Kenneth's Poilane
 

Well, I made it and was pleased. Thanks, Kenneth. Photos and a write-up are
he http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/449...ne-style-miche

--
Jeff

Kenneth's Poilane
 

"Jeff Miller" > wrote in message news:mailman.13.1192248784.79045.rec.food.sourdoug ...
> Well, I made it and was pleased. Thanks, Kenneth. Photos and a write-up are
> he http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/449...ne-style-miche

That looks really good, Jeff. But I guess it would be folly to try it with my
scale which weighs to a precision of only 1/4 ounce.

Kenneth's Poilane
 

I wonder why everybody calls their bread "Poilane" or "Poilane style"
while it has nothing to do with Poilane's bread.
Poilane bread= flour t80, sea salt, water, ferment from last dough.

Kenneth's Poilane
 

"viince" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I wonder why everybody calls their bread "Poilane" or "Poilane style"
> while it has nothing to do with Poilane's bread.
> Poilane bread= flour t80, sea salt, water, ferment from last dough.
>
Then please give us the real recipe and method!
Graham

Kenneth's Poilane
 

That looks really good, Jeff. But I guess it would be folly to try it with
my
scale which weighs to a precision of only 1/4 ounce.

I can loan you one of mine.

Kenneth's Poilane
 

On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 11:37:12 -0400, "Jeff Miller"
> wrote:

>Actually, Kenneth, I'm curious as to the origin of this recipe. Did you
>create it yourself or get it from some other source?
>
>And, though I used an older version of your recipe in which you add all the
>water on the first day (my machine ate all my email so I was relying on a
>Google Groups search -- that was what came up), I see now that I've finally
>found the most recent post that you added half the water on Day one and the
>other half on Day two. Does it make much of a difference?

Hi Jeff,

I had tried for many years (mostly following variants of the
frequently published 100% whole wheat recipes) but none of
my results came close to the real thing. Then, I gave up,
until we had another trip to France.

That cycle continued until I read an interview with M.
Poilne in which he mentioned, in passing, that he felt
partially responsible for the increase in spelt production
in France.

As soon as I read that, I moved in the direction you have
seen, and immediately, my results were quite similar to the
bread I had often had in Paris. With some tweaking, I got to
the point that I was very happy with the result.

The only reason I started to split the water was that I had
concerns about the proper fermentation of the very soupy
whole wheat early stage. It was originally so wet that it
separated, and I wanted to try it more "mush"-like.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth's Poilane
 

Jeff Miller wrote:
> Well, I made it and was pleased. Thanks, Kenneth. Photos and a write-up
> are he
> http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/449...ne-style-miche

Looks nice, but is that red cast an artifact of the camera? Poilane
doesn't have that.

B/

Kenneth's Poilane
 

The loaf was a reddish-gold color. The photo is more red than the loaf was,
most likely because of the flash, but there was definitely red in the crust.
--
Jeff

On 10/13/07, Brian Mailman > wrote:
>
> Jeff Miller wrote:
> > Well, I made it and was pleased. Thanks, Kenneth. Photos and a write-up
> > are he
> > http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/449...ne-style-miche
>
> Looks nice, but is that red cast an artifact of the camera? Poilane
> doesn't have that.
>
> B/
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough
>
> To unsubscribe send a mail to nd then reply to the confirmation request.
>

Kenneth's Poilane
 

Brian Mailman wrote:
> Jeff Miller wrote:
>> Well, I made it and was pleased. Thanks, Kenneth. Photos and a
>> write-up are he
>> http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/449...ne-style-miche
>
> Looks nice, but is that red cast an artifact of the camera? Poilane
> doesn't have that.
>
> B/
Red cast?

Norm

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Kenneth's Poilane
 

Jeff Miller wrote:
> The loaf was a reddish-gold color. The photo is more red than the loaf
> was, most likely because of the flash, but there was definitely red in
> the crust.

OK.

Just for reference, Poilane is more gray-brown, and the crumb is
opalescent in a way.

It's also not so fine-grained. It's not "open," mind, you with holes,
but the texture seems a bit coarser than the picture.

B/

Kenneth's Poilane
 

> Then please give us the real recipe and method!
> Graham

This is basically how they make their bread at Poilane:

Take old dough(from previous mix), make a preferment with it adding
flour and water to it (100 flour, 40 old dough, about 60water) making
it a tight dough.
Leave it for about an hour to proove.
Then mix the main dough, using:
100 flour T80 (a fine wholemeal. If no T80 available, I guess you can
just sieve wholemeal flour)
2 coarse sea salt
30 preferment

Enough water to make a nice dough, not too tight.

Mix for 7mn first speed, put in a wooden box for prooving, about and
hour and half. Scale your dough 2.2Kg, round up, put in a banneton
with lots of flour. proove these for about an hour, or however long it
will take. 15 mn before they are ready to proove, put lots of wood on
your oven, leave the flame warm up the oven for 10mn, then put water
for steam and start loading your oven, slashing the top with a nice P.
Bake for about an hour. When taking out the bottom of bread should be
almost black.
Of course that's if you have a wood oven like them :p

They don't actually weight the flour like I said there, instead they
weigh the water and have the matching amounts of preferement and salt
to the water weigh, after they just add the flour until the dough is
good. But I recalculated it for the flour weigh because I think it's
easier.

This is what I learnt when I went for a trial at Poilane's
I know it is pretty disapointing, all these dreams of long
fermentation, and technology of baking, there's nothing like that
there. I'm not saying their bread is not good, it's really good bread,
but it's far from being the best. That's why it makes me laugh when I
see people exchanging Poilane recipes and Poilane starters on the
internet ;)

Keep up the good work anyway!

Kenneth's Poilane
 

On Oct 13, 5:13 am, "Jeff Miller" > wrote:
> Well, I made it and was pleased. Thanks, Kenneth. Photos and a write-up are
> hehttp://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/449...ne-style-miche
>
> --
> Jeff

You bread looks very good though! nice crust. looks real yummy!, but
it doesn't really look like Poilane's bread. Yours looks a lot more
Wholemeal! You could try sieving your wholemeal flour to have a less
coarse texture to the bread.

Kenneth's Poilane
 

On Oct 15, 5:53 am, viince > wrote:
> > Then please give us the real recipe and method!
> > Graham
>
> This is basically how they make their bread at Poilane:
>
> Take old dough(from previous mix), make a preferment with it adding
> flour and water to it (100 flour, 40 old dough, about 60water) making
> it a tight dough.
> Leave it for about an hour to proove.
> Then mix the main dough, using:
> 100 flour T80 (a fine wholemeal. If no T80 available, I guess you can
> just sieve wholemeal flour)
> 2 coarse sea salt
> 30 preferment
>
> Enough water to make a nice dough, not too tight.
>
> Mix for 7mn first speed, put in a wooden box for prooving, about and
> hour and half. Scale your dough 2.2Kg, round up, put in a banneton
> with lots of flour. proove these for about an hour, or however long it
> will take. 15 mn before they are ready to proove, put lots of wood on
> your oven, leave the flame warm up the oven for 10mn, then put water
> for steam and start loading your oven, slashing the top with a nice P.
> Bake for about an hour. When taking out the bottom of bread should be
> almost black.
> Of course that's if you have a wood oven like them :p
>
> They don't actually weight the flour like I said there, instead they
> weigh the water and have the matching amounts of preferement and salt
> to the water weigh, after they just add the flour until the dough is
> good. But I recalculated it for the flour weigh because I think it's
> easier.
>
> This is what I learnt when I went for a trial at Poilane's
> I know it is pretty disapointing, all these dreams of long
> fermentation, and technology of baking, there's nothing like that
> there. I'm not saying their bread is not good, it's really good bread,
> but it's far from being the best. That's why it makes me laugh when I
> see people exchanging Poilane recipes and Poilane starters on the
> internet ;)
>
> Keep up the good work anyway!

Very interesting. Reminds me of Hamelman's book. He does a lot with
pre-ferment stages. And it suggests that the starter is never
refrigerated... :-)

What we do not know is whether or not the flour supplied to the
Poilane bakers is already blended. I assume Poilane has custom flour
so I would not discount the spelt component.

Kenneth's Poilane
 

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 06:09:27 -0700, Will
> wrote:

>What we do not know is whether or not the flour supplied to the
>Poilane bakers is already blended. I assume Poilane has custom flour
>so I would not discount the spelt component.

Howdy,

The Poilne website describes their use of spelt...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth's Poilane
 

"viince" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>> Then please give us the real recipe and method!
>> Graham
>
> This is basically how they make their bread at Poilane:
>
> Take old dough(from previous mix), make a preferment with it adding
> flour and water to it (100 flour, 40 old dough, about 60water) making
> it a tight dough.
> Leave it for about an hour to proove.
> Then mix the main dough, using:
> 100 flour T80 (a fine wholemeal. If no T80 available, I guess you can
> just sieve wholemeal flour)
> 2 coarse sea salt
> 30 preferment
>
> Enough water to make a nice dough, not too tight.
>
> Mix for 7mn first speed, put in a wooden box for prooving, about and
> hour and half. Scale your dough 2.2Kg, round up, put in a banneton
> with lots of flour. proove these for about an hour, or however long it
> will take. 15 mn before they are ready to proove, put lots of wood on
> your oven, leave the flame warm up the oven for 10mn, then put water
> for steam and start loading your oven, slashing the top with a nice P.
> Bake for about an hour. When taking out the bottom of bread should be
> almost black.
> Of course that's if you have a wood oven like them :p
>
> They don't actually weight the flour like I said there, instead they
> weigh the water and have the matching amounts of preferement and salt
> to the water weigh, after they just add the flour until the dough is
> good. But I recalculated it for the flour weigh because I think it's
> easier.
>
> This is what I learnt when I went for a trial at Poilane's
> I know it is pretty disapointing, all these dreams of long
> fermentation, and technology of baking, there's nothing like that
> there. I'm not saying their bread is not good, it's really good bread,
> but it's far from being the best. That's why it makes me laugh when I
> see people exchanging Poilane recipes and Poilane starters on the
> internet ;)
>
> Keep up the good work anyway!
>

Many thanks! I've saved it to try during one of those depressing, snowed in
days this winter!
Graham

Kenneth's Poilane
 

On Oct 15, 8:18 am, Kenneth > wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 06:09:27 -0700, Will
>
> > wrote:
> >What we do not know is whether or not the flour supplied to the
> >Poilane bakers is already blended. I assume Poilane has custom flour
> >so I would not discount the spelt component.
>
> Howdy,
>
> The Poilne website describes their use of spelt...
>
> All the best,
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Indeed it does. Specifically:

"Together with this, the Poilne Company has encouraged growing spelt.
This type of wheat has very good qualities for making bread, but it
had almost completely disappeared since the beginning of the 19th
century. Its grains are covered with straw husks that entail the use
of a sheller prior to milling. Today, Poilne flour contains about 30%
of spelt."

If you look at the bread ingredients what you see is T80 wheat flour,
water and salt... no mention of spelt. But I suppose it's consistent
if you consider spelt a variety of wheat.

Kenneth's Poilane
 

> If you look at the bread ingredients what you see is T80 wheat flour,
> water and salt... no mention of spelt. But I suppose it's consistent
> if you consider spelt a variety of wheat.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yep they get their own flour from the miller (lots of bakeries get
that in France) and it's not impossible that they have a blend of
different varieties, including spelt.
But T80 is just a wholemeal with not so much bran in it. I'm sure
anybody can make T80 style flour by just sieving wholemeal flour.
After you have to find something to do with the left over bran, give
it to the wife for her healthy breakfast maybe :p
I read that bakeries long time ago were sieving their flour themselves
to get to get a finer, whiter flour. It's only recently that millers
started doing this. So I don't see why home bakers can't do it
themselves ;)

I really like T80 flour as it contains most of the goodness of the
grain, but is not too hard to digest.

Kenneth's Poilane
 

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:53:05 -0000, viince
> wrote:

>I know it is pretty disapointing, all these dreams of long
>fermentation, and technology of baking, there's nothing like that
>there. I'm not saying their bread is not good, it's really good bread,
>but it's far from being the best. That's why it makes me laugh when I
>see people exchanging Poilane recipes and Poilane starters on the
>internet ;)

Howdy,

It is nice to hear that it makes you laugh, but your
comments above include the very reason for the behavior that
amuses you.

It is certainly true that commercial bakers often have
access to tools and techniques that home bakers lack.

But (particularly with regard to technique) home bakers
often have resources that commercial bakers do not, or at
least, would prefer not, to use. Very long fermentation is
probably the most obvious of those. If commercial bakers do
it, their costs soar. For home bakers, there is no such
cost.

As you have said, the Poilne loaf is "far from being the
best."

That would seem to leave some room for improvement. How
better to do that than by experimenting with different
approaches?

And regarding the starter:

Though they no longer do it, years ago, folks at the Poilne
bakery were happy to offer home-baker customers a pinch of
their levain.

It certainly makes sense to me that it would be shared with
others interested in having it.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth's Poilane
 

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 09:10:41 -0400, "Jeff Miller"
> wrote:

>
>Kenneth wrote:
>
>And regarding the starter:
>
>> Though they no longer do it, years ago, folks at the
>> Poilne bakery were happy to offer home-baker
>> customers a pinch of their levain.
>
>>It certainly makes sense to me that it would be shared
>>with others interested in having it.
>
>Just curious, how does the Poilane starter differ from other starters you've
>worked with, if it differs at all?

Hi Jeff,

With regret, I can't post the taste <g>, but that is the
answer.

Also, I have stored the Poilne and ACME side-by-side in my
refrigerator for many years.

Often I have thought, "After all this time, surely they have
become the same."

But then, I do a very simple test:

Again, side-by-side I mix up a few grams of each with equal
amounts of flour and water. Then, I put the mixtures in
identical graduates to watch 'em rise.

After a few hours, the ACME is about twice as "tall."

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth's Poilane
 

> Take old dough(from previous mix), make a preferment with it adding
> flour and water to it (100 flour, 40 old dough, about 60water) making
> it a tight dough.
> Leave it for about an hour to proove.
> Then mix the main dough, using:
> 100 flour T80 (a fine wholemeal. If no T80 available, I guess you can
> just sieve wholemeal flour)
> 2 coarse sea salt
> 30 preferment

Are the numbers grams or baker's percentages?

Kenneth's Poilane
 

Jonathan Kandell wrote:
>> Take old dough(from previous mix), make a preferment with it adding
>> flour and water to it (100 flour, 40 old dough, about 60water) making
>> it a tight dough.
>> Leave it for about an hour to proove.
>> Then mix the main dough, using:
>> 100 flour T80 (a fine wholemeal. If no T80 available, I guess you can
>> just sieve wholemeal flour)
>> 2 coarse sea salt
>> 30 preferment
>>
>
> Are the numbers grams or baker's percentages?
>
Hmmm..given that the numbers above total 332, that would be a rather
small loaf. Considering that the Poilane miche is supposed to be two
kilograms, I'd have to guess the numbers would be bakers percentages.
It is also interesting that there is neither yeast nor water in the
final dough. Old dough is usually a yeasted process, and the yeast has
to come from somewhere! Also, there isn't enough water in the
pre-ferment to adequately hydrate the dough.

Let's assume we are shooting for 80% hydration, which is reasonable for
a whole wheat bread. (also, if you grind your own wheat with a
micronizer mill, sifting probably won't help - the particles are too
uniform to sift well.) Instead of sifting the whole wheat flour, one
could also dilute it with some all-purpose or bread flour. All-purpose
is probably closer to a classic French flour, so mixing about 80% whole
wheat and 20% all-purpose would be close enough. Since some of the
water will come from the preferment, I'll drop the amount of water to
about 76%. It's close enough for bread making.

Finally, the yeast. How much to use? I'd guess is about .3% instant
yeast, again, as a bakers percentage.

To make a two kilogram loaf with that recipe, try:

Preferment:
144 grams Flour
58 grams Old Dough
86 grams Water

Final dough:
960 grams Flour
19 grams Salt
730 grams Water
288 grams Preferment
3 grams Instant Yeast

If anyone tries it, I'd appreciate hearing how it turned out. I'm not
sure when I'll be able to try it.

A few more interesting observations..... Bernard Clayton has a recipe
that was approved by Pierre Poilane, the father of Lionel, that was a
straight dough - no sourdough, no old dough, no poolish. Also no spelt,
and little whole wheat. If you go to their web site, they tell you they
use 30% spelt (it isn't clear if that is a bakers percentage or a more
conventional percentage) and a sourdough process. It seems that there
are a number of hints about the Poilane formula, and that they are all
different.

Mike


--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
Spread it on
And lightly too
Shave it off
That's all
You're through
Burma-Shave

Kenneth's Poilane
 

On Oct 25, 11:44 pm, Jonathan Kandell > wrote:
> > Take old dough(from previous mix), make a preferment with it adding
> > flour and water to it (100 flour, 40 old dough, about 60water) making
> > it a tight dough.
> > Leave it for about an hour to proove.
> > Then mix the main dough, using:
> > 100 flour T80 (a fine wholemeal. If no T80 available, I guess you can
> > just sieve wholemeal flour)
> > 2 coarse sea salt
> > 30 preferment
>
> Are the numbers grams or baker's percentages?

Yes obviously.
100 flour
65 water
2 salt
30 preferment
The water content depends on your dough, it could be 64 as it could be
68 at the end. This is something you need to adjust while you're
working your dough.

For poilane size loaf:

Preferment
170 flour
68 Old dough
102 water

Dough
1120 flour
730 water
22 salt
335 preferment

That's for 2.2Kg of dough, it should weigh about 1.9kg after baking.

Kenneth's Poilane
 

> Hmmm..given that the numbers above total 332, that would be a rather
> small loaf. Considering that the Poilane miche is supposed to be two
> kilograms, I'd have to guess the numbers would be bakers percentages.
> It is also interesting that there is neither yeast nor water in the
> final dough. Old dough is usually a yeasted process, and the yeast has
> to come from somewhere!

Well the yeast comes from the old dough. and I'm talking sourdough
yeast. That's if you're making your "Poilane" loaf all the time. I was
describing how they make it in Poilane bakery. If you start it from
the begining you just use your starter instead of old dough to mix the
preferment. The point is that in Poilane they don't use a separate
starter, they use a piece of dough from the previous batch, meaning
there is salt on it.

> Also, there isn't enough water in the
> pre-ferment to adequately hydrate the dough.
>

I said just after: Enough water to make a nice dough, not too tight.
That's probably about 65%. most artisan bakeries dont weigh the water
AND the flour, they just weigh one and adjust the other. In Poilane
they weigh the water in buckets and they add enough flour. In other
bakeries they weigh the flour which is allready in bags, so that makes
it easier.

> Let's assume we are shooting for 80% hydration, which is reasonable for
> a whole wheat bread.

If you put 80% water for this bread you're gonna end up with a nice
soup, good luck.
Maybe your whole wheat absorbs that much water, but "Poilane" bread is
not whole wheat. It's made with T80 flour. And there's a big
difference.


> Finally, the yeast. How much to use? I'd guess is about .3% instant
> yeast, again, as a bakers percentage.
>
Then that's not sourdough bread anymore.
If you have a preferment I don't see why you need to add yeast. unless
you're on a hurry and you want to bang your loaf in an hour.

> To make a two kilogram loaf with that recipe, try:
>
> Preferment:
> 144 grams Flour
> 58 grams Old Dough
> 86 grams Water
>
> Final dough:
> 960 grams Flour
> 19 grams Salt
> 730 grams Water
> 288 grams Preferment
> 3 grams Instant Yeast
>

That makes exactly 2000g, they scale their bread at 2.2KG
Again I don't see the point for the yeast that's just pointless. or at
least if I were to put that much yeast I would put less preferment
then.

> If anyone tries it, I'd appreciate hearing how it turned out. I'm not
> sure when I'll be able to try it.
>

I won't try this sorry. I'm too busy making bread everyday.
:D

> A few more interesting observations..... Bernard Clayton has a recipe
> that was approved by Pierre Poilane, the father of Lionel, that was a
> straight dough - no sourdough, no old dough, no poolish. Also no spelt,
> and little whole wheat.

Well I guess if Meister Poilane approves a recipe, that must be real
good.
I wish he would approve my recipes but now he's dead, who else should
I ask for approval??

> If you go to their web site, they tell you they
> use 30% spelt (it isn't clear if that is a bakers percentage or a more
> conventional percentage) and a sourdough process. It seems that there
> are a number of hints about the Poilane formula, and that they are all
> different.
>

I just said what was the "Poilane formula" in the previous posts and
you changed it to make your own. That's probably the problem with you
guys you just want to make everything more complicated than it really
is. Bread is bread, it's just flour water and salt. There is no big
secret, anybody can do it. If I had a 6yr old kid at hand, I sure
could teach him how to make a great loaf of bread :p


I'm not just trying to be nasty but sometimes you guys are just
pulling your hair too much. No offence for Poilane either, he's a
great baker and I read Lionel Poilane's book which is really good. But
you don't need anybody's approval to make good bread, there are loads
of people making much better bread than Poilane.

Cheers!

Kenneth's Poilane
 

viince wrote:
>> Hmmm..given that the numbers above total 332, that would be a rather
>> small loaf. Considering that the Poilane miche is supposed to be two
>> kilograms, I'd have to guess the numbers would be bakers percentages.
>> It is also interesting that there is neither yeast nor water in the
>> final dough. Old dough is usually a yeasted process, and the yeast has
>> to come from somewhere!
>>
>
> Well the yeast comes from the old dough. and I'm talking sourdough
> yeast. That's if you're making your "Poilane" loaf all the time. I was
> describing how they make it in Poilane bakery. If you start it from
> the begining you just use your starter instead of old dough to mix the
> preferment. The point is that in Poilane they don't use a separate
> starter, they use a piece of dough from the previous batch, meaning
> there is salt on it.
>
Your instructions were not terribly well written. When I first read
them, I ignored them because I didn't think it was a sourdough recipe.
More on that in paragraph. The fact that there was only one response to
the formula kinda substantiates by belief.... especially since that
response was, "is this grams or bakers percentage?" No one seems to
have been inspired to try the formula, judging by the lack of "Thanks
for the great recipe" posts.


I have been a hobbyist baker for over 30 years, and a professional for
over 5. I've never seen the term "old dough" applied to sourdough. Old
dough has always been a yeasted process. And more yeast is added to the
final dough. Which is why I assumed the recipe wasn't sourdough and I
made the changes I did.

You're right, I didn't accommodate loss in baking, the loaf should have
been larger. Also, the batch of dough should have been even larger to
accommodate saving more dough for the next batch. My bad.

Most of the time when people in this newsgroup are making things too
hard for themselves, it is because they are trying to figure out hastily
written instructions.

I've been in a number of artisan bakeries, and have been trained by some
excellent bakers. In all cases I am familiar with, they weigh ALL
ingredients, liquid and solid. And then they adjust the dough as
needed. Most bakers I know prefer to adjust the water as that doesn't
change the rest of the bakers percentages.

In the end, there are a lot of ways to make good bread,
Mike

Kenneth's Poilane
 

In article . com>,
viince > wrote:

That's probably the problem with you
> guys you just want to make everything more complicated than it really
> is. Bread is bread, it's just flour water and salt. There is no big
> secret, anybody can do it.

>
> But
> you don't need anybody's approval to make good bread, there are loads
> of people making much better bread than Poilane.
>


Question for you: if bread is just water, flour and salt what factors
do you think allow some people to make much better bread than Poilane?

The question I have is what are the most important factors that would
contribute to a distinctive bread profile in your experience/opinion.

Roland

Kenneth's Poilane
 

Joe Doe wrote:
> Question for you: if bread is just water, flour and salt what factors
> do you think allow some people to make much better bread than Poilane?
>
> The question I have is what are the most important factors that would
> contribute to a distinctive bread profile in your experience/opinion.
>
>
Noise - he who makes the loudest noise gets the most attention.

Has nothing to do with quality. To stay within fermentation: US beer is
an excellent example.

Also, I am not you, but who cares.

Sam
> Roland
> _______________________________________________
> Rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough
>
>

Kenneth's Poilane
 

> Your instructions were not terribly well written. When I first read
> them, I ignored them because I didn't think it was a sourdough recipe.
> More on that in paragraph. The fact that there was only one response to
> the formula kinda substantiates by belief.... especially since that
> response was, "is this grams or bakers percentage?" No one seems to
> have been inspired to try the formula, judging by the lack of "Thanks
> for the great recipe" posts.

What can I say, I'm sorry I'm not a book writter. I'm not going around
saying I know how to make the best bread. I just see people talking
about "Poilane" bread so I though some of you guys might be interested
to know how Poilane make their bread. The instructions I gave are not
inspiring because that's the way they make their bread.
I'm sorry to hear nobody's interested in the formula. It's probably
because there's nothing special about this formula. Which brings to
the point of my first post: There's nothing special about Poilane's
bread, expect the wood oven and the name.

>
> I have been a hobbyist baker for over 30 years, and a professional for
> over 5. I've never seen the term "old dough" applied to sourdough. Old
> dough has always been a yeasted process. And more yeast is added to the
> final dough. Which is why I assumed the recipe wasn't sourdough and I
> made the changes I did.

Very good for you. I've been a ""professional"" baker for 3 years and
a hobbyist for over 2.
The first time I saw the term "old dough" applied to sourdough is when
I went for a trial to Poilane's bakery.
I don't know who makes the regulations for names of fermented things.
I guess if the old dough you use is sourdough, well you're making
sourdough bread.
I'm not inventing anything, I'm just saying things how they are. If
you take a piece of dough from a previous mix and make a new dough,
well you're making bread. I'm sure that's how bakers have been doing
their bread for ages, and you don't need to add commercial yeast in
any stage. Commercial yeast being a relatively recent invention I
wonder how bakers were using old dough in a yeasted process. Once
again, who makes those rules?

>
> You're right, I didn't accommodate loss in baking, the loaf should have
> been larger. Also, the batch of dough should have been even larger to
> accommodate saving more dough for the next batch. My bad.
>

Good point there, I forgot the dough for next batch! My bad as well ;)

> Most of the time when people in this newsgroup are making things too
> hard for themselves, it is because they are trying to figure out hastily
> written instructions.

I'm not good at giving instructions, I must admit. I was just
unpleasantly surprised by the drastic way you rephrased what I said.

>
> I've been in a number of artisan bakeries, and have been trained by some
> excellent bakers. In all cases I am familiar with, they weigh ALL
> ingredients, liquid and solid. And then they adjust the dough as
> needed. Most bakers I know prefer to adjust the water as that doesn't
> change the rest of the bakers percentages.
>

That's true as well. I weigh all the ingredients myself too. I
shouldn't have said "most" bakeries because that's probably not the
case. But I'm sure many do as I've already seen a few. When people
have been making the same bread for years, I guess they're not
bothered any more to waste time weighing stuff, and since flour comes
in weighed bags, it makes it easier to put one bag of flour, a few
jugs of starter and a few handfuls of salt.
Once again I'm just bringing some input about Poilane because
everybody seems so interested.
They only weigh the salt in their bread. then they put how much water
they need using a graduated bucket, and then add flour until the
consistency is right.
I'm not saying that's the best way. I actually don't think it's a good
way.

There again I think anybody really interested in bread making should
learn how to assess the consistency of the bread.
Percentages of water and flour can be really different depending on
many things and don't always mean much. Following a recipe to the
letter doesn't always do good.
I think recipes are good for pastry stuff, cake stuff, and other fancy
thingies. but when making bread, you have to feel the dough and then
see.

It's very rare that I mix one batch of bread and never add water or
flour, there's always a need for adjustment. But there I'm sure you'll
agree.

> In the end, there are a lot of ways to make good bread,

That is very true. And I just think people sometimes are trying so
hard to find complicated ways to make their bread, while it can be so
simple. But that's just my feeling ;)



Viince

Kenneth's Poilane
 

On 26 Oct, 17:24, Joe Doe > wrote:
> In article . com>,
>
> viince > wrote:
>
> That's probably the problem with you
>
> > guys you just want to make everything more complicated than it really
> > is. Bread is bread, it's just flour water and salt. There is no big
> > secret, anybody can do it.
>
> > But
> > you don't need anybody's approval to make good bread, there are loads
> > of people making much better bread than Poilane.
>
> Question for you: if bread is just water, flour and salt what factors
> do you think allow some people to make much better bread than Poilane?
>
> The question I have is what are the most important factors that would
> contribute to a distinctive bread profile in your experience/opinion.
>
> Roland

Good question.
I personally think the most important factors when making bread are
baking and fermentation.
Other important factors such as mixing, shaping, handling, slashing,
etc also contribute to the quality. But I think the baking makes the
biggest difference.

What allows people to make much better bread than Poilane is the
fermentation. For the baking good luck because the way they bake their
bread is very close to being the best. (The best I think is baking in
a black oven)

All this is just my opinion, I would love to discuss this with people
having different opinion, but we might have to start a new topic!

Kenneth's Poilane
 

"viince" > in message ups.com...
in response to the following question:
> > ... what are the most important factors that would contribute
> > to a distinctive bread profile in your experience/opinion(?)
wrote:

> What allows people to make much better bread than Poilane is the
> fermentation.

That makes sense if Poilane is some kind of matzo cracker.

> For the baking good luck because the way they bake their
> bread is very close to being the best.

Now I am confused again. Whose/which is best? Just exactly
how do they bake it?

> (The best I think is baking in a black oven)

Black ovens are the easiest to clean because you don't see the dirt.

> All this is just my opinion, I would love to discuss this with people
> having different opinion, but we might have to start a new topic!

Me, too, but I am still trying to figure out about the WMDs and other
similar issues. Well, the photo links are pretty easy to understand. But
the written parts, except about the black oven, are hard to understand.

--
Dicky

Kenneth's Poilane
 

viince wrote:
>
> But I think the baking makes the
> biggest difference.
>
How about grain type? Wheat, spelt, kamut, rye and then flour type/ash
content.

I mean, what kind of question is this - most important factors? Once you
isolated them and know it all, what do you do?
Turn the knobs on the more important factors first or more - for what
purpose?

Or is this a philosophical question?

I'd say, the most important factor on bread is the baker - without
baker, no bread - period!

Then there is this:

> the way they bake their
> bread is very close to being the best.
Absolutely - it's always good to strive for perfection but who is the
judge for the perfect bread taste?

Sam

Kenneth's Poilane
 

> > For the baking good luck because the way they bake their
> > bread is very close to being the best.
>
> Now I am confused again. Whose/which is best? Just exactly
> how do they bake it?
>

They use very big gueulard wood oven (this one with the fire box
underneath and the flame going in the oven chamber)
Their oven can fit more than 60 loaves which is really huge, the oven
peel is reaal long.
When I talking about baking I'm talking about what oven you use, but
also how good you bake it.

I don't know what WMD means.

Kenneth's Poilane
 

On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 19:33:06 -0700, viince >
wrote:


>There again I think anybody really interested in bread making should
>learn how to assess the consistency of the bread.
>Percentages of water and flour can be really different depending on
>many things and don't always mean much. Following a recipe to the
>letter doesn't always do good.
>I think recipes are good for pastry stuff, cake stuff, and other fancy
>thingies. but when making bread, you have to feel the dough and then
>see.
>

A man after my own heart. Be careful, though, around here, such an
attitude can get you shot.

Boron

Kenneth's Poilane
 

> How about grain type? Wheat, spelt, kamut, rye and then flour type/ash
> content.
>

oops very true, grain type and extraction would go very high on the
list of importance.

> I mean, what kind of question is this - most important factors? Once you
> isolated them and know it all, what do you do?
> Turn the knobs on the more important factors first or more - for what
> purpose?
>
> Or is this a philosophical question?
>
> I'd say, the most important factor on bread is the baker - without
> baker, no bread - period!
>

That's true, I think that goes without saying.
When I'm saying which factor influences the most the quality of the
bread, I'm talking about the factor, not the details.
When I say baking, I'm saying it depends on how good the bread is
baked, meaning the baker baking the bread does it good, at the right
temperature and timing and in a good oven well managed.
Same for all that is mixing shaping slashing etc, it all depends on
the baker, how good he does it.


> Absolutely - it's always good to strive for perfection but who is the
> judge for the perfect bread taste?
>

Well I AM of course.
for my own taste :p
Of course I had this conversation with my girlfriend many times
because everytime I bring bread back home she tells me its burnt.
Perfect bread is for everybody to judge and I'm just giving my
opinion.
But still, it doesnt change which factors influence the quality of the
bread, I think the baking has a great importance, maybe for one person
the baking is important to have a thin crispy crust, for another
person you need a very thick dark crust. It's different taste, but
it's still the baking that influences it.

To make an order I'd say personally:

1. baker skills
2. Fermentation
3. Baking
4. Ingredients maybe

I just changed my mind, fermentation goes before baking. I think they
are the 2 that influence the taste of bread the most.

After we probably must make difference between the taste of bread and
the overall quality, esthetics and all.

Or maybe we just wasting time talking here.
flour and water, bang, you have bread.

:p

Kenneth's Poilane
 

> A man after my own heart. Be careful, though, around here, such an
> attitude can get you shot.
>

I know ;)

> Boron

Kenneth's Poilane
 

Boron Elgar wrote:
>> A man after my own heart. Be careful, though, around here, such an
>> attitude can get you shot.
>>
>>

Actually, it would be bickering, name calling and refusing to be civil
that will "get you shot.". The people here are, by and large, civil.
But they don't take provocation very well.

Mike

--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
A scratchy chin
Like bright
Pink socks
Puts any romance
On the rocks
Burma-Shave

Kenneth's Poilane
 

"viince" > wrote in message ups.com...
> [ ... ]
> To make an order I'd say personally:
>
> 1. baker skills
> 2. Fermentation
> 3. Baking
> 4. Ingredients maybe

In considering baker qualities, should we not also include purity of heart?

> Or maybe we just wasting time talking here.
> flour and water, bang, you have bread.

Sometimes pffft!

(Sometimes, then, a thread about that. Could be a book, even.)

--
Diicky

Kenneth's Poilane
 

viince wrote:
> I personally think the most important factors when making bread are
> baking and fermentation.
> Other important factors such as mixing, shaping, handling, slashing,
> etc also contribute to the quality. But I think the baking makes the
> biggest difference.
>
I think it was Peter Reinhart who once said that that the baking only
contributes about 10% of the final quality of the bread. I'm not sure
how you quantify that, but it's probably close to right. However,
baking can detract a whole lot more than that 10% if it isn't done right.

My own feeling is that what is most important in any given loaf of bread
is what wasn't done right. A great baker, a great oven, a great mixer,
excellent fermentation, great shaping and great baking.... but the flour
was seriously sub-par. You're gonna get an OK loaf of bread at best.

A great loaf of bread is like a symphony where all the players are
playing their parts with distinction. The triangle player being off
time can make a symphony a disaster or a joke. A violinist who isn't
quite there can bring tears to your eyes. And so on.

Mike


--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
Computer programmers don't byte, they nybble a bit.

Kenneth's Poilane
 

> In considering baker qualities, should we not also include purity of heart?
>

Mmm I'm not sure... I know a few dicks who make quite good bread... :D
But one of my coworker use to say: "You have to be born a baker, you
need the thing in your hands that make the bread good. Some people
will try to do exactly same than you, using the same recipe and all,
but their bread will be shit, that's just because they can't do it".
He was talking about our current headbaker. And it was true, his bread
was just crap :p


> > Or maybe we just wasting time talking here.
> > flour and water, bang, you have bread.
>
> Sometimes pffft!
>
> (Sometimes, then, a thread about that. Could be a book, even.)
>
I might, but unfortunately there's not much to talk about.

Kenneth's Poilane
 

> I think it was Peter Reinhart who once said that that the baking only
> contributes about 10% of the final quality of the bread. I'm not sure
> how you quantify that, but it's probably close to right. However,
> baking can detract a whole lot more than that 10% if it isn't done right.
>

True, you can spend so much time making beautiful perfect bread but if
you burn it or overproof it or whatever, that's it, gone.
I personally think the baking is much more than 10%. That's where you
get the crust, and a good crust makes a big different for the taste
and even keeping of the bread.

> My own feeling is that what is most important in any given loaf of bread
> is what wasn't done right. A great baker, a great oven, a great mixer,
> excellent fermentation, great shaping and great baking.... but the flour
> was seriously sub-par. You're gonna get an OK loaf of bread at best.

I don't know what sub-par means. But if I want to make bread at home,
I won't buy the most expensive or I dunno what gluten content flour. I
go to lidl and by the cheapest all purpose flour. And the bread is
very good. (well for me:p)

Kenneth's Poilane
 

viince wrote:

> ...And I just think people sometimes are trying so hard to find
> complicated ways to make their bread, while it can be so simple....

Many of those people have rather undernourished egos, and need to feel
they're better at something than anyone else, by making it so
complicated (and expensive).

B/