I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

I just finished baking some loaves of sourdough and they came out great in
terms of texture and crust except I feel the bread needs more flavor/umpf
and I don't quite know what to do to get more flavor.

I had attempted making a sourdough starter from scratch using KA organic
wheat flour and Bob's Red Mill Rye flour like Mike Avery and Samartha,
however each time the starter would bubble up when first mixing the water
and flour, but no activity up to four days. I gave up on this method and
started using a method off the internet that uses flour, water and yeast
(the kind you find in your supermarket baking aisle). This has worked
really well for me. The starter doubles and collapses with every 24 hour
feeding. I start with 25g water, 25g unbleached AP flour, and a 1/4 tsp. of
fleichmann's rapid rise yeast. After every 24 hours I double the starter.
I do this for about a week to (what I think) build up flavor in the starter
and let the yeast "go wild."

I used Samartha's handy dough calculator page to make an 1800g dough which I
later split into 3 loaves for baking. I used 600g starter, 760g KA bread
flour, 420g water and dissolved 20g salt in the water when I made the dough.
I kneaded that for about 10 minutes in my Kitchenaid 600 series mixer with
the "powerknead" dough hook. I then scraped the extremely sticky dough into
a mixing bowl that was coated with cooking spray and I sprayed the top of
the dough to prevent dehydration. Covered with plastic wrap and I let it
rise until it had reached the top of the bowl. This took about an hour and
a half I think. When it reached the top, I poured it out onto a floured
surface to add more flour and knock it down/knead it some more and get it to
my desired tackyness. I then put it in the mixer bowl (since it's bigger
than the first mixing bowl), that I coated with cooking spray, sprayed the
top and covered with plastic wrap again. I let this rise again for about
another hour, when it seemed to have doubled in volume. I took it out of
the bowl onto a floured worksurface, cut the dough into three sections and
then formed them into ovals which I then put into sprayed bread pans and I
let them rise again for maybe 30 minutes. I turned the oven on to preheat
(with waterbath in oven to preheat with oven), taking about another 30
minutes. The loaves were close to double when I put them in the oven after
it hit 500 F. Sprayed the tops every three minutes during the first 10
minutes. It took about 30 minutes to get the loaves to about 195 F internal
temperature. I should have moved the oven rack down one level as the crust
was a bit over done from the steam (dark brown/black) but

From what I've read from other's websites and this newgroups, I surmise that
either I'm using the wrong kind of yeast or I need to let the dough do more
rising/fermenting to get a more sour sourdough. I don't have a pH meter so
I have no idea how the pH is with my dough though the process. I'm hesitant
to try longer rise times as I am afraid that the yeast will putter out and
cause my dough to collapse like the starter does after feeding or is this
fear ungrounded? I'd appreciate any input. Thank you.

-Thomas C.

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

On 3 Sep 2007, at 08:26, Thomas C. wrote:

>
> I had attempted making a sourdough starter from scratch using KA
> organic
> wheat flour and Bob's Red Mill Rye flour like Mike Avery and Samartha,
> however each time the starter would bubble up when first mixing the
> water
> and flour, but no activity up to four days. I gave up on this
> method and
> started using a method off the internet that uses flour, water and
> yeast
> (the kind you find in your supermarket baking aisle). This has worked
> really well for me. The starter doubles and collapses with every
> 24 hour
> feeding. I start with 25g water, 25g unbleached AP flour, and a
> 1/4 tsp. of
> fleichmann's rapid rise yeast. After every 24 hours I double the
> starter.
> I do this for about a week to (what I think) build up flavor in the
> starter
> and let the yeast "go wild."

It's not surprising that 'worked well' Thomas you're seeing the
commercial yeast at work. I personally think it's a myth that you can
start a sourdough starter by using sourdough. Maybe if you are very
patient you can get a starter going like this but I used one like
this for well over a decade and it was never anything like the true
sourdough starter that I made from scratch using the method in the
faq. Thank goodness for the internet.

> From what I've read from other's websites and this newgroups, I
> surmise that
> either I'm using the wrong kind of yeast or I need to let the dough
> do more
> rising/fermenting to get a more sour sourdough.

Well yes you're using commercial yeast. You're trying to be an
alchemist. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. If you
want Candida milleri or Saccharomyces exiguus don't start with
Saccharomyces cerevisiae.

My advice is to keep using the starter you're talking about to make
bread and don't worry about the flavour (remember sourdough is not a
description of the bread but of the dough when, probably, not being
used) and in the mean time make another starter from scratch using
these instructions or the ones they are based on in the FAQ.

How To Make Your Own Starter From Scratch.

• 1. Take:

2 oz (50g) of Whole Wheat or Rye (Organic if you can)
2 oz (50g) of Chlorine free water 70-85F (20 - 27C)(boiled, filtered,
bottled,
some good tap waters)

Mix in a container with a loose fitting lid or film and set aside in
a warm
(70-85F (20 - 27C)) place.

• 2. After 24 hours throw half of the mix away and feed with the above.

• 3. Repeat until the mixture shows some bubbles, probably on the
third or fourth day.

• 4. When the mix starts to show some bubbles feed, for best results,
with the flour you intend to bake with.

• 5. Once the mixture shows a lot of activity two - four hours after
feeding and smells of of alcohol it's ready.

Jim

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

On 3 Sep 2007, at 09:57, Jim wrote:

> I personally think it's a myth that you can
> start a sourdough starter by using [commercial yeast].


Ooops I shouldn't type without first being topped up with my morning
coffee. lol, sorry about that.

Jim

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

On 2007-09-03, Thomas C. > wrote:
> I just finished baking some loaves of sourdough and they came out great in
> terms of texture and crust except I feel the bread needs more flavor/umpf
> and I don't quite know what to do to get more flavor.
>
> I had attempted making a sourdough starter from scratch using KA organic
> wheat flour and Bob's Red Mill Rye flour like Mike Avery and Samartha,
> however each time the starter would bubble up when first mixing the water
> and flour, but no activity up to four days. I gave up on this method and
> started using a method off the internet that uses flour, water and yeast
> (the kind you find in your supermarket baking aisle).

There's your problem. Thousands of bakers throughout history have
managed to domesticate wild organisms to create their starters without
the assistance of baker's yeast. Using baker's yeast provides the
illusion of having a good starter, but as you have found, it produces
bland bread. Eventually -- and it may take months -- your
yeast-started starter might shift to more of a wild flora, and start
making good bread. In that time, you could have started several "from
scratch" starters.

Make sure you are not using chlorinated water. If you local water
utility uses chloramine, note that it is *not* removed by boiling. Do
not use distilled water either. Bottled spring water is probably
fine, or carbon-filtered tap water. Make sure there are no detergent
or bleach residues in the containers and utensils you're using. Plain
distilled white vinegar works very well to rinse away residues. You
don't need to rinse the vinegar itself off, either, as a small amount
of it won't hurt the organisms you're after. Once your culture is
established, you won't need to be quite so careful.

You say "no activity for four days". Does this mean you're not
feeding it during those four days? Feed it every day, whether you see
activity or not. You may not initially have strong gas producers in
the mix, but they'll show up eventually. But you have to keep
feeding. Doubling (or throwing out half and replacing it) is a good
feeding regimen initially. After the culture is established, you
might switch to tripling, quadrupling, or quintupling. Actually, I
increase mine by a multiple of 9 each time I feed. (What is that,
nonupling?) And that's in the winter -- during summer time, I
increase by a factor of 14 daily. But only do that once you have a
nice stable culture. Work your way up to the more aggressive
feedings.

If you are still having problems, I have heard that using pineapple
juice instead of water when you first mix the starter can be helpful.
This would provide the acidic environment preferred by the organisms
you're after, and would also provide plenty of sugar for them to eat.
Do not continue to use pineapple juice after the first feeding.


> I'm hesitant to try longer rise times as I am afraid that the yeast
> will putter out and cause my dough to collapse like the starter does
> after feeding or is this fear ungrounded?

This is not the right attitude for this hobby. Have no fear. Try it.
If the yeast putters out and/or your dough collapses, you'll know not
to do that next time, and furthermore, if you keep notes, you'll know
just how far you can push it. This is better than guessing.
Everybody's starter is different, so my timings might not work for
you. (Just don't experiment with the loaf that you're planning to
serve at your best friend's wedding reception.)

But remember to have fun.

--
Randall

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

On Sep 3, 3:26 am, "Thomas C." > wrote:

> I kneaded that for about 10 minutes in my Kitchenaid 600 series mixer with
> the "powerknead" dough hook. I then scraped the extremely sticky dough into
> a mixing bowl that was coated with cooking spray and I sprayed the top of
> the dough to prevent dehydration. Covered with plastic wrap...

Between Jim and Randall's posts, you'll get the starter issue
resolved. But the flavor issue will remain... To get flavor, you need
a slow and "balanced" fermentation. By balance, I mean developing the
acid, the gas, and the gluten together... over a 12 to 24 hour period.
With the KitchenAid, you get your gluten way ahead of schedule.

You're off to an excellent start with Samartha's calculator, now you
should go he

http://www.sourdoughhome.com/index.html

go to the tips section and watch the stretch and fold videos...

Give that technique a try. It's dead easy.

Also, get a 2 or 3 L. dough bucket for the primary fermentation... 2
or 3 bucks at a kitchen supply place. Makes life easy and you won't
need to spray or fool with plastic wrap.

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

Okay, I will try the ogranic flour starter approach again and try it for a
week (7 days instead of 4) and see what happens.

-Thomas C.

"Jim" > wrote in message
news:mailman.0.1188809883.33515.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
On 3 Sep 2007, at 08:26, Thomas C. wrote:

>
> I had attempted making a sourdough starter from scratch using KA organic
> wheat flour and Bob's Red Mill Rye flour like Mike Avery and Samartha,
> however each time the starter would bubble up when first mixing the water
> and flour, but no activity up to four days. I gave up on this method and
> started using a method off the internet that uses flour, water and yeast
> (the kind you find in your supermarket baking aisle). This has worked
> really well for me. The starter doubles and collapses with every 24 hour
> feeding. I start with 25g water, 25g unbleached AP flour, and a 1/4 tsp.
> of
> fleichmann's rapid rise yeast. After every 24 hours I double the
> starter.
> I do this for about a week to (what I think) build up flavor in the
> starter
> and let the yeast "go wild."

It's not surprising that 'worked well' Thomas you're seeing the
commercial yeast at work. I personally think it's a myth that you can
start a sourdough starter by using sourdough. Maybe if you are very
patient you can get a starter going like this but I used one like
this for well over a decade and it was never anything like the true
sourdough starter that I made from scratch using the method in the
faq. Thank goodness for the internet.

> From what I've read from other's websites and this newgroups, I surmise
> that
> either I'm using the wrong kind of yeast or I need to let the dough do
> more
> rising/fermenting to get a more sour sourdough.

Well yes you're using commercial yeast. You're trying to be an
alchemist. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. If you
want Candida milleri or Saccharomyces exiguus don't start with
Saccharomyces cerevisiae.

My advice is to keep using the starter you're talking about to make
bread and don't worry about the flavour (remember sourdough is not a
description of the bread but of the dough when, probably, not being
used) and in the mean time make another starter from scratch using
these instructions or the ones they are based on in the FAQ.

How To Make Your Own Starter From Scratch.

• 1. Take:

2 oz (50g) of Whole Wheat or Rye (Organic if you can)
2 oz (50g) of Chlorine free water 70-85F (20 - 27C)(boiled, filtered,
bottled,
some good tap waters)

Mix in a container with a loose fitting lid or film and set aside in
a warm
(70-85F (20 - 27C)) place.

• 2. After 24 hours throw half of the mix away and feed with the above.

• 3. Repeat until the mixture shows some bubbles, probably on the
third or fourth day.

• 4. When the mix starts to show some bubbles feed, for best results,
with the flour you intend to bake with.

• 5. Once the mixture shows a lot of activity two - four hours after
feeding and smells of of alcohol it's ready.

Jim=

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

"Randall Nortman" > wrote in message
...
> On 2007-09-03, Thomas C. > wrote:
>> I just finished baking some loaves of sourdough and they came out great
>> in
>> terms of texture and crust except I feel the bread needs more flavor/umpf
>> and I don't quite know what to do to get more flavor.
>>
>> I had attempted making a sourdough starter from scratch using KA organic
>> wheat flour and Bob's Red Mill Rye flour like Mike Avery and Samartha,
>> however each time the starter would bubble up when first mixing the water
>> and flour, but no activity up to four days. I gave up on this method and
>> started using a method off the internet that uses flour, water and yeast
>> (the kind you find in your supermarket baking aisle).
>
> There's your problem. Thousands of bakers throughout history have
> managed to domesticate wild organisms to create their starters without
> the assistance of baker's yeast. Using baker's yeast provides the
> illusion of having a good starter, but as you have found, it produces
> bland bread. Eventually -- and it may take months -- your
> yeast-started starter might shift to more of a wild flora, and start
> making good bread. In that time, you could have started several "from
> scratch" starters.
>
> Make sure you are not using chlorinated water. If you local water
> utility uses chloramine, note that it is *not* removed by boiling. Do
> not use distilled water either. Bottled spring water is probably
> fine, or carbon-filtered tap water. Make sure there are no detergent
> or bleach residues in the containers and utensils you're using. Plain
> distilled white vinegar works very well to rinse away residues. You
> don't need to rinse the vinegar itself off, either, as a small amount
> of it won't hurt the organisms you're after. Once your culture is
> established, you won't need to be quite so careful.

I'm using Safeway (a supermarket brand if you're unfamiliar, e.g. store
brand) Refresh Purified water which went through de-ionization and/or
reverse osmosis (that's what is on the label). Is this bad? I tried to
look at my city's webpage and find out what form of Chlorine they use for
the tap water but I couldn't find any information.

>
> You say "no activity for four days". Does this mean you're not
> feeding it during those four days? Feed it every day, whether you see
> activity or not. You may not initially have strong gas producers in
> the mix, but they'll show up eventually. But you have to keep
> feeding. Doubling (or throwing out half and replacing it) is a good
> feeding regimen initially. After the culture is established, you
> might switch to tripling, quadrupling, or quintupling. Actually, I
> increase mine by a multiple of 9 each time I feed. (What is that,
> nonupling?) And that's in the winter -- during summer time, I
> increase by a factor of 14 daily. But only do that once you have a
> nice stable culture. Work your way up to the more aggressive
> feedings.

I was feeding ever 24 hours. Started with 50g flour/50g water, after 24
hours added 50g flour/50g starter, after 24 hours added 100g flour/100g
water, etc.

>
> If you are still having problems, I have heard that using pineapple
> juice instead of water when you first mix the starter can be helpful.
> This would provide the acidic environment preferred by the organisms
> you're after, and would also provide plenty of sugar for them to eat.
> Do not continue to use pineapple juice after the first feeding.
>
>
>> I'm hesitant to try longer rise times as I am afraid that the yeast
>> will putter out and cause my dough to collapse like the starter does
>> after feeding or is this fear ungrounded?
>
> This is not the right attitude for this hobby. Have no fear. Try it.
> If the yeast putters out and/or your dough collapses, you'll know not
> to do that next time, and furthermore, if you keep notes, you'll know
> just how far you can push it. This is better than guessing.
> Everybody's starter is different, so my timings might not work for
> you. (Just don't experiment with the loaf that you're planning to
> serve at your best friend's wedding reception.)

I didn't want to ruin the bread because I know my method so far makes a
bread with a great crust and crumb and density and chewiness, but I didn't
want to sacrifice all those things to try and do a longer fermentation (it
was quite late when I did this and I wanted to get to bed at a decent hour
=) ). However, next time I will experiment with longer fermentations by
starting (earlier) in the morning.

>
> But remember to have fun.

It's time consuming but I love it.

>
> --
> Randall

On a side note: When you've got the starter (organic rye and/or wheat flour
based) started and it rises and collapses nicely, can you swith to AP flour
to continue feeding it?

-Thomas C.

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

"Will" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Sep 3, 3:26 am, "Thomas C." > wrote:
>
>> I kneaded that for about 10 minutes in my Kitchenaid 600 series mixer
>> with
>> the "powerknead" dough hook. I then scraped the extremely sticky dough
>> into
>> a mixing bowl that was coated with cooking spray and I sprayed the top of
>> the dough to prevent dehydration. Covered with plastic wrap...
>
> Between Jim and Randall's posts, you'll get the starter issue
> resolved. But the flavor issue will remain... To get flavor, you need
> a slow and "balanced" fermentation. By balance, I mean developing the
> acid, the gas, and the gluten together... over a 12 to 24 hour period.
> With the KitchenAid, you get your gluten way ahead of schedule.

I should have been more precise about the dough hook. It's a spiral dough
hook, rather than the C-shaped one (if you've looked at kitchenaid mixers).
I have mixed feelings about it (it seems to work well with the recipes in
the mixer manual, but not ones I get from the internet) and I'm thinking
about getting a C-shaped one when I have more free cash and see how it
compares. The dough when first made is an extremely sticky dough that just
seems to sit in the bowl (like batter), while a small tornado like piece of
dough just rises up onto the dough hook, falls over from it's own weight,
get's pressed down by the hook and then repeats. It never balls up onto the
dough hook. I used a dough hydration of 68% on Samartha's calculator.
Perhaps that is too high?

But I have noticed the gluten structure definately begins to come together
after the primary and secondary fermentations. I had to add more flour when
I dumped the dough after the primary fermentation onto the work surface as
it was just too sticky to be manageable. The additional flour really helped
cut down the stickyness to just a tackyness that would stick to your hands
if you held it too long.
>
> You're off to an excellent start with Samartha's calculator, now you
> should go he

I decided to not rely on cups and teaspoons anymore, but by weights which
are definately more precise (and more helpful). This calculator tool is
great.

>
> http://www.sourdoughhome.com/index.html
>
> go to the tips section and watch the stretch and fold videos...
>
> Give that technique a try. It's dead easy.

I've looked at this, but haven't really implemented it until after the
secondary fermentation as my dough has just not able to stretch and fold
until after that point.

>
> Also, get a 2 or 3 L. dough bucket for the primary fermentation... 2
> or 3 bucks at a kitchen supply place. Makes life easy and you won't
> need to spray or fool with plastic wrap.
>

I'll have to find a kitchen supply place that has those. I just searched
online at sur la table and bed bath and beyond but didn't come up with any
relevant results.

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

On 2007-09-03, Thomas C. > wrote:
[...]
> I'm using Safeway (a supermarket brand if you're unfamiliar, e.g. store
> brand) Refresh Purified water which went through de-ionization and/or
> reverse osmosis (that's what is on the label). Is this bad? I tried to
> look at my city's webpage and find out what form of Chlorine they use for
> the tap water but I couldn't find any information.

It is probably fine, though it might be lacking in minerals. However,
if you're using whole-grain flour I guess it would supply enough
mineral content that it wouldn't really matter. Good RO systems put
minerals back into the water after the reverse osmosis takes them out.
But the important thing is that it will not have any chlorine or
chloramine in it.

A normal pitcher filter or undersink/countertop carbon block filter
will also do a fine job, and is probably more economical over the long
run.


> I was feeding ever 24 hours. Started with 50g flour/50g water, after 24
> hours added 50g flour/50g starter, after 24 hours added 100g flour/100g
> water, etc.

You will save yourself flour in the long run if you just throw out 50g
of starter (retain 50g) and then add 25g flour and 25g water to
replace what you threw out. There is no need to let it keep doubling
-- it would rapidly consume all the available space in your house, and
then your neighborhood. Only certain food writers with a poor
understanding of microbiology (e.g. Nancy Silverton) think this is a
good idea.


> On a side note: When you've got the starter (organic rye and/or wheat flour
> based) started and it rises and collapses nicely, can you swith to AP flour
> to continue feeding it?

You certainly can. I'm not going to stop you. I maintain my starter
on 100% whole rye all the time. Of course, this means that a tiny
amount of rye flour ends up even in my white flour breads. But I
always use a very small amount of starter in my doughs, so it really
doesn't hurt anything. On the other hand, it can be hard to find
whole rye flour that hasn't gone rancid -- I grind my own. Whole
wheat flour would be a better bet if you don't grind your own.

But the majority of sourdough bakers switch to normal white flour for
their starters once started, so feel free to go down that path.

--
Randall

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

On 2007-09-03, Thomas C. > wrote:
[...]
> But I have noticed the gluten structure definately begins to come together
> after the primary and secondary fermentations.

And this reveals the working principle behind all the no-knead,
stretch-and-fold, and autolyse (delayed kneading) techniques. Just
letting the flour sit in contact with water will develop gluten over
time without you having to do anything. It goes against conventional
wisdom and what is written in most books, but it is true. Mix your
ingredients briefly and then let them sit for an hour or so. You will
find that after the rest period kneading is much more effective, and
the dough is less sticky.

I used to use a KitchenAid to handle my super-sticky doughs. But now
I usually do a 24-hour bread without any "kneading" per se, just a few
stretch and fold cycles throughout the fermentation. It works
grandly. (The first few folds are accomplished in the mixing bowl
with the help of a wooden spoon, as the dough is still too sticky at
that point to be workable with hands.)

--
Randall

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

While I have my sourdough starter in the long term storage I use commercial
yeast to prepare the bread. It takes 4 days for the whole process to be done
but the bread will be flavorful. However it is different flavor than
sourdough bread and not everyone may like it. It is also hard to develop
sour in one time process so it is not very good for using with rye flour
unless the ferment is kept going for prolonged time which I never do.


"Thomas C." > wrote in message
...
>I just finished baking some loaves of sourdough and they came out great in
>terms of texture and crust except I feel the bread needs more flavor/umpf
>and I don't quite know what to do to get more flavor.
>
> I had attempted making a sourdough starter from scratch using KA organic
> wheat flour and Bob's Red Mill Rye flour like Mike Avery and Samartha,
> however each time the starter would bubble up when first mixing the water
> and flour, but no activity up to four days. I gave up on this method and
> started using a method off the internet that uses flour, water and yeast
> (the kind you find in your supermarket baking aisle). This has worked
> really well for me. The starter doubles and collapses with every 24 hour
> feeding. I start with 25g water, 25g unbleached AP flour, and a 1/4 tsp.
> of fleichmann's rapid rise yeast. After every 24 hours I double the
> starter. I do this for about a week to (what I think) build up flavor in
> the starter and let the yeast "go wild."
>
> I used Samartha's handy dough calculator page to make an 1800g dough which
> I later split into 3 loaves for baking. I used 600g starter, 760g KA
> bread flour, 420g water and dissolved 20g salt in the water when I made
> the dough. I kneaded that for about 10 minutes in my Kitchenaid 600 series
> mixer with the "powerknead" dough hook. I then scraped the extremely
> sticky dough into a mixing bowl that was coated with cooking spray and I
> sprayed the top of the dough to prevent dehydration. Covered with plastic
> wrap and I let it rise until it had reached the top of the bowl. This
> took about an hour and a half I think. When it reached the top, I poured
> it out onto a floured surface to add more flour and knock it down/knead it
> some more and get it to my desired tackyness. I then put it in the mixer
> bowl (since it's bigger than the first mixing bowl), that I coated with
> cooking spray, sprayed the top and covered with plastic wrap again. I let
> this rise again for about another hour, when it seemed to have doubled in
> volume. I took it out of the bowl onto a floured worksurface, cut the
> dough into three sections and then formed them into ovals which I then put
> into sprayed bread pans and I let them rise again for maybe 30 minutes. I
> turned the oven on to preheat (with waterbath in oven to preheat with
> oven), taking about another 30 minutes. The loaves were close to double
> when I put them in the oven after it hit 500 F. Sprayed the tops every
> three minutes during the first 10 minutes. It took about 30 minutes to
> get the loaves to about 195 F internal temperature. I should have moved
> the oven rack down one level as the crust was a bit over done from the
> steam (dark brown/black) but
>
> From what I've read from other's websites and this newgroups, I surmise
> that either I'm using the wrong kind of yeast or I need to let the dough
> do more rising/fermenting to get a more sour sourdough. I don't have a pH
> meter so I have no idea how the pH is with my dough though the process.
> I'm hesitant to try longer rise times as I am afraid that the yeast will
> putter out and cause my dough to collapse like the starter does after
> feeding or is this fear ungrounded? I'd appreciate any input. Thank you.
>
> -Thomas C.
>

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

"Randall Nortman" > wrote in message ...

> [ ... ] (irrelevant subject material deleted)

> Good RO systems put minerals back into the water after the
> reverse osmosis takes them out.

Guess one should just not start if one's reverse osmosis system
is substandard?

> A normal pitcher filter or undersink/countertop carbon block filter
> will also do a fine job, and is probably more economical over the long
> run.

Frankly, my tap water, unmodified, seems quite fine. But what do
I know?

> I maintain my starter on 100% whole rye all the time ... I grind
> my own. Whole wheat flour would be a better bet if you don't grind
> your own.

Well, here is a good reason for maintaining with white flour, particularly
bleached white flour. It is pretty nearly sterile as the bleaching process
is deadly towards microorganisms. Whole grain, on the other hand,
particularly "organic" whole grain, iss feelthy!

> But the majority of sourdough bakers switch to normal white flour
> for their starters once started, so feel free to go down that path.

Many, and I'd wager the majority of sourdough bakers, get their
sourdough culture from someone else. (But, when you do that, and
you follow the simple instructions that come with most starters, and
all goes quite smoothly, what would be left to bellyache about at r.f.s.?)

--
Dicky.

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

"Will" > wrote in message oups.com...

> To get flavor, you need a slow and "balanced" fermentation. By
> balance, I mean developing the acid, the gas, and the gluten
> together... over a 12 to 24 hour period. With the KitchenAid,
> you get your gluten way ahead of schedule.

With the KitchenAid, the gluten is ready when the gas arrives. Towards
the end, conditions concomitant to acidification start to rot the gluten,
so that's when we stick it into the oven, before too many of the gas
bubbles have fizzled.

> You're off to an excellent start with Samartha's calculator ...

No disrespect, but my little ol' Casio works pretty good, too.
Or pencil arithmetic. Or good guess work. Or bygosh and bygolly.

> Also, get a 2 or 3 L. dough bucket for the primary fermentation... 2
> or 3 bucks at a kitchen supply place. Makes life easy and you won't
> need to spray or fool with plastic wrap.

Or, if you still have your KitchenAid, you can use the stainless-steel
bowl that came with it.

Keeping it simple,

Dicky

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

On Sep 3, 3:57 pm, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

> With the KitchenAid, the gluten is ready when the gas arrives. Towards
> the end, conditions concomitant to acidification start to rot the gluten,
> so that's when we stick it into the oven, before too many of the gas
> bubbles have fizzled.

You're a better baker than I am. I can never get the bread to taste
good on short notice. And I cannot get my KA to knead worth a sh*t
anymore. I wore it out. I keep it around for milling grain and hiding
the burn mark on the counter.

> No disrespect, but my little ol' Casio works pretty good, too.
> Or pencil arithmetic. Or good guess work. Or bygosh and bygolly.

The pencil's OK, but Sam's spreadsheet is often easier to find. Bygosh
and Bygolly work great when the scale battery's dead (as mine is at
the moment).

> Or, if you still have your KitchenAid, you can use the stainless-steel
> bowl that came with it.

That's silly, then you need another KA bowl. They're not cheap and the
new ones are cheezy. Somehow Maytag has engineered about half of the
metal away...

An aside... I took one of my sons to a culinary school the other day.
The head knocker laughed when the subject of KitchenAid mixers came
up. I noticed every student work station was equipped with that nifty
little Hobart 3-speed. I didn't mention Mike's video...

> Keeping it simple,

Ah well... I noticed you upgraded to a very sweet digital
camera... :-)

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

"Will" > wrote in message ups.com...
> I cannot get my KA to knead worth a sh*t anymore.
> I wore it out.

Should be possible to say why it won't knead. KAs are
simple devices, and repairable.

> I keep it around for milling grain and hiding
> the burn mark on the counter.

If it mills, it should knead. Well, unless something is stripped. Maybe
it's the little strippable black nylon pinion, which is made to strip before
less replacable parts strip ($10 approximately).

> > Or, if you still have your KitchenAid, you can use the stainless-steel
> > bowl that came with it.

> That's silly, then you need another KA bowl.

Just leave the dough in the same one. You are not going to ferment
and knead at the same time.

If you have a good old KA mixer, you should keep it up to snuff. It
is your duty as a good person.

--
Dicky

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

On Sep 3, 7:19 pm, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

> Should be possible to say why it won't knead. KAs are
> simple devices, and repairable.

You would think so. I took it apart not too long ago, And could not
find the noise problem. Talking about my first one, bought in 1985. It
is a Hobart unit and has given great service. My second one, circa
1996, has more advertised watts and is bigger, but obviously less
powerful, has been retired to the cellar. It is a P.O.S.. I will
eventually go to a small appliance repairman to service the original
Hobart unit, but not go to KitchenAid. The old one mills fine, mixes
dough OK, though kneading is tenuous. So I am big on S&F's: a) they
work and b) they don't kill old (but venerated) machines.

> If it mills, it should knead. Well, unless something is stripped. Maybe
> it's the little strippable black nylon pinion, which is made to strip before
> less replacable parts strip ($10 approximately).

I don't remember seeing this part though I was looking for it when I
tore the machine down.

> Just leave the dough in the same one. You are not going to ferment
> and knead at the same time.

No, but I'll be short bowl-wise and I have three bowls... two of which
are old and very substantial, one is newer and sucks. We use them for
everything: soak grain, make sausage, the teenage chef in the house
has projects, etc... The $3 plastic dough buckets have been a
godsend.

> If you have a good old KA mixer, you should keep it up to snuff. It
> is your duty as a good person.

Indeed and I love the old beast. I wouldn't (even in its dotage) trade
it for a new one. It would embarrass me to see the words "Artisan"
stamped somewhere. I'd feel like a Williams-Sonoma do-bee.

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

Thomas C. wrote:
> Okay, I will try the ogranic flour starter approach again and try it for a
> week (7 days instead of 4) and see what happens.
>
I will also make a few suggestions....
1. Pick one set of instructions.
2. Read them.
3. Follow them.
4. If you have problems, give the author of the instructions the
courtesy of the first chance to help you resolve the problems. Both
Samartha and I are usually quite good about answering emails.

Mike


--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

Thomas C. wrote:
>
> On a side note: When you've got the starter (organic rye and/or wheat flour
> based) started and it rises and collapses nicely, can you swith to AP flour
> to continue feeding it?
>
Collapsing is not necessary. Rising is necessary.

To quote one of the web pages you claim to have read, " At this point,
you can switch to white flour if you prefer. You will need to continue
to feed your starter every 8 to 12 hours to encourage the growth of the
micro-organisms. Again, discard half the starter each time you feed the
starter and then add 1/4 cup water and 3/8 cup of flour.You should
double the size of the starter with each feeding."

Mike
--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
At a quiz
Pa ain't
No whiz
But he knows how
To keep Ma his
Burma-Shave

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

Thomas C. wrote:
> I should have been more precise about the dough hook. It's a spiral dough
> hook, rather than the C-shaped one (if you've looked at kitchenaid mixers).
> I have mixed feelings about it (it seems to work well with the recipes in
> the mixer manual, but not ones I get from the internet) and I'm thinking
> about getting a C-shaped one when I have more free cash and see how it
> compares. The dough when first made is an extremely sticky dough that just
> seems to sit in the bowl (like batter), while a small tornado like piece of
> dough just rises up onto the dough hook, falls over from it's own weight,
> get's pressed down by the hook and then repeats. It never balls up onto the
> dough hook. I used a dough hydration of 68% on Samartha's calculator.
> Perhaps that is too high?
>
>
When the dough climbs up the hook of a KA mixer, that indicates the
dough is wetter than the mixer, or KA, would like it to be. This is a
processing issue, not a baking issue.

Normally, I consider 68% hydration to be fairly dry. Evidently the
mixer does not agree.

I would suggest that you are thrashing about. You have used 3 different
techniques to start a starter (and settled on the one that will never
create a sourdough starter), you are getting recipes from all over the
net (exaggeration for effect), and you are having trouble with your
mixer and are ready to spend more money on it.

My suggestion is to sit down, have a beer and decompress. It's just
bread, it'll forgive you.

I have the feeling that you are a beginning baker. And that you are
also a sourdough beginner. And trying to create your own starter is
only adding to your confusion.

So.... once you've decompressed a bit, send of for Carl's 1847 Oregon
Trail Starter. It's an excellent starter and it is free, but I always
suggest people put a buck or five into the envelope to help them cover
their expenses. Look at http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/ for more
information.

While you are waiting for your starter to arrive, and it sometimes takes
a while, put the mixer aside and make some breads by hand. This will
help you learn how dough should feel and how it feels as it develops.
I'd suggest the Painless Introduction to Baking at my web site. Its at
http://www.sourdoughhome.com/bakingintro.html and I've gotten lots of
appreciative emails about it.

As you go through that, you might select a single sourdough guru. That
could be one of the web sites you've visited, or a book. And I would
stop asking questions in newsgroups - you've been lucky in that you've
gotten good advice so far. What I see happen is that someone asks a
question about something they saw on the net and get a load of, "Oh,
that won't work, you need to do this instead" replies from people who
have never seen the web page in question. One guru until you have more
understanding is a good thing. Even if you wind up rejecting the guru
in a few weeks or months.

Hth,
Mike



--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
Is a female lawyer without her briefs a soliciter?

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

On 3 Sep 2007, at 15:54, Randall Nortman wrote:

> This is not the right attitude for this hobby.

Hobby, I don't know about you Randall but when I make bread I intend
eating it. Do you display the bread and varnish it?

If enjoying doing it makes it a hobby then I guess you could call a
few other things a hobby. I suppose you could me a result of a hobby
activity. I'm just having a hobby cup of coffee preceded by my hobby
corn flakes. I love what they look like when I poor on the milk. Such
a great hobby.

Oh don't let my mum hear you call frying steak a hobby though. She'll
probably hit you with the frying pan.

Jim

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

Hi Thomas,

it's better throw half or a third away and feed equal portions. Think
in terms of proportion and it will make sense. Also remember it could
take as long as a week (but at this time of year while it's warm
around the four to five is more expected) so imagine the proportions
after that long not throwing any away, if that's what you meant.
Probably best also after the second day to start feeding twice a day
if you can, you're likely to get nasty bacteria too so feeding twice
a day with dilute them better, they won't grow as well as your
sourdough bacteria and yeasts. Equal portions twice a day is a nine
fold increase.

Jim

On 3 Sep 2007, at 18:34, Thomas C. wrote:

> I was feeding ever 24 hours. Started with 50g flour/50g water,
> after 24
> hours added 50g flour/50g starter, after 24 hours added 100g flour/
> 100g
> water, etc.

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

On 3 Sep 2007, at 18:47, Thomas C. wrote:

> The additional flour really helped
> cut down the stickyness to just a tackyness that would stick to
> your hands
> if you held it too long.


With a stretch and fold technique you'll get used to handling wet
doughs, which make nicer bread, in my opinion. Don't worry about all
this primary, secondary and gluten formation. All that takes care of
itself if you do the right things.

Jim

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

On 4 Sep 2007, at 04:38, Mike Avery wrote:

> One guru until you have more
> understanding is a good thing. Even if you wind up rejecting the guru
> in a few weeks or months.
>
> Hth,
> Mike
>


I couldn't agree more. That's good advice for any walk of life. When
looking for a teacher you should find out what there contemporaries
and students think. I don't claim to be contemporary and not his
student but you won't go wrong with Mike.

Jim

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

On Sep 3, 10:38 pm, Mike Avery > wrote:

> put the mixer aside and make some breads by hand.

This is the hardest advice to follow... mostly because you've got this
big machine in front of you and you bought it because you believed the
baking narrative that sells it. But, Mike is right here, that machine
takes you in the wrong direction. By all means, use it to mix your
material, recover some of the investment, but once the mixing's
done... do what Randall suggests, let the dough sit an hour. Then put
your hands on it.

> As you go through that, you might select a single sourdough guru.

Perhaps this is good advice. My advice is usually "don't wing it". Get
a scale and use it, get a dough thermometer, get an oven rack
thermometer, use them. Build a simple proofing box to control the
temperature...

Great bread happens when you pay attention to the particulars. The
dough doesn't care whether you read Mike or Samartha or the rest of us
here, it cares whether the proof temperature is 78 F., it cares
whether the oven is really at 450 F., (the oven calibration is always
off), and it cares whether the starter ratio is x or y and whether the
starter was active or sluggish. Rather than select a guru, I'd select
two or three specific breads (recipes/formulae call them what you
will) and I'd work them relentlessly, gathering all the advice
available. But I'd select a specific bread project, not a specific
teacher. That way the process, not a narrative, will inform you.

> And I would stop asking questions in newsgroups

Except that very often, newsgroups have good information. This
newsgroup in particular has good information. There are a dozen
posters here who make bread several times a week and have been doing
so for many years. There are people here who put best selling authors
to shame.

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

On 4 Sep 2007, at 14:48, Will wrote:

> Great bread happens when you pay attention to the particulars. The
> dough doesn't care whether you read Mike or Samartha or the rest of us
> here, it cares whether the proof temperature is 78 F., it cares
> whether the oven is really at 450 F., (the oven calibration is always
> off), and it cares whether the starter ratio is x or y and whether the
> starter was active or sluggish. Rather than select a guru, I'd select
> two or three specific breads (recipes/formulae call them what you
> will) and I'd work them relentlessly, gathering all the advice
> available. But I'd select a specific bread project, not a specific
> teacher. That way the process, not a narrative, will inform you.

Sounds like your setting yourself up as the guru Will, : -)

Jim

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

Jim wrote:
> Hi Thomas,
>
> it's better throw half or a third away and feed equal portions. Think
> in terms of proportion and it will make sense. Also remember it could
> take as long as a week (but at this time of year while it's warm
> around the four to five is more expected) so imagine the proportions
> after that long not throwing any away, if that's what you meant.
> Probably best also after the second day to start feeding twice a day
> if you can, you're likely to get nasty bacteria too so feeding twice
> a day with dilute them better,
Not sure where you get this from. They (nasty b) grow because the
environment fits them i. e. non-sour.

If you dilute, you dilute sourness as well and that does what for the
nasties? Let them grow more.

As I said in an earlier post, I consider the throw away method as
counterproductive since with throwing away, also the desired
organisms initially present in very small number get reduced in numbers
as well.

I got some feedback yesterday on the method I describe on my web site
(http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html) which works just fine
without throwing anything away:
> I came upon your website sourdough quite by chance. As I have had
> a couple of starters, used them and then had them fail, for whatever
> reason, I decided to try yours. Went out and bought some rye grain,
> and also some hard Canadian wheat, and I must tell you, that on the
> second feeding, it more than doubled, held up for some time and then
> collapsed just as your instructions said it would. I have fed it
> again, and it is now in the process of doubling once more, with loads
> of bubbles, and a great sour smell. We will try a sourdough with some
> of the starter tomorrow.
--

Jim wrote some mo
> they won't grow as well as your
> sourdough bacteria and yeasts.
That's incorrect. They grow very well initially because they are higher
in numbers and the environment fits them.

> Equal portions twice a day is a nine
> fold increase.
>
>
How so? 50 g flour in starter + 2 x 50 g flour (equal portions) in
feedings per 24 hours is a three-fold increase in flour.

Perhaps you mean multiplying by equal portions, like doubling?

50 g initially, doubling is 100 g, doubling again is 200 g, 200 - 50 is
150 g = net increase, 150 / 50 is a three-fold (300 %) increase as well.

Where do you get a 9-fold increase with twice a day?

Jim
> On 3 Sep 2007, at 18:34, Thomas C. wrote:
>
>
>> I was feeding ever 24 hours. Started with 50g flour/50g water,
>> after 24
>> hours added 50g flour/50g starter, after 24 hours added 100g flour/
>> 100g
>> water, etc.
>>
That does not sound too bad if he keeps feeding constant 100 g amounts,
he may end up with something like 1000 g starter instead. That's workable.


Samartha

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

"Sam" > wrote in message news:mailman.14.1188920209.25616.rec.food.sourdoug ...
> ... If you dilute, you dilute sourness as well and that does what for the
> nasties? Let them grow more. ...

Nasties? Somewhere buried here, I think, is the endemic samarthistic
engram that what's good for rye is good for everybody.

A well-maintained white (wheat) flour started never gets very acid at
all, and that's just fine because yeast activity (and gas generation) is
inhibited by acidic conditions*. It is getting progressively more difficult
to rationally broach that subject as more and more new-generation
noobies arrive on the scene with their loosely-tethered brains.

--
Dicky

__________________________________________________ _
* whereas rye dough and rye preferments need to be kept acidic in
order to prevent their self destruction.

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

On Sep 4, 9:27 am, Jim > wrote:

> Sounds like your setting yourself up as the guru Will, : -)

Whoops... can't have that. I am terrible at saying things like "bread
is bliss" and keeping a straight face.

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

Dick Adams wrote:
> "Sam" > wrote in message news:mailman.14.1188920209.25616.rec.food.sourdoug ...
>
>> ... If you dilute, you dilute sourness as well and that does what for the
>> nasties? Let them grow more. ...
>>
>
> Nasties? Somewhere buried here, I think, is the endemic samarthistic
> engram that what's good for rye is good for everybody.
>
> A well-maintained white (wheat) flour started never gets very acid at
> all,
Assuming you mean starter (started being a typo) and with that you refer
to an established starter (well maintained) - right?

Talk was here about growing a new starter from flour and water - at
least that's what I gathered.. maybe I am wrong, should get some coffee
first.

As for the non-sour sourdough starter baloney revival, I'd suggest you
get yourself a pH meter (loaned?) and measure if your taste buds won't
do it. That would eliminate the topic though and may not be desirable.

What else is there? Ah - the rye good for everybody... why not? Better
than white sissy bread anytime.
And - the "well-maintained", that's a really good definition for
describing what one does: I took a cup of well-maintained starter and my
bread jumps out of the oven - what is wrong? Answer: Horrible starter
and scary bread.

We should declare all starters as "well-maintained" from now on and look
for better things to play with. If the bread does not satisfy our
partners, it may be time to change the strategy because it cannot be
blamed on the starter any more. This could revive even older relationships.
> and that's just fine because yeast activity (and gas generation) is
> inhibited by acidic conditions*. It is getting progressively more difficult
> to rationally broach that subject as more and more new-generation
> noobies arrive on the scene with their loosely-tethered brains.
>
>
You got that right!
gotta run,

Sam

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

Sam wrote:
> What else is there? Ah - the rye good for everybody...
I found the link:

http://rye.vtt.fi/

(changed, ryeheart.com is now about human heart)

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

Will wrote:
> On Sep 3, 10:38 pm, Mike Avery > wrote:
>
>
>> And I would stop asking questions in newsgroups
>>
>
> Except that very often, newsgroups have good information. This
> newsgroup in particular has good information. There are a dozen
> posters here who make bread several times a week and have been doing
> so for many years. There are people here who put best selling authors
> to shame.
>
The issue, for a sourdough beginner, is who to listen to. Dick says
white flour and the holy four ingredients only. Samartha is big on
rye. I'm more catholic than either.

Some people suggest discarding starter before refreshing it. Others don't.

ALL the techniques work. However, until you have a better idea of how
and why than a beginner has, the babel of voices is enough to drive one
mad, and picking this technique from one person and that from another
really doesn't work all that often. Yes, this newsgroup IS a valuable
resource, and some of the posters are quite amazing. However, for a
newcomer, focusing on a single voice is a good success strategy in the
early days of learning.

Once one has better understanding, then its time to dive into the
newsgroups and go in a hundred different directions.

Mike


--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
Intuition (n): an uncanny sixth sense which tells people
that they are right, whether they are or not.

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

On 4 Sep 2007, at 16:36, Sam wrote:

> Not sure where you get this from. They (nasty b) grow because the
> environment fits them i. e. non-sour.


Do the math.

Jim

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

Jim wrote:
> On 4 Sep 2007, at 16:36, Sam wrote:
>
>
>> Not sure where you get this from. They (nasty b) grow because the
>> environment fits them i. e. non-sour.
>>
>
>
> Do the math.
>
>
What math? Is it probably yours where you got 9 x by adding twice?

Not sure what you are smoking - probably causes neuron malfunction.

S.

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message
news:mailman.6.1188876850.33515.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
> Thomas C. wrote:
>> I should have been more precise about the dough hook. It's a spiral
>> dough hook, rather than the C-shaped one (if you've looked at kitchenaid
>> mixers). I have mixed feelings about it (it seems to work well with the
>> recipes in the mixer manual, but not ones I get from the internet) and
>> I'm thinking about getting a C-shaped one when I have more free cash and
>> see how it compares. The dough when first made is an extremely sticky
>> dough that just seems to sit in the bowl (like batter), while a small
>> tornado like piece of dough just rises up onto the dough hook, falls over
>> from it's own weight, get's pressed down by the hook and then repeats.
>> It never balls up onto the dough hook. I used a dough hydration of 68%
>> on Samartha's calculator. Perhaps that is too high?
>>
>>
> When the dough climbs up the hook of a KA mixer, that indicates the dough
> is wetter than the mixer, or KA, would like it to be. This is a
> processing issue, not a baking issue.
>
> Normally, I consider 68% hydration to be fairly dry. Evidently the mixer
> does not agree.
>
> I would suggest that you are thrashing about. You have used 3 different
> techniques to start a starter (and settled on the one that will never
> create a sourdough starter), you are getting recipes from all over the net
> (exaggeration for effect), and you are having trouble with your mixer and
> are ready to spend more money on it.

I've looked over samartha's, yours and one other that said use the yeast you
can get from the supermarket. I wouldn't say I'm thrashing about as I've
made "sourdough" a few times now and haven't had any real disaster. Now I'm
looking to refine my bread and it's flavor.

>
> My suggestion is to sit down, have a beer and decompress. It's just
> bread, it'll forgive you.
>
> I have the feeling that you are a beginning baker. And that you are also
> a sourdough beginner. And trying to create your own starter is only
> adding to your confusion.
>
> So.... once you've decompressed a bit, send of for Carl's 1847 Oregon
> Trail Starter. It's an excellent starter and it is free, but I always
> suggest people put a buck or five into the envelope to help them cover
> their expenses. Look at http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/ for more
> information.

Honestly, I'd rather make my own before having to resort to someone else's.
It's more of the principle that I can accomplish a starter just as anyone
else has.

>
> While you are waiting for your starter to arrive, and it sometimes takes a
> while, put the mixer aside and make some breads by hand. This will help
> you learn how dough should feel and how it feels as it develops. I'd
> suggest the Painless Introduction to Baking at my web site. Its at
> http://www.sourdoughhome.com/bakingintro.html and I've gotten lots of
> appreciative emails about it.

I only use the mixer to mix up the flour, water and starter (I haven't been
impressed with it's touted kneading ability). I knead after the primary
fermentation since that's when the gluten structure makes the dough come
together and it makes it remotely workable for me instead of a gooey sticky
mess.

>
> As you go through that, you might select a single sourdough guru. That
> could be one of the web sites you've visited, or a book. And I would stop
> asking questions in newsgroups - you've been lucky in that you've gotten
> good advice so far. What I see happen is that someone asks a question
> about something they saw on the net and get a load of, "Oh, that won't
> work, you need to do this instead" replies from people who have never seen
> the web page in question. One guru until you have more understanding is a
> good thing. Even if you wind up rejecting the guru in a few weeks or
> months.

I've been reading the group messages for quite a while. I extract the good
details and tend to ignore the fluff.

>
> Hth,
> Mike
>
>
>
> --
> Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
> part time baker ICQ 16241692
> networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
> wordsmith
> A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
> Is a female lawyer without her briefs a soliciter?

-Thomas C.

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

"Will" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Sep 3, 10:38 pm, Mike Avery > wrote:
>
>> put the mixer aside and make some breads by hand.
>
> This is the hardest advice to follow... mostly because you've got this
> big machine in front of you and you bought it because you believed the
> baking narrative that sells it. But, Mike is right here, that machine
> takes you in the wrong direction. By all means, use it to mix your
> material, recover some of the investment, but once the mixing's
> done... do what Randall suggests, let the dough sit an hour. Then put
> your hands on it.

That's what I have been doing.

>
>> As you go through that, you might select a single sourdough guru.
>
> Perhaps this is good advice. My advice is usually "don't wing it". Get
> a scale and use it, get a dough thermometer, get an oven rack
> thermometer, use them. Build a simple proofing box to control the
> temperature...

I used a scale to measure the flour, water, starter and salt. Although I do
subject my dough to uncontrolled ambient temperature, but only if it's not
above 75 F otherwise I'll use the oven and the viewing light. Eventually I
may build and use a proofing box. I think one device I'd like is a pH meter
for dough.

>
> Great bread happens when you pay attention to the particulars. The
> dough doesn't care whether you read Mike or Samartha or the rest of us
> here, it cares whether the proof temperature is 78 F., it cares
> whether the oven is really at 450 F., (the oven calibration is always
> off), and it cares whether the starter ratio is x or y and whether the
> starter was active or sluggish. Rather than select a guru, I'd select
> two or three specific breads (recipes/formulae call them what you
> will) and I'd work them relentlessly, gathering all the advice
> available. But I'd select a specific bread project, not a specific
> teacher. That way the process, not a narrative, will inform you.

That's the approach I took with this batch of bread.

>
>> And I would stop asking questions in newsgroups
>
> Except that very often, newsgroups have good information. This
> newsgroup in particular has good information. There are a dozen
> posters here who make bread several times a week and have been doing
> so for many years. There are people here who put best selling authors
> to shame.

I could never stop asking questions in the newsgroup. It's been wonderful
help.

>
>
>

Thomas C.

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

that should have been, "only if it IS above 75 F"

"Thomas C." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Will" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> On Sep 3, 10:38 pm, Mike Avery > wrote:
>>
>>> put the mixer aside and make some breads by hand.
>>
>> This is the hardest advice to follow... mostly because you've got this
>> big machine in front of you and you bought it because you believed the
>> baking narrative that sells it. But, Mike is right here, that machine
>> takes you in the wrong direction. By all means, use it to mix your
>> material, recover some of the investment, but once the mixing's
>> done... do what Randall suggests, let the dough sit an hour. Then put
>> your hands on it.
>
> That's what I have been doing.
>
>>
>>> As you go through that, you might select a single sourdough guru.
>>
>> Perhaps this is good advice. My advice is usually "don't wing it". Get
>> a scale and use it, get a dough thermometer, get an oven rack
>> thermometer, use them. Build a simple proofing box to control the
>> temperature...
>
> I used a scale to measure the flour, water, starter and salt. Although I
> do subject my dough to uncontrolled ambient temperature, but only if it's
> not above 75 F otherwise I'll use the oven and the viewing light.
> Eventually I may build and use a proofing box. I think one device I'd
> like is a pH meter for dough.
>
>>
>> Great bread happens when you pay attention to the particulars. The
>> dough doesn't care whether you read Mike or Samartha or the rest of us
>> here, it cares whether the proof temperature is 78 F., it cares
>> whether the oven is really at 450 F., (the oven calibration is always
>> off), and it cares whether the starter ratio is x or y and whether the
>> starter was active or sluggish. Rather than select a guru, I'd select
>> two or three specific breads (recipes/formulae call them what you
>> will) and I'd work them relentlessly, gathering all the advice
>> available. But I'd select a specific bread project, not a specific
>> teacher. That way the process, not a narrative, will inform you.
>
> That's the approach I took with this batch of bread.
>
>>
>>> And I would stop asking questions in newsgroups
>>
>> Except that very often, newsgroups have good information. This
>> newsgroup in particular has good information. There are a dozen
>> posters here who make bread several times a week and have been doing
>> so for many years. There are people here who put best selling authors
>> to shame.
>
> I could never stop asking questions in the newsgroup. It's been wonderful
> help.
>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Thomas C.
>

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

On 4 Sep, 17:48, Sam > wrote:
> Dick Adams wrote:
> > "Sam" > wrote in messagenews:mailman.14.1188920209.25616.rec.food.s ...
>
> >> ... If you dilute, you dilute sourness as well and that does what for the
> >> nasties? Let them grow more. ...
>
> > Nasties? Somewhere buried here, I think, is the endemic samarthistic
> > engram that what's good for rye is good for everybody.
>
> > A well-maintained white (wheat) flour started never gets very acid at
> > all,
>
> Assuming you mean starter (started being a typo) and with that you refer
> to an established starter (well maintained) - right?
>
> Talk was here about growing a new starter from flour and water - at
> least that's what I gathered.. maybe I am wrong, should get some coffee
> first.
....
> You got that right!
> gotta run,
>
> Sam

Samartha you're getting worse, this post is neither well thought out,
funny nor smart, your lame attempt at 'getting one up' is really
pathetic. You really do clutch at straws. If you can't be either witty
or smart don't bother.

Jim

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

On 5 Sep, 05:15, "Thomas C." > wrote:
> "Will" > wrote in message
....
> I used a scale to measure the flour, water, starter and salt. Although I do
> subject my dough to uncontrolled ambient temperature, but only if it's not
> above 75 F otherwise I'll use the oven and the viewing light. Eventually I
> may build and use a proofing box. I think one device I'd like is a pH meter
> for dough.
....
> Thomas C.

Oh Good grief Thomas, you really have been sucked in by Samartha. I am
a technophile at heart but the last thing I thought I'd need in the
kitchen to make bread was a pH meter; to make, bottle and sell vinegar
yes okay. Fair enough if you subscribe to that Sour dough = sour bread
notion and want to taste acid in your bread then cool. It's okay, a pH
meter though? Do you not have taste buds, after all isn't that all
that matters? If you are really intent on testing pH with some device
get some cheap litmus paper of some kind. Then see how you go on from
there.

Jim

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

On Sep 4, 11:15 pm, "Thomas C." > wrote:

> I used a scale to measure the flour, water, starter and salt. Although I do
> subject my dough to uncontrolled ambient temperature, but only if it's not
> above 75 F otherwise I'll use the oven and the viewing light. Eventually I
> may build and use a proofing box. I think one device I'd like is a pH meter
> for dough.

Between Samartha's calculator, a simple flour/water/starter/salt
materials plan and good scaling, I'd agree you're not thrashing
about :-)...

Dough handling is tricky business and most writers assume the issue
away via mechanical mixing and kneading. Few of them detail the time-
gluten relationship. Randall's 24 hour cycle is very much like mine. A
little mixing, into the dough bucket and forget about it until the
next day. Works wonders... even with very wet dough.
The Stretch and Folds, especially the way that Mike presents it, are a
hugely under-rated step in great bread. The gluten really needs to be
organized, laminated if you will, to set up a good final structure,
one that will react well to oven heat... not blow out, not spring
lopsided, etc... A KA won't do that...

The proof box is easy. You invert a Rubbermaid storage container over
a heat pad. It's not necessary at this time of year, but in winter, is
very helpful. And it's really helpful if you need to drive a final
proof on schedule. You might ask Samartha about the pH equipment, he
obviously has it but I don't think counting hydrogen ions is part of
his regular routine these days. I also think you get into interesting
conundrums once there. For example, a 4.2 pH in a 68% hydration dough
is not the same number of free hydrogen units as 4.2 at 65% hydration.
I am sure he could point you to appropriate literature (and I am
equally sure it is written in German).

Good luck, keep posting.

I Need Help Increasing My Sourdough's Flavor
 

"TG" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On 5 Sep, 05:15, "Thomas C." > wrote:
>> "Will" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I used a scale to measure the flour, water, starter and salt. Although I
>> do
>> subject my dough to uncontrolled ambient temperature, but only if it's
>> not
>> above 75 F otherwise I'll use the oven and the viewing light. Eventually
>> I
>> may build and use a proofing box. I think one device I'd like is a pH
>> meter
>> for dough.
> ...
>> Thomas C.
>
> Oh Good grief Thomas, you really have been sucked in by Samartha. I am
> a technophile at heart but the last thing I thought I'd need in the
> kitchen to make bread was a pH meter; to make, bottle and sell vinegar
> yes okay. Fair enough if you subscribe to that Sour dough = sour bread
> notion and want to taste acid in your bread then cool. It's okay, a pH
> meter though? Do you not have taste buds, after all isn't that all
> that matters? If you are really intent on testing pH with some device
> get some cheap litmus paper of some kind. Then see how you go on from
> there.
>
> Jim
>

That is exactly what I want Jim. Sour sourdough.

-Thomas C.