those breads look good and what they call "bacterial culture" is a
natural sourdough i. e. the ingredient folks here on this ng use to make
their breads.

This gives rise to the question from where you got your idea of
sourdough bread smell. Bread smell is caused by many components and
flour used is one main reason for different bread smells despite raised
by the same type of means - a sourdough starter.

Sam

"Kenneth" > wrote in message ...

> You are probably better off getting your health information
> from a physician who understands your situation, rather than
> kind folks here on Usenet.

Recommended to check out the physician very thoroughly, and
to compare whatever advice he gives with what is available on
the Internet.

The assumption that any particular physician understands your
situation is irrationally exuberant, particularly if his exposure to
you is the typical eight or ten minutes, and particularly if he is an
allergy practitioner or of that ilk (and certainly no better if he is
a she).

Another interesting pastime is to get opinions ("diagnoses,
prognoses, etc.") from a bunch of "health care providers", to
observe that the scatter is not a whole lot different than what is
produced by Googling.

--
Dicky
(allergic to many things, including physicians and inane advice)

Dick Adams wrote:
>
> Recommended to check out the physician very thoroughly, and
> to compare whatever advice he gives with what is available on
> the Internet.
>
> The assumption that any particular physician understands your
> situation is irrationally exuberant, particularly if his exposure to
> you is the typical eight or ten minutes, and particularly if he is an
> allergy practitioner or of that ilk (and certainly no better if he is
> a she).
>
>
Maybe Canada is different? That's where the bakery is.

S.

In article <RIPTk.1092$o15.754@edtnps83>,
says...

> Hmmm ... this is interesting. The bread I use is made by
> europeanbreads.com and I use both the 100% Barley Bread and the
> Ukrainian 100% Rye. Both list "bacterial culture" and says they are
> yeast-free. Neither tastes nor smells like sourdough. The Barley bread
> lists its ingredients as barley flour, barley bran, bacterial culture,
> filtered water, sea salt.

I've seen several bakeries that promote their bread as yeast free. I
hadn't run into europeanbreads.com before, so they could be different.

In each case I've looked at, the bakers mean, "we didn't add yeast to
the dough." However, in each case, there is yeast in the dough. Yeast
is one of the most common micro-organisms on the planet. If you want to
be yeast free, you have to go to great lengths to sterilize your
ingredients, your utensils, and your staff. Yes, there is yeast on your
skin. In all those bakeries, their processes favored natural yeasts. I
feel their claims of "yeast free" are misleading. It would be like
someone selling peach pits and claiming they are cyanide free because
they didn't add cynaide to them. (Peach pits have naturally occurring
cyanide in them.)

Biologists have sold pure bacterial cultures to sourdough researchers
who found you can raise bread with just the bacteria. Some researchers
feel that as much as 40% of the carbon dioxide production is from the
bacteria. So, you could raise bread with just a bacteria culture.
However, the culture becomes contaminated with yeast in very short
order. You'd need fresh culture very often.

While I agree it is hard to expect a doctor who sees you for 8 to 15
minutes to be familiar with your situation and all the ingredients in
all the foods you might eat, I still think you have a better chance of
getting good advice from a health care professional who knows you -
however perfunctorilly - than from a random group of people on the
Internet who have no stake in your health or well being and even less
understanding of your situation.

Good luck,
Mike

Squampton Gal wrote:

> I react to yeast (& sourdough) but manage to eat a type of bread that
> uses bacterial culture for leavening. However, I reacted to sourdough
> bread long before I was aware of my yeast allergy.

MIght be a good idea to break this investigation down a bit. Why not
start with determining your level of tolerance to grain? Make a hot
cereal with barley or rye... see how that goes.

Mike Avery wrote:
> I've seen several bakeries that promote their bread as yeast free. I
> hadn't run into europeanbreads.com before, so they could be different.
>
>
They have a web site and list their ingredients as been quoted here,
just names.
> In each case I've looked at, the bakers mean, "we didn't add yeast to
> the dough." However, in each case, there is yeast in the dough.
Maybe it would be good to narrow it down to the ingredients in a product
on the ingredient list.
There may be something like a minimum amount which doesn't need to be
named - something below or at 1 % - who knows?

In any case, there may be breads which are without yeast - as
ingredient, either as bakers yeast or in a sourdough culture.
Those breads may be rised with baking soda or something like that and as
a gas-holding component they use some gum - xanthan gum.

Those special diet breads like that are available. I've seen it in a
health food store but have never tried it and I pity everyone having to
eat it.

Sam

Sam wrote:

> In any case, there may be breads which are without yeast - as
> ingredient, either as bakers yeast or in a sourdough culture.
> Those breads may be rised with baking soda or something like that and as
> a gas-holding component they use some gum - xanthan gum.

For that matter, gas-holding is a result of gluten development,
completely independent of leaven. I imagine you could build a chemically
leavened wheat bread that had well developed gluten. It could then be
yeast-free (particularly if the flour were sterilized), but still have a
good bread texture.

> Those special diet breads like that are available. I've seen it in a
> health food store but have never tried it and I pity everyone having to
> eat it.

Yes, I've tried some, and they're a very poor excuse for "bread".

Dave

Dave Bell wrote:
> Sam wrote:
>
>
>> Those breads may be rised with baking soda or something like that and as
>> a gas-holding component they use some gum - xanthan gum.
>>
>
> For that matter, gas-holding is a result of gluten development,
>
Yawn....
Yarley, oat, rice have no gluten and xanthan gum steps in for the gas
holding feature.
Many people are wheat/yeast sensitive and cannot take it that's why
those bread are sold.

Don't know Yarley? Google it.

Sam

Sam wrote:
> Dave Bell wrote:
>> Sam wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Those breads may be rised with baking soda or something like that and
>>> as a gas-holding component they use some gum - xanthan gum.
>>>
>>
>> For that matter, gas-holding is a result of gluten development,
> Yawn....
> Yarley, oat, rice have no gluten and xanthan gum steps in for the gas
> holding feature.
> Many people are wheat/yeast sensitive and cannot take it that's why
> those bread are sold.

Of course. But many people are (or believe themselves to be) yeast
sensitive, but are *not* wheat sensitive. It appears that the bread
makers see (only) two markets: Those who can eat just about anything,
and "all others".

"Yawn", yourself.
Apparently I was stating something too obvious for you...

Dave Bell wrote:
> Of course. But many people are (or believe themselves to be) yeast
> sensitive, but are *not* wheat sensitive. It appears that the bread
> makers see (only) two markets: Those who can eat just about anything,
> and "all others".
>
> "Yawn", yourself.
> Apparently I was stating something too obvious for you...
>
First post on this group about gluten on Dec 2, 1992:

Thanks all for your input. Much appreciated.
And for those who expressed concern that I might compromise my health
care by letting the advice here guide me a bit too much ... no, I wouldn't.

Enjoy your sourdough!
Pat

> Hmmm ... this is interesting. *The bread I use is made by
> europeanbreads.com and I use both the 100% Barley Bread and the
> Ukrainian 100% Rye. *Both list "bacterial culture" and says they are
> yeast-free. *Neither tastes nor smells like sourdough. *The Barley bread
> lists its ingredients as barley flour, barley bran, bacterial culture,
> filtered water, sea salt.

It is possible (although not probable) that these breads are made with
a "salt rising culture" that may not contain yeast.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_rising_bread

Sharon

In article <dAITk.960$o15.293@edtnps83>, Squampton Gal
> wrote:

> I'm wondering if anyone knows the difference between yeast & bacterial
> culture and I'm actually wondering from an allergy point-of-view.

You may wish to look at

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/whatissaltrisingbread.html

Cheers,

Darrell

--
To reply, substitute .net for .invalid in address, i.e., darrell.usenet6 (at)
*telus.net