.............That you have probably made yourselves.

I posted, some time ago, about the tendency of sourdough (in my inexpert hands)
to be more liquid than dough made with commercial yeast but all other
ingredients identical (or as close as I can make it). Not a problem, as I said
at the time, just interesting (or not, as the case may be<g>).

The observation referred to in the subject line is that the sourdough isn't
really more liquid, it's just that elasticity develops as well as or better
than with commercial yeast but the sourdough relaxes more after the mechanical
input that produced the elasticity.

I noticed this behaviour when I replaced the commercial yeast starter with
sourdough in my standard Ciabatta recipe ( the bread is a hybrid
sourdough/commercial bread so I won't post the recipe here, it's on
alt.bread.recipes which seems a more appropriate forum).

The results were the best Ciabatta I've made but what I found most interesting
was the behaviour of the dough. The method involves 6 cycles of stretch and
fold and, when made with commercial yeast, the dough becomes more elastic with
each cycle, retains most of the added elasticity and becomes visibly higher and
less soft. The sourdough starter version mixed faster than the commercial and
tightened up more with each stretch BUT then relaxed almost completely. It
looked as if the stretch and fold had never taken place. The elasticity,
however, is not lost. As soon as the dough is stretched again the elasticity
returns. I proofed the dough as usual and the proofed loaves were much flatter
than their commercial counterparts but, when the proofed loaves were inverted,
stretched to Ciabatta shape and immediately baked, which is what I normally do,
the oven spring was remarkable and the finished loaves were as light, holey and
voluminous as their commercial counterparts.

So, what gives sourdough, even used as a starter only, the ability to relax
almost completely but still retain its elasticity in potential? It's as if the
sourdough gluten can store elasticity in some way. Which I don't find
impossible to contemplate. The mechanism is, however, beyond my abilities to
explain.

Lest you think this is all high-flown, fanciful nonsense, the pure commercial
bread has been made, at least once a week for the last year so I'm extremely
familiar with it's behaviour. The part-sourdough version was very different and
I've made it 3 times in the last week with identical (excellent) results. I
also baked the commercial version once in the same period and it behaved as
usual.

As with my previous postings, none of this is a complaint, just wondering if
anyone else has noticed this difference.

John

"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message
...
>
> ............That you have probably made yourselves.
>
> I posted, some time ago, about the tendency of sourdough (in my inexpert
hands)
> to be more liquid than dough made with commercial yeast but all other
> ingredients identical (or as close as I can make it). Not a problem, as I
said
> at the time, just interesting (or not, as the case may be<g>).
>
> The observation referred to in the subject line is that the sourdough
isn't
> really more liquid, it's just that elasticity develops as well as or
better
> than with commercial yeast but the sourdough relaxes more after the
mechanical
> input that produced the elasticity.
>
> I noticed this behaviour when I replaced the commercial yeast starter with
> sourdough in my standard Ciabatta recipe ( the bread is a hybrid
> sourdough/commercial bread so I won't post the recipe here, it's on
> alt.bread.recipes which seems a more appropriate forum).
>
> The results were the best Ciabatta I've made but what I found most
interesting
> was the behaviour of the dough. The method involves 6 cycles of stretch
and
> fold and, when made with commercial yeast, the dough becomes more elastic
with
> each cycle, retains most of the added elasticity and becomes visibly
higher and
> less soft. The sourdough starter version mixed faster than the commercial
and
> tightened up more with each stretch BUT then relaxed almost completely. It
> looked as if the stretch and fold had never taken place. The elasticity,
> however, is not lost. As soon as the dough is stretched again the
elasticity
> returns. I proofed the dough as usual and the proofed loaves were much
flatter
> than their commercial counterparts but, when the proofed loaves were
inverted,
> stretched to Ciabatta shape and immediately baked, which is what I
normally do,
> the oven spring was remarkable and the finished loaves were as light,
holey and
> voluminous as their commercial counterparts.
>
> So, what gives sourdough, even used as a starter only, the ability to
relax
> almost completely but still retain its elasticity in potential? It's as if
the
> sourdough gluten can store elasticity in some way. Which I don't find
> impossible to contemplate. The mechanism is, however, beyond my abilities
to
> explain.
>
> Lest you think this is all high-flown, fanciful nonsense, the pure
commercial
> bread has been made, at least once a week for the last year so I'm
extremely
> familiar with it's behaviour. The part-sourdough version was very
different and
> I've made it 3 times in the last week with identical (excellent) results.
I
> also baked the commercial version once in the same period and it behaved
as
> usual.
>
> As with my previous postings, none of this is a complaint, just wondering
if
> anyone else has noticed this difference.
>
> John

I've noticed the same thing. Just today I put some sourdough to ferment for
makeup tomorrow morning. By the end of the day, it had risen imperceptibly
but had flattened itself out. I put 2 oz. less water than I usually for
this type of bread and the dough felt perfect when I finished mixing. It
had the same feel, elasticity and texture I'm used to. After several hours
of fermentation, however, it has changed noticeably.

Also I find my starter so gooey and sticky that I have a tough time scraping
it from the spatula when I want to incorporate it into my dough. It sticks
to the spatula like glue. It has the viscosity of a pancake batter but
certainly not the texture or behavior of it. To me sourdough (at least
mine) is softer, stickier and prone to "pool" while fermenting when compared
to commercially leavened dough.

However, I find that, when I make up the loaves, a little lateral squeeze
gets it growing upward rather than outward. I haven't had any problem
developing enough height in my sourdough loaves. I understand what you are
saying and have similar experiences. I'm a novice, though, and can't answer
your question. Sorry about that.

Fred
The Good Gourmet
http://www.thegoodgourmet.com

Fred wrote:
> I've noticed the same thing. Just today I put some sourdough to ferment for
> makeup tomorrow morning. By the end of the day, it had risen imperceptibly
> but had flattened itself out. I put 2 oz. less water than I usually for
> this type of bread and the dough felt perfect when I finished mixing. It
> had the same feel, elasticity and texture I'm used to. After several hours
> of fermentation, however, it has changed noticeably.

AFAIK, the sourdough fermentation produces not only carbon dioxide, but
also water and alcohol, which may account for this effect (which I've
noticed as well). FWIW, this happened to us even more when at one time
we augmented the poor rising capabilities of an incompletely freshened
starter with baker's yeast...

> Also I find my starter so gooey and sticky that I have a tough time scraping
> it from the spatula when I want to incorporate it into my dough. It sticks
> to the spatula like glue. It has the viscosity of a pancake batter but
> certainly not the texture or behavior of it. To me sourdough (at least
> mine) is softer, stickier and prone to "pool" while fermenting when compared
> to commercially leavened dough.

Are you sure you're using wheat? ;-) That gooey stickiness is very
pronounced in our rye/wheat and rye/spelt doughs. When preparing a more
or less pure wheat dough (from a rye starter, so there's a bit of rye
in there as well), that stickiness is hardly noticeable and quickly goes
away when kneading.

Greetings,
Gudy

pamnone (Wcsjohn) wrote in message >...
> ............That you have probably made yourselves.
>
> I posted, some time ago, about the tendency of sourdough (in my inexpert hands)
> to be more liquid than dough made with commercial yeast but all other
> ingredients identical (or as close as I can make it). Not a problem, as I said
> at the time, just interesting (or not, as the case may be<g>).
>
> The observation referred to in the subject line is that the sourdough isn't
> really more liquid, it's just that elasticity develops as well as or better
> than with commercial yeast but the sourdough relaxes more after the mechanical
> input that produced the elasticity.
>
> I noticed this behaviour when I replaced the commercial yeast starter with
> sourdough in my standard Ciabatta recipe ( the bread is a hybrid
> sourdough/commercial bread so I won't post the recipe here, it's on
> alt.bread.recipes which seems a more appropriate forum).
>
> The results were the best Ciabatta I've made but what I found most interesting
> was the behaviour of the dough. The method involves 6 cycles of stretch and
> fold and, when made with commercial yeast, the dough becomes more elastic with
> each cycle, retains most of the added elasticity and becomes visibly higher and
> less soft. The sourdough starter version mixed faster than the commercial and
> tightened up more with each stretch BUT then relaxed almost completely. It
> looked as if the stretch and fold had never taken place. The elasticity,
> however, is not lost. As soon as the dough is stretched again the elasticity
> returns. I proofed the dough as usual and the proofed loaves were much flatter
> than their commercial counterparts but, when the proofed loaves were inverted,
> stretched to Ciabatta shape and immediately baked, which is what I normally do,
> the oven spring was remarkable and the finished loaves were as light, holey and
> voluminous as their commercial counterparts.
> > So, what gives sourdough, even used as a starter only, the ability to relax
> almost completely but still retain its elasticity in potential? It's as if the
> sourdough gluten can store elasticity in some way. Which I don't find
> impossible to contemplate. The mechanism is, however, beyond my abilities to
> explain.
It is just the effect of the higher dough acidity on the sourdough on
the gluten and the flour pentosans( soluble/insoluble) due to fuller
hydration in the presence of the acid that it tends to gel.The lower
acidity makes the gluten relax due to the ionic effect and the
interchange in protein bonding pattern that leds to the cycle of
relaxation and strengtening.
Now as you stretch the dough you are extending the gluten fibrils
while at the same time providing more surface area for the acidity to
act on the pentosans that is bound by the gluten fibers.But that will
be recovered as the gelled pentosans tend to retract the gluten
fibrils to its original conformation.


However during the proofing stage the pH tends to rise gradually
strengthening the gluten then as the flour pentosans are fully gelled,
it tends allow the dough to rise upward instead of spreading.
Therefore you will notice the difference in dough behaviour pattern if
comapared to just baker's yeast risen dough.
You may ask why does the hybridized recipe of sourdough( sourdough
starter and bakers yeast behave the same). It is because in such dough
the acidity is lower than in 100% baker's yeast raised dough and the
same phenomenon I related happen.
However in just the baker's yeast risen dough the dough behavriour is
more of the manifestation of the gluten and less of the pentosans that
contribute to the dough strenghening and the notable difference in
dough handling quality.

> Lest you think this is all high-flown, fanciful nonsense, the pure commercial
> bread has been made, at least once a week for the last year so I'm extremely
> familiar with it's behaviour. The part-sourdough version was very different and
> I've made it 3 times in the last week with identical (excellent) results. I
> also baked the commercial version once in the same period and it behaved as
> usual.
>
> As with my previous postings, none of this is a complaint, just wondering if
> anyone else has noticed this difference.
>
> John]
You are a smart and keen baker John....
As you are sensitive to these changes; most of the bakers seldom
notice this and even take it for granted; or are already got used(
jaded) to the cyclic change of dough relaxation and toughening.
Roy

(Wcsjohn) wrote in message
>...
>> ............That you have probably made yourselves.
>>
>> I posted, some time ago, about the tendency of sourdough (in my inexpert
>hands)
>> to be more liquid than dough made with commercial yeast but all other
>> ingredients identical (or as close as I can make it). Not a problem, as I
>said
>> at the time, just interesting (or not, as the case may be<g>).
>>
>> The observation referred to in the subject line is that the sourdough isn't
>> really more liquid, it's just that elasticity develops as well as or better
>> than with commercial yeast but the sourdough relaxes more after the
>mechanical
>> input that produced the elasticity.
>>
>> I noticed this behaviour when I replaced the commercial yeast starter with
>> sourdough in my standard Ciabatta recipe ( the bread is a hybrid
>> sourdough/commercial bread so I won't post the recipe here, it's on
>> alt.bread.recipes which seems a more appropriate forum).
>>
>> The results were the best Ciabatta I've made but what I found most
>interesting
>> was the behaviour of the dough. The method involves 6 cycles of stretch
>and
>> fold and, when made with commercial yeast, the dough becomes more elastic
>with
>> each cycle, retains most of the added elasticity and becomes visibly higher
>and
>> less soft. The sourdough starter version mixed faster than the commercial
>and
>> tightened up more with each stretch BUT then relaxed almost completely. It
>> looked as if the stretch and fold had never taken place. The elasticity,
>> however, is not lost. As soon as the dough is stretched again the
>elasticity
>> returns. I proofed the dough as usual and the proofed loaves were much
>flatter
>> than their commercial counterparts but, when the proofed loaves were
>inverted,
>> stretched to Ciabatta shape and immediately baked, which is what I normally
>do,
>> the oven spring was remarkable and the finished loaves were as light, holey
>and
>> voluminous as their commercial counterparts.
>> > So, what gives sourdough, even used as a starter only, the ability to
>relax
>> almost completely but still retain its elasticity in potential? It's as if
>the
>> sourdough gluten can store elasticity in some way. Which I don't find
>> impossible to contemplate. The mechanism is, however, beyond my abilities
>to
>> explain.
>It is just the effect of the higher dough acidity on the sourdough on
>the gluten and the flour pentosans( soluble/insoluble) due to fuller
>hydration in the presence of the acid that it tends to gel.The lower
>acidity makes the gluten relax due to the ionic effect and the
>interchange in protein bonding pattern that leds to the cycle of
>relaxation and strengtening.
>Now as you stretch the dough you are extending the gluten fibrils
>while at the same time providing more surface area for the acidity to
>act on the pentosans that is bound by the gluten fibers.But that will
>be recovered as the gelled pentosans tend to retract the gluten
>fibrils to its original conformation.
>
>
>However during the proofing stage the pH tends to rise gradually
>strengthening the gluten then as the flour pentosans are fully gelled,
>it tends allow the dough to rise upward instead of spreading.
>Therefore you will notice the difference in dough behaviour pattern if
>comapared to just baker's yeast risen dough.
>You may ask why does the hybridized recipe of sourdough( sourdough
>starter and bakers yeast behave the same). It is because in such dough
>the acidity is lower than in 100% baker's yeast raised dough and the
>same phenomenon I related happen.
>However in just the baker's yeast risen dough the dough behavriour is
>more of the manifestation of the gluten and less of the pentosans that
>contribute to the dough strenghening and the notable difference in
>dough handling quality.
>
>> Lest you think this is all high-flown, fanciful nonsense, the pure
>commercial
>> bread has been made, at least once a week for the last year so I'm
>extremely
>> familiar with it's behaviour. The part-sourdough version was very different
>and
>> I've made it 3 times in the last week with identical (excellent) results. I
>> also baked the commercial version once in the same period and it behaved as
>> usual.
>>
>> As with my previous postings, none of this is a complaint, just wondering
>if
>> anyone else has noticed this difference.
>>
>> John]
>You are a smart and keen baker John....
>As you are sensitive to these changes; most of the bakers seldom
>notice this and even take it for granted; or are already got used(
>jaded) to the cyclic change of dough relaxation and toughening.
>Roy
>
Thank you Roy,

I had to look up a few new words<g> but it makes sense.

Jon

This sounds very interesting. Could someone explain to me the stretch and
fold technique? I have seen it mentioned in other places and would like to
know when it is supposed to be applied. I understand what it is, I would
just like to know when to do it and what the positive effects are supposed
to be.

Dave

>
> Are you sure you're using wheat? ;-) That gooey stickiness is very
> pronounced in our rye/wheat and rye/spelt doughs. When preparing a more
> or less pure wheat dough (from a rye starter, so there's a bit of rye
> in there as well), that stickiness is hardly noticeable and quickly goes
> away when kneading.
>
> Greetings,
> Gudy

Yes. I used 1/2 cup or so of rye flour to get the starter started about a
month ago. I've used nothing but a standard commercial high gluten wheat
flour since. Yes, I agree the stickiness goes away when it is incorporated
into a dough but it is very, very sticky before that. Now consider that my
starter has the viscosity of pancake batter. I've never made a pancake
batter with yeast and then fermented it for a long time so it's possible any
long fermented yeasty batter will behave this way. But sticky it certainly
is. When I mix a dough, I start with the dry ingredients and water and then
add the starter after it has mixed a little. I can barely get the starter
off the spatula. It is like glue. I've worked out some bread formulas that
compensate for the additional hydration in the starter and I can get a very
normal (not even a little sticky) dough from it without any more fussing.
I'm not complaining about my starter. It seems to produce good bread. I'm
just adding my observations to those of the original poster. Good baking.

Fred
The Good Gourmet
http://www.thegoodgourmet.com

>
>This sounds very interesting. Could someone explain to me the stretch and
>fold technique? I have seen it mentioned in other places and would like to
>know when it is supposed to be applied. I understand what it is, I would
>just like to know when to do it and what the positive effects are supposed
>to be.
>
>Dave
>
The s&f technique is applicable to just about anything other than very stiff
dough but it's primary application is high hydration breads the standard
example of which is Ciabatta.

The technique is normally applied after mixing.

The benefits, actual not "supposed", are that the elasticity that gives a good
open crumb can be generated in doughs that are to sloppy to knead in the usual
sense of the word. And any dough that seems a little inelastic can benefit from
one or more s&f cycles. The ratio of gluten development to effort is
extraordinarily high.

After s&f the dough usually goes straight into bulk fermentation.

It really is a technique of which all breadbakers, sourdough or commercial
yeast, should be aware and it is the foundation stone of the excellent big
holed, "rustic" breads I make, most of the time.

John

Can you explain the technique please?


--
Ron Anderson
A1 Sewing Machine
PO Box 60
Sand Lake, NY 12153
518-469-5133
http://www.a1sewingmachine.com
"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >This sounds very interesting. Could someone explain to me the stretch
and
> >fold technique? I have seen it mentioned in other places and would like
to
> >know when it is supposed to be applied. I understand what it is, I would
> >just like to know when to do it and what the positive effects are
supposed
> >to be.
> >
> >Dave
> >
> The s&f technique is applicable to just about anything other than very
stiff
> dough but it's primary application is high hydration breads the standard
> example of which is Ciabatta.
>
> The technique is normally applied after mixing.
>
> The benefits, actual not "supposed", are that the elasticity that gives a
good
> open crumb can be generated in doughs that are to sloppy to knead in the
usual
> sense of the word. And any dough that seems a little inelastic can benefit
from
> one or more s&f cycles. The ratio of gluten development to effort is
> extraordinarily high.
>
> After s&f the dough usually goes straight into bulk fermentation.
>
> It really is a technique of which all breadbakers, sourdough or commercial
> yeast, should be aware and it is the foundation stone of the excellent big
> holed, "rustic" breads I make, most of the time.
>
> John
>

>
>Can you explain the technique please?
>

It's very simple. Let's assume you have a sloppy (ca 80% hydration) dough, just
mixed.

Tip the dough onto a well floured counter and, with your bench knife, roll the
dough in the flour til it no longer sticks . Form into a rough square. Flour
your hands and pull the dough sideways until 3 times was wide as deep. Fold the
dough in 3, like a letter to make a rough square again. Rotate the dough, in
the plane of the counter by 90 degrees. Leave to relax for 10 minutes and
repeat as necessary.

The dough becomes more elastic and easier to handle with each stretch.

John

Thank you much. I will give it a try.


--
Ron Anderson
A1 Sewing Machine
PO Box 60
Sand Lake, NY 12153
518-469-5133
http://www.a1sewingmachine.com
"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >Can you explain the technique please?
> >
>
> It's very simple. Let's assume you have a sloppy (ca 80% hydration) dough,
just
> mixed.
>
> Tip the dough onto a well floured counter and, with your bench knife, roll
the
> dough in the flour til it no longer sticks . Form into a rough square.
Flour
> your hands and pull the dough sideways until 3 times was wide as deep.
Fold the
> dough in 3, like a letter to make a rough square again. Rotate the dough,
in
> the plane of the counter by 90 degrees. Leave to relax for 10 minutes and
> repeat as necessary.
>
> The dough becomes more elastic and easier to handle with each stretch.
>
> John

At 02:54 AM 5/27/2004, Roy wrote:
>...

>However during the proofing stage the pH tends to rise gradually


I would think the pH goes down during SD fermentation - or what you call
proofing?

Samartha

"Samartha" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.1085805266.14160.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.c=
om...

> I would think the pH goes down during SD fermentation - or what you =
call=20
> proofing?

- or what would you call pH?

One can assume things go from sooner to later, right?